Haaretz - The beautiful life without Arafat

[Englander]

Last update - 09:30 09/10/2005

By Gideon Levy

Time flies when you're having fun, as the saying goes. Next month marks one year since the death of Yasser Arafat, and the masses will not fill the squares in Ramallah in memorial assemblies; Bill Clinton and other world leaders will not come to inaugurate a center in his name. However, the anniversary of his death serves as an opportunity to raise questions about Israel's behavior before and after his death.

The year since Arafat's death has not been beautiful as they promised us, and life here without him has not been better than our life with him. Arafat served as an excellent excuse for Israel to continue the occupation and almost the only significant change that has occurred since his passing is the loss of this excuse.

The past year was the year of disengagement. Not a "partitioning of the land" and not anything approaching this. Not even progress toward peace, but merely a year in which a unilateral arrangement was imposed on the Palestinians that completely disregards their needs. There was no letup in the occupation during this year. Gaza remains imprisoned; in the West Bank, the restrictions on Palestinian life continue in their full cruelty, and are even intensifying due to the separation fence. All this, despite the fact that the demonization of Arafat by Israeli leaders in his waning days could have led one to assume that the largest obstacle to peace had disappeared when he died.

>snip

There are not many who long for Arafat. The Palestinians blame him for not doing enough to extricate them from their miserable lives, and in the eyes of Israelis he became Satan long ago. Palestinians and Israelis forget the long path he traveled from non-recognition of Israel to the historic crossing of the Rubicon in establishing relations with it. In a certain sense, it was Israel that missed a chance with Arafat, perhaps the only leader who had the power to reach a compromise with Israel.

History will judge the man both by his success in consolidating the Palestinian people and raising their case to the top of the international agenda, as well as the cruel violence and corruption for which he was responsible. But a year after his death, one can hardly say a new dawn has risen over the Middle East. A civil war threatens the Palestinian people (and this is also bad news for Israel), a war that Arafat did everything to prevent and apparently would not have erupted in his day. And Israel is not doing a thing to conduct negotiations with his successor on a just accord that would ensure an end to violence. It turns out that contrary to the promises, Arafat's death did not bequeath life to anyone.

More at;
Haaretz

[SammyBlue]

1. Joke told to me by an Isreali friend

Yassar Arafat had a dream one night. In it, Allah appeared before him and said:

"Yassar, you've done so much in my name. . .so much good for your people. As a result, I will grant you the answer to one question."

Yassar thought for a few minutes then asked:

"On what day will I die?"

"Oh, Yassar, you will die soon on a Jewish holiday."

"So I will die on Passover?"

"No, not Passover."

"Then it's Yom Kippur?"

"No, I don't believe you will die on Yom Kippur either."

"Then, please, Allah, what Jewish holiday will I die on?"

"Yassar, the day you die, it will be a Jewish holiday."

Think about it for a second. It took me about thirty seconds to understand.

[pelsar]

2. dont you just love the hipocrasy.....

unilateral arrangement was imposed on the Palestinians that completely disregards their needs.

i seem not to understand something here....i always thought the killing of the israelis in gaza was because they wanted them to go...now that they gone and there is no israeli presence in gaza..now that they have access to egypt (provided the egyptians agree, which has nothing to do with israel)

This NOT what they wanted?....

anything..anything will do to blame the israelis...no matter how absurd and how hypocritical.....

[manic expression]

8. see post #4

for actual information and truth.

Your post has neither.

[Why Syzygy]

3. They don't have Gaza?

They moved out, didn't they?

Arafat was a totalitarian. No bargains. No Peace. May he rest.

And let the rest of the world learn a lesson.

[Englander]

4. No, they don't 'have' Gaza -

There's no freedom of movement, & Israel controls all the access
points, the borders, water & airspace.

___________________


AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL

7 October 2005

Israel/Occupied Territories: Prolonged closure of the Gaza-Egypt border and arbitrary restrictions to freedom of movement should be lifted

>snip

Since the Israeli army redeployed its troops from inside the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, Israel has imposed a closure on the Rafah crossing. The only exceptions since then have been a one and a half day period on 23-24 September, when the border was opened to allow Palestinians both to leave and return to the Gaza Strip, and a period of a few hours on 3 October, when the border was partially opened to allow Palestinians stranded on the Egyptian side of the border to return to Gaza on the eve of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. Some Palestinians in need of urgent medical care not available in the Gaza Strip may be granted permission by Israel to cross the border into Egypt, but such permits are difficult to obtain.

In the five days immediately following the redeployment of Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip many Palestinians defied the restrictions and crossed into Egypt through openings in the border fence, which were subsequently re-sealed by Palestinian and Egyptian security forces. On 12 September, the final day of its redeployment from the Gaza Strip, the Israeli army issued a military order announcing the end of Israeli military rule in the Gaza Strip (http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=7&clr=1&docid=45427.EN).

The Israeli authorities contend that the redeployment of their troops from the Gaza Strip constitutes the end of Israel's occupation of the Gaza Strip and that consequently Israel is no longer bound by its obligations as an occupying power under international law.

However, Israel continues to control all the entry/exits points into the Gaza Strip, including its border crossing with Egypt, its territorial waters and its airspace. The movement of every Palestinian, as well as the movement of any visitors, in and out of the Gaza Strip remains subject to permission being granted by the Israeli authorities.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150512005?open&of=ENG-ISR

[TomClash]

5. How dare you

challenge the right-wing Israeli-American weltanschauung by telling the truth!

This is verboten in America.

[Englander]

54. Hey!

Are you impugning my integrity?? I'm outraged!! Outraged, I say!!

;)

(not really).

[pelsar]

6. talk to the egyptians....

which were subsequently re-sealed by Palestinian and Egyptian security forces

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150512005?op.

i know...those knee jerk reactions to blame israel...just dont go away ...maybe it was EGYPT that closed it?)

heres a geography lesson:
gaza borders on Egypt....not just israel. Egypt is a country that does what it wants with its borders. If Egypt wants to open up a border to Gaza, they can...its quite simple.

if the gazans are closed in...try looking south...(oops blame the arabs?)

[manic expression]

7. You're missing something

and it shows.

ISRAEL IS CONTROLLING THE BORDER TO EGYPT. That means they retain control of the borders on their side. It is like what America is doing on the American-Mexican border, only backwards.

[pelsar]

9. nope...

your simply wrong....the area where the Mediterranean sea meets gaza and egypt is completly, 100% under Egyptian/palestenain control

BLAME the Egyptians if the palesetenains cant go to Egypt (kinda of tough isnt it....)

[manic expression]

10. It sucks when you try to defy reality

the problem is that it doesn't work:

"However, Israel continues to control all the entry/exits points into the Gaza Strip, including its border crossing with Egypt, its territorial waters and its airspace. The movement of every Palestinian, as well as the movement of any visitors, in and out of the Gaza Strip remains subject to permission being granted by the Israeli authorities."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE150512005?op...

How does it feel to be completely wrong?

[newyorican]

11. ...

:popcorn:

[barb162]

12. how old is that link? Can't get into it. It may be so outdated

it is incorrect factually.

[newyorican]

13. Articles are moved rather quickly there...

Israel/Occupied Territories: Prolonged closure of the Gaza-Egypt border and arbitrary restrictions to freedom of movement should be lifted

AI Index: MDE 15/051/2005 (Public)
News Service No: 269
7 October 2005

The Israeli authorities contend that the redeployment of their troops from the Gaza Strip constitutes the end of Israel's occupation of the Gaza Strip and that consequently Israel is no longer bound by its obligations as an occupying power under international law.

However, Israel continues to control all the entry/exits points into the Gaza Strip, including its border crossing with Egypt, its territorial waters and its airspace. The movement of every Palestinian, as well as the movement of any visitors, in and out of the Gaza Strip remains subject to permission being granted by the Israeli authorities.

At present, Israel refuses to allow the Rafah crossing to reopen and is seeking to impose a new arrangement whereby Palestinians leaving or returning to the Gaza Strip must pass through the Israeli Kerem Shalom Israeli army base inside Israel, near the south-eastern tip of the Gaza Strip. This would require Palestinians to go to the Gaza side of the Rafah crossing and then travel from there by special bus eastward along the Gaza-Egypt border into Israel to the Kerem Shalom Israeli army base. After being checked there by Israeli soldiers, they would be returned by special bus to the Rafah crossing, where those who had received Israeli permission could then cross through the border point from the Gaza Strip into Egypt. Both the Palestinian Authority (PA) and the Egyptian government are opposed to this Israeli requirement. While the deadlock continues Israel refuses to allow the Rafah crossing to reopen and the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip are thereby prevented from leaving and/or returning to the Gaza Strip. As a result many Palestinians are denied adequate medical care, education and employment opportunities, and contacts with their families.

On Edit: Added bold emphasis for those that don't want to admit to this sad little deception. Let the excuses and rationalizations begin.

[barb162]

14. PA: Rafiah Crossing to Open on Tuesday

PA: Rafiah Crossing to Open on Tuesday
01:55 Oct 11, '05 / 8 Tishrei 5766


(IsraelNN.com) Palestinian Authority (PA) sources announced on Monday night that the Rafiah border crossing would be reopening on Tuesday, permitting thousands of PA residents to cross into Egypt and return home to Gaza. They added this will be especially vital for those making the Mecca pilgrimage during Ramadan.

International mediator James Wolfensohn met with Defense Ministry official Amos Gilad and the PA’s Dr. Saeb Erekat on Monday in another effort to solve the outstanding differences regarding the border crossings.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=91161#

---------------------------

I understand there are some customs and security issues to be worked out also (read that somewhere).

[manic expression]

15. ...

"The main areas of disagreement involve re-opening the border between Egypt and the Gaza Strip, possible future Israeli troop withdrawals from Palestinian towns in the West Bank and the release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli detention.

Progress has been achieved in recent days on other issues, with Israel re-opening the main crossing point for cargo traffic with the Gaza Strip on Sunday after a three-week closure.

The Karni crossing, near Gaza City, was shut as part of a general closure of the West Bank and Gaza Strip after Palestinian militants fired dozens of rockets into Israel.

Palestinians said shops in Gaza had run short of some food products because of the closure. Other crossing points between Israel and Gaza remain closed."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4325922.stm

This is dated October 10 (which is today), and story is about the postponement of talks.

[manic expression]

16. More:

"...The two sides have made progress on other Palestinian demands in recent days, with a compromise possibly shaping up on reopening Gaza's border with Egypt...."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5334179,00.html

Another source:
" A planned Israeli-Palestinian summit has been shelved amid disputes about the future of Gaza's border crossing with Egypt.

Mahmoud Abbas, the President of the Palestinian Authority (PA), and Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Prime Minister, cancelled plans to meet today after preliminary contacts failed to produce the concessions Mr Abbas had been seeking...."
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article318610.ece
(that was 3 hours ago, according to Google)

[newyorican]

20. How does it feel to be completely wrong?

I'm reminded of the Happy Days episode when the Fonz simply could not admit to being wrong. (Showing my age, I think)

[barb162]

17. Egypt controls its own borders too.

Beside that, I am not quite sure what this thread is really about (and sorry for ending that in a preposition). Anyway, Egypt is building its new Gaza crossing "gate" or whatever it's called and I thought it would be completed in a few months.

There is an interesting point here about sovereignty and any nation can close its borders if it wants. When the Israelis let go of its settled area of Gaza, the Palestinians were crossing the Egypt border in a rather boisterous fashion (fence breaks, tunnels) and after a few days Egypt closed it and stationed some army personnel there to control the exuberance. Israel and Egypt have a deal on security and Egypt is trying to work with both sides.

Side issue: The USA/ Mexico border ...the USA has the complete right to restrict non-nationals from entering the country. So does every other country. Take a look at Mexico's immigration laws for a real eye-opener on what it can do in regard to illegal entry into Mexico. Every country has the right to protect its own borders from illegal entry and restrict access into its country.

[newyorican]

18. The topic is quite simple...

Those that celebrated the passing of Arafat as a turning point were either short-sighted or full of shit. The energy and vitriol that was expended demonizing Arafat has now been turned towards Abbas and Palestinians in general in a somewhat less focused manner. The terrible things that were blamed on Arafat have continued to occur with much less stability in the Palestinian power structure.

As a sub-topic, the repeated assertion that Israel has left Gaza and what happens there is up to the Palestians has been thoroughly debunked. Israel still has a presence in Gaza controlling the border crossings (yes, even the border with Egypt), airspace and seaboard.

[barb162]

22. I agree somewhat on the first paragraph

but on the second, not so much. The Gaza area is not part of a sovereign state... the Palestinians have never declared a nation for various reasons, etc. The Palestinians live as a "non-nation" but airspace, borders, etc represent issues of a nation and its sovereignty. (If Israel, Egypt, France, Morocco, etc., fly planes over the Gaza area, are they violating the airspace of a sovereign nation? No)

But even if Palestinians in the Gaza area declared a state, surrounding countries could still totally restrict access into their own sovereign states. Egypt as a sovereign state could choose to have zero access into its land from Gaza, to shut its border completely, like the Chinese and South Koreans do with North Korea.

[manic expression]

19. No

Israel can control its side of the border. It has done so, much to the injury of the Palestinian people. The key here is that Israel is actively trying to limit the freedom of movement that Palestinians have.

Every country also has the right to restrict access the OTHER way around, as Israel is unjustly doing to Palestinians. They control the ENTIRE BORDER, and they are using that power to further oppress Palestinians.

The concept is not hard to understand: Israel is controlling its side of the border of Gaza. Countries can do that. It is another injustice placed upon the people of Palestine.

[pelsar]

21. reality....

lets try again.....Amnesty...that little link of yours....is not referring to the western part of the gaza/egyptian border.....they're words arent the holy of holies (sorry guys...thats just the way it is)

ready for this..I actually live out here....and actually have more information, more media outlets. IDF soliders in the south to talk to ....


the concept is not hard to understand: ...no IDF on the western part...conclusion?....shucks that means the PA and Egypt have closed their border


and is this a joke:
"The concept is not hard to understand: Israel is controlling its side of the border of Gaza. Countries can do that. It is another injustice placed upon the people of Palestine"

because we dont let palestenains into israel....were placing an injustice upon them?...i always like reading stuff like that, looking at all the countries all over the world with their border controls etc...so guess they're also placing an injustice on the palestenains with their quotas etc?...yes?

this may be news but: the palesteanians in gaza declared war when they shot over 40 missles at israeli towns....that means they dont get to walk around israeli cities....nor enter israeli territory... its the basics for nation states

[barb162]

23. I remember that story a few weeks ago; both the PA and Egypt

shut that border

[Behind the Aegis]

25. I think you are talking about this...

...Egypt and PA turn Gaza in to a large prison....

[barb162]

27. Troops seal Gaza-Egyptian border

(Now come on! IT'S NOT A PRISON) This story was actually of the type I was thinking about as it clearly states "Palestinian security forces have sealed Gaza's border with Egypt," points out Israeli troops aren't there, and the people want an "open" border there, etc.



'Troops seal Gaza-Egyptian border

Gaps in the Gaza-Egypt border have been blocked

Palestinian security forces have sealed Gaza's border with Egypt, which thousands have crossed illegally in the past week.
"The chaos that existed here is over," Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said after touring the area on Sunday.

The Israeli troops that had secured the border withdrew on Monday, prompting Palestinians to stream into Egypt.

snip

"We want to come and go freely."

On Saturday Palestinian border troops clashed with Gazans attempting to cross into Egypt."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4258122.stm

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

32. Do you live there?

You state: "So you live in the Gaza Strip, with the Palestinians? No? Then shut up."

[manic expression]

34. Does s/he?

If s/he doesn't live in Gaza, with the Palestinians, seeing what they go through, then her/his immediate perspective is JUST as intimate as mine, and not a bit more.

[barb162]

35. Living next door is more intimate; one see things every day

that others don't see.

[manic expression]

37. BS

Hey, my friend lives in Los Angeles, so his/her opinion on happenings in El Salvador is more intimate than mine?

Give me a break. S/he does not see the situation at hand firsthand. Her/his opinion is no more intimate than mine. Period.

Also, mere proximity does not equal accuracy. Many people have lived through things I have not and have perhaps the most warped views on them. Even IF someone sees a situation completely firsthand, no amount of such experience can change someone from being wrong.

[barb162]

40. But LA is not "next door" to El Salvador.

And a New York person's opinion is not more valid than an Iowan on Los Angeles, unless one happens to travel there way more than the other. But if you live in California, especially near LA, I'd like to hear what you have to say about LA (and take it with a grain of salt). I understand proximity doesn't equal accuracy, but a lot of the time, too, proximity can foster a lot of insight.

[manic expression]

43. Exactly

"And a New York person's opinion is not more valid than an Iowan on Los Angeles, unless one happens to travel there way more than the other."

S/he does not live in Palestine at all, and Israel is a completely different world. Do you really think that what one sees in Israel is what one sees in Palestine? That is a lot like the connection between the US and Iraq: the occupied state and the country which is occupying it. Americans can actually see the effects of such a disgusting war, but they are unable to see much more (we're obviously talking about REAL experience).

(For your information, the largest concentration of El Salvadorenos outside of San Salvador (the capital of El Salvador) is...LA. I chose this because although one may see some effects of the policies in El Salvador, one can still not see the realities of US actions there (for instance), and therefore the view is not so much different from someone on the east coast)

Another thing is that proximity does not foster insight when someone cuts themself off from reality. There are people who lived through segregation and who still retain their bigoted views. Many veterans of Vietnam still have the delusional view that America was justified, and that it was a worthy cause.

There are examples of people seeing the truth through direct experience, but there are many more examples of the opposite happening through the same exposure.

[barb162]

36. This forum is here for us to express our opinions, isn't it,

whether we live in Gaza or Israel or elsewhere. At least that is my understanding. When you take a look at the main forums, people are expressing their opinions every day, thousands of opinions, on Iraq and other countries and I bet most of us DUers have never been to Iraq or the other countries. I never have been there or to Gaza or to Israel. If discussion is limited only to those who have actually been to these places, I doubt there will be very much discussion on DU about Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel or Gaza or....

This is about exchanging opinions and views, and it is hoped, learning and understanding. And if we get really lucky, some enlightenment.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

42. Yeah, I am serious

because you wrote a few posts above "So you live in the Gaza Strip, with the Palestinians? No? Then shut up."

That's a pretty direct statement that the other poster shouldn't express his opinion. Maybe that poster has fairly frequent contact with Palestinians and has worthwhile commentary.

[manic expression]

44. You are blind to one big thing

His/her opinion WAS THAT MY OPINION WAS LESS RELEVANT THAN HIS/HER'S. THAT was what I was arguing against. I might say that someone who has lived WITH the Palestinians IN Palestine, WHERE these things are ACTUALLY HAPPENING, MIGHT have a valid view based on their experiences.

Maybe I've had frequent contact with Indians where I live (as an example), but that does not mean that my opinion on India is automatically more relevant than your's or someone else's. I may be 100% correct, but mere experience does not provide the complete basis for this: the truth does.

[barb162]

48. My eyesight is pretty damned good

[barb162]

24. No?

I think we are splitting hairs, aren't we? For sake of argument, if Egypt decides to build a 30 foot wall that's ten feet thick with no border crossing,is it causing another injustice to the people in Gaza?

Now I know Egypt will not do that, but I do think it will exercise customs and security screenings, like almost all countries do these days. No one should expect unrestricted access these days into places where they are not citizens and no one should call that injustice.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

31. I think there is security concern and that results in the

protections that Israel uses. I also think the Egypt border problem will work itself out somewhat when Egypt completes its new border crossing.You may find in the end that Egypt won't be allowing as free an access as the Gazans will want.

Israel and Egypt have a right to security, to control their borders, etc., whether others like it or whether they think it is unjust. That's just the way it is and I think that is real.

[manic expression]

33. It is something that does not concern

Israel. Egypt will probably not limit border travel nearly as much as Israel is. Furthermore, Israel is treating Gaza as its own land in controlling the borders (not to mention airspace and coasts), and that is wrong.

Whenever Israel does not have its iron-fist on the border crossings, the rate increases. This will be more of the norm if Israel actually gives the Palestinians a shred of respect. Also, shops in Gaza were running out of supplies for awhile, which would NEVER happen had Palestine and Egypt had control of the borders.

Israel does not have a right to limit Palestinians' freedom of travel, which it is doing. Egypt has little to do with this.

[barb162]

38. I think this is going to work itself out.

Israel reopens passage on Gaza border

www.chinaview.cn 2005-10-10 21:48:58

GAZA, Oct. 10 (Xinhuanet) -- Palestinian security officials said on Monday that the Israeli army re-opened the Sofa Crossing on the border between southeastern Gaza and Israel after an over three-week shutdown.

Palestinian Crossings chief Salim Abu Safeya told reporters that the Israeli decision to reopen the crossing came after ajoint meeting between the two sides.

Praising the meeting as fruitful and friendly, Abu Safeya said Israel promised to reopen most passages and crossings on the Gaza-Israel border.

On Sunday, the Israeli army reopened the Karni Crossing on the border between eastern Gaza and Israel. Karni is the biggest border crossing for Gaza exports and imports. Enditem

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2005-10/10/content_3602513.htm
-------------
Israel closed the borders after the unprovoked Hamas action of shooting 30 + rockets into Israel. I think most countries would take the exact same action if multiple rockets flew over and hit into their country.

[manic expression]

41. They opened something

that should have been opened for a very long time prior to this. I would like to take this opportunity to remind you that while Israel has opened the borders on this occassion, it still undeniably mantains unjustified control over the borders, not to mention airspace and coastlines; Israel is practicing this control right now, and even if they let people through they are subject to ridiculous practices (these have been everyday happenings in Palestine for a very long time). They will no doubt use this power to further injure Palestinians at will, as they have so recently.

If you actually look at the situation, Israel provokes attacks through terrible actions, which they use to further justify encroaching on Palestinians' rights and murdering people. The Hamas action was anything but unprovoked, and I have around 60 years of history to back it up.

You forget that "most countries" are not occupying and oppressing an entire people.

[barb162]

45. Even the PA considers that Hamas action unprovoked

There was no evidence that Israel did a damned thing. Hamas screwed up royally.

What country can you cite that would allow rocket attacks on it, unprovoked aggression, and not close its borders to those doing the attacks?

Security is high at border crossings because of numerous cases of arms smuggling and attacks; the security can be seen as justified.

Disputed territories does not equal occupied territories

[newyorican]

46. You are entitled to your own opinion...

but not your own facts.

There is no dispute, the WB and Gaza are still occupied. They will remain so until the Palestinians have full control over the land, air and sea. That includes control over their side of the borders in case there is still interest in furthering that fallacious argument.

What happening now is the GOI has chopped the arms and legs from the torso, tossed it into the water and tsk over the inability to tread water.

[barb162]

47. We all are entitled to our own opinions

And it seems we have a disagreement on facts. And I don't agree with your opinions and imagery set forth in your post

[pelsar]

50. another excuse...

keep them coming...anything to blame israel anything to keep the palestenains from being responsable.....

gaza on the south...touches egypt....no IDF presesence...sand and barb wire fence (no landmines) seperate egypt from gaza.....

egypts territorial waters touch gazas...

OMG....the palestenains can walk over to egypt if they like..or take a boat....as long as the egyptians let them

Damn that geography......your right forget it...lets go back to the usual Israel controls the palestenians...its much better for us....those pesky geographical facts on the ground just get in the way

[barb162]

63. You might be interested in this

re Gaza airspace, coastlines, etc. from a thread started by Englander within the last day.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453654.0444444446.html

[Englander]

64. Yeah, it's from this thread.

pelsar came up with the article, which is fake. See my other posts
about the Moonie-owned World Tribune, for more detail.

Sorry to disappoint you, but this is still the case;

".... The Israeli authorities contend that the redeployment of their troops from the Gaza Strip constitutes the end of Israel's occupation of the Gaza Strip and that consequently Israel is no longer bound by its obligations as an occupying power under international law.

However, Israel continues to control all the entry/exits points into the Gaza Strip, including its border crossing with Egypt, its territorial waters and its airspace. The movement of every Palestinian, as well as the movement of any visitors, in and out of the Gaza Strip remains subject to permission being granted by the Israeli authorities."

[barb162]

65. Well I am sorry to disappoint you also, but it may be that things are

changing quickly, not that I agree with the opinion that PA isn't controlling Gaza. There aren't Egyptian or Israseli troops there.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/10/08/international/i111753D66.DTL

Agreement Near for Gaza Border Security
By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer

Saturday, October 8, 2005

(10-08) 11:17 PDT JERUSALEM, Israel (AP) --


Israel and the Palestinians were moving toward agreement on new security arrangements for Gaza's border with Egypt, officials from both sides said Saturday, a deal that could allow Palestinian residents of the coastal strip relatively free movement for the first time.
snip
----------------------
http://www.jnewswire.com/library/article.php?articleid=794
Thursday, October 13, 2005 21:03 IST
JNW HEADLINE NEWS

Gaza reverting to Egyptian control
By Ryan Jones

October 11th, 2005

snip
The Egyptians are now involved “in every facet of the in Gaza,” a PA source told Middle East Newsline. “It is correct to say that major decisions are not taken without Egypt's approval.”
snip

[pelsar]

68. thread from newyorican.

not mine....

[pelsar]

26. oops....egypt and palestenains....

On Tuesday, the Palestinian Authority and Egypt agreed to open the border for just 24 hours to allow the hundreds of Palestinians to cross for a pilgrimage to Mecca during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan. Mecca is the holiest city of Islam

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/634127.html

gosh darn i dont see where israel agree or disagreed to anything there.....OMG..its true..the palesteanins and the egyptians have their own border...and and no matter how hard we try israel is not involved (though I 'm sure the mossad has planted it agents and super secret microphones and camera all along the border....probably with tiny missles as well)

sorry dude...its a new day...the palestenians now have a responsability...and maybe their cheerleaders would like to go to gaza and help out with civil rights.....or is that tooooo dangerous now that israel is gone

[manic expression]

30. oops is quite right...

"Under these circumstances, Israel in effect retains control over Gaza's borders. But it did not object when the Palestinians earlier this week announced plans to open Rafah for two days starting Friday, for the most part to allow for the passage of people seeking medical treatment, or studying or residing abroad."
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1152225

(funny how you left this little tidbit out)
"Israel had closed the Rafah crossing between Gaza and Egypt before withdrawing from the area last month, and the sides have yet to reach an agreement on how to operate the border. Israel wants to monitor security-related issues at the crossing, but the Palestinians want to have full control over the border."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5336324,00.html

So, actually, Israel controls the border. The Palestinians can announce things until they're blue in the face, but Israel "retains control over Gaza's borders." Translation: they limit Palestinian's freedom of movement.

Thanks for playing....

[pelsar]

49. you dont seem to understand the border...

but then since all you know is what you read on the internet and what you want to believe...that does limit ones knowledge.

lets try again....all your links refer to a single border crossing....rafah...correct?.........your links refer to what israel wants....nor do they refer to Egypt.

If egypt decides to open the barb wire fence along the border...its open...rafah is hardly the only single physical place they can cross.

Is Egypt under israeli rule?...didnt think so....its their border..not israels...or are you claiming that egypt now does israels bidding?

Egypt for what ever the reason is keeping its border closed....blame them

oh yes, the reason the palestenians dont just walk over the sand dunes and cross the barb wire fence (not very difficult, its a single strand)..is the that egytians have a "shoot to kill" policy

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

53. will this help?

[pelsar]

55. a description..

northwest of rafah for about 6 kilometers was part of the israeli settlements. The border area hence was not considered particulary dangerous and consisted of israeli and egyptian look out towers (the egyptians were always higher than the israelis). There was a narrow asphalt road that ran parralled to the border between the sand dunes. the actual border was a simply chain linked fence. The far end where the Mediterranean sea meets the borders had a small israeli base...now empty. The fence stops at the waters edge.

southeast of rafah the border is far more tight...this is where part of the wall is and more israeli towers and bases were...though i am not up to date on that section.

so if a palestenian wants to walk over to egypt all he has to do is walk along the beach until he reaches the single chain link fence. ...get his feet wet and walk around it......and wait until the egyptians open fire.

that minor aspect of the egyptian policy is 100% egyptian....no IDF soldiers in sight.

so much for "israeli controlled,...prison gaza. The gatekeepers are egyptian.

[Andromeda]

61. Thanks, BTA...

great map!

[manic expression]

56. You don't seem to understand much of anything

Israel has been enforcing its own policies on the border, not to mention outright imposing control over it. This is obvious.

"Israel had closed the {Rafah} crossing given a lack of accord over how to stop arms-smuggling to Palestinian militants. Asked about the opening, a spokeswoman for Israel's Defense Ministry said it assented to the move 'for two days for humanitarian reasons'."
http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-09-23T095035Z_01_SCH335412_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-GAZA-BORDER.xml&archived=False

Understand?

Israel controls the borders, not to mention the coasts and airspace. That is unjustified control, that is wrong.

[pelsar]

57. geography...

and how much of the border is rafah?...hint...its not the whole border..its about 500yards....the border itself is about 10km.

so back to you....why are the egyptians agreeing to "israels demands".......that link totally ignored the Egyptians...and since the border is an palestenain/egytian border and since the egyptians dont really listen to the what israel needs...the question that goes unanswered by you...is where are the egyptians here?

and if they want an open border to the palestenians why dont they just "open the fence"...
(there is no idf presence NW of rafah)

the issue is the "egyptian part"

[newyorican]

58. Wow...must be PFM. The IDF magically appear at Rafah in your #57...

pelsar (1000+ posts) Mon Oct-10-05 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. dont you just love the hipocrasy.....

i seem not to understand something here....i always thought the killing of the israelis in gaza was because they wanted them to go...now that they gone and there is no israeli presence in gaza..now that they have access to egypt (provided the egyptians agree, which has nothing to do with israel)

pelsar (1000+ posts) Wed Oct-12-05 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. another excuse...

gaza on the south...touches egypt....no IDF presesence...sand and barb wire fence (no landmines) seperate egypt from gaza.....

egypts territorial waters touch gazas...

OMG....the palestenains can walk over to egypt if they like..or take a boat....as long as the egyptians let them

pelsar (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-11-05 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. oops....egypt and palestenains....

gosh darn i dont see where israel agree or disagreed to anything there.....OMG..its true..the palesteanins and the egyptians have their own border...and and no matter how hard we try israel is not involved (though I 'm sure the mossad has planted it agents and super secret microphones and camera all along the border....probably with tiny missles as well)

Above you have stated unequivocally, that the Israelis and the IDF have no presence in Gaza.

We will pass on the silliness of suggestions that the border be opened in places other than established border crossings (Out in the desert wilderness? On the Mediterranean? Uncontrolled migration? Disingenuous and absurd, but par for the course).

Now we will move on to your, seemingly accidental, collision with reality:

pelsar (1000+ posts) Wed Oct-12-05 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. geography...

and if they want an open border to the palestenians why dont they just "open the fence"...
(there is no idf presence NW of rafah)

Side note (or back hand if you will): As to your repeated dire warnings of what Egyptians do to border jumpers, at least they will wait until the border is violated, unlike the snipers posted along the American funded, Israeli built barrier.

Back to the main point: Congratulations. It took you 57 posts and a complete self-contradiction to prove your previous statements false and to admit that the IDF are controlling the established border crossing in Rafah. Interesting, how the IDF magically appears in Rafah at post 57. Must be those wiley Mossad tricksters. They're always up to something, I hear.

[pelsar]

59. actually its not clear....

i've been listening to the news all day....and talking to several soldiers in the area...its not clear "what that presence" actually is...some clerks? or a force or a phone call.....my 57 is an acknowledgement that things have changed (as they do constantly) and its no longer clear what the situation is


That said Egypt now controls both sides of the 14-kilometer border with the Gaza Strip.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453654.0444444446.html...


and the double standard that is so familiar: palestenains going to egypt arent going to there to kill people....those that hope the fence into israel...some are (hard to tell, since they dont wear uniforms)...

its hardly "out in the wilderness"....there are structures all along the border where the egyptians live and guard...i guess they dont want to

[Englander]

60. The 'news article' you've posted there -

It's fake, it's not a real story, & World Tribune is not a real news
outlet.

From the New Yorker, about 'World Tribune';

FIT TO PRINT?
Issue of 2003-09-08
Posted 2003-09-01

>snip

In fact, the World Tribune is not published in the United Kingdom, nor is it, to be precise, a newspaper. It is a Web site produced, more or less as a hobby, in Falls Church, Virginia, and is dedicated to the notion, as its mission statement explains, that “there is a market for news of the world and not just news of the weird.” (Nonetheless, the site includes a prominent feature, Cosmic Tribune, with an extraterrestrial focus, and it links to a Mafia journal called Gang Land News.) Its editor and publisher, Robert Morton, is an assistant managing editor at the Washington Times and a former “corporate editor” for News World Communications, the Times’ owner and the publishing arm of the Unification Church, led by the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. (Morton and his wife, Choon Boon, are themselves followers of the Reverend Moon.) Among the World Tribune’s other recent half-ignored scoops are that Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for last month’s blackout and that a North Korean defector stressed, during a meeting in July with White House officials, the need for a preëmptive military strike against Kim Jong Il.

Morton said last week via e-mail that he founded the site as an experiment, back in 1998, while serving as a media fellow at Stanford’s Hoover Institution, a conservative think tank. “I didn’t expect World Tribune.com to last for more than a few months,” Morton wrote, but now, despite having no dedicated staff (“Everyone involved with World Tribune.com has a day job”), the site receives more than a million page views per month. And, unlike the Washington Times, which has lost at least a billion dollars in its twenty-one-year existence, World Tribune.com, in concert with the subscription-driven weekly intelligence briefing Geostrategy-Direct.com (a partner site), has paid for itself.

The secret of its success seems to involve well-placed informants (“Over the years I have developed an informal, international network of sources and writers I can trust,” Morton said) and an emphasis on immediacy. Although Morton said, “We emphasize newspaper standards to counter the half-baked, unfiltered content on some online sites,” World Tribune.com more fairly qualifies as something between a newspaper and a rumor-mongering blog. Call it “blews.” In this sense, it is part of a loose network of mostly conservative sites—WorldNetDaily, Dr. Koontz’s National Security Message Board, debka File (produced by a pair of Jerusalem-based journalists thought to have moles in Israeli intelligence)—whose dispatches sometimes serve as the journalistic equivalent of trial balloons: a story may not be based on knowable facts, but it nevertheless may occasionally turn out to be right. (Much of the time, of course, it more closely resembles a Bat Boy update in the Weekly World News.)

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/?030908ta_talk_mcgrath

[pelsar]

62. didnt know...but not surprising given "their scoop"

....its actually not at clear to me what the IDF "presence" is at rafah...if there was a force down there, they would be getting shot it (its an everyday thing)..there is virtually no details anywhere....nor in our tv news

[manic expression]

66. It is pretty clear

"Since the Israeli army redeployed its troops from inside the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, Israel has imposed a closure on the Rafah crossing."

*snip*

"However, Israel continues to control all the entry/exits points into the Gaza Strip, including its border crossing with Egypt, its territorial waters and its airspace. The movement of every Palestinian, as well as the movement of any visitors, in and out of the Gaza Strip remains subject to permission being granted by the Israeli authorities."
http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/document.do?id=ENGMDE150512005

Wow, what a surprise: "your" news isn't reporting the truth.

And by the way, IDF gets shot at because THEY ARE OCCUPYING AND OPPRESSING AN ENTIRE PEOPLE. What do you expect? When you steal Palestinian land and murder their people, expect for people to fight back. That is justified. IDF is more than unjustified.

[pelsar]

67. article is out of date... here i'll update you.....

Nearby, a Palestinian teenager from the Gaza side of this poor border town emerged from a bushy trail that stretches across the buffer of clumsy barbed wire fences and guard posts. Then the 14-year-old, Salama, sneaked across the porous frontier, hauling a plastic bag.

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=252163&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__africa/


so you see....the egyptians have actually decided to keep "parts open"....as they see fit. if they want, they can do more...or they can do less....

The egyptians have just as much say in terms of closing or not closing off gaza.....

time to break the "blame israel" habit..

[manic expression]

69. October 7th is not out of date...

especially when no changes have been made to Israeli policy. Nice try.

Egypt can control things coming into their country. Israel HAS NO RIGHT to control things going out of Gaza, as it is doing right now.

It was Israel that closed the border completely, cutting off Palestinians and imposing further injustice upon them, not Egypt.

Time to break the "deny the truth" habit.

[pelsar]

70. ignoring the above article?

always nice to ignore what one doesnt want to accept.......makes it easier.

the previous article is precisly what i wrote earlier about...egypt to a certain degree is allowing access...and israel is not present

what part of the above sentence is not understandable?

that translates in to Egypt deciding to open or close its borders with gaza and egypt has decided on a passive version of "open borders"

it may ruin your "israel controls the borders mantra"....but those are the facts on the ground

[Lithos]

52. Notice

Please remember to comment on the message, not the messenger. This includes calling people out, or referring to them in disparaging ways.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator

[Lithos]

71. Locking

The dialogue has shifted from the original post to a conversation that is essentially repeating itself ad nauseum with plenty of personal innuendo. Basically, this thread has finished its usefulness.

Lithos
I/P Forum Moderator