Why don't Russian-speaking Jews trust Obama?

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"In the past two weeks, in advance of U.S. President Barack Obama's visit to Russia, chapters of the Bible have become hot current events items in the Russian-language media in Israel. This is not necessarily a matter of an increasing link to the Jewish sources, but rather the use of verses found relevant to eroding the American president's legitimacy.

The Torah portion "Noah" has become particularly popular, and especially his son Ham. This Ham - whose name in Russian also means a very crude person - was punished in the Bible by having his skin turn black, with all his descendants doomed to be blacks destined for a life of slavery. Another very popular text lately is a verse from Proverbs: "Under three things the earth trembles, under four it cannot bear up." The first of the heralds of evil, according to the verse, is "a slave who becomes king."

Each of these chapters is important in itself, but the real sparks are created by the connection between the two: Ham the black man who is doomed to eternal slavery and brings suffering to the world when a black slave becomes king - or in this case, ascends the throne of the presidency of the United States.

The large community of Russian-speaking Jews in America is not enthusiastic about the new president either. But here there is an interesting cultural difference. While Russian speakers in Israel proudly proclaim their rejection of political correctness, their colleagues in America have actually internalized what is politically correct. They are far less preoccupied with the color of the president's skin, and focus on his Muslim background. That is considered legitimate."

<snip>

"Last Thursday, at peak viewing hours, Channel 9, the Russian-language Israeli television channel, devoted its weekly tradition program to the story of Noah and his sons Shem, Ham and Yefet. It should be noted that in terms of halakha (Jewish law) ,"Noah" was not the weekly Torah reading that week: The choice to discuss it of all things was deliberate and designed to create a link to current events.

David Kun, one of the channel's important anchors, moderated the program; alongside him sat Rabbi Eliyahu Essas, journalist Alexander Wiesman and famous professors from the Russian-speaking community. The lengthy broadcast began with a series of doleful pictures of slavery, of the type seen at the time on the American TV series "Roots," which was about the history of black slavery. From here the discussion turned to Ham, Noah's son, who was punished by having his skin turn black. "A slave of slaves shall he be to his brothers," said Noah regarding Ham's son Canaan - a punishment for the fact that when Noah became drunk and was rolling around naked in his tent, Ham called his older brothers instead of covering his father's nakedness.

The question that preoccupied the members of the panel who gathered in the Channel 9 studio was whether the black man can overcome this curse; it was mentioned that the curse of Ham was never revoked in the Torah. The discussion also sled to the question of whether there is genetic slavery or only a slave mentality. To illustrate that mentality, they showed the picture in which President Obama is seen talking on the phone with the Israeli prime minister, with his feet on his desk.

Although the speakers were for the most part cautious in their replies, the contexts left a bitter aftertaste of racist provocation. Obama, they said, is a direct product of the trend of political correctness that began in the U.S. in the 1960s. For some reason that didn't sound like a compliment. The impression left by the program, in the final analysis, is a direct line ostensibly connecting Ham, Kunta Kinte of "Roots" and Barack Obama. Toward the end of the discussion one of the participants even mentioned that according to King Solomon, the world will experience major shocks when a slave becomes king, "exactly the situation at which we have arrived today."

more

[pelsar]

1. strange post....

the vast majority of the russians in israel arent religious.....

[azurnoir]

2. That is addressed in the first paragraph n/t

[pelsar]

3. actually i'm with the russians...

i think israel should "dump" america and link up with russia.....they got the oil and bucks..israel has the technology and brain power, not to mention the russian connection wiith its population.....

israel can dump the "democracy in the middle east" and being linked with russia will no longer have to waste resources on playing with the UN etc. No longer will there be the "higher standard".....in fact with russia as an allie, there will no longer be any standard...this will be good for both israel and the PA, since finally we'll be talking the same language.

and i'm serious.....

[azurnoir]

4. I would agree

and have suggested that Israel in fact could ally it self with China as well

BTW how is that so many Russians came to live in Israel?

[pelsar]

5. economics...

about 15 -20 years ago the russian economy fell apart...israel offered them the "fast track" immigration....so all of a sudden if your great great grandad might have been jewish...that was enough for the politicians here.

about 1million came over......did a major restructuring of the economy and social behaviors (got more violent), they were very educated on the whole....


of course the rabbis and their ilk caused lots of trouble.......
________

I prefer russia mainly because of the population here, it will be an easy marriage.....but the best part is, as far as i'm concerned is that the PA/israel war would end quickly. One the PA/Hamas realize that the UN and their western friends are now useless, they will quickly make a settlement knowing that with Russia siding with israel, things will only get worse if they prolong it.

and we no longer have to deal with the hypocrisy of the UN, etc....we can define our morality as we see it, as our population sees it and we can concentrate our fixing our own problems......

[shira]

6. wow, never thought of it that way.

what makes you think russia would be so interested in israel and favor israel over other ME countries - to the extent that the PA, Syria and Iran would cave in and give up their war against israel?

maybe the way israel (with their hi-tech) can work economically with russia in order to tap that enormous oil potential - thereby making russia first rate? if so, interesting. :)

[pelsar]

9. israels worth a lot more...

russia is still in to global influence, power and "world domination".....one little israel is worth a lot more than iran, syria etc....all "loser countries" with little to offer. Israels hi tech, russian speaking community could help turn russia into a real power.....it would also make europe very very nervous

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[martymar64]

50. Your quote is a call to espionage against the US

"i'm sure there's a lot Russia could learn from Israel's insider knowledge of US and UK military capabilities."

Since your profile says that you are in Boston and I assume you are a US citizen, what you are advocating is a high crime against the United States.
What you are doing is flirting with treason in the legal sense, the same crime that they sent Jonathan Pollard to prison for life over.

Maybe the FBI needs to take a close look at you and those you associate with.
I'm not joking about this either. In fact, this is something that needs to be alerted on to the mods.

[shira]

51. lol

[martymar64]

52. Laugh all you want.

I've already alerted on you.

You are a traitor to the United States. Pure and simple.

[shira]

53. sigh - now I'm a traitor to the USA?

you're on a roll now.

do you even take yourself seriously?

[LeftishBrit]

54. Do you seriously think that Shira even has access to state secrets which would interest the Russians

Talk about paranoid!

She was saying that if Israel was in an alliance with Russia, they MIGHT use Israeli knowledge of American secrets. As ditto could happen if Britain got into an alliance with Russia. Neither is really terribly likely to happen.

If someone describes the plot of a spy thriller, does that mean they are spies???

Personally, I think it's pretty unlikely that Israel and Russia will ever join together anyway. Unless it was part of an American-Russian alliance.

[shira]

55. well put, LB.....and I don't see Israel dropping the USA for Russia anytime soon either

maybe Israel will do a lot more big business deals with Russia but that's about it so long as Russia is cozy with Iran and Syria.

and if I knew any state secrets, does anyone think someone pro-Israel like me would want to help out Iran via Russia? :eyes:

[azurnoir]

7. oh it was economics

so all that expulsion stuff was a lie? As to the west being useless you are joking right? you ignore the fact that Russia and Iran have close ties
However if Russia can ante up $5B a year to Israel or even if it can not be my guest there are very few benefits for the US in allying with Israel, it was a cold war holdover and has out lived its usefulness, except to some politician looking for campaign funds

[pelsar]

8. what expulsion stuff?....

the russians weren't expelled from russia...when the USSR collapsed so to did their economy and the restrictions on emigration....

Russian is with iran for a variety of reasons, doesnt mean israel can join in. The US probably wouldnt like it a whole lot.....in fact the US military would get very nervous i would expect......

[azurnoir]

10. Come on Pelsar

so the Russians living in Israel are Gentiles? well according to Halakic Law some of them are is that your point?

[pelsar]

18. the vast majority are jews.....

some aren't.....i had no point, you asked what happened....

[azurnoir]

20. Sorry perhaps I misunderstood

your saying that 100,000+ Jews immigrated from the USSR to Israel for merely economic reasons?

[pelsar]

25. i believe it was more...

about a million....the numbers changed the social fabric...


Azanyan and her family fled the repressive Soviet regime at the tail end of a massive wave of emigration that saw about 1 million Soviet Jews settle in Israel by the mid-1990s. But now she is among the estimated 100,000 who have come back - the strongest sign yet of a startling revival of Jewish life in a country that has one of the worst records of Jewish persecution in history.

"It's absolutely extraordinary how many people are returning," says Lazar, who has been Russia's chief rabbi since 2000.

"When they left, there was no community, no Jewish life. People felt that being Jewish was an historical mistake that happened to their family. Now, they know they can live in Russia as part of a community."

http://www.rense.com/general65/100000formersovietjews.htm

as far as i know it was a combination of failing economy (the russians who came couldnt believe that the supermarkets here were full of food) and jewish identity..though i've never actually researched the subject...

[azurnoir]

26. you actually used Rense as a reference?

hmmmm ok, I guess antisemitism has lost its bite which was my point about Russia
that was a polite paraphrasing of my actual thought

[pelsar]

27. whose rense?

i just picked the first explanation that was written clearly......

[azurnoir]

28. rense is ah generally considered an antisemetic hate site

to the extent that I will admit I did look at the link

eta I would not look at stormfront either for that matter

[LeftishBrit]

30. Rense is one of the bigger and loonier Conspiracy Theory sites...

And like many such sites they are not all that keen on joooooos or 'Zionists'. Or for that matter all that keen on factual accuracy.

They do sometimes quote legit news articles without alteration, but I would still not use them as a reliable source.

[shira]

11. the USA's economic aid to israel goes right back into buying US weapons so losing israel would.....

...hurt the USA economically.

there are some signs that working with the USA is already hurting Israel.

the USA preventing big Israeli sales and profits:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443727242&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

if Israel cuts loose from the USA and is not pumping its aid back into the US economy AND is causing US companies to make less profits due to its own weapons manufacturing, that's a double-whammy against the USA.

israel is already mulling building their own warships and not buying expensive US-made products - which would create Israeli jobs too
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443696709&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

it also looks like Israel can support itself better with its natural gas reserves, bigger than estimated (worth at least $35 billion):
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1098885.html

==============

it's possible israel brings all this up as a bargaining chip against US pressure, who knows? can the USA afford to lose economically if they keep pressuring israel?

==============

like you, i question Russia's ties to Iran. even though Israel can benefit Russia greatly, I don't see this ever happening due to Russia's nasty history with Jews - for example, Germany is much closer to Israel than Russia despite events from 70 years ago. Israel might lose a lot of their jewish american support too.

[azurnoir]

14. Oh yes I am sure the US will never find

another buyer for our weapons, what ever loss would be very short term indeed and natural gas so what?

[shira]

15. see my post #13

[azurnoir]

17. I did Shira and I replied

Israel needs the US far more than the US needs Israel parse it however you like and if thats not true why all the whining about what Obama is "making" or trying to make Israel do?
I have suggested that Israel find new allies we will live without them.

[azurnoir]

16. Yes we can can Israel afford to lose $5billion in aid?

if so then it doesn't really need it the first place, oh and that tech much of it has American connections and if it were being sold or shared in a way that could be considered hostile or detrimental to the US things could get very messy very quick

[shaayecanaan]

21. Fairly stupid logic...

If the US was that concerned about loss of sales for its defence corps it could simply elect to spend its own money on its own military equipment.

Of course, what they should do is use the savings to pay down the national deficit, which is going to cripple the US eventually. A $3 bn saving a year is still a drop in the bucket but it would help nevertheless.

[shira]

31. ok, forget economics - getting much cozier with Russia should be enough of a bargaining chip

Russia would benefit a lot more from Israel than from failed states like Iran and Syria.

[LeftishBrit]

23. There was no expulsion

The Jews certainly suffered from antisemitism in the Soviet Union; but, quite the opposite from being expelled, they - like other Soviet citizens - were often not allowed to leave when they wished to. The term 'refusenik' was originally coined to refer to Soviet Jews who applied to emigrate and were refused.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, such people were able to emigrate. And the economic problems in the former Soviet Union were a motivation for emigration of anyone who had somewhere to go.

[azurnoir]

24. I have seen ProIsraelis here saying that when the politics fit

and "oddly" one one corrected them or tried to parse what happened so shall we say they were strongly encouraged to leave or are you also claiming that it was basically economic

[LeftishBrit]

29. Lots of Jews have been expelled from all kinds of places

Just not the Former Soviet Union in the early 90s.

[azurnoir]

34. there was no USSR in the early '90's

that was not the specific time period I was referring to

[LeftishBrit]

36. That's why I said 'Former Soviet Union'; which is how it was often termed then.

The Soviets, before that, tended to prevent people from moving rather than kick them out (with some exceptions, e.g. Solzhenitsyn).

There have, however, been many expulsions of Jews from many places in history. (And of other ethnic groups too, if it comes to that.)

[azurnoir]

41. I was speaking of the 1970's

the date on this Time article 11/1976


Ever since Moses led the children of Israel out of Egyptian slavery, Jews have been dutybound to redeem their kin from bondage and oppression. In the past two decades Israel and the American Jewish community have concentrated on redeeming Jews in the Soviet Union from discrimination, harassment and, sometimes, outright persecution. LET OUR PEOPLE GO has been the compelling slogan of a massive campaign to win for the U.S.S.R.'s 3 million Jews the right of free emigration. Yielding reluctantly to worldwide pressure, the Kremlin has granted exit permits to about 125,000 Jews since 1970. No other Soviet minority has been allowed to leave the country in any significant numbers.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,914671,00.html

During the 1970s, about 163,000 people immigrated to Israel from the USSR, when the majority of the immigration wave happened actually between the years 1969 to 1973. In comparison with the other immigrants who immigrated to Israel during the same period of time, it is report that the immigrants of the USSR felt a strong belonging, Israeli empathy, and a strong feeling that they would remain in Israel. On the occupational point of view, those immigrants started working in full-time jobs and in jobs similar to the jobs they had in the USSR. But in comparison to the immigrants which arrived from the western developed countries, a smaller percent of the USSR immigrants reported that they are unsatisfied from their jobs. In the aspect of finding a job, only one third from the workers claimed that the state helped them finding work. From the social point of view, the immigrants from the USSR tended to generate more social connections with new immigrants like them than with the locals natives. The USSR immigrants during those years felt that the acquisition of the Hebrew language was important almost as finding housing and employment, and therefore they put it in a high priority. Special Hebrew Language schools (“Ulpan”) were set up by the country and available for free for the immigrants, which helped them acquire the Hebrew language. In the field of the housing most of the immigrants felt that the conditions weren’t worse from the housing conditions they had in the USSR and a small part even felt an improvement from the level of the housing in Israel in comparison to the USSR. When arriving Israel, the immigrants settled in a variety of cities such as: Petah Tikva, Hadera, Nes Tziona, Beer Sheva, Tiberias and Netanya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah_from_the_Soviet_Union_in_the_1970s

[shaayecanaan]

22. I'm all for it...

just imagine, we might be able to agree on something for once.

[Ken Burch]

33. So you've just admitted that you want Israel to crush the Palestinians

And stop trying to be a civilized, democratic nation?

(Even though you know it isn't actually possible for Israel to end the dispute through annihilation?)

In doing so, you've admitted you want Israel to give up any real remaining claim to be "Jewish"-since being Jewish is about holding humane, progressive and democratic values, not turning into thugs.

You've just admitted you're a fascist like we've always thought you were. Nice.

You've also just admitted that, basically, you are a more vicious enemy of Israel than any Hamas militant.

[pelsar]

39. we dont need AI, the UN, etc to define for ourselves what is our morality

And stop trying to be a civilized, democratic nation?

if you'll notice here at the DU as an example...there are lots of reports from the AI, and other citizen groups telling israel how they should and shouldnt act...as per their definition of democracy and "western values.".....

We get those reports, have to defend ourselves in the press and other intl outlets because of our connection to the west. Many are false (jenin,, etc)I also believe that the Palestinians and the western left use those reports to push israel and it citizens in to a dangerous positions. It should be clear by now, with hamas controlling gaza with all its theocratic facist policies that the western lefts "democratic values" take a backseat to nationalism....I don't agree with the philosophy of the "end justifies the means"..as per how i see the western progressive."

The western left is very quiet about how hamas rules....and how they execute their political rivals (can you show me a single public protest about hamas acts, vs protests about israeli actions?.....i didnt think so.) More so by leaving the westbank at this point in time..whos situation is simaler to gaza prepullout, will mimic the gaza...and very probably give us missiles on our major cities and a replay of gaza.

the solution:
we dont need AI, the UN, etc to define for ourselves what is our morality, our western democratic values are as solid as any western country. We're also involved in a low level war with attacks on our civilians in a variety of ways....defending against those attacks requires deadly force at times. (far less then the US, UK, Rusia have used)

Once the pressure of AI etc are off the table, the Palestinians will have to face the fact that they are dealing with israel and only israel. They will no longer have fantasy of some power pushing israel into a weak position where they in fact may lead to its own destruction. With that in mind, everything gets changed....they want to live in peace they will have to talk to the israeli left and get them to back them..to do so, they will have to adjust their methods and way of thinking....
______________
but what i find most interesting in your post is:
is that your claiming that israel can't be jewish or a democratic nation without the approval of other western nations.....sure does stink of a version of colonialism doesn't it?

hard to give up that "white western superiority" over the "other" I think thats the real problem you have with israel leaving the US/Western fold.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. I'm sure supporters of the Chinese govt say that as well...

And as with the Chinese govt, Israel's being expected to respect international humanitarian law, the rules of law, and the Don't Be Such A Bunch of Wankers law that every other state is expected to follow. Do you know why much of that law (or as you call it 'morality') exists? It's because of what was done to the Jews of Europe during WWII...

Western democratic values? What are those? Ones where it's totally acceptable to kill large numbers of Palestinians, try to bring in laws that discriminate against a minority of yr own population, and have a govt that contains extremists, a fascist, and that's led by a RW hardliner? Lovely values those are!

hard to give up that "white western superiority" over the "other"

I've seen you say this a few times, but I don't understand what yr saying. Do you mind explaining it to me so I know what's going on?

[pelsar]

42. but i trust our own Betzalem, machsom watch

and other organizations like our free press, combats for peace as well as justice system to keep our govt in line... I have no problem with Intl law....as long as democracy, civil rights, human rights gets top priority....but I don't see it.

if it was, as per the gaza example, they would be screaming their lungs out and the failure of gaza.....a failed society that had intl support, with whom, as far as i can tell, even its most ardent supporters only "winked" at the PA's "support for a free press, free speech....and obviously hamas has taken that to new levels. The "free gaza ships?.....not even a hint of mentioning the importance of civil rights. I don't know why there is no western encouragement for a intifada III against hamas (iran is an example that the west can infact influence the people.....)

China nor russia have such organizations either to keep their govt in line...israel does.

you ask what are "western democractic values"..... obviously a fluid definition, but i dont believe the UN, AI have the ultimate definition in their books. Democracies, "thank god" are flexible, sometimes to the right, sometimes to the left (though i prefer the left, but the lefts ideas don't always work, whereas sometimes it takes a "rightest" to get things done in the middle east-i.e. Begin for example).

I dont like the colonialist attitude that i find here and other places...as if israel without western pressure will become some kind of third world monstrosity, that massacres the Palestenians freely. As if only because of the western pressure does israel spend so many resources on limiting the damage (you may not agree, but I've seen it) and without it, israel would simply "carpet bomb gaza city-as per the syrian example of 1982).

I may constantly refer to gaza as an example of israeli morality but also of the Palestinians ability to change things....the history of gaza from the pullout to todays quiet is rich with a large variety of israeli attempts both violent and non violent to stop the kassams and mortars. Whereas AI, etc may not agree, with those attempts, it has been shown in israel that over 90% do....and we're all very aware of how 6 years of kassams kept our citizens running for shelters day and night, AI etc doesn't think its as important as we do, that value difference highlights my disagreement with AI. The emphasis of the AI and other intl groups should have been on the gazans to "tell" hamas to stop with the kassams....and when they stopped and only if israel did not stop its attacks, then on israel (but then that would not have been necessary)

The morality of "whats more moral" or how to define "morality while under attack" or the morality of responsibility (i.e. no kassams no IDF attacks), is where i trust betsaelm and other israeli organizations far more than AI, etc. Perhaps there is a "local" flavor that needs to be addressed interms of how to address civil rights etc (much like Mcdonalds localizing its menu-sort of)

like i wrote, israelis morality will not change if AI and UN suddenly disappeared, but the Palestinian leadership or population might act differently.......

[shira]

44. it's not Western values Israel has a problem with - it's the double standards commonly employed

by organizations like AI and HRW.

It's the same problem with the UN and the mainstream media. All these organizations work together and have their own political agenda and axes to grind.

from the Sri Lanka / Israel thread:

"Council members Cuba, Egypt, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, China and others — all states with their own spotty records on human rights — voted for both the resolution condemning Israel and the one praising Sri Lanka. Cuba — that paragon of rights defence — even moved to stop EU amendments to the Sri Lankan resolution that would have at least called on Colombo to permit relief workers into the Tamil war zone and pressured both sides to end their violence."

"Accusing Israel of human rights violations, though, seems to be the foremost reason many countries seek seats on the council — that and using their positions to shield their own human rights records from scrutiny."


---------------------

Add the following in:

1. Racism of low expectations for brown on brown people violence
2. The opportunity for envious 3rd worlders to have a pop at a Western country - especially America or Israel
3. Arab alliances with other 3rd world countries and also 1st world countries in need of oil, who in turn demand protection in UN votes. The result being that Israel is always accused and third world countries that have deals with fellow 3rd world Arab countries (together making up the majority of the council) are practically free to do as they want.

So that's how the UN works....AI and HRW follow from the same script to a large degree (not as blatant as the UN but still heavily biased to minimize criticism at S.Arabia and other violent human rights offenders) and maximize Israeli actions, even if they don't exist (like Jenin) and the media largely lets these orgs get away with it.

it's not Western values Israel really has a problem with.....it's the countries who are the worst human rights offenders pushing the UN, AI, and HRW anti-Israel agenda and the media that complies - because they cannot get away with what they do without the media. And of course, Israel is not treated like any other Western democracy.

HRW Goes to Saudi Arabia to Demonize Israel and Raise Money
http://blog.ngo-monitor.org/other-ngos/human-rights-watch/hrw-goes-to-saudi-arabia-to-demonize-israel-and-raise-money/

and it's the same political agenda driving HRW that drives AI or the UNHRC....a campaign that makes it basically illegal for Israel to defend itself.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. There's not all that much difference between AI and B'Tselem etc...

The main one being that the latter are Israeli, smaller and because of that, have less power than a massive international organisation like AI. The same sort of thing occurs here where there's small domestic human rights groups that focus on issues (mainly indigenous ones), but AI will still criticise the Australian govt for the things dealt with by the domestic human rights groups. These smaller groups don't keep the government in line, what they do is what all human rights groups do and try to speak for those whose human rights are being violated and hope to reach an audience and to try to put pressure on govts to change what they're doing. Sometimes it works (Tonga is a recent example) and sometimes it doesn't (criticism of Israel for Operation Cast Lead)...

I'm still not very clear on what you mean by 'western democratic values'. As far as I can see 'values' vary markedly from place to place, and if yr talking about liberal democracies, then I'd point to the obvious example of a country like the US that uses the death penalty while countries like the UK, Canada, Australia etc don't and are totally opposed to it. Liberal democracies are a political system, not something that has much to do with human rights. An example would be here, which is a liberal democracy, but unlike many other countries doesn't have a human rights act http://www.amnesty.org.au/yourhumanrights/comments/20080/

Anyway, if you trust B'Tselem more than AI, I'd stick with keeping up to date on what they're saying about things and give AI a miss, though by giving them a miss you do end up missing out on finding out what's happening around the world...

on edit: forgot to give you the link to Amnesty Israel. Most of it's gobbledygook to me, but if it's similar to Amnesty Australia, there's a lot of local issues covered there that Amnesty International doesn't cover

http://www.amnesty.org.il/

[pelsar]

46. i trust Betzalam....because....

they're 'home grown"...where as the basic values of AI, Betsalem are similar there are differences. Because its local they've got more info and understand the nuances much better of the environment...know the more sensitive points of the different societies...and a bit more credible here than AI. (for instance Eric Yellin, who lives in sderot, a friend of mine) was an out spoken critic of the gaza invasion....-his view point holds a lot more credibility than than any intl AI report or rep.

More so Betszlem doesnt pretend to be impartial...they are an israeli group protecting israeli values....they have no influence on the Palestinians and hence there is nothing to compare. It gives them more credit.

AI is supposed to impartial....and at best, for reasons of limited resources, they will never be able to in the I/P conflict. Hence the accusations fly (more so, i would not want to be an AI researcher in hamas held territory....self preservation and future good will will take precedent over objective reporting).
_____________

my "western values" was aimed at Ken Burch, who bascially claimed that without western pressure israel will "stop trying to be a civilized, democratic nation?"

israel doesnt depend upon western pressures to be a "western liberal democracy".....its part of its structure (despite the occasional "hiccup" towards the right or religious every so often). but i do believe the the value of human rights and western liberal democracies are integrated, i cant imagine a dictatorship respecting human rights....

and i don't doubt AI importance in the world at large, dont misunderstand me.....as time has gone on and events have transformed in the middle east, i believe that AI and other groups resources would be better spent on gaza and getting an intifada III to take place against hamas (via education etc, not direct incitement). Once gaza is transformed in to "club med" the westbank with its more educated population would be a piece of cake.....

[shira]

47. pelsar, have you found b'tselem to be somewhat problematic?

check this out.
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/ngo_monitor_s_analysis_of_b_tselem_s_annual_report_for_

look especially for the parts where, like PCHR (whose founder Bassem Eid originally worked for b'tselem) they count hamas combatants as civilians - especially if at the time of death the hamas guy was without a weapon.....and like other discredited organizations they greatly minimize hamas use of Palestinian shields.

i can understand WHY these organizations want to paint Israel in the worst colors imaginable - one reason might be to expedite the end of a terrible occupation by any means necessary, even if they have to lie - but the manner in which they go about it is very wrong.

maybe you disagree?

[pelsar]

48. i give B'tselem a little more leeway.....

But all democracies need to have counterweights to their institutions....hence the IDF requires a B'stelem to keep them "in line"

I dont expect everyone to agree on everything....and i'm very aware of their leanings and flexible definitions...but like so many israeli organizations they can't help but to "rub shoulders" with the moderates of the other side of the political fence.....and infact many times we're talking about the same family or friends. These aspects tend to moderate us. Its that aspect that having different opinions, points of view, yet not going to far to the demonization of the "other" that we see here at the DU is far more important to me.

You wont find B'tselem accusing israel of intentionally massacring Palestenians, genocide etc.....you'll find plenty of criticism
this is from their report on the gaza invasion:

it appears that Hamas members systematically breached these
principles. Indeed, it is not exact science and commanders in the field must make
rapid decisions while often lacking full knowledge of the facts. However


Ha’aretz reported that, according to the military’s initial inquiry, soldiers had identified
rocket fire from a building next to the school. They fired mortar shells “at the source of
the fire.” The standard deviation of these shells is a few dozen meters, and in
retrospect, military officers admitted to the journalist that “it was a wrong choice of
means of response” and that the army should have used a precise weapon.


http://www.btselem.org/english/publications/Index.asp

you'll notice that the criticism is directly related to a specific event and though they question the actual weapons used they also mention the decisions that are made in the field, acknowledging that full info is not always available.....its clear that some members of B'tselem have been combat soldiers and have a far better understanding of the environment than AI.....

so i give them far more credit for their publications.

[shira]

49. thanks - that helps

[Ken Burch]

56. You so twisted what I said

What I was saying was that, if Israel actually allied itself with Putin, and thus started using Putin's methods, it would stop being a humane, democratic society. That wasn't Western chauvinism, it was a statement of what Putin is like and what you seemed to be calling for Israel to become like by indicating your preference for Putin.

It would NOT improve anything for Israel to deal with the Palestinians like Putin has dealt with Chechnya.

[pelsar]

59. i just quoted you....but that aside...your explanation is clearer..but...

there is no reason to assume israel would start using russian methods.....The US is allied with Saudi Arabia...i dont see the US justice department putting forth plans to force women to wear potatoe sacks.

Israel doesn't need outside pressure to retain its morality... furthermore israel doesn't need the US (predator strikes anyone) to moralize on what israel can and cannot do (indian reservations?.....). The hypocrisy is glaring....not to mention HRW running to Saudi Arabia for funding.....

The Palestinians as a society, be it hamas or the PA have little internal use for HRW or Amnesty Intl....infact that is were their (HRW, AI) resources should be put, not on israel. It may be more difficult, more challenging, more dangerous...but their gains, will level the playing field and give the Palestinians a better chance at better leadership and ultimately a better life....but until then

the US's and others hypocrisy should be removed from the I/P conflict.

[bemildred]

12. A better question is why Obama should give a shit what "Russian-speaking" Israeli Jews think? nt

[pelsar]

19. hell if i know n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

35. But does he actually give a shit what they think?

I doubt very much what they think would matter in the slightest, any more than what other immigrant communities in other foreign countries (eg Vietnamese Australians) think of him. It's the people who vote for him and whose interests he represents who are the ones whose opinions I'd be thinking he gives a shit about...

[LeftishBrit]

37. Probably not much.

[bemildred]

38. Well duh?

That's what I'm asking, why is this an issue, why is either one expected to give a rats ass what the other one thinks? I mean, there are no stories about how Obama doesn't trust Russian speaking Jews, because nobody would expect that he would have any special affection for them as a class. So why are we treated to this drool about how they don't trust him. Gaining their trust is neither in his interest nor is it his job. As near as I can figure, they have nothing to offer him and nothing to threaten him with.

[Ken Burch]

32. Most of those Russians are only in Israel because they weren't allowed to emigrate to the U.S.

or Canada.

They should have been allowed to move wherever they wanted, not forced to be part of a state they had no real feeling for.

[pelsar]

43. so those russians were forced to got to israel....

not forced to be part of a state they had no real feeling for.

and they were "forced" to join the IDF and its elite units i suppose as well.....

___


you comments are a prime example of the reasons for israels existance.....

[Ken Burch]

57. Well, considering that they were subject(I assume)to conscription

Then they WOULD have been forced to join the IDF.

Would you at least agree that the Israeli government was wrong to try to force the Russians to move to Israel if they wanted to leave Russia at all? Why shouldn't they have been as free to choose the place they moved to as anyone else would be?

[LeftishBrit]

58. How free was 'anyone else'?

Israel has no power to influence other countries' immigration policies.

Israel *allowed* Russian Jews to immigrate; it didn't force them. In fact, quite a large number went to America and some went to Germany and elsewhere.

Many non-Jewish Russians also emigrated at the time, but the difference is that Israel was *required* by the Law of Return to accept any Russian Jew who wished to immigrate, while no one was required to accept Russian non-Jews.

I suppose one could, if one wished, criticize Israel for not taking Russian *non*-Jews who wished to immigrate (in fact, it did take a few); but not for *forcing* Russian Jews to immigrate, or *forcing* other countries not to take them.

[pelsar]

60. so now israel controls the worlds immigration policies?

Israeli government was wrong to try to force the Russians to move to Israel if they wanted to leave Russia at all?

try to get out of this one....you wrote it......how exactly did israel (try to) force those russian jews to move to israel and not the US or germany or india or Ghana.....(this is going to be good, so i promise not to have any coffee about the keyboard)