Israeli troops killed three Palestinians

[shaayecanaan]

'Israeli troops have shot dead three Palestinians, including a 91-year-old man and his teenage grandson, in the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun, a Palestinian medical official says.

"Ibrahim Abdullah Abu Saeed, a caretaker at a a farm, aged 91, and Ismael Walid Abu Audeh, 20, were killed on Sunday by fire from an Israeli tank," Adham Abu Salima, a spokesman for local medical services, told AFP.

Shortly after, the caretaker's 17-year-old grandson, Hossam Khaled Abu Saeed, also died of wounds sustained in the incident, close to the flashpoint Gaza-Israel border, medics said.

A spokeswoman for the Israeli army confirmed the shooting.

Troops "opened fire at a group of terrorists preparing to fire an RPG (rocket-propelled grenade)" at Israel, she told AFP, but she was unable to say how many suspects were hit or give further details.'

http://www.smh.com.au/world/israel-troops-kill-three-palestinians-20100913-1579c.html

*************

Well, whatever one's views of Hamas, you have to applaud them for their willingness to give opportunities to Gaza's senior citizens. Personally I would have thought a 91-year old rheumy-eyed bastard wouldn't be a great deal of use at firing RPGs, but it just goes to show how easily we discount the abilities of our older folk.

[Ken Burch]

1. But...but...that 91-year-old man was still ALIVE before they shot him

He could still have BECOME a terrorist...he looked real grouchy...and he was a caretaker at a farm...he could have quietly complained when the IDF came to dig up the olive trees and give them to the settlers...the old bastard HAD IT COMING, I SAY!

:sarcasm: :eyes:

[shaayecanaan]

2. Maybe he was going to throw his colostomy bag at them...

that's clear evidence of a biological attack, no less. Ready the cruise missiles, I say.

[hayu_lol]

3. Link was furnished with the 'rest of the story.'

Sounds like the entire news item was not read in this case.

[kayecy]

4. Are you guys forgetting these were living people?.....Three killings and the only response is jokes?

[Cherchez la Femme]

46. black humor is usually an attempt

to lessen the despair felt

Is it right? I don't know --I don't especially like them-- but it's fairly universal in the human condition. :shrug:

[Ken Burch]

57. We were satirizing the mentality that justified such killings

No disrepect to the victims, all of whom were completely innocent and undeserving of any suffering at all, let alone death.

[Cannafield]

5. They probably had good reason to shoot them

This doesn't prove that they were innocent though. The source doesn't say their involvement, however, speaking personally to many soldiers about the things they've seen happen in Gaza, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to hear they knew what was going on and were directly involved. 

I remember my friend was telling me a story about his friend who's in golani(an elite urban combat unit in the IDF). He was saying that when he went into Gaza during Operation Cast Lead in 2008, they were facing Hamas forces at few hundred meter distances. He said that the way the area was, they needed to get through this street which Hamas was blockading. I think they had rocket pads in a building down the street which there was no other way to get to. And while pursuing Hamas, there just so happened to be an orphanage on the street. Hamas then proceeded to evacuate the orphanage and use the children (about 5-6 years old) to be used as human barricades. Basically what they did was line them up in mass in front, stood behind them, and held their guns above their heads to open fire. According to the reports from the soldier(bare in mind this is a friends friends story) the IDF platoon called command telling them the situation saying that they can't open fire because there's children.  But, they absolutely needed to clear the street since it was a situation which endangered the entire platoon. Unfortunately they were ordered to open fire, but the ethical situation was "them or us." Basically they were told to aim high.

It's an unfortunate situation but in times of war sometimes when it's survival you have to do what you have to do. And you cannot reason with Hamas. But, that being said. Seeing as I've had 13 year old Arab kids try to start trouble with me and have had men in their 60's and 70's spit at me in the Muslim quarter, even the Christian quarter, of the old city in jerusalem spit at me for being a Jew(I wear a kippa and tzitzit) I do not outrule the possibility in the least bit of them having assosciation with terrorist activities. I mean, I have friends who have been stabbed by 8 year old Arab kids in Jerusalem just for being Jewish. 

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dick Dastardly]

7. I didnt think it could get any worse than making jokes about peoples deaths but

pedophilia rape fantasies about 3 year olds is about the sickest thing I have seen in a while and maybe the sickest post I have ever seen. It goes beyond bad taste or callousness and points to a distubed mind. Posting shit like that is sick, sick, sick in any context. Someone needs some serious mental help. I dont care if this post would get me banned, I would still post it because it has to be said.

[shaayecanaan]

8. That last post may have been a little too black...

although frankly, given your signature, I think you're being selectively precious. However, given the chance I would probably edit out that first paragraph.

I would make the point that while my post was obviously flip and ironic, the previous post was apparently made in earnest. A claim of having multiple friends who just happen to have been stabbed by eight year old Arabs should cross the line of credulity for most people here.

I emphasise 'should', because of course it doesn't - and it won't.

[Cherchez la Femme]

19. nm self delete

[Ken Burch]

58. Which is worse? Joking about deaths, or causing them?

It was the right-wing, hate-based IDF high command that you should be condemning, and the politicians who STILL haven't given up on preventing the creation of a Palesitnian states, that are the villains here.

Not somebody with a questionable sense of humor.

[provis99]

9. so, how do you like Arabs? Do tell.

[Cannafield]

11. Arabs are humans - but don't call me a liar

From experience the majority of Arabs I've met amd spent time with I've found to be largely hospitable and friendly people. But these are Arab-Israelis. In fact one time I walked from tzfat to tiberias and ran out of water half way and some Arabs selling cherries on the side of the road gave me free water and bread. Generally speaking though, there's a big difference between Arab-Israelis, West Bank Arabs, and Gaza  Arabs. Major differences. The Arabs in Gaza have a genuine hatred towards us which has proven to be the case in the past. Those in the west bank are more or less okay with Jews on a personal level - though there is still a good ammount of negative sentiment sitting there, at least the PA doesn't fire rockets at us. They're a different story. And actually Arab-Israelis and some in even Jerusalem as I've experienced can be some of the nicest people on earth! In fact, the majority of Arab Israelis I've met like being under Israeli control though they do think that Israel has no right to the west bank, east jeruselam, and gaza. Why? Because all the ones there know that they make far more then they would in Jordan, the west bank, and especially gaza. Egyptians won't except them or any other Arab nation surrounding because in the arab world theyre treated like dirt also. I honestly feel bad for them. They're a people with nowhere to go and I think they deserve sympathy. But, relatively speaking the Arabs within the borders have recently been at peace and they have pretty decent paying jobs in comparison to what they can get anywhere else. At the end of the day, I do feel bad for the Palestinians(some), and think overall they're not bad people. They're really the same as anyone else at the end of the day. But I am not bullshitting you anything I've said. So don't call me a liar. It's the truth. And I have no reason to lie. I'm here because I find it stimulating and interesting, not to lobby for my cause but to hear good reasoning for disagreeing with my belief. And furthermore, I'm not necessarily Zionist. What most westerners fail to understand is the deep seeded hatred that goes on in this conflict. This is the middle east. Crazy shit happens all the time out here that goes unspoken. If you think your right wing Glenn Beck is a nut job, man you're in for a surprise when you come out here. You've never seen real extremism. And I don't claim in any way that there are not extremist Jews either. But you've really got no idea to what extent extremism can and does go if you don't think my stories are credible.

 

[Tripmann]

12. I don't think I've ever seen a new DU member so vociferously villify a group of people

Something is rotten in Denmark.....

[Cannafield]

13. And on what grounds do you assert I'm villifying Palestinians?

Do elaborate. Because that's a pretty vague statement.

[Tripmann]

16. One of your first posts on DU attempts to excuse the shooting of palestinians by villifying them.

The phrase "They probably had good reason to shoot them" shows that you are willing to vilify dead people once its your side who killed them. Had Israeli settlers been shot by the PA the phrase "They probably had good reason to shoot them" would be just as disgusting.

You are welcome to prove me wrong by posting proof showing that they did indeed have good reason to shoot them.

[Cherchez la Femme]

21. So the Arab-Israelis are OK but the rest of them?

Blech, amirite?

You say you're not here "for my cause" and that you're "not necessarily Zionist."
So I'm quite curious: What is your cause?

[Cannafield]

44. My cause?

I don't have one. I'm just stating what I've seen and periodically interjecting my opinions.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMajority]

14. Well said

I don't think Palestinians are much different than any other people. If Americans were put in the same situation I'm sure you'd get similar reactions. Cannafields argument that there is some under-current of simple hatred amongst even pre-teen Palestinians smacks of a white supremicist recalling how some little black kid stole his wallet or shot someone. He's just apologizing for the extreme zionists by making inexcusable abuse of Palestinians seem justified.

[Mosby]

15. Maybe your unaware of the extent of Jew hatred in the ME

From the Pew Research Center’s Global Attitudes survey done about a year ago:

In the predominantly Muslim nations surveyed, views of Jews were overwhelmingly unfavorable. Nearly all in Jordan (97 percent), the Palestinian territories (97%) and Egypt (95%) held an unfavorable view. Similarly, 98% of Lebanese expressed an unfavorable opinion of Jews, including 98% among both Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims, as well as 97% of Lebanese Christians.

By contrast, only 35% of Israeli Arabs expressed a negative opinion of Jews, while 56% voiced a favorable opinion.

The survey was conducted between May 18 to June 16, 2009.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=168176

[Cherchez la Femme]

22. And what about the Israeli hatred of Arabs?

Corrected for Israeli Arabs (y'know, the good ones)

Believe me, I've heard and seen so much Arab hatred from American Jews here in the U.S. that my hair should be quite curly -- witnessing all that I really think killed a part of my soul.
So I'd really hate to see what Israeli's (most turned hard right) would have to say
...those other than Gush Shalom, et. al.

[Mosby]

30. show me some empirical evidence

That proves your assertion, because I think your full of shit.

[Cherchez la Femme]

34. If I had a video camera on my marches, Mosby

and of course aimed in the right directions, I would.

If I had a video camera with me marching (actually I was not 'marching' but riding one of my rescued horses just behind her) in a Gay Pride Parade, where other marchers came and ripped off a girls Palestinian flag, tearing it, smacked her a number of times in the head and face, then ran off into the crowd (she was Palestinian and when I asked her about it later she said she was just proud her country, not advocating Hamas or any such shit -- not that that should matter in a Free Speech country!), I'd send it to you.
Can you imagine if somebody in the U.S. did that to an Israeli flag?
...in a Celebrate Diversity, all-accepting Gay Pride parade no less? :puke:


I don't happen to have other videos I've seen online -- guess I should have been more proactive;
but in future I will note them and send them to you.


And, in turn, I think YOU are full of shit.
Now we're nice & even! :hi:

[Cannafield]

45. No one said that there's not Zionist hatred of Palestinians or any other hatred

That's minor. Try bringing an American flag to ramallah. See what happens.

[whosinpower]

47. Why is that minor? nt

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mosby]

48. I looked for the poll at the Pew website and could not find it

But I think I found where the data came from - I included the link at the bottom of my post. In the Pew article they use terms like "highly unfavorable" and "strongly negative" to describe Muslim views towards Jews. In the Jpost article they use slightly different language but I would suggest that it is all referring to the same phenomena, anti-semitism aka Jew hatred. I just don't see any reason to dress it up or use academic language - it is what it is.

Regarding me "jumping in and lending my support" to ugly smears about Arabs, all I did was point out that cannafield's personal experiences are for the most part consistent with what the data shows, namely that Muslims in the ME overwhelmingly have very negative views/attitudes towards Jews. How exactly this manifests itself overtly I really don't know but I don't have any reason to think that cannafield is making stuff up or exaggerating his personal experiences. It was the Palestinians after all that launched the second Intifada as a result of their failures at Camp David, I don't know how a community of people resort to this kind of senseless violence against Israelis/Jews without already holding very dehumanizing/bigoted views towards them.


http://pewglobal.org/2005/07/14/islamic-extremism-common-concern-for-muslim-and-western-publics/3/

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Um, I can't believe what just happened here n/t

[Jim Sagle]

51. Are you trying to bore us all to death or what? (Paragraphs are yer friends.)

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

59. I tried to read her post but damn, it was dense.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shaayecanaan]

60. Indeed, you should try them sometime

even BNP supporters attempt paragraphs occasionally.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. What you posted does not equate to hatred nor support what the other poster said...

For a start, what you posted isn't from the actual poll, but the opinion of someone at the very RW Jerusalem Post. Secondly, having an unfavourable view of something or someone does not equal hatred of something or someone. For example, I've seen polls where Australian Aboriginals hold unfavourable views of non-indigenous Australians. If someone were to come along and try to say that means they hate us, it'd be just as incorrect as you saying it about Arabs. And it most certainly doesn't support the anecdotal story told by that poster, as that story involved violence, not merely unfavourable views of people...

As for the anecdotal story about brutal and violent Jew-hating Arab kiddies told by the poster in this thread who also believes in a Greater Israel, surely at some point most people who'd like for a story like that to be true stop and think to themselves that it's so unrealistic and it's just a version of the same sort of anecdotal stories told by a guy I knew who would insist Aboriginal kids were responsible for burglaries and car theft, and he'd tell constant stories of being accosted on the street by drunken Aboriginals who'd abuse him and cast racial slurs at him and threaten him with violence. I think that guy was about as realistic as the story told by the poster in this thread was. While it's an easy and clumsy attempt to smear a people with a negative generalisation, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Where were these supposed incidents happening? How did those Violent Arabs know the person was Jewish? How did he know they were Violent Arabs? I've seen quite a few people point out in this forum that Arabs and Jews look the same, so I'm kind of curious to know why that doesn't seem to apply when there's a horror story about Arabs to be told...

[Cannafield]

17. I'm no apologetic

I'm not being an apologetic. I am what you would call an "extreme Zionist", only because you, the person who is calling me an apologetic, don't know a better term. Frankly, I think the west bank and gaza should belong to us, the Jews. And furthermore, I think Israel should be a Jewish state. But it's just not ready for that. The formation of the Jewish state I oppose on more religious grounds. But now that it's been formed, I don't see it as something to go back on nor do I think we should give up even a single square inch of land.

The reason I'm not a Zionist by contemporary meanings of the term is because Zionism implies a secular Jewish state which I'm totally against and find it to be ideologically bordering racism, although I do not consider it racism because of certain distinctions in ideology.

Namely because the Jewish people are not a race. We are a nation. And the idea of us being a nation comes from a religious standpoint. Regardless of where the Jewish people are, with or without the land of Israel, we are still a nation. And I honestly don't agree with a seular Jewish state because the only reason that Jews exist and still exist to this day is because of the Torah. And do I mind if Palestinians share the land with us? Not at all as long as they don't try to convert us and don't hate us, I say let them live in Israel.

 Islam is a respectable religion in Judaism, despite it's differences with Judaism and my strong disagreemet with it's absolute validity and equally as much so is Christianity, in the same that I disagree with it. Namely because they fulfill their requirement according to the Torah, the 7 noahide commandments.

My reasons for stating that we should not give up any land is because the moment we do, the entire nation of Israel is endangered. And I don't mean the land or government itself. The mentality out here is who ever gives in is weaker. And that is an attitude that shows right through in every single daily interaction in the Israeli and Arab world. There is no such thing as a line anywhere in Israel. Israelis and Arabs are the most pushy people on earth and they will always try to squeeze something out of you. Although you'll see it more prevalent in the Arab parts. Try walking through any Arab souk(market, I don't know the English spelling but it's something like probably like שקא if I had to guess the Hebrew spelling) and you'll find that you can't walk past a single Arab shop without someone hassle you, "Hello sir, I have a special item for you!" I'll be honest with you I haven't seen that as much in Israeli's. I mean it happens sometimes, but not nearly as often. Go to Jerusalem and compare machmane yehuda to the souk inside the Damascus gate and down king David st through the Jaffa gate and you'll see exactly what I mean. I've had people follow me for quite a distance just to try and sell me a souveniour walking through Damascus gate, when I wasn't wearing a kippa more so.

But, the mentality out here is a constant mind set of who can go first. Israelis are pushy and constantly in survival mode as are the Arabs. I've never seen such a pushy people in my entire life. And I'm not hating on the Israelis because I'm Jewish. I love the Jewish people. They're my people. But honestly, this is the truth. The middle east is a place that has seen more conflict than anywhere on earth. Especially the land of Israel, or Palestine if you prefer for historical accuracy since about 70-something ce until 1948. The entire region is constantly at conflict so everyones mind set is fucked up. And you take a bunch of holocaust survivors and people escaping soviet Russia you've got a recipe for disaster. Because out here peace is seemingly indeed a lie that has been fostered between times of war. You don't have to believe me. Go there for yourself and get to know people of all facets of life in Israel: Arabs, Israelis, right wing ultra Zionist rav kook orthodox Jews, the anti-zionist charedi population which numbers are very high in the orthodox world, the left wing anti occupation Israelis, the secular Israelis, the secular Russians who aren't even necessarily Jewish, the Sephardim, the traditional, the modern Arab, the Bedouin, the Druze, the religious Israeli Arab, the religious west bank Arab, the modern west bank Arab, and don't even try to go into gaza because you won't come out. They'll kill you for being American unless you already have connections there. You think they give a shit about your cause? Gaza is so fucked up and they're so brainwashed. You are the enemy. You have absolutely no idea how deep seeded the hatred of the western world and particularly the Jews go. And the reason why I listed all these groups is because basically every single one of these groups of people, and I left a few out, have very strong differences in ideology and are considerablely at conflict with eachother. 

 And I'm not saying I'm right on everything. I don't expect you to agree with everything I've said. And you can form whatever opinions you want. But you'll never really know what it is until you really see it for yourself. The shit you see in the media, fox, CNN, your left wing media outlet, some of it's true but a lot of it has a gross spin on it and I can certainly testify to that from first hand experience.

ProgressiveMajority, go search hamas tv. You want to tell me a number of people don't sympathize with Hamas goals? Killing Jews and infidels? Go do a google on Hamas tv. Go see for yourself what the most watched tv program is in gaza. Go find out how many suicide bombers are teenagers and even children. In gaza this is not such a minority. In the west bank it is far less so and Arab israelis far, far, far less common. It's not uncommon from the stories I've been told by soldiers to have little kids firing guns at you and finding weapon stashes inside or schools, mosques, etc. Hell, there's even posters of martyrs in schools. This is something the people in gaza are raised with from day one. They know only war. It's a constant downward spiral for them and there's really no forseeable way for them to get out. That's what I really feel bad about. Because at the end of the day they are the same as anyone else. And you know you'd probably be the same if you lived there too.

And that's a pretty accurate statement in regards to what statistics were just posted by Mosby.

[polly7]

23. We are the enemy for all Gazans???

I'd be embarrassed to write that.

[Cannafield]

25. And yet no one has refuted me

I don't disagree with you at all. There is a lot of hatred from Jews. But if you understand what I was saying, I was unquestionably not preaching hate or necessarily even ignorance. I'm in Jerusalem right now. I've been all over Israel for the past 10 months. I can say almost for certain that not a single one of you in this thread though has been to Israel. I'm also not saying every single person from gaza hates Israel. But to a considerable ammount of them you are. And if you can't understand why, go look at gaza from even a distance and you'll understand. Because it's a shithole and your average Palestinian in gaza has no idea what's really going on outside. And if they speak against Hamas they'll be killed. But, the bottom line here is that overwhelming majority of you have not posted a single intellectual refutation of my statements apart from one line questions. Show me the array of material to counter my claims. Not one of you has done so. In fact, the study shown by mosby reflects what I'm saying to be true. 

[Cherchez la Femme]

35. Perhaps no-one has refuted you because your bigoted screeds

--and they have been just that--

are TL : DR, tedious, and will probably result in an insult if one doesn't agree with you?
(i.e. Suure, I read Stormfront! :eyes:)


Who wants to invest a large amount of time dissecting oblong blocks of text; especially when you know the poster has not the slightest intention of considering one's comments, even when one is aware they are of a certain bent, but instead are formulating yet more defensive bigoted, screeds against what one has taken the time to write?

There is no 'discussion' with the likes of you.
Don't expect that to change.

You're lucky to get the responses you have already.


edit: fixed typo

[ProgressiveMajority]

38. Agreed

Arguing with Zionists like this guy is banging your head against the wall.

He's proposing that Palestinians are somehow more extreme or less likely to compromise than the Israelis - that they are the problem.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. The word yr struggling to find is *apologist*

Frankly, I think the west bank and gaza should belong to us, the Jews.

I have a few questions for you...

1. Have you been to Gaza? You seem to be very quick to make sweeping negative generalisations about the people of Gaza, while in another thread making out DUers who criticise Israel (I notice the same isn't applied to anyone who agrees with yr views) don't know what they're talking about because they've never been to Israel...

2. I have nothing but contempt for anyone who believes in either a Greater Israel or a Palestine that includes Israel. In yr case, I'm wondering why yr at DU and why you didn't go find a more right-wing forum where extremist views such as a belief in a Greater Israel are welcomed?

3. If you think the West Bank and Gaza should be part of Israel, and you go on to say Israel should be a Jewish state (I assume that means you think the majority should be Jewish), then are you advocating support of an Israel that's not a democratic state? What do you see happening with the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza? If they're given Israeli citizenship then there's no longer a Jewish majority, if they're not given citizenship because they're not Jewish and treated differently to others in Israel, then Israel is no longer a democratic state. So what do you support? A democratic state of Israel with equal rights for all, or a Jewish state where Palestinians are treated on a much lower level than Jews? You can't have both...

[Cherchez la Femme]

18. Self-delete, wrong place

[Cherchez la Femme]

20. So the converse would be true

that Palestinians should consider all Israeli's guilty before they're judged innocent?

The kill ratio Palestinians/Israelis used to be 10:1 a long time ago
now the ratio is up to 100:1, at least the last time during Israel's most recent military incursion into Gaza; so dead-even Guilt Before Innocence should actually be a kindness, would it not?

And what of the U.N.? Israel has bombed U.N. buildings & killed its people not only in Gaza but in Lebanon
--shouldn't U.N. troops look upon the IAF as guilty before innocent and have Israel's right to shoot preemptively?


I mean, fair's only fair...

[Cannafield]

24. An update on the story

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=188040

innocent. Now the real question is, is it an excusable accident if someone was firing and rpg
at them.

[Cherchez la Femme]

26. EXCUSABLE ACCIDENT?!

What strange, bizarre definitions you have when defending the indefensible!


Edit: Why am I not surprised you read the Jerusalem Post?
Do you ever, as a defense for your 'arguments', quote Ha'aretz I wonder? --& I don't mean just random comments or editorials.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cherchez la Femme]

32. I resent that, very highly.

I have NEVER said anything negative about the Jewish people -- only the State of Israel.
That is NOT anti-Semitic, no matter the far right contentions and propaganda that it is.

I expect an apology pronto.


And your singular "a mistake" is funny. Highly amusing.
Did you mean it that way?


edit: a typo

[Mosby]

49. It can be a fine line but anti-Israel sentiment can cross over to anti-semitism

In another thread (see below) you state that Israelis are using Nazi tactics. I consider that to be crossing the line. Serious question though, do you think it's possible for the IDF to make an honest mistake? Because from what I see in your posts in the IP forum, your default position is that Israel is always in the wrong.



Cherchez la Femme (1000+ posts) Sun Sep-12-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
63. No, the territories weren't "won"

It is completely beyond me why Israel thinks people should completely condemn what the Nazi's did to the Jews (which should rightfully be condemned in the strongest possible language!)
yet when many of the same tactics are used by some of the very same people who have these high expectations, those who should know better

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=332089&mesg_id=332292

[Violet_Crumble]

40. So anyone who criticises the IDF is actually criticising Jews? Lame...

For a start the IDF is open to all Israelis, and isn't limited to Jews. Secondly, throwing that antisemitism card out there so freely and quickly really is a stark contrast to yr posts further up this thread where you put a fair bit of effort into defending negative generalisations about Arabs...

[Cannafield]

43. I said no such thing ever.

Quote me.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. I didn't say you did...

I was replying to a now deleted post from Mosby...

In case yr having problems following out what replies are to yr posts, I asked you some questions in a post that you've yet to answer

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=332305&mesg_id=332436

[Cannafield]

33. Be honest with me

I use more than jpost but that was the first place I checked. But yeah I read haaretz and yNet. But not only do I read jerusalem post, but I'm in Jerusalem! Sorry though but someone was about to fire an rpg at them. Natural instinct to assume it's probably the guys next to him as well. Is it excusable now? I mean, the idf does claim that it warning shots were fired first. That doesn't sound like propaganda to me. But civilians die, it's a tragedy indeed. Is it not unreasonable to assume that they might of been involved to? The civilians? I mean, I haven't lied to you about anything in any of my posts. I may have been unclear and even a bit cryptic at times. But, did you read my post in number 5? It wasn't villifying anyone it was statinG reasonable suspiscion. Unless of course you think I'm a liar or Zionist propaganda machine trying to get you to lobby for Israel during the next elections? Go on, say it. You doubt my sincerity. You think I'm not telling the truth? Spit it out. If give got something to say about my credibility, say it.

[Cherchez la Femme]

36. If I thought you were lying

I'd say it. If I doubted your sincerity, I'd say it.

To me, your credibility is indeed in question but I'm not saying that's deliberate on your part. You come from a certain viewpoint, a certain preconceived Faith. You believe sources which have been proved 'untruthful' to put it kindly, and which are part of the vastIsraeli propaganda machine -- those are your beliefs.

What I stated are also my own beliefs regarding both your sources, the way you put things, and you.

You may find it credible that the IAF protests the questioning of its deeds, motives, and how truthful they are. You believe it. Fine. I don't.

I have heard way too many times the same excuses
--time and time and time again--
about how they 'didn't know', how 'collateral damage is unfortunate but expected', about how Palestinians are liars just trying to stir the pot & get IAF soldiers in trouble -- even though there is much videotape and eyewitness testimony refuting all that. Another line 'Nobody could have imagined/predicted/conceived that X would happen!' is also a chestnut, also a doppelganger from recent U.S. history (Condi Rice, regarding 9/11). There has been so much death & destruction, in an incredibly skewed, asymmetric fashion, wreaked by Israeli soldiers; including attacking & killing U.N. peacekeepers, I no longer believe the constant trite lines about 'kids as human shields', while slaughters dozens of kids & adults. I have heard about --and disbelieved-- the countless "enemy combatants" killed by U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan;
how impossible it is that so many, entire extended families including so many very young children all happen to be, unbelievably, "enemy combatants"; and if I don't believe it of my fellow countrymen & women, how can I possibly suspend my disbelief and believe it regarding Israel?

It's ALL been used WAY too much.

And no, I don't truly believe any of them unless there is absolute confirmation vouched by non-interested, non-invested, neutral parties.

Israel cries 'Wolf!' too many times, nobody will come running anymore. They pushed, pushed, pushed for war with Afghanistan and Iraq; they have failed, so far, with Iran (probably only because the U.S. is smack out of cannon fodder) but the thing with Iran now is many people are not biting the dangled propaganda bait. Once bitten, twice shy is not just an adage. It seems Israel cares not one whit about our lost treasure and blood <--the latter irreplaceable.

Israel --with it's far superior funding, armor, equipment, technology, vehicles, aircraft, militia, weapons (including WMD)-- and from the point of being the strongest entity on that continent if not one of the strongest in the world, cries 'Victim' and 'Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!' way too much with the result hardly anybody believes it anymore.

Israel uses heavily funded groups such as AIPAC, GIYUS, CAMERA, JIDF (which COULD be a helpful force but since it apes the State of Israels official line and deals mostly, it seems, in propaganda it is widely discounted), etc.. It indulges in propaganda such as attempts at thought & opinion control, no matter what the truth is; (false) information seeding & control -- ultimately all kinds of propaganda (& the catapulting thereof) in every medium it can
including its own State Ministry of,
with arrogant impunity and still, no matter how many times they are found out, expects everyone to be taken in as automatons, never thinking critically of the pablum they're fed. Highly unrealistic.
People become aware of the tricks, they do NOT appreciate being fooled even the first time, nor are they enamored of being treated as an idiot and expected to keep on believing the same old tired, used story.

That's not to say that any of Israel's stories have always been false, obviously not. But using the same old same old, trying to manipulate everyone continually & constantly will unfortunately throw doubt & suspicion on everything.

I'm sorry if this post upsets or insults you, but it's the truth for many, many people -- and no, far from all are Muslims, Arabs or Middle Easterners.

If you really loved Israel, you should join Gush Shalom, one of the similar groups, or at least keep petitioning the government to be transparent and to above all tell the truth even if they f'ed up,

and to attempt to truly be, not start a propaganda campaign on how they 'really are', more humane to fellow human beings
--people around the world will appreciate that with the result of not being so suspicious that they're being treated as a brainless idiot, a patsy, and an easy mark to be used solely for the benefit of Israel's propaganda.


I don't know if it's been worth the time to put all this down,
but one can only hope...
If it hasn't, oh well: Lesson Learned.

[Cannafield]

42. I've seen the conflict first hand and can make a more informed decision than you

If you don't believe children are being used as human shields, you're fooling yourself. Because it does indeed happen and I know people that have been stabbed by children. This is not propaganda. I don't deny Zionist propaganda exists. But Ive seen outright hatred coming from Palestinian children. And for the last time, I'm not saying Israel is not equally as guilty. But Hamas is not a peaceful organization. They're a barbaric, inhumane, terrorist group which gives absolutely no regard for human life. The soldiers I know are not liars and can attest first hand in larger numbers to seeing these things happen. If you're going to say that this is type of thing is propaganda, then we have nothing to discuss. I've seen a lot of fucked up things happen out here and if you want to discredit me by saying I'm a victim of propaganda, go ahead. But you are wrong. I know what's happening because I've seen the conflic first hand. And that's something you've never seen and have probably never even spoken about with someone who has. 

[Shaktimaan]

61. I challenge some of your assertions here.

I have heard way too many times the same excuses--time and time and time again--about how they 'didn't know', how 'collateral damage is unfortunate but expected', about how Palestinians are liars just trying to stir the pot & get IAF soldiers in trouble -- even though there is much videotape and eyewitness testimony refuting all that. Another line 'Nobody could have imagined/predicted/conceived that X would happen!' is also a chestnut, also a doppelganger from recent U.S. history (Condi Rice, regarding 9/11). There has been so much death & destruction, in an incredibly skewed, asymmetric fashion, wreaked by Israeli soldiers; including attacking & killing U.N. peacekeepers, I no longer believe the constant trite lines about 'kids as human shields', while slaughters dozens of kids & adults. I have heard about --and disbelieved-- the countless "enemy combatants" killed by U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan;

The thing is, Israel actually has much lower incidences of collateral damage as compared with pretty much any other nation. Their rules of engagement are pretty strict and while there are certainly specific exceptions, the IDF isn't going out there and killing kids indiscriminately. Considering the environment they are fighting in there is certainly going to be collateral damage. There is just no way around that if you are going to be fighting in a place like Gaza.

There are plenty of documented cases of Palestinians using kids and non-combatants as shields.

What do YOU think is going on? That Israel is going in and killing civilians on purpose? That it is POLICY to do that? You would think that someone would have blown the whistle on something like that by now, don't you?

Israel cries 'Wolf!' too many times, nobody will come running anymore. They pushed, pushed, pushed for war with Afghanistan and Iraq;

They did? No, they didn't. Neither did AIPAC or anyone else.

Israel --with it's far superior funding, armor, equipment, technology, vehicles, aircraft, militia, weapons (including WMD)-- and from the point of being the strongest entity on that continent if not one of the strongest in the world, cries 'Victim' and 'Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!' way too much with the result hardly anybody believes it anymore.

I don't think Israel is crying that it's being oppressed. With a situation like cast lead, where Hamas had been firing rockets at Israel for years and every other option had been tried before mounting an actual military campaign, the problem isn't that Israel was facing an existential threat. But it was facing a threat and had a right to defend itself. The status quo of just absorbing thousands of rocket attacks isn't a reasonable solution.

Israel uses heavily funded groups such as AIPAC, GIYUS, CAMERA, JIDF (which COULD be a helpful force but since it apes the State of Israels official line and deals mostly, it seems, in propaganda it is widely discounted), etc.. It indulges in propaganda such as attempts at thought & opinion control, no matter what the truth is; (false) information seeding & control -- ultimately all kinds of propaganda

Do you know how insane it sounds to describe a single-issue organization (that exists to argue for a specific cause or point of view), as engaging in thought control?

[shaayecanaan]

50. To be honest,, you don't sound like any yeshiva student Ive ever met...

first of all, in fairness to you you've got much better English than the usual yeshiva student and secondly, that English closely corresponds with that of a typical American teenager.

I don't particularly care either way. But some of the claims you make are obviously absurd, such as you having multiple friends that have been stabbed by pre-pubescent Arab children in Jerusalem. If you want to be regarded as a rolled-gold bs artist, you're well on your way.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shaayecanaan]

55. "Go fuck yourself" doesnt sound much like a yeshiva student either...

So you admit you're not Israeli? Exactly how much time have you spent in Israel?

[Tripmann]

28. So, do you feel bad about claiming the IDF probably had good reason to shoot a 91 year old man dead?

Now that they've admitted he was innocent.

[hayu_lol]

66. Picked out a couple of things in the link...

the grandfather and a teen was standing next to the man holding the RPG. Were they taken there as hostages or were they just casual observers who happened by?

The article stated that it was evening. Was it getting dark or was it dark already?

Final question: How far from the tank were these people? Could they be clearly seen or just as figures in the distance?

[Cannafield]

27. Fair is fair, indeed

Ah in operation cast lead. Very good example. Isn't that somewhat if a strawman you're setting up, though? Because, the intel at showed that there was Hamas soldiers firing rockets from the school. Want me to find a link? Maybe the un should had premptive right to fire because it probably would keep Hamas troops away from their institutions. Not a bad idea at all.

As for the situation in Lebannon, that case I'm not so familiar with in all honesty. I'd have to look it up. But, would you consider that maybe the above statement is true in regards to Operation Cast Lead? Or is it Zionist propaganda to justify their outright hatred of the Palestinians and all those that help them. Just like how it's attempted genocide when they warn all the people in the area they're about to bomb one and a half hours before hand by helicopter dropping flyers around the entire area in large numbers?

Okay, and your presenting the numbers because? Israel has only two options, disband itself, or attack, those numbers will never drop otherwise. Present the third options though as I'm really curious as to a solution because nothing else will work, even tearing down the wall. That would fail.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kayecy]

37. Already covered in JPOST