I think the age of reason died at the RNC hatefest.

[Veggie Meathead]

The relentless use of Christian imagery,the wrapping of everything under the flag, the demonization of Democrats and the identification of anyone who opposes this administration with an enemy sympathizer,
all of these set the tone for this contentless convention of hatemongers.I am sure that the irony of looking just like the Ayatollahs of Iran escaped those Christian fundamentalists altogether.

What is the source of the incredible anger in these fundamentalists?
They seem to hold the balance of power in our society.They control our Congress and have at least an equal chance based on polls to return to power.Why then this display of anger?

I then realized that the anger is more fundamental than just holding power.The root cause is their belief that this nation, founded by White Christian true believers, must be restored to its original pristine purity;it has been corrupted by the influx of low class people,i.e. jews, blacks, hispanics,Asians and others.That is why Bush and Rove keep stoking the fires of this hatred through Christian imagery because it keeps the true believers happy and it helps hide their bigotry.

Knowing what we know about the fanaticism of the Iranian Mullahs and the Saudi Islamicists,and the uncanny resemblance of the Bush believers to these specimens,the old saying takes on new meaning:Pick your enemies wisely because they are the ones you are going to resemble the most.

[Rockholm]

1. Great Post! Did I hear the word "Resurrection"

is his speech, towards the end? Bush, you are not the second coming.

[Cat Atomic]

18. Yeah, they sprinkled lots of religious words in there, as usual.

"The resurection of New York", was a very heavy-handed example.

[soothsayer]

2. when fighting monsters, the biggest danger is becoming one n/t

[kcwayne]

3. Nevermind that their belief that this nation was founded

by White Christian true believers is demonstrably false. While the founders of the United States were white, the were not true believers, and in some cases were specifically not Christians. Anyone can do a simple search on Deists and find writings by many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution in the references.

[jdj]

15. But the puritans, etc.

we got the freaks of all stripes no one else wanted.

we got that undercurrent here, despite our heritage of honorable intelligentsia like Jefferson.

I think we always thought intellect could overcome them, but when paired with the billions of people like Koch and Sciafe and Moon, they are kicking our asses. It's the billionaire money behind the scenes that is giving fanatics their day in the sun.

I'm at a loss about what to do about it, too.

[Veggie Meathead]

21. Read THE TENTACLES OF RAGE by Lewis Lapham in the

August issue of Harper's Magazine to get an idea of the money machine deployed in the service of the Right wing agenda.

[jdj]

24. thanks you, veggie meathead.

I love it whenever I can get a good visual or outline of the truth, this info is usually kept under wraps.

[Cats Against Frist]

4. I think what did it for me

was the line in Zell's speech about how (paraphrased) Democrats supposedly believe that America brings on the terrorists through misguided foreign policy, rather than the vague "they hate our freedom and way of life," cry.

I can say, as a person with a degree in Nonwestern politics, that it is statements like these that make me believe the age of reason has died. It is revisionist history, at its best. Anyone knows that our foreign policy is just an arm of corporate brutality in the Third World.

This is what drives me nuts -- not their beliefs, but the fact that they won't "own up" to their beliefs, and really, really tell the world "Fuck YOU -- we White Christians are superior, and you are a bunch of brown heathens to dominate."

Reading Free Republic will tell you that this is what they believe. Listening to GOP callers on Washington Journal will tell you that this is what they believe. Their policy OBVIOUSLY tells you that this is what they believe. But they "cloak" it -- spin away from the real beliefs, SAYING another story -- one that is travesty to the real words "freedom," and "liberty."

And another thing -- listening to them talk about freedom and liberty, but realizing that they are the party OF big government, is really surreal. This is the party of:

1. Interventionist foreign policy, empire building and even "humanitarian" intervention.
2. Foreign policy as a corporate arm.
3. The Police State
4. The militarization of society.
5. Laws against drug use, prostitution, gambling.
6. The Patriot Act
7. The No Child Left Behind Act
8. Proposed Constitutional Amendments: Mandatory School Prayer, Anti-Flag Burning, Abortion Ban, Gay Marriage Ban.
9. A regressive, government-engineered "trickle down," project that shifts the bulk of the taxes to the working classes.
10. Arresting people who want to buy drugs from Canada.
11. FCC fines for obscenity on television.
12. National Mental Health Tests
13. Marriage Promotion Programs
14. Medicare Prescription Drug Bill
15. Corporate & Farm Subsidy

Who is dumb enough to believe these people are for "small government?" and "liberty?"

They really did a number, leaving some of their whackjobs in the shadows, at this convention. I wonder how the Christians will react -- are they that evil and plotting that they're saying "oh, we know he can't speak to us, because he has to bamboozle the rest of the population into believing that we're not dangerous fundamentalists, who want to dismantle modernity and rational claims for governance?"

They point to liberals being "extreme," (which is just hooey), but the gap between what the GOP SAID at this convention, and how they really FEEL, is nothing more than a BIG BIG BIG LIE, and it should be pointed out at every chance one gets.

[Veggie Meathead]

5. The fact that they find it necessary to hide their true beliefs tells us

t;hat they realize they are in a minority;one of the great geniuses of Karl Rove is to appeal to these bigots while putting on a reasonable face to the decent people so he can put together a coalition of the "willing to believe in Bush".The use of terror nicely complements this effort.

[ladjf]

6. The Age of Reason put a stop to 800 years of persecution.

In the U.S., the retrogression away from the enlightenment started somewhere about the time Sen. Goldwater was preaching the Gospel that "extremism in the pursuit of freedom is no vice" and the John Birch Society was trying to impeach Earl Warren. It picked up speed during the Nixon years, with the help of several former Nazi propagandists. The heart of their success was the "Southern Strategy".
The rest is history.

You are correct in the the Age of Reason has ended and that the Republicans are responsible for that. If Thomas Jefferson or Ben Franklin were alive today, they wouldn't be allowed to teach in the public schools in many areas and most definitely would be unable to get elected to public office in the same areas.

If this trend continues, you can expect a complete reversion to a Neo-Inquisition period. Currently, the wild eyed visions of Ashcroft will give some hint to where they are going. Theocracies = misery for the masses.

Funny thing is that when the Global Corporate fascists finish using the religious right-wing, they will discard them as fast as the Republicans discarded Zell Miller. That's what Hitler did in the early 1940's. The Republicans are easy to predict once you realize that they are following the Nazi playbook to the letter.

[Veggie Meathead]

8. It is not merely their innate belief in their entitlement but

their belief that the "lower classes" should not be given a seat at the table of power except as Uncle Toms that is driving them, I think.

[tom_paine]

19. Yep, and the persecutions are just waiting for their chance to start again

(as are the persecutors)

[sadiesworld]

7. I think that the movers and shakers in the rethug party would like

nothing more than to disassociate themselves from the fundies. Thay couldn't care less about gay marriage, abortion, extra-marital affairs or any of the other things that keep their base up at night. In fact, their positions on these issues only serve to cramp their own lifestyles and make them look "uncool".

In 2008, I believe they will split (in a sense). I see Ahnold as the candidate (not sure why anyone thinks amending the constitution is a big deal to these folks). They will peel off libertarians and those primarily concerned w/ social/cultural issues from the dem party. Some of the cross-overs will not be entirely comfortable with the switch, but I imagine the debt/economy situation will look so bleak as to be insurmountable w/o some real pain. Ahnold would also guarantee retention of the "macho" vote.

They may try to keep the fundies in check with faith-based initiatives and a few RW politicians who will appear to be working for their causes (ala Saudi Arabia). It seems bizarre to think that the fundies will continue to vote against their best interests w/o the cultural goodies, but they appear to be easily brainwashed.

:tinfoilhat: ?

[Veggie Meathead]

9. After posting this, I was also wondering why it is that they keep

repeating lies even after they have been proven to be lies, like Dick Cheney repeating that WMD's were found in Iraq.And,of course, Rush Limbaugh and Hannity repeating and concocting lies by the dozen every day.This is a twist on the Straussian principle of the Noble Lie.They believe that the rulers are entitled to lie to us paisans;add to that the belief that the "lower classes" do not even deserve to be told the truth and you have the perfect recipe for this Party's descent into what looks like unreason to us.But, may be is the most reasonable thing to them.We just are not their equals you see.

[Q]

10. I don't see much resistance to this fanaticism...

...from the media OR the loyal opposition. This is exactly how Hitler rose to power. No one could ever imagine such things happening in Germany.

- The undercurrent of racism and the slobbering zealots willing to follow Bush* over the cliff foretells a very bad time in American history.

[leftofthedial]

11. hatred, intolerance and racism

with greed as a potent fuel.

And a carburetor pumping lots of volatile ignorance into the mix.

[leftofthedial]

12. I liked Jon Stewar's comment to McCain

I thought they would come after us (Dmeocrats) with torches.

[jdj]

13. Asked and answered

"What is the source of the incredible anger in these fundamentalists?"

answer: child abuse.

however, polite society requires you to love your parents (honor thy father and thy mother) and act like they can do and did no wrong, so guess who is going to get the internal rage.

Anyone who doesn't understand this whole process needs to read Kafka's "The Fly" and "The Trial". (book has nothing to do with either sci-fi joke of a movie)

the child in the family is made the other-figure, a receptacle of all the negative emotions of the whole family (this goes back for generations). Kafka used an insect and fictional situation to bring the reader to a place where they could understand the disgust and repulsion the child felt COMING AT HIM yet had no explanation for. Unfortunately, his true meaning has been almost completely lost. Also, in "The Trial" he demonstrates the child's emotional life where one tries to deal with all the emotions projected on one, yet can't ever find out what one has done to deserve this, what crime one has committed (for the child tries to apply the logic of cause and effect to this situation, to save it's own sanity, but no logic applies). All one knows is that you are branded guilty regardless.

Government IS the parent figure, and the governed ARE the children, and the sooner people figure this out the better a world we can make.

Anyhoo, the emotional fallout of this abuse must be directed somewhere when the abused is no longer a powerless child, but instead a powerful adult, so republican or conservative society comes ready made with a group of "other-figures", namely gays, minority races, women, godless communists, and now "liberals" to vent that radioactive waste on, while still appearing respectable and xtian. It's a free for all, just add anger, no permission slip required.

Every repuke is a Gregor Samsa with "guilty" tattooed in clear ink on their back. And YOU ARE GONNA PAY FOR IT, TOO. Just ask the Iraqis.

German psycho-analyst Alice Miller's books "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware" and "For Your Own Good" explain this phenomenon. She goes into great detail about German child rearing practices in the generation before the rise of the third reich and refutes the "Hitler ex machina" theory of the holocaust, instead asserts that German children were so routinely brutalized in childhood, that a whole generation of children were numb and highly disassociative of brutality and also imbued with a need for "other-figures" that the holocaust was almost inevitable. She produces a number of child-rearing books from the 19th century that prove her point, many advocated humiliation, frustration and mental torment of children as every day teaching methods.

These are the repukes, because our ancestry over here is higly germanic, and us liberals are escapees from this whole sick process. And they hate us for it, and they are gonna make us pay. (And get rich in the process.)

Sorry so long a post, the importance of this question can't be understated. (This is not to state that some repukes aren't just business men who have figured out that to meet the emotional needs of many in this populace, described above, is a great way to garner votes.

[nickinSTL]

17. uh, are you suggesting

that if our society is highly Germanic, and the source of the anger is child-abuse, that Germans naturally abuse their children?

If I read that wrong, I apologize, but that's just offensive.

I grew up in a family with a father of German descent of which he is quite proud, and his mother spoke German to him when he was a kid. But my family sure wasn't abusive. (and my dad's not even a liberal)

[jdj]

23. please re-read my post.

I am of german descent.

Alice Miller, the psycho-analyst who has done so much work on the childhoods of the officers of the third reich, and of the general populace at the time, IS German, and lives in Germany. If you would read the English translations of her books, instead of having a knee-jerk reaction, you would understand where I am coming from. I'm talking about Germanic tribes, and a whole tradition of child-rearing that originated in the dark ages and continues today, all over the western world. (Though I don't beleive it has to do with race or ethnicity, I associate it with highly patriarchal authoritarian societies where the child is not even viewed as a human being with rights, a good book on how this perpetuates in society is called "The Authoritarian Personality", I can't remember the author.

She quotes extensively from these "manuals" produced in the 18th century, to give the reader an idea of what german children deemed normal, and why they therefore did not speak up against the holocaust in significant numbers. (Not ruling out the economic conditions present in the lead up, which Kenyes predicted would propel Germany into another war, but no one listened to him.)

A question was asked. People need to wake the fuck up and try to understand what is driving these folks.

By the way, I recently worked with a man who was in his late 60's, who grew up in Germany. One night when we were talking, he told me that when he grew up it was not uncommon to see children missing a finger, because if one acted out sometimes a parent would chop off the tip of the child's finger as punishment. If you want to read my post as a slam on Germans instead of an outline on what kind of childhood produces the people that are the biggest threat to this planet to date, then you are SO missing the point. And I don't appreciate it. I did not "suggest" anything, I was pretty damn straight-forward about exactly what I meant to say. Sorry if that sounds grumpy, but I this is incredibly important, and I am so tired of people not connecting the dots, and then waxing bewildered about this situation in which we liberals find ourselves presently.

[Jade Fox]

27. Alice Miller talks about a specific era in German/Austrian child rearing

practices which she believes was a major factor in producing people
who were particularly susceptible to Hitler's appeal. Its one of the
most insightful things I have ever read. It is in her book "For Their Own Good"
I believe.

[Jacobin]

14. We are DEFINITELY headed for the Dark Ages

All the signs are there. Intellectualism and the pursuit of arts is laughed at. Militarism and superstition are vaunted qualities. The Church merging with the state. Science becoming subjugated to mysticism and religion.

All very very very bad signs.

[jdj]

20. I truly believe money is driving this movement.

I am stunned, but I am hopeful that if we can get a liberal in office and the leadership of this country is liberal, that hopefull the fanatics will splinter off out of desperation, and this could work in our favor.

At their heart though, these so-called x-tians are just business men whoring Jesus for money. Which makes me think that public exposure of their ties with the more libertarian nutjobs is the only way to bring them down.

[tom_paine]

16. Yes, it's back to the 1890s, 1790s and 1590s!

Bad times for most people.

And yes, when the Depression the Busheviks are causing hits, their followers will be ready to receive the orders to bully, intimidate, and murder.

When they get a badge from the Nationalized Neighborhood Watch, they will be ready wil the Blessing of the State to perform atrocities.

[Veggie Meathead]

22. One of the lessons for me out of this RNC hatefest is that when

religion takes over our political discourse and reason is thrown to the winds, the fanatics amongst us take charge and no amount of reasoning or logic can convince them that all people are given their rights by our Constitution.Even a guy seated at the the august Supreme Court, the thief Scalia, says that all our rights flow from a divine source as interpreted by christian ministers like Falwell and Robertson, who, by a happy coincidence,believe that all non christians will burn in hell.So denying them equal rights does not
seem like such a bad idea after all. Having enshrined this belief
from Congress to the Supreme Court much in the way the Mullahs in Iran have done, we are on our way to witness the complete wreckage of our Constitution at the hands of these knownothings who have sworn to uphold the document that means nothing to them.

[ladjf]

28. There are some great posts in this thread. Yours is one of the best.

[RobinA]

25. Agree Except

I don't think the Age of Reason died at the convention, I think the fact that it was already dead made that convention possible.

[Veggie Meathead]

26. Sorry that I have to agree with you.

[ladjf]

30. I date the start of the retrogression circa 1950.

Philosophy, the science of determining values, is all but dead. It's as though it's irrelevant. Society is plunging ahead without a workable hierarchy of values, meaning a system that would lead people to make wise decisions in their lives.

But, regardless of man's actions, Nature will continue to interact in it's totally immutable style. Unless we wake up and start living objectively, we are likely to become the record holders for the briefest tenure of any species in history. Man can't live by voodoo alone.

[Doctor_J]

33. I think this is it in a nutshell

It is hard to pinpoint where the death took place. Surely in 2000, when the least qualified, least intelligent, least educated man to ever run for the WH defeated (more or less) one of the MOST qualfied, something was seriously askew already. In the 90's the media managed to convince the electorate that a consensual sexual affair was more important than jobs, the environment, economic progress and peace and prosperity. In 1988 GHWB was able to overcome serious questions about his character and leadership potential by taking Willie Horton as a running mate.

So this week's RNC probably was not the death of reason, just another milestone of decay.

[Beetwasher]

29. Religion and Belief Becomes the Ultimate Justification for any Behavior

My god has a divine plan that we mere mortals can not comprehend. If I murder you it MUST be a part of god's plan, merely by my commission of the act, therefore, I'm justified in my murdering of you. I'm justified in ANYTHING I do because it's all meant to be for some greater purpose of which I'm incapable of understanding. As long as I have blind faith in my god, I can do no wrong. I can steal and rig elections, start unjust wars, lie about my opponents, anything, it's all in god's name and part of his plan.

It's theocratic based nihilism.

[ladjf]

32. Another profound post!

[Veggie Meathead]

36. I couldn't have said it better myself, beetwasher!

[quinnox]

31. Agree, this convention was almost like a racist rally

I don't think it will go over well with the undecided voter. "All Democrats are traitors or the enemy" is a good theme for rabid right wingers and their audiences that is used well by the likes of Coulter and Hannity, etc. But it won't work with moderates who will be turned off by the rage and hate.

[Doctor_J]

34. first, there aren't many undecideds,

and second, Rove is on the record as saying he doesn't need any swing voters. He thinks that if he can just energize the base, that will be enough.

[Veggie Meathead]

37. The smart part of their strategy was to convince enough decent people

to think they are doing what they are doing by necessity, not choice.That these decisions are thrust on them so to speak.Extraordinary times require extraordinary measures etc.And Bush is the right man to do the job.What more do we need?

[ArkDem]

35. So, I guess you don't feel Paine's exaltation

of the moral nature of man to be the foundation of theistic religion, in 'Age of Reason' has steadily humanized religion, and its ultimate philosophical and ethical results have not yet been reached.

[Veggie Meathead]

38. When I talk about the Age of Reason, I had in mind the

foundations of Western thought that rested on the ideas of Cartesian logic and Newtonian Mechanics.That the Universe can be interpreted by man without divine guidance.The idea each cause has an effect and each effect has a cause.That has liberated us from being bound by the magical powers of an unknown force.It is these magical powers we are reverting to from the evident display of ignorance that trashes several centuries of our most glorious inheritance.From here to barbarism there only a few baby steps more.