Massachusetts: nanny-state gun control FAIL

[MannyGoldstein]

So much over-the-top coverage of the shootings in Aurora! It's a sad story, but we should not overreact. On an average day in the US, roughly 80 people are killed by guns people who coincidentally happen to have guns, so Aurora only represents 15% of Friday's quota.

One thing I am thankful for is that we're not hearing people refer to my own state of Massachusetts as a model for reducing gun deaths.

As pretty much anybody who's paying attention knows, Massachusetts is a nanny-state's nanny state. For centuries it has been overrun with liberals, ranging from the Revolutionary War crowd, to the Kennedys, to that shrill woman Elizabeth Warren.

Par for the course, Massachusetts also has a bumper crop of second-amendment haters. Visitors realize this pretty quickly when they see the array of anti-second-amendment billboards on the side of the Mass Pike, by Fenway Park:



?w=300

Shameful!

Of course, it turns out that Mass has about the toughest gun laws in the country. Strictly by coincidence, it also has the second-lowest rate of gun deaths in the country. Hawaii, who also coincidentally has strict gun laws, has an even lower rate.

There are some gun grabber types who use so-called "math" to show that if Massachusetts had the same rate of gun deaths as our second-amendment-biding neighbors to the north (New Hampshire), we'd have more than 200 more dead people in our state each year. In fact, if the entire country had the same rate of gun deaths that we do, roughly 21,000 fewer people would be killed. I suppose that some sort of argument could be made that this would be a good thing, but we need to consider the other side of the equation.

Living in Massachusetts is Hell for gun enthusiasts. People need to know how bad it is here.

It's almost impossible to get guns and ammo in this state.

For example, on my commute to work each day, I pass only two gun stores. Only two! What would happen if I was having a shootout with another car on my way to work and needed more ammo pronto, or I wanted to upgrade my firepower? I might have to drive miles under withering attack before I could exercise these second-amendment rights. This is unacceptable.

One of my co-workers has a permit to carry a concealed weapon in our state. He actually had to apply for the permit, wait a few days, then get the permit. Soviet Union, anyone?

200 lives saved in our state each year. Is it really worth this terrible price?

Regards,

NRA Manny

[xchrom]

1. GASP! I don't know how you do it, NRA Manny.

All that seems hardly 'Civilized'.

I think you need a bazooka for your commute.

I mean you never know! There might a Thug on your way some place that needs blowing up!

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Thank you for your acknowledgement of our suffering

Every day I drive to work scrunched down uncomfortably, hoping to make myself a difficult target.

Our only hope is electing more realistic Democrats to the state legislature and as governor.

[lilithsrevenge12]

71. where the hell do you live?

[nanabugg]

28. Didn't Mitt Romney pass that gun law when he was Gov? Another reason not to vote for him. nt

[jmowreader]

39. That gun law predates Romney's reign of error by many years

When I went to school in Mass in 1982, the first thing the colonel (yes, it was an Army school) told us about was the Mass gun law, and how if you violated it the Army'd have to throw you out because you can't wash sheets in a civilian prison for a year and still be a soldier.

[MannyGoldstein]

44. Passed in 1998

Under a Republican Governor (Cellucci), although governors don't have much power in this state. That said, Cellucci and his Republican predecessor Weld were to the left of most Democrats in America - Romney ran as this kind of Republican, but became a right-wing nut shortly after taking office.

[jmowreader]

86. I didn't know they had a new law, sorry

Massachusetts has registered gun owners for many years.

In 1982, you had to be licensed and hold a Massachusetts Firearms Identification Card if you had a gun within the borders of the state. Nonresidents had to have these too if they were going to be there longer than a certain length of time...soldiers on Fort Devens and airmen at Hanscom AFB had to have the cards for guns they stored in the military arms rooms. If you didn't have the card, and had a gun in Massachusetts, you broke rocks for the state for a year.

[2ndAmForComputers]

3. What a horribly disgusting place.

I hope every true red-blooded, RKBA-loving, card-carrying NRA member Real American Patriot™ stays far away from there.

[MannyGoldstein]

4. I fear for our children

The Hell we have made for them.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

30. I know,...they might even keep their adult teeth past the age of 25....

[booley]

5. you really should add a sarcasm tag

I 've seen so many actual serious arguments like this I almost didn't see the POE here

[MannyGoldstein]

6. POE?

New TLA to me. What's it stand for?

Thanks!

[Tunkamerica]

17. Point of entry? I'm guessing.

[tblue37]

34. "Poe's Law."

"Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe, is an Internet adage reflecting the fact that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between sincere extremism and an exaggerated parody of extremism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

[MannyGoldstein]

41. Thanks for this

I hoped by the time I got to the rolling shootouts on my commute it would be obvious, but I guess that almost nothing can safely be considered over the top these days...

[booley]

56. I figured it out at the end

but it took a while.

Not your fault but like I said, I have seen plenty of serious arguments make the same "points" you did.

[Patiod]

7. But haven't we been told that Strict Gun Control = More Deaths?

What an anomaly you have there, Manny! I can't believe you pass only 2 gun stores on your way to work - that's just crazy?

As one of the people right here on DU told me, they only WISHED they could be dispensed from machines at 7-11 (like you can buy iPods).

[MannyGoldstein]

8. And in our gut, we know that fewer guns=more deaths

It's only "math" and "facts" that say otherwise, and they have a well-known agenda.

[LAGC]

9. Yet the violent crime rate in Massachusetts is more than 3 times higher than New Hampshire...

But I guess that's okay, because at least people aren't being killed and assaulted with guns?

Dead is dead.

[Ian David]

52. Have you ever driven on New Hampshire roads to go kill someone?

First of all, it takes at least an hour to get there. They also hear you coming for miles on their unpaved, gravel roads. And they can follow your dust trail as you drive away.

[Jennicut]

57. That is so true.

I live in Connecticut but my father in law lives in NH and we visit him frequently. To get anywhere in that state you need to drive forever. To get from Lincoln to Conway to do something takes at least 45 minutes. To get to his house in the middle of nowhere (Lyman, NH) you need to go down a long, gravel driveway. NH just has less people and therefore, less violence then Mass. Mass is like CT in that in some areas, there is major congestion and a lot of people on top of each other.

[Warren Stupidity]

77. To get to No Weare you have to drive through Weare.

Seriously. I've done it many times.

[AlbertCat]

61. the violent crime rate in Massachusetts is more than 3 times higher than New Hampshire...

So is the population!

[LAGC]

90. Let me clarify...

The PER CAPITA violent crime rate is three times higher in Massachusetts.

So it accounts for population.

[Blecht]

10. Where did you get your numbers?

Great post, but I would like to know some more specifics about how you came up with those numbers.

This is the most comprehensive source I could find: http://www.cdc.gov/NCHS/data/nvsr/nvsr58/nvsr58_19.pdf

I was really surprised to see that firearms caused almost 3/2 as many deaths as alcohol -- 31,224 vs. 23,199.

[MannyGoldstein]

14. Did you see the link I provided?

Did you want more?

[Blecht]

85. I had overlooked the link

Thanks -- its information is one year newer than what I was able to find.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. If you count suicides, yes.

Of course, nations with extremely strict gun control still have higher suicide rates, because people find other ways to accomplish it. (See Japan)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

32. "nations with extremely strict gun control still have higher suicide rates"

Is that because gun nuts have no reason to live?

[AlbertCat]

63. (See Japan)

Which has a tradition of suicide...

[AtheistCrusader]

66. And?

How about Korea. Approximately the same near-total ban on firearms as Japan. Suicide rate 31/100,000. (10/100k higher than Japan even)


Even though they make up the lion's share of suicides AND the lion's share of gun-related deaths in the united states, our total suicide rate is 11.8/100,000 per year.

Perspective is important.

There are certainly examples of nations with tighter gun control than the US, with lower suicide rates, like the UK. Suicide is more of a cultural issue, as you pointed out, the weapon employed to accomplish it is largely irrelevant. As we can see by looking at the list of countries with the highest suicide rates, firearms are pretty incidental.

[AlbertCat]

67. Perspective is important.

Indeed it is!

Reincarnation and the Eastern religions that have that and no restrictions on suicide make a difference.

[Chorophyll]

11. I will never go to Massachusetts!

Wait, I mean I will ONLY go to Massachusetts. Seriously, I live in New York and I sometimes go to Cape Cod. I think I'll stick to this plan.

Great post. DU Rec.

[beac]

12. Oh the humanity!

The tyranny of facts and math and, yanno, logic n' stuff. Damn libbrul gubbint.

At least your poor state doesn't have "volcano monitoring" like that gun-restricted hell hole of Hawaii!

[NRaleighLiberal]

13. and with the Red Sox playing like they are, it's a good thing, too!

Ah, I miss New England (wife is from Lowell. me from lowly pawtucket RI!)

well done, Manny - K&R

[MannyGoldstein]

16. PawSox rock

We're going to the game next Sunday.

[FailureToCommunicate]

82. ...and don't forget the Lowell Spinners!

?w=200&h=128&h=128

[MannyGoldstein]

89. Indeed! nt

[Lex]

15. Wait! You mean TOUGHER gun laws mean LESS gun deaths?

What kind of crazy-talk is this?

[Logical]

18. Hey Einstien, check out Chicago murder rate and get back to me!

[Lex]

19. Go whisper sweet things to your gun.

Maybe you'll feel better.

[Logical]

21. LOL, nice excuse not to admit Chicago has tight gun laws! So much...

For logic from you!

[iamthebandfanman]

27. Guns wont stop murder in chicago

nor will taking them away.

chicagos problems are deep and racially/class motivated..

the answer to chicago is class equality.

some places, it doesnt matter what laws you enact..if times are hard, times are hard. for chicaco, thats been a while.

id be interested in seeing the state as a wholes statistics tho

wonder if anyone has stats for outside of chicago?

[Egalitarian Thug]

35. That's a bit of a problem since Chicago is practically a nation unto itself.

Located in Illinois, it has almost nothing in common with Illinois.

Springfield, the capital, is about as different from its largest population center as can be. The much maligned and fearsome inner-city where blatant criminality in both the neighborhoods and City Hall run rampant, bears almost no resemblance to the tony suburbs that surround it. MLK remarked that, despite living his whole life in the Jim Crow south, he had never encountered the raw hatred and racism he did in Chicago.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. That would be a really interesting statement if you showed MA had a high gun death rate prior to

those laws being enacted.

You can show that, right?

[Tejas]

40. YUP, just like in Mexico.

oh wait.

[hack89]

47. Higher education levels and lower levels of poverty means LESS gun deaths. nt

[mountain grammy]

20. I live in opposite state Colorado

I love Colorado; the weather, the mountains, the people, but we value our freedom to own assault weapons of mass destruction more than we value the lives of our children. We have a Democratic governor who is scared shitless of the gun nuts who call the shots in the legislature. What a great victory for the NRA: the Chucky Cheese massacre, Columbine High School and now the theaters in Aurora, not to mention many other innocents who have and will die at the end of a gun in our beautiful state.. You would think we would at least have a good state health insurance plan to pay for the injured, but nah. Maybe the guv could ask the NRA for the money.

[Egalitarian Thug]

36. You should have lived there before all the assholes from Texas and the east coast moved in and

fucked it up with the bullshit they brought with them.

It was once a really nice place.

[mountain grammy]

80. I've lived here 30 years

Almost half my life, and you're right, politics have changed here, just like everywhere. People have become dumber and dumber.. I know people who ONLY watch fox, and believe every word they hear there.

[gcomeau]

22. The sad thing?

That sounded so much like the *actual arguments* I hear sometimes it took me halfway through the post to recognize it as satire.

[valerief]

23. I never leave home without my hydrogen bomb. Never know when I'll need it. nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

33. I take it you have a fast car.

[MADem]

26. My brother in law, who is a hunter and has been since he was a kid, is a MA resident.

He feeds the family and supplements several friends/neighbors with the stuff he shoots.

He hunts locally and regionally, and has never, to my knowledge, felt constrained by the regulations in our state.

[sasha031]

29. What an excellent & creative post Manny

I love living in our nanny State

[petronius]

31. It seems that the discrepancy between MA and NH is in suicides

If we look at suicide rates for the two at your site, NH is substantially higher. But comparing murder rates for about the same time period from Census (it seems your site doesn't have murder broken out?), it looks like MA is about 3x higher...

www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf

[Union Scribe]

37. So why is MA's murder rate increasing?

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

In 2000, it was 2/100,000
By 2005 it was 2.7/100,000
In 2010 it was 3.2/100,000

Must be all of those out-of-staters coming in with their guns.

[Zorra]

38. Because this warped culture drives many people insane.

If they can't use a gun to kill someone, they'll use a golf club, knife, car, poison, whatever.

[MannyGoldstein]

45. If you picked 2009 instead of 2010, you'd show it was level or decreasing

2.6 in 2009.

2010 was (hopefully) a blip.

[Union Scribe]

58. The trend is clearly upwards. Nice try, though. nt

[AlbertCat]

65. The trend is clearly upwards.

And this is clearly and unequivocally because of gun laws.... you can prove that.... you can prove that it wouldn't be trending up FASTER without the gun laws....right?


nice try though...

[Union Scribe]

88. It is in spite of gun laws, that is fact.

There are the guns laws the OP is bragging about, and the murder rate is increasing over time with them in place. I'm just giving you facts, what spinning you choose to do with them is up to you.

[MannyGoldstein]

73. I disagree

You'd need to show statistical significance in comparison to nationwide trend. Not at all clear.

[madokie]

42. As only MG could put it

You are a gem in a world of rocks

[Vinca]

43. You guys are really a bunch of Commie pinkos.

To add insult to injury, if you happen to be the victim of a shooting you have access to healthcare. It's an embarrassment to all the stupid people of America.

[HopeHoops]

46. Very clever. That's a great bar argument waiting to happen.

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. first they will want you to register your guns - then they will want you to register your car.

first they will try to restrict what kind of firearms you can own and how many bullets it fires and then they will try to restrict what kind of motorized vehicle you can drive and how fast you can go..

[Yavin4]

49. Of Course Mass. Has Tough Gun Laws. Without Them, The Red Sox Wouldn't Be Able To Field A Team

Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, and Bobby Valentine would be afraid to leave their houses.

[cthulu2016]

50. But assaults with Baked Beans are much higher than elsewhere

You can't stop someone bent on being an evildoer

[brewens]

51. Same with the DUI laws. Was it really worth all the profits and jobs to stiffen DUI laws?

For what? To save such a small percentage of people killed? Think of all the bartenders and cocktail waitresses and their families for a change. Not to mention how much harder it is to get laid on a Saturday night. You have to decide between that last drink and cab fare. There was a day in this country where a good bartender would fish your keys out of your pocket, help you out to your car and start it for you! Now they cut you off if you start having fun and get too loud.

If you managed to win that shootout you deserve a drink or three or four! The here come the Nanny stater's and tell you you can't handle driving!

[slackmaster]

53. I don't know where you got your pseudo-statistics, but they're not even close to accurate

In 2010 New Hampshire had a lower rate of murders by firearm than did Massachusetts. So did several other states that have much less strict gun controls including Utah, Minnesota, Vermont, Idaho, Iowa, and both Dakotas.

Maryland and New Jersey, which are also famous for strict gun control, had higher rates. Here is data for 2010:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state

[Kalidurga]

78. there were 12,996 murders in the US. Of those, 8,775 were caused by firearms.

So, if it wasn't a gun they would use another means. But, it seems that this is the case roughly 1/3 of the time.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

54. You're doing that satirical things of yours again, aren't you? (nt)

[DiverDave]

55. I'm moving there asap

you mean they actually give the finger to the NRA??
good on em.

[WilliamPitt]

59. Win.

That billboard has been up over the Mass Pike for going on twenty years. I spend a lot of time at the Cask & Flagon just next door, and happened to be looking at that billboard when I heard that Gabby Giffords had been shot.

Rotten state, Massachusetts.

[aquart]

76. Cask & Flagon?

Medieval decor?

[WilliamPitt]

79. Quite the opposite, actually

More like the bridge of the Starship Enterprise, actually.

[Progressive dog]

60. Thanks, I'm still laughing.

[Bucky]

62. It's damn hard to parody over the top hysterics on a topic like this.

Good job.

[Gold Metal Flake]

64. I like the cut of your jib, Manny.

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I was totally not staring at your jib just then.

[awoke_in_2003]

70. Don't ask, don't tell...

[awoke_in_2003]

68. Damnit Manny...

You almost pulled me offsides again. You, sir, are the Peyton Manning of sarcasm.

[LiberalLovinLug]

69. Kick and Rec

We (through government) tell drivers to drive on only on side of the road
We tell them to buckle up
We tell them not to drive past a certain speed
In most States we tell them to buy insurance
We tell motorcyclists and bicyclists to wear helmets.

Yet these all infringe on that all-encompassing word FREEDOM
Why can't gun enthusiasts understand that sometimes, for the greater good, there must be SOME restrictions on anything-goes freedom.

But the gun laws issue is dead because all the Republicans (because they are stupid) and a great many Democrats (because they are liberal by nature) have fallen for the simplistic argument that any new gun law, even simply restricting assault weaponry or concealed hand guns, is an attack on their fundamental freedoms as a human being.

But they forget about the freedom just to live in peace without worry about living in a powder keg where everyone is packing heat.

They have truly given up, as sardonically penned by Kris Kristofferson:

"Freedom's just another word for nothin left to lose"

Its come down to that. No rational reasons, just an end-of-the-rope resignation. Sad.

[librechik]

72. you forgot the sarcasm smiley n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

74. Just for you...

Hopefully you'll return the favor if I need your help in a rolling shootout on my way to work.

[librechik]

75. my fingers are deadly weapons

I got your back

[bucolic_frolic]

81. Yeah but how many Lizzie Bordens do you have every year?

Are those without guns using other means to murder?

[FailureToCommunicate]

83. DU rec

[abelenkpe]

84. Wish CA was the same! nt

[klook]

87. But what about that knife attack

at the movie theater in Worcester? You know, the one where the nutcase killed 12 people in 2 minutes and wounded 58 more? I heard when his knife broke he switched to his hammer (purchased legally at Sears) and started going all Thor on everybody.

[Curtland1015]

91. Ah, Boston... my home away from home

I recognized these signs as soon as I opened the thread. My wife and I make a pilgrimage to Fenway at least once a year. I love Boston... if I thought I could get a good job there, we'd probably move there.