Michael Moore justifies Russia hacking of DNC because CIA helped overthrow Allende in 1973

[estefanyo]

The 44 year old coup is in the news again as Michael Moore justifies hacking of DNC, citing the 44 year old coup:

Link to tweet

Meanwhile, I searched "Crimea" in Moore's tweet history and came up with 0 hits.

[roamer65]

1. The KGB and CIA were in the manipulation of foreign governments well before Allende.

I like MM but he’s off target on this point.

1956 in Hungary, 1963 Diem in S. Vietnam and 1968 in Czechoslovakia are prime examples, along with our repeated attempts to off Castro.

[tymorial]

121. Exactly.

[roamer65]

135. Yup. Heres where there is TRULY blame on both sides.

[delisen]

2. Russia interfered in other countries long before 1973

They got the idea from Russia's own history and a corrupt former spy who wants to MRGA (Make Russia Great Again).

Michael Moore,even if he is the worst educated man in America, has got to know that.

Multi-million dollar paydays may be clouding Moore's memory, as well as visions of his future tax savings thanks to Putin's US assets- Donald Trump and the Republican Party.

But I still enjoy "Roger and Me."

[malaise]

12. So did the US

Ask Patrice Lumumba
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/poverty-matters/2011/jan/17/patrice-lumumba-50th-anniversary-assassination
<snip>

Patrice Lumumba, the first legally elected prime minister of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), was assassinated 50 years ago today, on 17 January, 1961. This heinous crime was a culmination of two inter-related assassination plots by American and Belgian governments, which used Congolese accomplices and a Belgian execution squad to carry out the deed.

Ludo De Witte, the Belgian author of the best book on this crime, qualifies it as "the most important assassination of the 20th century". The assassination's historical importance lies in a multitude of factors, the most pertinent being the global context in which it took place, its impact on Congolese politics since then and Lumumba's overall legacy as a nationalist leader.

For 126 years, the US and Belgium have played key roles in shaping Congo's destiny. In April 1884, seven months before the Berlin Congress, the US became the first country in the world to recognise the claims of King Leopold II of the Belgians to the territories of the Congo Basin.

[Ken Burch]

20. Thank you for reminding us of all that.

n/t.

[emulatorloo]

158. So we deserve Trump, huh? (American voters do no deserve this, no matter how much

“Whataboutism” folks try to shovel.) You are a sophisticated person, I know you understand that “Whataboutism” is a propaganda technique to deflect attention.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210042611

[Ken Burch]

172. No, we don't deserve Trump. He wasn't saying that at all.

You and I don't have to pretend that the U.S. approach to international affairs is morally superior to that of Russia to be able to call out Putin's interference in the process. We don't have to pretend that what he's done here is singular.

And why not?

Because we are part of the American people. The people aren't responsible for what our foreign policy tradition has been.

[quartz007]

178. +100

[delisen]

64. and how does this relate Russia interfering in our election 2016?

or what we should do about the Russian interference in 2016, or present interference in 2018, or interference going forward?

Are you proposing that U S government actions in 1961 or at other times in the past justify Russian interference in our country today the present?

Should U.S. government policies of undermining governments or acting in support of dictatorships in South American and Central American countries mean that we should be forgiving of similar measures being used on our country in 2018 and forward?

[bettyellen]

133. Exactly! Its like he wants to say alls fair because someone else broke rules once so...

There are no rules anymore. That’s what Putin wants. No, we are better than that. We need to evolve past it.

[Ken Burch]

169. No. He's simply pointing out that our government displays no righteousness

and no moral superiority in its foreign policy tradition.

We don't need to pretend that THAT's true to be able to condemn what Putin has done. We aren't the government...we are the people...the people can ALWAYS condemn what other governments do and what ours does.

It's the state that bears the shame of U.S. intervention, not you or I.

[bettyellen]

190. No righteousness? What kind of bizarre pseudo religious absolutist claptrap is that?

All this talk as if everything is black and white is over simplistic bullshit. We’ve actually also done a lot of good in the world. And much more so under Dem administrations. You’d never know it listening to you though.

[Ken Burch]

191. OK...we've done some good things in the world.

But we have no claim to intrinsic moral superiority.

And we've done grievious wrongs and have an obligation never to repeat anything like those wrongs.

What's the harm in admitting that?

[Ken Burch]

21. And WE interfered in other countries long before that.

He was simply using the overthrow of Allende as a relatively recent example.

[ananda]

30. That would be s o m e karma then,

Nt

[Cha]

27. And, there were Damn repubs in power

in 1973.. And, the ratfucking russians hacked the DNC.

[Ken Burch]

174. He wasn't blaming Dems for the overthrow of Allende.

We don't have to pretend our government's actions in other countries are morally infallible to be able to call out what Russian interference in our elections.

The goal should be to have a world where NO country interferes in other countries' political processes, economic systems, or internal affairs-not that nobody other than OUR country does it.

[whathehell]

83. Roger and Me

Is that the only film of his you've seen?... Seriously?

[delisen]

101. I did not say it was the only film I've seen, did I?

I said I enjoyed it.

Also it stands as evidence that the failure of the rust belt economies goes way back in time.

[whathehell]

103. No

Is that the only one you enjoyed?

[delisen]

126. It is the one I chose to share my reaction as viewer

Is this an authoritarian interrogation?

[whathehell]

128. Riiiight

but no..this is not an " authoritarian investigation".

[still_one]

3. what a f**king idiot.

[Cha]

5. There's that..

still_one~

[still_one]

36. Hey Cha. This is no the first time Moore makes himself look like an ass. During the Women's march

in Washington, which was occurring nationwide in a lot of cities, the organizers were working to unite people for women's rights, and against what trump was doing, Moore was given a spot as a speaker, and instead of going with the theme of unity for women's rights, he instead decided to use the event to criticize Democrats, at which point Ashley Judd came forward and interrupted Moore mid-rant, and effectively told him to go away.

Previous to that I had both positive and negative feelings about Moore, but his decision to try to turn a unifying event into a rant to criticize Democrats pretty much wrote Moore off in my book, and brought back memories of 2000 where he actively campaigned for Nader, spewing the same LIE that Sarandon and Stein have been spewing that there was no difference between Democrats and republicans.

There is a time and a place for something, and the Women's march was NOT the event to trash the Democratic party, just as 2000 was not the election to encourage people not to vote for Al Gore.

I am so over the Michael Moore's, Jill Stein's, Ralph Nader's, and Susan Sarandon's

[Cha]

41. Yeah, I remember that.. moore was seriously tone deaf..

Good on Ashley Judd! Somebody had to get the hook.

As I wrote in another post or two.. Nixon and Kissinger were in power in 1973 and the Russians hacked the DNC to RF with our Democratic election.

And, as thesquanderer stated..

"It is not surprising that Russia would try to interfere.

The bigger issue is that the Trump administration cooperated."

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10041516

[Eliot Rosewater]

143. Jesus, Michael. This is the argument used by

KGB bots on the internet all the time.

Michael Moore is not a KGB bot, he is an American hero, but boy did he pick a TERRIBLE time to talk about this!

[still_one]

160. no, that was exposed decades ago by the Church commision, journalists, and books. What I am

saying is that Moore's tweet which says:

"Where did the Russians ever get the idea of interfering in who other countries choose as their president? "

is either justifying the alleged Russian interference in our 2016 election, by saying we deserve it, or if he is a complete idiot, saying that we gave the idea of interfering in other countries elections to the Russians, implying they didn't do it before we gave them the idea.

I'll also add that Moore was full of shit in 2000 when he campaigned for Ralph Nader saying there was no difference between republicans and Democrats.

but in spite of Moore, the Obama administration negotiated a nuclear agreement with Iran, and established relations with Cuba, which are currently on the precipice of being thrown away because of the results of 2016,

so at this important time to try to stop the undoing of everything good the Obama administration has done, along with establishment Democrats, from Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, EPA, civil rights, voting rights, workers rights, women's rights, gay rights, the environment, etc, Mr. Moore believes it is his duty to distract people from the Mueller investigation from this little tidbit from the Nixon administration, as though people were not aware. He did this same negative garbage in 2016

During the Women's March for unity and women's rights, Mr. Moore was given an opportunity to speak at that event, and instead of going with the theme of the March concerning Women's Rights and unity, Mr. Moore took the opportunity to slam the Democrats, until Ashley Judd, justifiably interrupted him mid-rant, to bring the conversation back to what the organizers wanted to focus on, NOT WHAT MR. MOORE who had NOTHING TO DO WITH THOSE ORGANIZING THAT MARCH wanted to do.

Jones winning in Alabama had NOTHING to do with Michael Moore. Mueller's investigation has nothing to do with Michael Moore, and the 2018 election will have nothing to do with Michael Moore either. It must really bite him that he isn't getting the attention he so desperately craves

There is a time and a place for everything, and with the 2018 election right around the corner, Moore's timing is as predictable as the sunrise

[Clarity2]

163. 100% agree

MM spent a lot of time trashing hillary. People forget that. I never saw any of his movies, but I suspect he probably trashed the dems during them too.

Never trusted the man.

[JNelson6563]

4. Surprised he didn't blame Hillary.

He lives in my area. When I heard him speak he literally had no understanding of how politics worked at the time. Clueless on finan regs etc. Doling out completely wrong "wisdom" at the podium. For a VERY long time. (Likes the sound of his own voice too much I think).

While he's all for the little guy and stuff he's truly in an ivory tower my friends. Sorry but it's true.

[Cha]

6. Mahalos, Julie!

[JNelson6563]

8. Back atcha Cha!

[whathehell]

102. Nonsense..

I don't know when you "heard him speak", but I'm guessing it was a quite awhile ago.

You claim he "literally had no understanding of how politics worked at the time", but your only example is his supposed lack of knowledge of "fin regs'"?

He "likes the sound of his own voice"?...Maybe, but many others do too, which is why he's a successful writer and international award winning filmmaker....Just sayin'.

[JNelson6563]

127. Oh hey, no denying his great films

Yeah, it was a while back, when he first was hitting the local podiums. I thought the most interesting part of that episode was how he didn't hesitate to go on at length about things he clearly had no knowledge of. Have been to several events where he spoke. He speaks for a very long time.

He's got plenty of redeeming qualities and has done some great stuff in our community. None of this negates anything else I've stated.

You'll just have to accept it: He has some faults. Sorry to see this seems to be an upsetting thing for you.

[whathehell]

131. Lol

In your dreams, honey...If I got "upset" by every empty opinion I saw on this board, I'd have never survived.

Have a good one.

[JNelson6563]

193. "In your dreams honey"?

Interesting.

[whathehell]

194. I thought so..

[JI7]

7. fuck him

[Crunchy Frog]

9. The Russians were pulling that kind of shit right along with us.

I respect Michael Moore, but can't support this particular interpretation of history.

[Ken Burch]

18. Yes, they were, but that doesn't discredit his point.

He was simply saying our government has no claim to moral superiority on this point.

[PatrickforO]

28. Sad but true. Still, the current situation offends much more than those old Russian and American

cold war machinations because it is us being manipulated. In this case, what is good for the goose doesn't seem good for the gander. At all.

[thesquanderer]

33. It is not surprising that Russia would try to interfere.

The bigger issue is that the Trump administration cooperated.

[Cha]

35. Excellent point, thesquanderer

[delisen]

105. Apparently it was surprising to many people.

[bettyellen]

132. And a Reagan made a deal w hostages... so hi did it too

Excuses it? This is more “they’re all the same” bullshit. Same talking points Trump is using. We believe it was wrong then and is wrong now. “He did it first” is for children. And the GOP.

[treestar]

173. And we were claiming, at least, to be

helping spread Democracy/Freedom or whatever. The Soviets were spreading their totalitarianism.

[malaise]

10. It is you who miss the point

Moore is merely pointing out that the US has meddled in more than elections in several countries - it has been involved in executing leaders who do not support the US agenda. These countries are also sovereign nations.

[Raine]

14. Yes exactly

the US has always meddled, MM is only pointing that out, not defending it.

[malaise]

16. Precisely

And unless people wake up and realize that there are folks. who don't give a damn about freedom, democracy or sovereignty as long as their power and wealth increase and they are free to exploit anyone they choose, we will all lose. The current ReTHUG party would ban the Democratic Party in America in a nano-second if they could.

[G_j]

57. Yes, he did not attempt to justify anything.

Last edited Sun Dec 31, 2017, 02:28 PM - Edit history (1)

people’s understanding of language seems to be deteriorating miserably.

[delisen]

114. Michael Moore & Donald Trump

Not focusing on the clear and present danger.

Trump used the same deflection technique when confronted about journalists and opposition leaders being killed it Putin's Russia.

http://fortune.com/2017/02/05/trump-putin-us-not-so-innocent/

President Donald Trump said he respects Vladimir Putin, and when told the Russian leader is “a killer,” Trump said the United States has many of them.

“What do you think? Our country’s so innocent?” he told Fox’s Bill O’Reilly in a taped interview aired Sunday on the Super Bowl pregame show

During Putin’s years in power, a number of prominent Russian opposition figures and journalists have been killed

[G_j]

150. Trump actually was round aboutly justifying Russian interference

Moore was making an observation, whether one feels it’s accurate, or not.
Many of us would consider Trump to be criminally suspect in the election meddling. I really can’t equate the two.

[Owl]

85. Exactly

[ornotna]

94. Yes

Another divide and conquer post.

[malaise]

96. You nailed it

[Fred Sanders]

99. Seems lately lots of posts "misinterpretating" what liberals say. False posts.

NYT expose of Shitler's dementia resulted in more criticism of the reporter than the brain dead ramblings of Deaf Leader.

[malaise]

119. Divide and rule

You're so right

[emulatorloo]

164. Maybe well-meaning liberals should avoid engaging in Whataboutisms

[2naSalit]

117. +1

[David__77]

155. The US should stop supporting coups and regime change.

...

[shanny]

185. Amen.

[bathroommonkey76]

11. How about the Iranian coup in 1953?

[malaise]

13. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

It is the collective failure to acknowledge the truth that brought us where we are today.

[suffragette]

165. It is the collective failure to acknowledge the truth that brought us where we are today.

So very damn true.

And the very people who worked to implement harmful actions such as these and Watergate and Iran Contra and torture and extraordinary rendition were allowed to skate and have continued to exert influence and power, with some of them guiding Trump’s ascendency.

We seem to have cycled back to a ‘love it or hate it’ mindset which allows no room for examination of when specific policies were/are inappropriate or not. I’m not given to all or nothing thinking so it is very off-putting to me.

[malaise]

168. Very well said

Happy New Year sis

[suffragette]

181. Happy New Year back at ya, sis!

[roamer65]

136. One where we teamed up with the masters of this stuff, the British.

You don’t build an empire upon which the Sun does not set by being nice.

[bathroommonkey76]

188. Building an empire

from lies and deceit will make any nation's foundation crumble.

[nocalflea]

15. What a guy.

This is OUR democracy asshole.

Whatabout giving a fuck and showing your country some love.

[shanny]

22. "My country, right or wrong."

Ugh

[nocalflea]

39. How binary. Ugh.

Simplification of a complex issue.

Since you give me no other options, when all is said and done, yes, this is my country. Et tu ?

Intent is significant, it is meaningful. Context is everything. Making whatabout generalizations is cheap. It is easy. It requires no thinking and expects no thoughtful response.

At a time when we are fighting for our democracy, in who's interest is Mr Moore's thoughtless, contextless, whataboutism statement serving ?

Who benefits by the "we did it too" talkingpoint ? What excuses are Trump and his supporters going to make in an attempt to "absolve " him of his crimes ?

And all the usual suspects who are weighing in with the "that's not what he meant" excuse can kiss my US democracy loving ass.

[shanny]

49. "Whatabout giving a fuck

and showing your country some love."

This is what you posted, then you complain about other people's over-simplification and whataboutism? And then you want to have a conversation?

[KPN]

115. +1000!! Kudos!

[shanny]

118. ...

[malaise]

56. If you don't give a damn about the rights of citizens in sovereign countries

Last edited Sun Dec 31, 2017, 10:11 AM - Edit history (1)

you'll never be able to remain democratic.
You are not a little d democrat if you support overthrowing foreign governments.
When the majority leader can deny Obama the right to give a nominated judge a hearing, you'd better start questioning his interest in democracy.
This ReTHUG party would ban the Democratic Party in a nano-second if they could get away with it.
It's no different than what the US has done in other countries.

[G_j]

59. You ought to research some of MLK Jr.s statements on US foreign policy

Last edited Sun Dec 31, 2017, 10:51 AM - Edit history (1)

Then you might have a far more serious Archie Bunker moment.

[roamer65]

137. Where is ol Senator Henry Jackson when we need him?

An avid liberal progressive, but good anti-Russian.

He would be letting the Russians have it right now.

[Ken Burch]

17. He wasn't justifying what Putin did at all.

He was simply pointing out that the US has done many things in other countries that are comparable to what Putin did in our election.
and
It doesn't justify Russian meddling in our elections to note that our government has no claim to mora superiority when it comes to interfering in the internal affairs of other countries.

It was indefensible for Putin to meddle in our election.

It was equally indefensible for the US government to aid and abet military coups throughout Latin America, to invent and arm a bandit army to terrorize the people of Nicaragua into voting out the Sandinistas, to help the South African apartheid regime locate an capture Nelson Mandela, to bomb Iraq, Afghanistan, Cambodia and Vietnam, to help overthrow Patrice Lumumba in Congo, and to take half of Mexico's territory in an unprovoked invasion.

We don't have to pretend our country has been led by saints and never been in the wrong about what it has done to other countries just to condemn what Putin did.

This OP smears Michael Moore, claiming he took a position he didn't take at all.

[malaise]

25. Excellent post

We can add Guyana and Jamaica to the list and several other countries

[Achilleaze]

31. Thank you

Moore in no way justifies anything. He calls it to account. The subject line of the OP is false and misleading.

[still_one]

38. Actully he was saying the Russians got their ideas about interferring in foreign elections from

the U.S., and that is a lie.

He also said in 2000 there was no difference between Democrats and republicans when he was campaigning for Ralph Nader, and that is also a lie

[John Fante]

60. Excellent point.

[Ken Burch]

175. He's campaigned for Dems since then

And that isn't actually a fair characterization of his position on 2000:

Two weeks before the election, he was on tv begging Ralph to stop campaigning in Florida.

[bettyellen]

192. Thats kind of the point- he swings all over the place- doing damage then trying to undo it like a

fool. He’s gotten used to the attention you get from people by stoking their outrage. It’s manipulative bullshit. He’s really made an ass of himself the last few years.

[Fred Sanders]

97. ONE REC is all you need to know about this shockingly WRONG interpretation. Up is down?

[OhioBlue]

154. Thank you for your intelligent post

The OP is fabricating outrage and misrepresenting Moores tweet. It also does a disservice to Americans to minimize the depth of what the US has done and the long term consequences.

[shanny]

19. Y'know, pointing out that our hands

are not clean is not the same as "justifying" another country's bad acts. It is pointing out our hypocrisy.

The first step toward fixing a problem is acknowledging that there is one.

[Ken Burch]

23. Absolutely.

n/t.

[malaise]

26. The first step towars fixing a problem is acknowledging that there is one

[still_one]

40. Acknowledging a poblem is one thing, but implying that the Russinas got the idea of interferring

in other countries elections from the U.S. is a lie.

Long before Michael Moore came on the scene, it was widely reported the nefarious activities of the CIA, and blunders of our foreign policy, not only through journalists, but books that were written at the time.

[shanny]

58. Fair point. Does it destroy

the larger point? That we have done what Russia did multiple times? And now we are whining?

I think we should investigate this, work to prevent future occurrences, reform our own policies and APOLOGIZE.

Now that we know how it feels.

[whathehell]

88. Fuck "whining"..

and moralizing too, for that matter...We need to save our asses right now -- The "I told you sos" can wait.

[shanny]

100. Have a good day.

[whathehell]

104. You too!

[still_one]

142. It isn't the "I told you so", because Moore isn't really stating something that isn't known,

it is his guise of trying to somehow "justify" the alleged Russian inference, by implying, "we did it in the past, so we are getting what we deserve"

That is utter bullshit, and is typical of Moore's style, and serves as a distraction at a time we can least afford it.

He did the same type of garbage in 2000 when campaigning for Ralph Nader by trying to persuade people there was no difference between republicans and Democrats.

Actually, I am agreeing with you. There is a time and a place for everything, and this isn't the time to set up a distraction away from interference in our election system by a foreign power, and collusion of this administration with that foreign power to win the election.

[still_one]

138. I agree with you in regarding to exposing/investigating our misdeeds, working to prevent future

occurrences, and reform our own policies.

The Church Committee did investigate the activities of the CIA, that and other journalistic reports left no doubt on our involvement in the coup, and as far as I am aware no apology or compensation has ever been made to Chile because of our involvement there.

However, in matters of reforming our policies and working to prevent future foreign policy blunders, elections set the direction for that.

It should be noted though that the Obama administration succeeded in obtaining a nuclear treaty with Iran, established relations with Cuba, and other significant agreements or statements of direction to try and set a future direction for mistakes of the past. Of course, not everything was a success, and much of that was due to the damage that the bush and the Reagan administration's foreign policy had done.

When Bill Clinton left office, he was personally involved in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, which when Bush won the election, was quickly discarded and ignored. Bill Clinton commissioned Hart and Rudman to report on National Security recommendations, and the bush administration, through Dick Cheney threw that report away, which not only stated the real risk for a 9/11 attack, but also measures needed to prevent it.

With trump in the WH trying to undo everything positive thing that the Obama Administration accomplished, it looks grim indeed that we will be able to forge a new positive direction in our foreign policy, and in fact I am quite concerned that we are perilously close to initiating another war

[shanny]

147. Elections do set directions, but it seems to me

that, despite differences between parties, there is in fact no "peace party"; that it is just a given that we have this ginormous military in order to use it. Sometimes we are smarter, but we are always meddling. Yes, Obama got a nuclear deal with Iran...but he also escalated a pointless, unwinnable war in Afghanistan and dramatically stepped up drone warfare all over the place. Those moves didn't make us any friends in the region (I don't know if we did more than a "no-fly zone" in Libya; there are certainly rumors but I haven't seen confirmation either way). Truman messed with Syria (1949), Kennedy with Cuba, Clinton in Haiti, even Carter set in motion tragic events in Afghanistan, and of course everybody involved effed up Vietnam.

If I had any faith in Congress I would say that we need a new Church Committee. Since I don't, I believe an independent Truth and Reconciliation Committee would be better.

Don't get me wrong: we've done some good things too. I just think too frequently we act, if not in our own interests, then solely from our own viewpoint, not taking into account either local wishes or long-term effects. And then we have a changing of the guard (election) and tear off in a new direction. We used to have more continuity, and consensus (before the twin wreckers of Cheney and tRump) with a career State Dept. to smooth over these transitions, but in my view even then State was overshadowed by DoD.

I agree we may be close to another war. I doubt with Russia, given tRump's fanboy status re Putin...but he could find the need to express his manly manliness and bomb NK. Best we can hope for is that more tongue baths from Pukes in Congress / Cabinet will keep him distracted.

(We are so fucked!)

[whathehell]

87. Books and movies....Has no one here seen "Missing"?

True story of an American tortured & killed during an American backed South American coup in the 70's.

.Costa Gravas film starting Jack Lemon & Sissy Spacek

[shanny]

106. Sure. Coup was in Chile, btw, Sept 11, 1973.

That Fucker Kissinger--whose pet project it was--received the Nobel Peace Prize 2 months later, supposedly for ending the Vietnam war (which didn't end until 1975).

[whathehell]

108. Right...Great film -- Terrible aituation

I'm surprised not many seem to know about it.

[shanny]

116. I remember it well. It was an excellent movie

but also because my now-husband was there. He had just taken a great vacation to the Lake District (made possible largely by the hyper-inflation caused by US govt) and returned to the capital the day of (btw, a US military muckety-muck he met in the hotel bar advised him several days before not to go back to Santiago, but of course he ignored it). He and his Chilena girlfriend had to escape overland through Bolivia and Peru (bad, bad things were happening to even non-political people who could have gotten the story out; airports closed; army in the streets).

He became political that day.

[tomp]

98. the Russians were learning from the US/West....

....since prior to the revolution of 1917. The US and European powers engaged in so much sabotage of the Russian revolution, i.e., progress from czarism, that they were essentially on a war/self-defense footing from the very beginning. I believe this is what led the Russian revolution astray. Yes, they absolutely learned from the US/West.

[delisen]

125. Russian Power Players Led Their Revolution astray.

Maybe they needed to build a Great Wall around their revolution to keep it safe from the very early 20th century America-which was hardly the powerhouse it became after World war !!.

I don't think so.

Russia learned from its Czars.

[Kentonio]

145. Are you aware that the US and Britain invaded Russia after WW1?

Because I wasn't until a few years ago, despite being an avid student of war history.

[delisen]

157. Thank you for reminding me. I had indeed forgotten n/t

[delisen]

95. I'd like to fix the Russian problem-because it's happening now.

I have no objection toddling with the hypocrisy problem-but that is a long list and goes all the way back to 1492 for us and much further for many countries. Plus I'm not a time traveler with the power to change the past.

I want to focus on the clear and present danger and do not want to give any support or even philosophical escape holes for the anti-democracy Russian dictator and his collaborators.

Anyone can focus on hypocrisy problem instead-that is what Trump did when confronted about Russia. It may have bought him some time and space to inflict more damage on us.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

24. whoosh

as the kids say

[ornotna]

167. I know, right

Another shit stirring post. Obvious.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

189. It is also a case of people being unable or unwilling

to hold two thoughts in their brainpan at the same time without freaking out.

[PatrickforO]

29. Interesting thread.

This nation needs to come to terms with slavery, genocide and imperialism for sure.

At the same time, it doesn't feel too good when Russia is doing it to us.

[Cha]

32. nixon and kissinger were in power

in 1973... the Russians hacked the DNC

bush and cheney did a lot of tragic shite, too.. but not in my name.

[still_one]

43. There is no question major bludners in our foreign policy occurred, and it involved our interference

in a foreign countries election. Books and articles have been extensively written, so that Moore is pointing out our involvement in the overthrow of Allende is well known and acknowledged.

However, what Moore's tweet is incorrectly saying is that it is because of the U.S. involvement in the over-throwing of some foreign governments, that is where Russia got the idea from, and that is an intentional lie.

It also minimizes the possible interference of Russia in the 2016 election by creating a distraction, and implicitly justifying it by pointing out that the U.S. has done it in the past, so we "kind of deserve it". That is utter garbage.

[Cha]

50. Well said, still_one!

And why doesn't moore mention trump was involved, too? Didn't he freaking ask them to hack Hillary's emails in one of his rally speeches? ..

Oh, but the poor blameless russians wouldn't have even thought of hacking our DNC without Nixon and Kissinger showing them the blueprint.

[still_one]

51. All true Cha. This is typical Moore trying to call attention to himself

[Cha]

52. Yep.. and thank you

for doing such a good job deconstructing his pointless tweet.

[delisen]

130. Will Moore the courage to confront King Putin and his vassal Trump?

or does he just want to clothe the rest of us in historical ashes and sackcloth while we do battle.

[mcar]

107. This!

It also minimizes the possible interference of Russia in the 2016 election by creating a distraction, and implicitly justifying it by pointing out that the U.S. has done it in the past, so we "kind of deserve it". That is utter garbage.

Trump used this tactic in an interview to justify Russian atrocities. " Well, we've done it too" implies that it's either OK or justified.

[treestar]

171. Yes, guess which party is in power when it happens

And it was over 40 years ago - today, it would be a lot harder for the CIA to do comparable things.

Happy New Year, Cha!

[Cha]

176. Yeah, mm's tweet is totally

irrelevant but way to distract from Mueller's investigation and get the attention on him.

Happy New Year, treestar!

[shanny]

187. Fwiw

http://theweek.com/speedreads/658320/unearthed-2006-audio-clinton-appears-suggest-rigging-palestine-election

Even our heroes have terrible ideas sometimes. And sometimes they get acted upon.
I'd like to see a default setting of non-
Interference, myself.

[nitpicker]

34. IMO, the OP misinterpreted Moore's response

I think Moore was not justifying the Russian hacking of the DNC, but noting the past involvement/meddling of the US with foreign governments. Of course the Soviets were doing some of the same things, either directly or through proxies, such as Cuban troops in Angola
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_intervention_in_Angola
And other things before then.

So I think Moore's statement did not fully take into account prior Soviet/Russian activity.

[whathehell]

91. Correct...and Michael Moore doesn't need to "call attention to himself"

He's already a well-known and well respected filmmaker and spokesman of the Left.

[TexasProgresive]

37. Regardless whether it's ethical every intelligence agency interferes where they will.

It doesn't make it right but there you go. The United States of America believed that the whole of the Americas was our sphere of influence. You might say our play ground and no other country was allowed to interfere. That's probably why there is so much angst about Cuba because they turned to the Soviets for aid when we turned against them.

[Vogon_Glory]

42. We may have done the same things. So what?

We may have done the same things in Chile before Allende’s election and in other countries, too.

At the risk of sounding hypocritical, I don’t see why we have to stand still for it when it happens to us. Investigate, indict, prosecute!

[still_one]

47. Absolutely. They are independent events. Because of what we did in Chile, in no way justifies the

alleged Russian interference in our election.

Our actions in Chile in the 70's were exposed, and it was widely reported in newspapers and books

[shanny]

55. Not "may." "Did."

There and elsewhere. Public records are available.

That said, IMO MM is more concerned about reforming our government than excusing Russia's. That's been the focus of all his work, after all.

[Vogon_Glory]

67. Im not disputing US meddling in Chile and other places

Nor do I endorse Russian meddling in our elections.

But I confess there’s a certain savage satisfaction that goes with dusting off old epithets like “stooges of the Kremlin” used by the Far Right on progressives and using them on today’s Republicans/“conservatives.”

[shanny]

68. I'm with you there!

[whathehell]

89. We don't.

We need to fight back -- The hand-wringing "Ain't America Awful"? chorus can wait.

[uponit7771]

112. +1, such an overt straw man

[Cicada]

44. The USA assassinates foreign leaders, we dont stoop to reading their mail

A gentleman does not read the mail of another. Shame on Russia.

[Squinch]

45. He's not justifying anything. He's simply pointing out the fact that this happened.

You joined to post this?

[Cicada]

46. If America does it, it isnt a crime

Nixon was so right when he reminded us of that.

Why can’t Michael Moore just agree with our country, right or wrong. What is wrong with him?

[still_one]

48. The Church Committee exposed the nefarious activities in U.S. foreign policy, and it was President

Clinton I believe who released documents exposing the U.S. involvement in the overthrow of the government. Also, major newspapers reported on what happened in Chile, along with books that exposed the upheaval that the U.S. contributed to at the time it happened.

Moore's tweet is not so subtly justifying that any alleged interference in our election by a foreign government is deserved because of our foreign policy, and that is bullshit.

Both events were wrong.

Moore also stated in 2000 that there was no difference between Democrats and republicans when campaigning for Ralph Nader, and that is also bullshit

[Cicada]

65. I agree, both Russia and the USA were wrong

My view is that as a nation we don’t have a right to be moralistic about Russian interference. We have a right to jail those we catch, we have a right to punish Russia, we have a right to condemn such interference. We just don’t have a right to claim that their nation is dirty and ours is clean.

I think Moore has a right to point that out.

And I am think it is likely we continue to interfere in foreign elections and have never stopped.

I can be wrong of course.

[whathehell]

53. Not sure that he's "justifying" it..

He's saying "us too" -- In the past, at least.

[GoCubsGo]

54. Yeah, I figured as much.

Low post count...Check
Brings up a prominent liberal...Check
Totally misrepresents what prominent liberal says...Check

Glad to see that most aren't falling for this trolling.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

70. The Reagan Democrats agree.

[GoCubsGo]

74. Agree with what?

That this person is misrepresenting Moore's point? Nobody is saying that Moore is wrong. We're just saying that he isn't justifying the DNC hack. He's just pointing out that foreign interference in elections is nothing new.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

75. With the OP and the love it or leave it mentality

Moore is correct

[GoCubsGo]

84. Yes, but I wasn't trying to argue that he isn't correct.

I was pointing out that the OP is misrepresenting what Moore tweeted. Whatever. You just keep being you.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

122. I was agreeing wth you.

The local "Moore is fat" crowd is the he same group that says Sigle Payer insurance is "free stuff"

I was agreeing with your statement "most aren't falling for this trolling" - but some are

I could have been mor clear.

[GoCubsGo]

144. Okie dokie.

I find it hard to tell sometimes. No biggie. The Moore bashers a minority. I tend to ignore that. I kind of have mixed feelings about him. But, when he's right, he's right--which is more often than not.

[Arazi]

82. Yup. Completely predictable who'd agree with this bullshit too

[rzemanfl]

61. ITT, Dita Beard, contributions to the RNC. 21st Century politics in the 20th. n/t

[fishwax]

62. that's not justifying any such thing

[klook]

63. Uh... welcome to DU.

Not recommending this thread, but hey, don't take it personally.

[dembotoz]

66. As usual mm speaks truth.. may not like it but it's truth

[still_one]

146. What truth? This was known and exposed decades ago by the Church Commission, the media, and

books

All Moore is trying to do is get attention for himself, while creating a distraction, intentionally or non-intentionally on the current Mueller investigation.

Moore always had great timing, like in 2000 when campaigning for Ralph Nader and telling us there was no difference between Democrats and republicans

[dembotoz]

148. Obviously I respect mm more than u

Amazing how mm is a du punching bag

[RandiFan1290]

69. Welcome Back to DU!

[Squinch]

72. Yep.

[stonecutter357]

71. fuck him and trump.

[NurseJackie]

73. He's a clown. An total ass. A complete fraud. I can't stand him.

He's as bad as Sarandon and Cornel West.

[justhanginon]

80. Totally agree!

[KG]

76. I lulz'd

[salin]

78. o/t

Happy New Year KG!

[KG]

90. and to you!

[jalan48]

79. More divisive nonsense.

[bronxiteforever]

81. Welcome to DU-interesting journal you have.

[GoCubsGo]

86. Yeah, cool sources, too.

RT, FoxNews...

[Snotcicles]

124. +1 nt

[Hoyt]

92. Fact is, we've interfere with a lot of elections. Russia just did it better and we weren't prepared

to counter them. Hopefully, someone is working on that now. Time to quit concentrating on bombs and prepare for cyber war, etc.

[jrthin]

93. The Kremlin Left speaks again. nt

[ornotna]

109. Who is the Kremlin left?

[whathehell]

111. Lol..Some people here who think Progressives and "the Left"

are two very different things.

[KG]

113. from what i gather, those that don't genuflect at the mere mention of the dem party.

[jrthin]

123. I stole the usage of this term from

One of the posters here. He/she used the term to explain those on the far left who seem to be supportive of Russian and Russian's actions. I like the term as it explains what I was unable to put into words. For example, I loved listening to Pacifica. But during the election cycle, and to some extent, now, the station became unrecognizable to me as some of the hosts seem to be perfectly fine with Russia's actions.

[ornotna]

166. And you think Michael Moore "seems" to support Russia?

Is that what you're saying?

[David__77]

152. A dream of new McCarthyites.

...

[KPN]

110. Did you come to DU recently to sow

division? Just asking because you put a spin on MMs tweet that inaccurately describes his observation.

[tymorial]

120. The correct answer Michael Moore is the Soviets

That is not to say the US is clean. 20 years prior to 73 we assisted Britain with orchestrating the Iranian coup d'etat in operation Ajax.

[L. Coyote]

129. OFCS, can't you make up something more interesting, like Michael Moore goes on shooting rampage.

Lying about Moore "justifying" Russian actions is just so boring If you are going to make shit up, do it right ....

[BannonsLiver]

139. Typical JPR style worldview

The United States has done some bad shit in the past so we dererve all that and much more in return and have no right to complain about it.

[roamer65]

141. The real question.

The Russians messed around in OUR electoral process. Are we going to take it lying down or fight them? I say we fight fire with fire. Fuck the Russian fascists.

[David__77]

151. I think its fine to clearly condemn US interference.

The US has a long history of interference and subversion abroad, with both Democratic and Republican administrations. I see nothing wrong with criticizing that. At the same time, those actions don’t necessarily excuse the actions of other parties, like Russia.

[MustLoveBeagles]

183. +1

[peggysue2]

156. Karma Porn

Owning up to our mistakes is fine. Particularly if we learn from the past; sadly, we often don't. That being said--

Making a false equivalency between the former Soviet Union (you might recall Stalin from the history books) or Putin's mafia state to the United States is (as one tweeter put it) Karma porn. Because the people suffering under the Trumpster and his acolytes had nothing to do with Allende's overthrow. Those would include children who will be losing their healthcare, cancer patients no longer receiving treatment, seniors & the disabled thrown out of their care-taking arrangements, immigrants torn from their families, those who have relied on Meals-on-Wheels for basic nutrition, etc., etc., etc.

Need I go on?? We did not deserve 9/11 nor did we deserve a Putin client installed in the WH.

There's a point when a self-righteous confessor, someone who expects his side to be moral in all things becomes no better than the the most venal ideologue. Then the argument itself becomes damaging and obscene. No the United States is far from perfect. As a country we've made plenty of mistakes. But we've also done good around the world.

Again, read our history. Then compare it to tsarist Russia, Stalin and Putin's mafia state. Don't let the trolls or Russian apologists make the stupid case that all things are equal.

Because they're not.

[MustLoveBeagles]

184. Thank you

You said it better than I could have.

[peggysue2]

186. You're welcome

We need to remember who we are, warts and all, but not let the propagandists define or reduce us as a people, a country.

We stand on the shoulders of giants. We need to remember that, always, to reach for a more perfect Union. We are worth the effort, the trouble.

[emulatorloo]

159. Textbook case of Whataboutism propaganda technique. Americans dont deserve a Putin puppet

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210042611

[Bradical79]

161. Going to pretend the KGB wasn't a thing now?

Or the U.S.S.R.? Russia didn't learn this stuff from us. They were up to their elbows in that sort of thing at the same time we were. Moore should be smarter than this.

[thbobby]

162. American involvement in the

Overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953.

Russia's hands are not clean of interfering in the democratic process, BUT America also has dirty hands. This is just one example, but there are many others. We would do well to remember them and own them because other countries have not forgotten.

[tenderfoot]

170. That's not what he said.

but nice try.

[Sneederbunk]

177. Whataboutism serves as a distraction.

[left-of-center2012]

179. We overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran in the early 1950's ...

... to install the brutal dictatorship of the Shah of Iran.

And we invaded and overthrew a number of Latin American and Caribbean countries
over the past 100+ years.

That's our history, like it or not.

As our parents used to say:

"Do as I say, not as I do"

[IluvPitties]

180. Two wrongs...

[JI7]

182. How come we don't get the' whataboutisms' when it comes to Israel

[Blue_Tires]

195. So if we're discussing Chile '73 we also have to discuss Ethiopia '74, right??

Oh, right... Nobody wants to have THAT conversation, do they?

[jalan48]

196. Henry K's baby-glad we don't have any Democrats that cotton to Henry.

[RandiFan1290]

197. Bye, troll. nt

[A-Schwarzenegger]

198. Hardly knew ye, poor disruptor ...