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[kydo]

This message was self-deleted by its author (kydo) on Thu Feb 15, 2018, 11:34 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[BigmanPigman]

1. This group is mainly male too.

99% of violent gun acts are by men. Women turn their anger and sadness inward and harm themselves while men cause harm to others before they harm themselves (note the suicides AFTER a shooting).
https://www.vox.com/cards/gun-violence-facts/guns-domestic-violence-united-states-risk

[kydo]

5. Yes!

There are so many things in the profiling of this group. A profiler would tell us this group is, mostly white, mostly male and many other "mostly's." We don't want to talk about that. It's a mental loner issue. Nothing to see here. Now when the killer was a darker shade of white, oh say, brown or black. Then we will talk about it being a terrorist attack or gang bad people. We must do everything we can so those people can't do mass killings. It's messed up! All these are acts of terror. No matter the color of the skin or the religious beliefs of the killer.

It has to stop!

[sinkingfeeling]

2. My question is why white shooters are always described as

having mental issues, but black or foreign shooters are
never allowed to have emotional issues. They are immediately labeled as 'thugs, 'criminals or 'terrorists'.

[MaryMagdaline]

3. It's difficult to talk about male violence

It is a given in this country that men have a right to be violent as an expression of their freedom. We descend from people who massacred a whole race of people and enslaved another race. Even if our ancestors came later, we are made to feel obligated to the killers who "settled" this country for our white asses. Time to say time's up.

Why is it hard to talk about it? I have some family members with mental illness and others who are gun nuts. I would not have them visit me because of their violent talk. God forbid the mental health genes get mixed with the violent genes.

There are men in my own gene pool I would not confront.

[loyalsister]

4. Scapegoating is a failed strategy

People who are mentally ill are stigmatized quite enough without operating with an assumption that they are a population prone to violence.

[kydo]

6. Exactly! That was my first point.

I am not scapegoating.

[loyalsister]

10. You contradict yourself

"This is the group that causes the bulk of the problem" is exactly scapegoating.

[kydo]

16. I did not contrdict myself. That quote was the second point.

Here is my quote about the part you mis read.

First it's more than just what most people think. We know most people with most common diagnosed mental problems are the least likely to commit these mass shootings. But cutting mental health funds for services only makes this problem worse. More people will fall through the cracks and peoples perceptions are still out dated. However this is not the group causing the most problems.

[loyalsister]

21. My point is your second point contradicts the first

However this is not the group causing the most problems.

Then you say..
"This is the group that causes the bulk of the problem.

Those are opposing statements.

[kydo]

23. They are two different groups.

Besides. I am done. Apparently I know nothing and don't matter. Guess my post counts aren't high enough to be taken seriously. Even though I agree with you all.

Thanks for marginalizing my opinion like the rest of society does.

[kcr]

7. Scapegoating and stigmatizing is not the answer.

It won't reduce gun violence. It will only whip up more fear and hate and marginalize more people, making things worse. The problem is guns. You solve that problem, you reduce gun violence.

[kydo]

11. I am not scapegoating. And yes reduce access the amount of guns will reduce gun violence.

I am all for that.

But there is a mental health issue, that plays a huge role too. I do not mean what we normally think about mental health issues. Those are the most extreme. It's the less extreme and un diagnosed ones.

I am a big believer in therapy. I don't consider seeing a what people call "shrinks," as bad. They are GREAT! More people should be seeing them.

[kcr]

12. You are scapegoating, even if that's not your intention

This is scapegoating and it's not even factually correct: "It's my second point the emotional/personality health issue, and this might be harsh. But I don't care anymore. This is the group that causes the bulk of the problem. "

Most mentally ill people aren't violent and not all violent people are mentally ill. But the mentally ill are constantly scapegoated to the point that many people believe these myths.

[kydo]

14. See that's the problem. What's the difference between mental vs personality issues?

I am not talking about the obvious mental illness. I am talking the emotional, and personality issues. Like psychopaths, and other personality disorders.

[kcr]

18. So, it's a subject you admit you don't know much about

So why not defer to the experts who say the mentally ill as a group are not violent? See, I'm not an expert either. So, rather than assuming the mentally ill are violent because that's what the NRA, who aren't mental health experts tell me, I'll go with actual mental health experts who say they aren't.

http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php
http://jech.bmj.com/content/70/3/223
https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/mental-illness-and-violence

I think its a much better idea to make policy based on facts. Like the fact that guns are way too easy to buy. Rather than making people more fearful and hateful of a group who are already marginalized to begin with. Guns will still be too easy to get for violent people who have no business owning them and nothing will change.

[kydo]

19. Look I never assumed the mentally ill are violent.

And quite frankly your attitude towards me in this thread is rather condensing. If that was your intention, it worked, if not, sorry for mis-reading.

I agree with you about the mentally ill. They are the least likely to commit mass violence.

I am talking about the other part the mental, emotional and personality issues. The emotional and personality. The ones that most of us have or will experience at some point of our lives.

See I fall in this category. I am a recovering alcoholic. When I was drinking, I was crazy. I like to think I am not crazy like that anymore. In December I will have 18 years of sobriety.

One thing I learned was never assume. It just makes an ass of you and me.

I never assumed anything.

I prefer facts and honest debates.

My point is, we, as a society, get stuck on the first word in this issue, mental illness and assume it means all mental health. I want to talk about the personality and emotional part of this issue. But apparently it's not allowed I am scapegoating and part of the problem.

Too bad, as I agree with you on most every thing. I am for more gun control. Assault weapons, massive magazines and all those armor piercing bullets have zero place in our society. Those are for the military.

I agree just focusing on mental illness, and people of color is wrong. That's not what I was doing. I was trying to talk about the things we don't address, like the uncle that's full of hate, fear and rage yet owns a small arsenal. Or his son that is from dysfunctional family is with his dad sees his guns and is also full of rage, hate and anger. The cultural idea that only strength and power is important.

Fuck it! I will go back to just lurking. Being talked down too sucks.

[kcr]

22. I don't mean to be condescending. I'm going based on what you write.

I guess I simply do not understand what you're saying then. Maybe you're not being clear. I pointed out how your phrasing is actually scapegoating even if it wasn't your intention, whether you're explicitly talking about mentally ill people or just people with bad personalities or whatever. It doesn't matter. You're scapegoating and all it will do is get people out with their pitchforks aiming at anyone who doesn't "seem right". I've tried to patiently explain why that's a bad idea. I'm sorry if that came across as condescending, but you seem not to get it.

[kydo]

24. Maybe I am not the that doesn't get it.

But then what do I know? I am just a person. Nothing special. Not smart not dumb, just average. Just trying to understand what's going on like the next person.

Sorry to have bothered you and the others that read what I wrote. I won't do that anymore. I will keep it to myself. It doesn't matter anyway.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

8. Any talk about gun violence must also touch on the way this country manages mental health (both as a

public health issue and on the individual level), its culture of violence, its education system, gender roles, social services and, when it comes down to it, the wealth discrepancy and the culture of win/lose, have/have nots that leads to despair. Shutting down gun access -- however that can be done, if it can be done -- should only be the first step.

[kcr]

9. But that's a separate issue that needs to be touched on anyway, even if mass shootings didn't happen

Tying the mental health crisis to mass shootings is stigmatizing mental health patients. Mass shootings happen because of easy access to guns. Get rid of easy access and you solve that problem. Tying it to mental health is a gun advocate's solution.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

13. I hear what you're saying and you're right.

[kcr]

17. Thank you

I understand that in times like this people want to find answers and try to understand why this happens. The obvious answer policy-wise is guns, but if we want to look deeper, the key to understanding lies in systemic violence. Shooters almost always show a history of violence, often domestic violence, leading up to these events.

[kydo]

15. Exactly!

[loyalsister]

20. Ordinary rage and despair- you nailed it

A person does not necessarily fall into the population of people who struggle with mental illness if they are unhappy or pissed about their life circumstances. In fact, their disposition is most likely entirely normal.

An effort to fit those responses into a mental health construct reminds me of "drapetomania." I don't think anyone would accept trying to escape slavery as a mental illness today. None of us would see it as anything but a natural response to circumstances.

Not only are the feelings entirely rational, we live in a culture that has accepted violent behavior as normal and valid. The impulse to kill in response to rage has been normalized. Consider how long it took for domestic violence to be considered anything but a private family matter.

We have now (often correctly- very often not) accepted violence as a legally acceptable form of self defense in many contexts. The legal meaning of self defense keeps moving to favor people who commit violence. We should not be surprised that killing has become a frequent response to very ordinary feelings when extremely destructive instruments are readily available.

Rather than labeling the behavior as abnormal, I think we need to accept that many of these incidents are driven by feelings that really should be understood as legitimate.