Are "sawed-off" shotguns legal ?

[kentuck]

Sawed off shotguns can be especially deadly because the ammunition is propelled faster than it would be if the barrel was complete. ... In the United States, it is illegal to posses a sawed off shotgun that has a barrel length of less than eighteen inches, unless the individual has obtained a taxed permit from the ATF.

Sawed Off Shotgun - Gun | Laws.com
https://gun.laws.com/shotguns/sawed-off-shotgun

[PoliticAverse]

1. That's not true. A shorter barrel results in the same or lower velocity...

as the propellant has less time to push on the pellets/slug. The main point of the sawed-off shotgun is to make the
gun easier to conceal (it also gives the pellets greater spread).

[Drahthaardogs]

24. BINGO!

It's why turkey hunters use a 32 inch barrel. Longer shot, tighter pattern, more velocity.

[ProudLib72]

2. This information is incorrect

Muzzle velocity for a sawed off shotgun would be lower. The other issue is the spread of the shot would be greater. A sawed off shotgun's purpose it to make sure someone with really really bad aim can actually hit the broadside of a barn.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. Yes, if not less than 18."

[kentuck]

4. Why should a shotgun be illegal but an AR-15 be legal?

...is the question we should be asking, imo.

[X_Digger]

15. A rifle has similar restrictions on overall & barrel length. n/t

[doc03]

31. Don't get that, a rifle has similar restrictions on barrel length? I don't know

what that would be, a short rifle would be a handgun. There are also handguns that fire the 410 shotgun shell.

[NickB79]

33. Rifles must have a 16" barrel and 26" overall length

[doc03]

37. There are hanguns under 16" that shoot certain shells also used in rifles. Is the

44 magnum for instance not considerd a rifle cartridge? What makes a cartridge a rifle cartridge only?

[comradebillyboy]

40. The .44 magnum, while a very powerful pistol round is not very powerful

compared to most center fire rifle rounds. The cartridge of a 30-30 has much more powder and a much higher muzzle velocity than a .44 magnum. The .223 cartridge used in the AR-15 is much more powerful even though the .223 bullet has about half the diameter of the .44. Basically rifles are much more powerful than pistols and have a much longer effective range.

[doc03]

43. Thompson and Center makes the Contendor pistol in. 223 and. 308 with

a 15" barrel. You can also buy pistols that shoot the 410 shotgun shell. I would think a 44magnum would
have more knockdown power at close range than a. 223.

[comradebillyboy]

44. Yeah I'm aware of those pistols that fire rifle cartriges but I don't have any

experience with them. Single shot, bolt action if I recall correctly. I don't think I could handle one unless I was shooting from a bench.

[Fred Sanders]

29. Seems a shotgun FAR better for "home defence by a single mother" as the vile NRA propganda

spews forth, than kid killer military grade rifles of war.

[Still In Wisconsin]

38. Yes a shotgun with reduced recoil buckshot

is FAR superior to any rifle or handgun in my opinion. Projectiles are far less likely to go through walls than with an AR-15 or other rifle, and stopping power is far better than any handgun. Of course, an effective home security system will almost always preclude the need for ANY firearm.

[Fred Sanders]

39. I am not advocating for any gun for "home defence" let me be clear. Oxymoronic to have a gun for.

I have a yappy dog who is afraid of any motion or sound in the dark. I sleep well. Unless said yappy dog wakes me up.

[highplainsdem]

5. They're more deadly at close range because of wider shot spread.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawed-off_shotgun

[kentuck]

7. And the NRA doesn't have a problem with this weapon being illegal??

But they have a problem with the AR-15 being illegal??

What happened to their 2nd Amendment?

[highplainsdem]

8. The NRA is motivated primarily by profits, gun sales, and sawed-off shotguns aren't currently much

of the market.

From that Wikipedia article:

Most gun makers in the U.S. have not offered sawed-off shotguns to the public since the early 1900s, when shotguns with barrel lengths of under 18" were restricted, although they had been offered prior to that time without being illegally modified.

[Adrahil]

16. They do, I'm sure...

If SBS's were not so heavily regulated now (they are not illegal, except on a state by state basis. My state is ruby red, but SBS's are illegal here), I'm sure they would oppose regulating them. I'm a little surprised their GOP lapdogs haven't sought to destroy the NFA in general.

[Straw Man]

18. Short-barreled shotguns are illegal at the federal level.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa

[Adrahil]

21. Not illegal... you just have to get the NFA tax stamp.

I have sound suppressors, with NFA stamps for my range rifles.... My hearing was damaged by West Nile and I use the suppressors AND I wear ear muffs.

[Straw Man]

25. Yes -- I stand corrected.

Sorry to hear about your hearing loss. I have some tinnitus from playing loud rock 'n' roll in my youth. I use plugs and muffs. I'm in NY, and suppressors are illegal, regardless of NFA.

[doc03]

32. What about short barreled handguns that fire the 410 shotgun shell?

[NickB79]

34. They also fire .45 Colt rounds

So they're classed as handguns.

[Straw Man]

45. And they're not smoothbore.

The barrels are rifled. It puts some spin on the pellets so that the shot pattern is less than ideal (more of a ring than a cloud), but at short ranges it doesn't matter too much.

[Fred Sanders]

30. Shotgun not NEAR as fun as firing a 30 round magazine from a military grade war weapon!

And not a profitable I would wager.

[Straw Man]

46. 6 rounds x 9 pellets equals 54 projectiles going downrange.

That's what a standard pump shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot can do before it has to be reloaded. And some shotguns can hold 9 rounds. Reloading has to be one shell at a time, but the magazine tube can be topped off at any time, so in theory the gun never has to be empty.

[sarisataka]

6. Federal- yes

With permit. State laws vary.

[maveric]

9. I grew up in MA and they were illegal then.

They were referred to as “Alley Cleaners”.

[Downtown Hound]

10. A shot gun has to be 18" in length to be legal

Anything shorter than that is a no-no.

[kentuck]

11. But an AR is legal?

We seem to be missing the point. There can be and there are regulations on guns - the sawed-off shotgun being one. We can also regulate AR-15s as well.

[Downtown Hound]

12. Welcome to America. n/t

[Adrahil]

17. Yeah... I think we should put semi-auto center-fire rifles with removable mags on the NFA list too..

Right now, only Short-Barreled Rifles and "machine gun" rifles are on the NFA list.

[hack89]

22. The only thing stopping Assault Weapon Bans is the lack of deep, broad support

there are no legal impediments.

[doc03]

35. Switch blade knives are illegal in Ohio if they are purchased in another

state or country and they are illegal for concealed carry. I guess the NRA don't care about them.

[dumbcat]

14. Nope. Not true

In many states they can be possessed with an ATF Tax Stamp. I know couple of folks with a Scattergun Technologies Border Patrol model with a 14.5" barrel.

[briv1016]

13. Shotgun barrels need to be at least 18' long while rifle barrels need to be at least 16" long.

A handgun can have any barrel length you want. You can purchase them shorter but you need a special federal stamp. Also as stated, shorter barrels generally result in lower muzzle velocities.

ETA: Shorter barrels also tend to be less accurate, have more recoil, louder and have more muzzle flash.

[mitch96]

19. And then there is this little jewel...

The mossberg shockwave.. Not a shotgun although it uses shot gun shells, not a rifle or a hand gun.. ATF calls it a "firearm"... Barrel is 14.5" overall length of 27"...
I don't know what to say about this thing.. It's not for hunting that's for shit sure...
m

http://www.mossberg.com/category/series/590-shockwave/

[Straw Man]

27. Here's what the ATF has to say about their ruling.

https://www.mossberg.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Shockwave-Letter-from-ATF-3-2-17.pdf

Its suitability for hunting is irrelevant, since there is no stipulation about "sporting purposes" for domestically produced firearms.

[comradebillyboy]

41. That has to hurt like hell to shoot. And your target has to be right up close.

[Straw Man]

47. Supposedly it doesn't hurt too much.

I haven't shot one, but from what I've heard, you hold it out to your side and let your arms move to absorb the recoil. But yes, very hard to aim accurately, and very hard to reacquire the target between shots. I think it's a crap idea whose main appeal is to Mad Max fans.

[comradebillyboy]

48. It looks like it was designed for knocking over 7-11 stores on the graveyard shift.

[Straw Man]

49. Something like that.

Actually I'm surprised the ATF doesn't consider it a short-barreled shotgun. But they don't. The business about never having had a stock on it is kind of a mind-warp.

[Straw Man]

20. Lots of misinformation that needs correcting here.

Last edited Sun Feb 25, 2018, 01:26 AM - Edit history (5)

Shotgun minimum barrel length is regulated at the federal level:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/which-firearms-are-regulated-under-nfa

As has been stated by others, muzzle velocity is actually reduced by shortening the barrel. This is because the projectiles leave the barrel before all the propellant has burned. A certain amount of energy is lost in muzzle blast after the projectiles have already gone downrange.

The increased shot spread at close ranges is negligible: a 26" vs. a 12" spread at a typical indoor distance of 15 yards. A shotgun doesn't send a wall of lead flying downrange. That's a common misconception.



--https://www.hunter-ed.com/montana/studyGuide/Shotgun-Choke-and-Shot-Pattern/201027_700048225/

The notion of sawing off a shotgun barrel to increase shot spread dates from the days of fixed chokes, when sawing off the end of the barrel meant that there would be no constriction of the shot at the muzzle end: With the choke portion cut off, the barrel effectively became "cylinder bore." Nowadays chokes are removable, so that any barrel can be made "cylinder bore" simply by removing the choke tube. Since repeated firing of such an altered gun would destroy the barrel threads, most people would instead opt to purchase a legal 18" cylinder-bore barrel -- shotgun barrels can be changed in less than a minute without tools.

The only reason for sawing off a shotgun barrel now is concealability -- and I suspect that was the prime reason all along.

[rzemanfl]

26. Back in the '70s we used to shorten the barrels of cheap single shots to hunt ruffed grouse

with because they all came choked full. Then we made some money and got better shotguns.

[Straw Man]

28. Yes, and ...

Back in the '70s we used to shorten the barrels of cheap single shots to hunt ruffed grouse

with because they all came choked full.

... you could do that legally if the barrels were long enough to cut off the choked portion and still have a barrel over 18" long.

[rzemanfl]

50. They were 30" full choke barrels. When I saved up for an 870 I opted for 26" Improved

Cylinder.

[mitch96]

51. I have a Winchester model 1897 with the choke cut off

It came from a prison On occasion when the prisons could not get enough Riot guns they would purchase a conventional Model 97 and cut it down to 20". That's the one I have. A collectable I've been told... or was that the trench gun. It was my fathers and I never shot it.
m

[aikoaiko]

23. Wait? What? Where do you get your information?

[jmg257]

36. See US vs Miller...figure if Miller had a BAR and a defense, full-autos would be

Totally Legal.

[comradebillyboy]

42. BAR, that was Clyde Barrow's gun of choice.

Clyde of Bonnie and Clyde depression era bank robbers.