General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe gun debate keeps missing a key reason people want to possess guns
This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by DonViejo (a host of the General Discussion forum).
A key reason is that people want to be able to defend themselves, their neighborhoods and communities in case of natural and man-made disasters, civil commotion, and riots.
They have seen lots of media that shows them that police are unable, unwilling, or ordered not to defend them. By the time that the National Guard is called out, a lot of injury and damage has already been done.
Thus, self-defense using privately owned firearms is seen as the only effective defense in these situations.
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Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Glad to see posting again after only one post in 2017. The gun debate is bringing a lot of new voices to DU!
sharedvalues
(6,916 posts)The nra is a marketing arm of the gun industry.
20 years ago, you could say a key reason for pro-tobacco sentiment (despite clear public heath damage) was money and marketing by the tobacco industry.
40 years ago, you could say a key reason for pro-asbestos sentiment (despite clear public heath damage) was money and marketing by the asbestos industry.
We’re at a turning point now on guns. 20 years from now we will look back in sadness that it took so many kids dying to break the back of the gun industry. Same as with tobacco and asbestos.
vi5
(13,305 posts)...is that for the most part nobody wants to ban all guns for everyone. Yes, there are a lot of us for whom that would be a great thing. but that's not even in the same universe as most of us are in.
All anyone is discussing at this point is shit like background checks, banning criminals and people with certain violent mental issues from buying guns. Things which 90 some percent of the country agrees with.
johnpowdy
(116 posts)Name one example of someone needing to protect themselves with a gun during a natural disaster
NickB79
(20,356 posts)If we stay on the path we're on, global civilization as we know it may be crumbling within 40 years as the climate shifts and global migration and famine set in. Resource wars are no longer a thing of science fiction.
These worries did influence my choice to buy a house in a semi-rural area on acreage, and work to establish a permaculture/edible landscape on it.
But at the same time, I can recognize that millions of guns in the hands of survivalists probably won't make things better.
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)killed as with your own gun.
https://www.rei.com/media/03db86b3-a499-48fd-9268-de3742e23dce?size=1020x510
(Counter Assault Bear Deterrent spray)
keep it at your front door or bedside table if you are that scared.
I've hiked the back country of Colorado, WY and MT with nothing more than bear bells on the dog and bear spray with small groups of people. Sometimes a large knife in scabbard when in heavy mountain lion areas and to cut down brush.
I will NOT own a gun for self-protection. The stats are against it protecting ME.
BTW, this is my pepperspray keychain 
that I use when taking long walks with the dog or going out at night--more pertinent to keeping coyotes at bay than humans in my life to date, but still.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Montana Grizzly Bear Notice:
In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear
conflicts, the Montana Department of Fish and Game
is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra
precautions and keep alert for bears while in the field.
We advise that outdoorsmen wear noisy little bells on
their clothing so as not to startle the bears that aren't
expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry
pepper spray with them in case of an encounter with a
bear.
It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear
activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference
between black bear and grizzly bear poop. Black bear poop
is smaller and contains a lot of berry seeds and squirrel fur.
Grizzly bear poop has little bells in it and smells like pepper
spray.
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)surprised a bear. Bear bells are clearly meant to warn the bear off and they DO help--sarcastic little stories aside.
SonofDonald
(2,050 posts)A wildlife officer in Alaska sprayed his campsite testing his spray years ago.
He left then returned to find a bear had chewed on everything the spray landed on.
They like the taste.
Although it should work as described I wouldn't bet my life on it, I'd be running flat out after spraying a bear.
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)why the hell anyone would think spraying it around a campsite would have ANY usefulness?... only shows how very very confused they are.
Since you posted this, did YOU expect that pepper spray would work to prevent being approached if you sprayed it on yourself? Surely not...
Good gawd
SonofDonald
(2,050 posts)Read the post, you sure have a lot of questions that nothing I said led to.
Fer Gawds sakes.
An instant block for you.
Goodbye.
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)Why would anyone with common sense think this WOULD work? Feel free to block if you don't want to discuss your account. Happy I could educate you on the mode and method of pepper spray as I'd hate for you to repeat the same mistake as your supposed trained ranger. I fear for you.
lindysalsagal
(22,915 posts)Europe does just fine without guns.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Practically every square kilometer of Europe has been fought over at one time or another, mostly with guns for the last few centuries.
America might be more placid if some tens of millions of our more aggressive young men had been killed since 1914.
EX500rider
(12,583 posts)I have had that same thought, most the European Type-A types either emigrated or died at the front in the constant warfare Europe has from the 1600's to the 1940's.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)going to be necessary or even possible are very, very small. But what has to be stressed is that weapons like the AR-15 are not only not necessary for self-defense, but often times can even be a liability. If you live in a crowded urban area or a suburban community, and you start firing off rounds with one of those, you don't know where those rounds are going to go. They are powerful rounds and could just as easily go into your neighbors children's bedroom as they could go into an intruder.
If you have a handgun for self-defense, it's very difficult to hit a moving target under stress with a handgun. Even trained cops have a hard time doing it. So again, where are those rounds going to go?
The best weapon for self-defense? A shotgun. The rounds scatter so you don't have to be an expert marksman, they have a limited range so they don't go very far, and they won't go through three walls before they stop, and often times, the mere sound of that pump is enough to send an intruder or an attacker running. You won't even need to fire it.
That NRA has put out so much fear and propaganda that many people believe if they don't have enough firepower to take down an army, they are unsafe, and that is just flat out not true. Your grandaddy's Winchester will suffice for 99.9% of every possible threat every time.
As for riots, most of the time they're after property, not you. Do you really want to kill someone over a TV screen or a broken window?
chumpchange
(48 posts)"The best weapon for self-defense? A shotgun. The rounds scatter so you don't have to be an expert marksman, they have a limited range so they don't go very far, and they won't go through three walls before they stop, and often times, the mere sound of that pump is enough to send an intruder or an attacker running. You won't even need to fire it. "
I keep reading stuff like this on DU and it is absurd. At home defense ranges, buckshot (big pellets usually used in antipersonnel loads) does not spread significantly. You still have to be able to hit your target. 00 buck pellets are about the size of a 9MM bullet and are generally launched at speeds in excess of a 9MM handgun. They will go right through drywall, plywood, etc. and keep on going. As for the sound of action being racked scaring off would be intruders? Please. A determined looter, drugged up burglar or the like is not going to take notice. If anything it alerts them to your presence and they will take preemptive measures (like shooting you through a door).
The reason to use a shotgun for self defense is because if you hit a man-sized target they are done being a threat to you with one (or even a partial) hit. Effective self defense loads in a shotgun are just as much of a hazard as shooting any other firearm indoors. As a matter of fact, there is some evidence that .223 full metal jacket bullets are less dangerous in crowded areas because they tend to fragment when they hit drywall, plywood, etc. If you were really determined to avoid overpenetration in one of these unlikely scenarios, it is possible to purchase frangible bullets that essentially turn to powder when they hit something.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)So no, it's not silly nonsense.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)Oh and by the way, most homes are not made out of plywood. They are made out of sheetrock, which is good at stopping pretty much nothing.
chumpchange
(48 posts)Pretty easy to buy frangible rounds that break up on the first impact. Cannot do that with buckshot.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)Maximum range of an AR-15: 550 yards.
Also, very easy to NOT buy frangible rounds that break up on impact.
chumpchange
(48 posts)that a shotgun is not the be all and end all of self defense. Collateral damage is a very real problem and isn't likely to be all that different from use of a rifle. So stop with the "Crazy Uncle Joe" Biden nonsense of "just fire a couple shotgun rounds in the air and they will run off."
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)The military uses FMJ per the Geneva Convention. They are less likely to kill than expanding types of bullets. The military objective is to wound the enemy solider, since a wounded soldier puts a greater burden on the enemy than a dead soldier. Treating, evacuating, and caring for wounded strains logistics and demoralizes the rear echelon.
aikoaiko
(34,214 posts)Missed shots are a big deal and some argue that an AR is less likely to have a missed shot.
True, AR shots do travel further in many cases.
LuckyCharms
(22,649 posts)There was looting near my home.
I did not need a gun. There are ways to deter looters.
johnpowdy
(116 posts)Anyone that owns a gun is most likely to have it taken from them by attackers and get shot with their own gun
LuckyCharms
(22,649 posts)And yes, a dog.
And be at, or have someone be at your home. People are not generally going to bother a home owner who is pissed off because he just lost a good portion of his life.
Calculating
(3,000 posts)They're gonna be getting the bullets first, at around 2600 FPS.
johnpowdy
(116 posts)And 2600 FPS? That is frightening. Why can't you just do it with a shotgun?
hlthe2b
(113,973 posts)
johnpowdy
(116 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)I have lived in some pretty shady neighborhoods in my life and have never once had a gun save me from anything. Irrational fear is not an excuse.
Thyla
(791 posts)Self defense is not one of them.
sarisataka
(22,695 posts)Chang Lee gripped his fingers tighter around the gun and screamed at potential looters from the rooftop of the small strip mall where he stood. The 35-year-old had never held a firearm before the LA riots. Lighting up the blocks around him, Lee could smell the fires burning in Los Angeles' Koreatown.
"Where are the police? Where are the police?" Lee whispered over and over from his rooftop perch. Lee would not see law enforcement for three days -- only fellow Korean-Americans, who would be photographed by news agencies looking like armed militia in what appeared to be a guerrilla race war on the streets.
It was April 30, 1992, and the city of angels raged in a second day of looting, armed assaults and arson in the wake of the acquittal of four white LAPD officers for use of excessive force in the videotaped beating of Rodney King.
The nearly weeklong, widespread rioting killed more than 50 people, injured more than 1,000 people and caused approximately $1 billion in damage, about half of which was sustained by Korean-owned businesses. Long-simmering cultural clashes between immigrant Korean business owners and predominately African-American customers spilled over with the acquittals.
'The police will protect you'- except LAPD set up roadblocks keeping people from leaving Koreatown because those routes led to rich (white) neighborhoods. As Lees says, "They left us to burn."
moriah
(8,312 posts)... making it universally illegal to transfer a firearm without the person receiving it have a background check run?
You know, support your local gun store or shooting range, and make sure you're not selling to a felon? What could *possibly* go wrong for the seller other than learning the person interested in buying shouldn't be? Why is that such a *huge* inconvenience?
I'd even throw in free checks for people purchasing or transferring in order to supplement a "paper shield", funded by a buck fee on each other transfer. Won't stop you from keeping yer wimmin-folk safe, just a run to the range and your daughter could legally have your pistol to defend herself against a stalker.
But every time I propose even something so mild... people complain.
kydo
(2,679 posts)It gives one the perception of being in control.
If one feels that they need protection, a gun gives one the sense of control.
People feel that with a gun they can control the situation. Whether it's, protection, hunting, sport, or preparation for some calamity, like a zombie apocalypse.
johnpowdy
(116 posts)According to some gun nuts I talk to
maxsolomon
(38,729 posts)Most of it is fiction or hyperbolic fear-mongering. Zombies = not real.
Yes, when society collapses, you'll need a gun to protect your preciouses. But such a prospect is highly unlikely. Society is not collapsing, MS-17 is not coming for your CD collection, the Rodney King riots were a quarter century ago. Again, Zombies = not real.
Self-protection is not why Rampage Killers acquire MSSAs. They do it because they're angry.
"Fear is the Mind Killer." - Frank Herbert.
FreepFryer
(7,086 posts)
shanny
(6,709 posts)They just like gunz.
Calculating
(3,000 posts)3 home invaders armed with brass knuckles, knives and or bats. How do you defend yourself and your family against that without a gun?
True story
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/oklahoma-man-uses-ar-15-kill-three-teen-home-intruders-n739541
Fresh_Start
(11,365 posts)so are they expecting the chickens or corn stalks to riot?
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)some but you want guns everywhere with everyone which is bull shit.
CentralMass
(16,971 posts)StTimofEdenRoc
(445 posts)Iggo
(49,928 posts)StTimofEdenRoc
(445 posts)but a pump action shot gun should be enough.
I just do not buy into "Good Guy with a Gun Saves the World".
I am more of a, pull our resources together and we will get thru this person.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Most of the people who do that are outright racists who believe minorities are going to flee the cities and kill them. Gretna New Orleans is an good example.
In fact, a few years ago, our own Gungeoneers had a discussion before a storm headed to NYC asking what was the best weapon to use to protect your home from people fleeing the storm.
In my opinion, most of the serious gun-strokers are just white wing racists, and that's an example.
What we need is another General Honore to yell out to gunners like he did when the National Guard arrived in NO -- "Put those God D___ guns down, that's not what we are here for."
Most of us are better than that.
hunter
(40,691 posts)Every little gangster in my community is thinking the same thing, that they're "defending" some shit with their guns.
The consequence is a rational *adult* community that abhors guns.
Gun fetishes are disgusting.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)A few people took advantage and stole. Many more just shared or dumpster dived.
LonePirate
(14,367 posts)
Turbineguy
(40,076 posts)Selling fear gets results.
Yonnie3
(19,458 posts)I don't think so. I see it all over the place, even on DU.
I don't share your concern of this being left out.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)The number of guns has ballooned.
Maybe the dumber are truly frightened and truly feel they are in danger. But I still say most of them feel the need to stockpile guns because they know we object to guns.
The secret to understanding a republican, the thing that makes all their actions make sense: if we hate it, they will love it. If we want it outlawed, they will want to make sure it proliferates. If it bothers us, they will do it. That is their primary and driving motivation. They have no policies or opinions that are not rebellions against our policies and opinions.
Aristus
(72,187 posts)"I agree that zombie movies and The Purge are fun to watch. And certainly the 'everyone-is-a-bad-guy-except-for-me' outlook makes it easier to go shopping for deadly weaponry. But it doesn't accurately reflect human history. Throughout history, every time a natural disaster, or a man-made disaster, has struck, people didn't suddenly raid leather shops and sporting goods stores and turn into the cast of 'Mad Max'. They got together and started to re-build.
We have tapped into our collective humanity in order to soften the hardships inherent in disasters. Sure, there was looting and petty behavior, but it was in the minority. Heck, in 64AD when much of Rome burned to the ground, the Emperor Nero, a monster by any standard, opened every temple and basilica left standing in the city for use as homeless shelters. And he organized shipments of food for the dispossessed.
And this isn't pie-in-the-sky idealism; it's simply history. How do you think civilization got started in the first place? People worked together to make things better for everyone. (They found that by doing so, they were also making things better for themselves. Self-interest doesn't have to be a bad thing.) Strong though the temptation may be to think that we're all going to turn into 'The Road'-style cannibals at the first hint of trouble, history doesn't bear this out."
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)Discussion of guns (unrelated to the current high-profile news topic) should be posted in Gun Control & RKBA (Group).