Bolton dodged Vietnam by joining the NG

[kairos12]

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/chatterbox/2005/04/john_bolton_wimp.html

snip:
Though Bolton supported the Vietnam War, he declined to enter combat duty, instead enlisting in the National Guard and attending law school after his 1970 graduation. "I confess I had no desire to die in a Southeast Asian rice paddy," Bolton wrote of his decision in the 25th reunion book. "I considered the war in Vietnam already lost."

He and Cadet Bone Spurs will fight to the last drop of everyone else's blood. Count on it.

[madaboutharry]

1. Chris Matthews, tonight on his show,

called Bolton a Chickenhawk.

[former9thward]

15. What was Matthews service record?

Oh, that's right ....

[stonecutter357]

31. do you need a service record to call Bolton a Chickenhawk ?

[former9thward]

46. No one needs anything to call anybody else anything.

That's why people call other people names hundreds of millions of times everyday on the internet. I happen to think it is hypocritical and idiotic for someone who didn't serve in the military call anyone else some names when that person actually did serve in a branch of the service. But that's me. Others may differ.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

32. He served in the Peace Corps

It's not "military", but it's service. I'd guess his service in Swaziland was more danger and hardship than my Army service in Germany. I don't know if there are medals for catching Malaria, but there should be.

[braddy]

2. Serving isn't draft dodging, as a fellow vet you should know that, doesn't anyone here remember

what draft dodgers were?
draft dodger definition. Someone who illegally evades the draft, as opposed to a conscientious objector, who is granted official, legal exemption from military duty.

If veterans are now draft dodgers, then what do we call real draft dodgers?

[safeinOhio]

3. Resisters.

[braddy]

4. I was a draft resister, and there were what we could call draft evaders, but a draft dodger was a

coward that used illegal means to avoid serving in the military, sometimes they even left the country.

[safeinOhio]

7. I was fine with anyone

that resisted that illegal war. Chicken Hawks may be what you are talking about. Like Cheney, they were all for the war but wouldn’t go.

[kairos12]

8. Chickenhawk would be more accurate.

[braddy]

11. I was fine with men like me that opposed the draft itself but I despised the cowardly draft dodgers

and the ones so fearful that they fled the country, I believed that all men that were capable of service should serve, but voluntarily, I was proud of friends that enlisted in the reserves, Guard, or active duty.

Personally, I enlisted in the Army immediately after winning my permanent deferment from the draft, attended jump school and tried to get to Vietnam.

During the 1980s I saw the Soviet issue coming to a head and went back into the military, but that time in an elite National Guard unit.

It really blows my mind that military veterans are now called draft dodgers, especially by people who never served and are of generations that have only served in tiny numbers.

[kairos12]

5. Fair point. Thanks.

[Major Nikon]

12. Thats not the only way to define the term

There were ample National Guard units at the time that were never activated during the entire Vietnam War era and everyone knew they wouldn’t be. Waiting lists to join were often very long for this reason. So while Ned Flanders might technically be a “veteran”, he most certainly is a draft dodger and the epitome of a chickenhawk.

[braddy]

13. People knew that the Navy and Air Force were safe but did not know that the Reserves and Guard were

safe, just safer, we lost over 6,000 Reservists and Guard members in Vietnam. The Vietnam war was also fought mostly by volunteers, not draftees, unlike WWII.

Veterans are not draft dodgers, you shouldn't spit on them by calling them such. Save the title coward for the generations of males today that have only served in tiny numbers.

[Major Nikon]

14. Try not to break your back carrying Ned Flanders water

You’d almost think he didn’t actually admit to draft dodging.

[braddy]

16. I don't know what that means, but serving in the military is not draft dodging.

[Major Nikon]

18. So I guess he shouldnt have admitted to being a draft dodger

While you’re at it I suppose you should also rush to Shrubs defense for using family connections to get into TANG.

[Nevernose]

17. Depends

My father, for instance, personally contacted every Guard unit in the South. No openings for poor kids, or black kids, or kids with funny names. Lots of openings for rich kids who wanted to use 20 million dollar fighter jets to defend the Alabama coast from the impending Viet Cong amphibious assault. Funny, that disparity.

People who joined the National Guard during a war AND during a draft are/were draft dodgers. Just because you’ve added a legal technicality to the definition doesn’t make Bolton less of a coward, hypocrite, or draft dodger.

[braddy]

19. Nonsense, there were plenty of regular guys in basic and the other Army schools during the war

and military service makes a veteran, not a draft dodger.

Draft Dodger is defined as using illegal means to avoids a draft, and it seems pretty silly in this time of almost all males avoiding military service, to worry about a draft almost half-century ago.

[Major Nikon]

20. A draft dodger is someone who dodges the draft

Which is exactly what Ned Flanders did by his own admission.

The part you seem to be missing is nobody here really gives a flying fuck if someone avoided compulsory service in an ethically indefensible war. The part people here take exception to is when you have a shitstain who did so and then does all they can to insure other people die in ethically indefensible wars. That's what makes Ned Flanders a festering asshole.

[braddy]

21. Serving in the military is hardly avoiding service in the military, and

draft dodging is avoiding military service by illegal means, and it sure as heck does not include military veterans, whether they were of the minority that served in a war zone or not during their time in the military.

[Major Nikon]

24. Naive nonsense

For one thing, you are basing your entire argument on "draft dodging" = "avoiding military service by illegal means" which I've already explained to you most certainly isn't the only definition, or even the most popular for that term. I can show you numerous dictionary references which define the term as simply someone who dodges the draft. So by your own silly semantics game, you lose. Furthermore, by any reasonable accounting of what was going on at the time, your argument gets even more ridiculous. I'm sure you think Flanders and Shrub's military service was honorable, but the fact is they used their privilege to insure their low draft number would never result in them hearing a shot fired in anger.

Vietnam War

During the Vietnam War, serving in the Army and Air National Guard or the military Reserve components was generally regarded as a guaranteed way to avoid the dangers of combat. Although National Guard and Reserve units had been called to active duty in every war since they were founded,[1] the risk was extremely low in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Only 8,700 of these servicemen were ordered to South Vietnam, a tiny 0.3% of the total American military personnel who actually served there. Furthermore, a greatly disproportionate number of famous, wealthy, or politically connected young men received hard to get places in the National Guard or Reserves during Vietnam, including 360 professional athletes such as Bill Bradley and Nolan Ryan.[2]

Commenting on this disparity, General Colin Powell wrote in his autobiography, "I am angry that so many sons of the powerful and well placed and many professional athletes (who were probably healthier than any of us) managed to wrangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units. Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to our country."[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_unit

[DrDan]

26. I am struggling with your version of "draft dodging" as well

definitions I quickly reviewed defined it as a means to avoid compulsory service. Can you provide a link showing national guard and reserves participation as "draft dodging".

[Major Nikon]

28. Did you not read the previous post?

[DrDan]

29. I did

you stated " I can show you numerous dictionary references which define the term as simply someone who dodges the draft"

Can you show those references? I see the term defined as dodging compulsory service (admittedly a quick search). I struggle to see vets being considered draft dodgers.

[Major Nikon]

30. You do understand compulsory service is the draft, yes?

If not I'm not sure how I can help you.

[DrDan]

33. no they are not the same

Compulsory service is the time to be spent in the service. The draft is the procedure for chosing individuals for their service. But that distinction is somewhat irrelevant.

To "dodge the draft" is to dodge the time in the service. Those that volunteer are not dodging their compulsory time.

Here are a few links supporting that

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/draft%20dodger - a person who illegally avoids joining the armed forces

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/draft-dodger - a person who evades or attempts to evade compulsory military service.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/someone - someone who evades compulsory military service



I am not asking for your help. I am simply asking for links to your "dictionary definitions" of draft-dodger that show an individual volunteering, as opposed to being drafted, for a period of time in the service is a draft dodger.

[Major Nikon]

34. So dodging the draft doesn't mean dodging the draft

Because all time in the service whether you volunteered or not is compulsory.

Sorry, but I'm just not following this logic. Using this warped reasoning, Shrub wasn't a draft dodger either even though he used family connections to join a unit that had a long line of people ahead of him and got a position that insured he would never have to hear a shot fired in anger.

Maybe I'm just a simple person, but "draft dodging" means dodging the draft, and that's exactly what Bolton did by his own admission. If you want to turn this into a game of semantics, be my guest, but I'm not going there with you any more.

During the 1969 Vietnam War draft lottery, Bolton drew number 185. (Draft numbers corresponded to birth dates.)[24] As a result of the Johnson and Nixon administrations' decisions to rely largely on the draft rather than on the reserve forces, joining a Guard or Reserve unit became a way to avoid service in the Vietnam War.[25] Bolton enlisted in the Maryland Army National Guard in 1970 rather than wait to find out if his draft number would be called.[26] (The highest number called to military service was 195.)[27] After serving in the National Guard for four years, he served in the United States Army Reserve until the end of his enlistment two years later.[28] He wrote in his Yale 25th reunion book "I confess I had no desire to die in a Southeast Asian rice paddy. I considered the war in Vietnam already lost."[29] In an interview, Bolton discussed his comment in the reunion book, explaining that he decided to avoid service in Vietnam because "by the time I was about to graduate in 1970, it was clear to me that opponents of the Vietnam War had made it certain we could not prevail, and that I had no great interest in going there to have Teddy Kennedy give it back to the people I might die to take it away from."[30][31]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R._Bolton#Early_life_and_education

[DrDan]

38. dodging the draft is evading compulsary military service - if you perform

your compulsory military service, you are not dodging the draft. The definitions provided support that.

Not sure how that is a game of semantics, but so be it.

I noticed you have not posted a single "dictionary definition" supporting your thoughts. Insightful.

[Major Nikon]

39. Most people don't need a dictionary to figure out draft dodging means dodging the draft, YMMV

I didn't really feel the need since you posted it for me

draft dodg·er
ˈdraf(t) ˈˌdäjər/
noun North American derogatory
noun: draft dodger; plural noun: draft dodgers

a person who has avoided compulsory military service

I'm pretty sure compulsory and voluntary mean exactly the opposite thing by any fully literate definition, but obviously you have a different idea on the subject which is itself pretty insightful. I find it rather amusing how you require increasingly intricate levels of pretzel logic to support the idea that Bolton isn't a draft dodger after he admitted why and how he dodged the draft.

[DrDan]

40. I have said nothing about Bolton - but you know that

if one volunteers for compulsory military service, they are not avoiding it, hence they are not a draft dodger

Interesting that you have changed your logic. Early posts you state one is a draft-dodger if one avoids the draft. Now you post that one is a draft-dodger if one avoids compulsory military service - which I agree with. Those are not equivalent statements. I volunteered for my compulsory military service (active duty) hence I was not drafted. I do not consider myself draft dodger.

Please state clearly your position - is a volunteer for compulsory military service a draft dodger or not? This includes active duty.

[Major Nikon]

41. Voluntary compulsory service

If you weren’t talking about Bolton, I’m not sure why you bothered to reply. That’s kind of the whole point of this entire thread.

Thanks for the hilarious oxymoron though. I can always use the humor.

[DrDan]

43. ahhh - so now the insults - a good tactic when one's logic begins to fuzz-up

[Major Nikon]

45. What insult?

Are you actually implying one can’t find humor in an oxymoron?

[DrDan]

25. such a strange exchange - "A draft dodger is someone who dodges the draft'

I never considered myself a draft dodger - but I guess that is what I am according to that poster. I volunteered because I was given an opportunity for USAF Flight School vs being drafted. I did my obligation without being drafted . . . I should be ashamed, I guess.

How can a vet be considered a "draft dodger"?. They may be a lot of things, but "draft dodger" does not seem to be one of them.

[Major Nikon]

42. So a person who dodged the draft isnt a draft dodger?

By your logic, not only is Bolton not a draft dodger, but neither is Shrub or Limbaugh or Bill O.

Feel whatever you want. I don’t blame anyone for dodging the draft regardless of how or why they did it, but if they later decide to become a war cheerleader, they probably don’t have much cause to get their feelings hurt for being called out as a chickenhawk.

[DrDan]

44. as I said - I entered the U.S.A.F active duty voluntarily - if not, I would have been drafted

do you consider one who does that to be a draft dodger?

[Major Nikon]

47. I consider Bolton to be a draft dodger

You are certainly free to disagree, but I find your argument unconvincing and I find the tactic of trying to imply some kind of personal insult because I don’t agree with you disingenuous at best.

[DrDan]

48. so you prefer not to answer my simple question . . . got it

[Major Nikon]

49. I feel no obligation to answer questions from those who dont reciprocate

Kinda rich you’d complain immediately after not answering my question.

[Kingofalldems]

6. That's a classic right wing chicken hawk excuse.

Many have used the 'I didn't like the way the war was being run' talking point.

[Paladin]

9. In what branch of the service will the trump boys serve?

Once Bolton and trump get wars going with Iran and N. Korea, where will we find Eric and Don Jr.? In the front lines somewhere, right? And what about son-in-law Jared Kushner? Think he'll be taking part in any commando missions?

[kairos12]

10. Whatever their capacity they will come out with more fruit salad on their uniform than

Eisenhower. Probably the Holy Defenders of Drumpt Properties Defense Force.

[Paladin]

22. Is there a recognition bar for "Securing Profitable Military Contracts"? (nt)

[MineralMan]

23. I remember being called a "draft dodger" for enlisting in the USAF

in 1965. As a matter of fact, I was dodging the draft when I did that. I enlisted on the day I got a letter ordering me to show up for a draft physical. Instead, I was in the USAF on that same day. I had arranged with the USAF recruiter to enlist when I got the draft physical letter. When I told him what I wanted to do, he said, "No problem. Just come in here when you get that letter. We'll be glad to have you in the Air Force."

I did not want to be somewhere shooting at people I had no argument with. So, I arranged to serve in another way. I was a "draft dodger," but not a draft evader. I served for four years doing something the Air Force thought I'd be good at.

[brewens]

27. I seriously doubt he considered the Vietnam war already lost. It's easy to say that

now that everyone knows it was lost. I bet he was all for ramping things up in Vietnam as long as it wasn't him.

[Brother Buzz]

35. Um, the consensus on the street by '68-'69 was the was the war was unwinnable

The Tet Offensive was the eye opener.

[brewens]

36. I know that, but weren't there hard liners still insisting that if we sent enough,

even used tactical nukes, we could win? I was thinking Bolton would have been one of those guys.

[Brother Buzz]

37. One can assume, with no skin in the game, Bolton would have been in that camp.