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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy are Women Devouring Fifty Shades of Grey?
While much of the sex in Fifty Shades is as cruel and sadistic as in mainstream porn, it is expertly packaged for women who want a “fairy tale” ending. In male-targeted porn, the woman is interesting only for as long as the sex lasts...In Fifty Shades, however, the naïve, immature, bland Anastasia is, for some unfathomable reason, the most compelling woman our rich, sadistic, narcissistic hero has ever met, and he not only kisses her during sex (something you rarely see in Internet hardcore porn) but he doesn’t move on to the next conquest... In fact, he actually marries her and confesses undying love...
In his book on batterers, Lundy Bancroft provides a list of potentially dangerous signs to watch out for from boyfriends. Needless to say, Mr. Grey is the poster boy of the list, not only with his jealous, controlling, stalking, sexually sadistic behavior, but his hypersensitivity to...any slight against him, his whirlwind romancing of a younger, less powerful woman, his Jekyll-and-Hyde mood swings....
And yet women of all ages are swooning over this guy and misreading his obsessive, cruel behavior as evidence of love and romance. Part of the reason for this is that his wealth acts as a kind of up-market cleansing cream for his abuse, and his pathological attachment to Anastasia is reframed as devotion, since he showers luxury items on her. This is a very retrograde and dangerous world for our daughters to buy into, and speaks to the appalling lack of any public consciousness as to the reality of violence against women.
Fifty Shades also reveals just how pornographic our culture has become over the last decade or so. While the old Harlequin romance novels had narcissistic heroes who toyed, sexually and psychologically, with their much younger prey, however remote and emotionally challenged he was, the hero did not have a torture chamber tucked away in his basement. Fifty Shades of Grey is Harlequin on steroids, a kind of romance novel for the porn age in which overt sexual sadism masquerades as adoration and love. New as this is, the ending remains depressingly the same for real women who end up falling for the Mr. Greys of the world.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/07/27/why-are-women-devouring-fifty-shades-of-grey/
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derby378
(30,262 posts)
Coexist
(26,202 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)
AndreaCG
(2,331 posts)Nice women but the review I read was so scathing you'd have to pay me twenty times what a reviewer gets to read it. But I just might listen to the gottfried version. Of course I'd need several pairs of underpants cause I'd be pissing them laughing!
CherokeeDem
(3,736 posts)Those are the real words from the book?? Oh....that's simply horrid....
adigal
(7,581 posts)And our daughters are, too. I told my 18 year old daughter that she would be well advised to read some books with mutually respectful sex before she reads this crap and thinks this is healthy sex.
I am saddened that our mothers and aunts worked so hard for women to be seem as equals and girls now want to be seen as sex goddesses, flashing their breasts and showing off their nipple piercings. It makes me sorry for,the women who worked so hard.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)That's up there with Christopher Walken reading Lady Gaga Lyrics.
Next i want to either hear Bobcat Goldthwaite sing Bieber lyrics, or the Harvey Fierstein audiobook of the Twilight series.
derby378
(30,262 posts)Does that help? 
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But one of my favorite pieces of music recently is Wax Audio's mashup of Bjork and Hendrix...
http://official.fm/tracks/2uX2
derby378
(30,262 posts)Nicely done, too!
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Best to just listen to it so you hear only the impersonations and cartoon characters instead of the voice actors
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I watched the whole thing and this was like a GIFT. I was so funny, I nearly died laughing at some parts. Thanks so much for posting this. It was totally a surprise to watch it, but it was so awesome, I had to see it through the end 
I wasn't expecting it, but it was great.
Just awesome.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)but I have found it's even funnier if you only listen to it. That way, the characters and impersonated celebrities comes through. You really do imagine it's Mr. Haney playing C3P0 or Bender playing Luke 
I've shown this to people at work, and so long as they're at least somewhat geeky, they find it hilarious, too. Originally, the video was from a post in the Lounge a couple of weeks ago
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts) UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)While men appear to prefer watching it.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Tread far ye down that dreaded path
And incur ye down some dreaded wrath.
Every time.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I'm actually interested in this issue, in fact I'm fascinated with it. It is romance novels vs hustler. There are good arguments for why visual porn is worse - actual people have to do that stuff - but take that out of the equation, anime porn is quite popular and involves no real people at all. Now what?
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Learn something new every day.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)or something like that.
derby378
(30,262 posts)For some strange reason, it's also the name used to describe anime porn in general. There are also subgenres with names like Cream Lemon, Pink Shock, Blue Noise, and Cocaine Is A Hell Of A Drug.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Learn something new, every day!
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)"appearance"
. The term is used as a shortened form of the phrase "hentai seiyoku" meaning "sexual perversion". In Japanese slang, hentai is used as an insult meaning roughly "pervert" or "weirdo".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hentai
hootinholler
(26,451 posts)
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)I managed a comics/sci-fi/alt-lit shop back in the 1990s and there was always a market for hentai comics. Odd stuff, but seemingly harmless. It's clear that Japan is a much less violent place than the US.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)"men's brains seem to be, on average, more wired for visual attraction"
Upon the utterance of these fateful words, the sky cracked open.. the rocks of the Earth were heard to begin wailing... the moon turned black as sackcloth...
In the East, a 12 headed beast was seen to rise from the sea; upon it's back was a man who appeared to be Fred Willard, and he was holding in his right hand an eight foot long Corn Dog.
He opened his mouth and began to sing "Stairway To Heaven" in Bengali.
Then, I passed out.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)Not to mention
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)
DUzy!
Chemisse
(31,341 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)
Maine-ah
(9,902 posts)but I certainly prefer to read porn than to watch it. The imagination is way better than the visual reality.
The writing in 50 Shades...ugh...the sex though? I guess it all depends on what you're into. Personally, I'd rather have ahhmmm "crazy sex" with someone like my husband, who is caring and I can trust, and is not a stalking, egotistical, controlling asshole.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)Fifty Shades of Grey is certainly no exception.
As a guy, I've certainly indulged, so I can't fault women for doing the same.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts) Fire Walk With Me
(38,893 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)Just another tip that edumacation is failing us and communication has been reduced to Darwin's Origin of the Speech Ease. How utterly boring and people get off on this?
o my.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts) msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
tilsammans
(2,549 posts) 
Coexist
(26,202 posts)the "bodice rippers" historical housewife porn is much more like what you describe. The heroine is often raped (which turns into No means YES... YES...) then falls in love with him.
So maybe its not that far removed?
I decided not to read 50 Shades after a great two-fer... a book reviewer I respect said she couldn't get into the plot because it was so poorly written she had a hard time curbing the urge to edit it
then SNL had that funny Mother's Day / 50 Shades "commercial" for Amazon. I decided I could do without it.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)and said she couldn't make it past the first 50 pages. She said the sex wasn't the problem and she does work in the literary field, but it was just terribly written.
Withywindle
(9,989 posts)Except more poorly-written than the average Harlequin. Damn, is that prose awful.
Many of them feature a male lead who is, initially at least, a very creepy jerk. But the 50 Shades trilogy, from what I gather (I've only read the first one, only so I could discuss it) does have the traditional ending where the man "reforms" because of the heroine's powerful love. Which is a very common fantasy.
I have problems with the pathologizing of women's sexual fantasies. Analyzing them is one thing, but all the handwringing about "OMG women are reading PORN!" and "OMG this relationship is NOT A HEALTHY ROLE MODEL" starts to wear on me after a while, because it doesn't acknowledge how fantasies really work, and it really starts to infantilize women as these mindless creatures who need to be protected from their own wank fodder.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)
Well said.
Confusious
(8,317 posts)Every woman thinks they can fix the guy, most times they can't.
The woman fixes the bad boy in the book.
derby378
(30,262 posts)You can listen to it here:
Dreamer Tatum
(10,996 posts)Duh.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Or are you afraid to state it more plainly?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,996 posts)See Lifetime Movie Network, for example.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)...that's why Titanic was such a flop. And A Knight's Tale. And The Princess Bride.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,996 posts)Um, yeah.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)Maybe some women like stories of being degraded by rich sociopaths. Maybe others like stories about running away with penniless rebels. Maybe others like Bonnie & Clyde/Natural Born Killers/Badlands/Boxcar Bertha outlaw lovers stories....maybe some like abandoned-on-a-desert-island survival fantasies...maybe some like rescue fantasies (either being the rescued or the rescuer)...maybe different women have a wide range of fantasies that don't all boil down to our shallow desire for wealth at all costs.
Chemisse
(31,341 posts)I've always preferred the 'bad boys' (except in real life of course). And they are never rich.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)and then you post the opposite. 
progressivebydesign
(19,458 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 29, 2012, 11:49 PM - Edit history (1)
They just read about it in porn mags instead of new york times best sellers ... LOL
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)being tied up by women, and not the other way around.
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)
TheCruces
(224 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,996 posts)Otherwise show me the mainstream books wherein a poor man humiliates a woman for his jollies.
Stories like that are usually shown on Dateline.
TheCruces
(224 posts)but it's also classist and heteronormative.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,996 posts)Show me the successful mainstream novels/movies wherein a poor man attracts a woman
for the purposes of sexual gratification through humiliation and domination.
You can't.
The rich man exploiting a younger woman for his jollies is practically an archetype.
TheCruces
(224 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,996 posts)
aikoaiko
(34,214 posts)At Sat Aug 4, 2012, 11:53 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Lucky for me - your post was bullshit. nt
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1065964
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
Personal attack.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Aug 5, 2012, 12:03 AM, and the Jury voted 0-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Calling a post bullshit is not a personal attack. It is literary criticism. I disagree with Dreamer Tatum stance in this thread, but I can't hide this post.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)You are clueless about the BDSM world.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,996 posts)MAINSTREAM.
We are talking about BOOKS THAT SELL MILLIONS.
You are correct: I (thankfully) know nothing about the BDSM world.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts) lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)antigone382
(3,682 posts)"hot" or not, poor is poor.
And if it's shallow and self-absorbed to enjoy fantasies about being with a rich man, and it's shallow and self-absorbed to enjoy fantasies about being with a poor man, what type of female fantasies are acceptable?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)it's reasonable to extrapolate the nature of that fantasy.
Acceptable? They're all acceptable. Some are simply more interesting to one who studies human nature than others. The fact that 50 shades of gray is immensely popular, yet in such marked contrast to what people say they want, is very interesting.
In romance novels and chick-flick storylines, wealth generally figures prominently - it is a central conflict.
Escapist guy entertainment generally tends to treat wealth as simply a literary device to explain why Ironman can afford to build all the cool shit. No one cares whether Gwyneth Paltrow has money.
My feeling is that guys compulsively chase money and wealth to conform with women's fantasies and expectations. They don't personally care whether they are Peter Parker (without two thin dimes to rub together) or Bruce Wayne, or Jason Bourne, who finds money in the way a Halo player finds health packs.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Unless you think rape fantasies are genetic.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Because nothing in this post is germane, relevant or topical to anything I said.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)...not all, and I'd wager not among more mature female readers who are familiar with the components of really fantastic sex.
As for the wealth angle...the traditional social unacceptability of women earning their own wages, especially after marriage, and thus their dependence on either men or their own inheritances for livelihood, makes it inevitable that it would be a central conflict, especially in a lot of the Romantic and Victorian fiction from which modern romance novels grew. I don't think it's innate...in fact, in other cultures the responsibility for bringing wealth into the marriage rests on the woman and her family...the pressures on new brides to bring a substantial dowry to a marriage are so high in India, with consequences like mental and physical torture and bride-burning, or even the abortion, murder, or suicide of daughters who are perceived as a financial burden by their families, that giving a dowry is now illegal (which has by no means ended the practice). In this case, a woman has become a means of securing money, rather than money being a means of securing a woman.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"It's reasonable to extrapolate the nature of that fantasy...."
Much as can be done with video games?
What then is the reasonable extrapolation of the person playing Grand Theft Auto?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)In practice, it's too dangerous, morally wrong and illegal to do in real life, so it's only practical to do it on a tv screen.
What I don't see is a massive rhetorical outpouring of righteous indignation at women who suggest that men are entertained by storylines about things that are illegal or antisocial.
In contrast, the mere suggestion that women's popular entertainment provides some insights into their fantasies and desires is subject verboten.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)so she never actually had to give up her wealth. In a knights tale he was knighted which conferred wealth and prestige. And Westley was a pirate king, not exactly a pauper.
Stories of women *actually* giving up wealth to live with a garbage man or the like are exceedingly rare and never go in to the minutia of life after the initial romance (fighting over bills, cutting out luxuries, forgoing any sort of material wealth and so on).
antigone382
(3,682 posts)...with no guarantee that she'll end up OK. And it's no surprise that schmaltzy romances have happy endings where the hero and heroine end up all right in every respect, including financially.
Are you arguing that abandoning wealth or the promise of wealth for "true love" are not very prominent themes in romance?
How about "Far and Away" with Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise...
A quick google search turned up a few titles that feature a "common-born" or poor romantic hero:
Homeward Hearts
The Leopard Prince
McKenna's Bride
...and several others
(I'm not into romance novels so I haven't thoroughly read the plots of each of these titles, but they were all mentioned by romance readers...I'm assuming most of whom were female...who specifically wanted to read romances with "regular guys" as the hero).
Then there are books that deal with the inverse. In Wuthering Heights, the main character chooses a the rich and socially acceptable man over the man who she truly loves, her orphaned childhood companion, the results of which more or less doom all three characters in the book (she dies from stress-induced illness, her lover turns more or less totally dark and bitter, and her husband suffers the consequences of his wife's death and her lover's revenge, ultimately dying young as well).
Going beyond "rich," there are all kinds of love stories where the female heroine chooses the less seemingly charismatic character because he is a better human being. Going beyond that, there are as many other romantic themes out there as anyone could think up...because as it so happens, women are an incredibly diverse lot and not all consumed with wealth or any other one thing.
Lastly, if male wealth is such a precondition for female interest, what's up with dowries? In India and other countries, female offspring are viewed as a burden and are often aborted, killed, or driven to suicide because of the pressure that supplying a dowry places on them and their families...and once they become brides, they are often tormented, abused, or killed in horrific ways by their husbands/husbands' families, if the wealth they bring into their new families is considered insufficient.
JVS
(61,935 posts)All her life she had that guarantee that she'd be well off.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)...another very popular romance directed at women where the heroine goes for the working class guy over the rich one.
There are tons of other examples of women choosing love over wealth, or of wealth not being much of a factor at all, in the cheesy romance sector. And of course 99% of them have impossibly happy endings. They're cheesy romances. The point is that the popularity of "50 Shades of Grey" among *some* women (with others finding it utterly trite and out of sync with their own romantic fantasies) does not provide evidence for the premise that a wealthy man is something that all women universally desire on some innate level (and even more troublingly, the idea that they enjoy being degraded by their wealthy lovers), as it is not borne out by an objective examination of the many kinds of silly romance stories that have appealed to women over time, where wealth is either an insignificant factor in the first place, or where wealth is a major obstacle towards true love.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)Because choosing love over money is one of the most universal themes in romance.
And of course they don't usually deal with the problems that would come after such a choice. It's romantic fiction...it's idealized and silly. Arguments over doing the dishes or paying the cell phone bill are not going to be included. What's your point?
Justitia
(9,317 posts)it's been kind of a hit for a very long time.....
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I'll have to read it again soon.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)who see all women as shallow creatures.
How about you? Are you one of those shallow males who looks for a hottie with large/silicone breasts, regardless of any other qualities? If so, then I hope you shallow people find each other.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,996 posts)Am I responsible for that?
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Maybe that was harsh of me. There are all kinds in this world, but not everyone is motivated by the same thing. That was my basic point.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)You're responsible for everything.
In fact, none of us are really here. We are all inside your head.
Do you know who you are?
Zalatix
(8,994 posts)It utterly pales in comparison to the portrayal of women in "50 Shades of Grey".
Utterly friggin pales.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Not me, man. Lifes too short.
lovuian
(19,362 posts)and yet on the NY times list
xmas74
(30,054 posts)but it's available for check-out online.
aquart
(69,014 posts)
eShirl
(20,244 posts)that's a strategy for getting kids to read it
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)antigone382
(3,682 posts)And a lot of women are saying that 50 Shades is harmful, degrading, and objectifying.
And even among women who do say that porn is harmful, degrading, and objectifying, the vast majority only say that certain *forms* of porn have this problem.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)The only reason I probably won't read it, is because it's ridiculously poorly written.
Other than that, I don't have a problem with it.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Some women like porn, some women like BDSM- In fact, I know lots of them.
Mz Pip
(28,446 posts)and this review sums up the books quite well.
In the middle of the second book one quote really jumped out at me. Anastasia is pondering her relationship with Grey and wonders "Why can't I endure pain for the man I love?" I found that very disturbing. She's beating up on herself because she can't endure being tied up and hit.
Abusive relationships in reality do have the woman continually trying to do whatever is necessary to please the guy. It's never enough. I can only hope that the readers of this book do not end up believing they can change a man's abusive behavior; that they can rescue him from his inner demons; if they just tried harder to understand and be there for him he will change his ways. It's a very unrealistic and dangerous message to send to a young, naive woman.
cali
(114,904 posts)and I'm stuck doing mostly nothing but reading and watching movies or TV while I wear a fucking electro-magnetic bone mender and nerve stimulators 8 hours a day.
It really does make the novels of my youth by Mary Stewart and Anya Seton and such look like masterpieces of great literature.
And yeah, it's really yucky as well as boring- and for the reasons elaborated on in the article.
xmas74
(30,054 posts)Thank goodness!
virgogal
(10,178 posts)the first book today and have no intention of reading the other 2.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)"Shades of Grey" is essentially "Twilight" fanfiction.
Fanfiction is usually really bad.
Twilight's original writing is the wost I've ever seen outside of self-publishing.
Do the math.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I figured it was teen girl schmaltz. I'm a bit old for that.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Behold; pony avatar.
I also enjoy a few lines of "young adult" fiction, such as Cherie Priest's "Clockwork Century" series. "Hunger Games" was readable, but not impressive.
Twilight was bad enough that I wanted to stick an electric toothbrush up my nose to try to scrub my brain of the little bits and pieces I allowed myself to remember.
Never read Twilight fanfiction... but I've read other fanfiction, and the quality is almost always below the quality of the original, and only very rarely on par - it's never better than the original material, since fanfiction is trapped within the confines of the original material.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I'm not sure why, but from what I have heard it jst simply doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. I'm not a prude. It just doesn't seem liike it's worth my time. There are so many other interesting books that I would like to read, this one just seems like a waste of time. I also can't stand books that are porribly written,
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)Has an epic cover to boot.
I don't understand why Fifty Shades is so popular except that old housewives just want to be manhandled or something. I don't get it.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)It's good so far (I'm not a fast reader, so haven't read much.)
Also, it's currently available for free at Amazon.com. Because I read Joe Konrath's blog, I saw his interview with the author, Melinda DuChamp, and the fact that I could download it for free. And then there's the cover:
http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2012/07/fifty-shades-of-alice-in-wonderland.html
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)You actually introduced me to that blog, and I read him regularly now.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)You might want to get the ebook he did with Barry Eisler ("Be the Monkey" which is really just some blog posts they did together a couple of years ago. I got it free, so it might still be available for free. The two of them really take the industry to task, as well as the authors propping the legacy publishers up. It was a fun read 
Always happy to share great sites like that, so it's good to see you enjoy it
noamnety
(20,234 posts)the disneyfied version of "if you just love them enough and put up with enough, you can change an abusive asshole into a prince."
It's no wonder when we teach that message to girls as a love story before they are old enough to realize the implications, they'll retain some of that message as adults and fantasize about it.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)Some of the Amazon reviews were hilarious, and those were enough for me to know I wouldn't be able to get through the books. And any women I know "devouring" the series are those without much sexual experience, which tells me something. And doesn't the woman get the Architectural Digest-worthy house (castle?) in the end? Maybe that's part of it.
I'll Netflix the movie, though, depending on who is cast in the lead roles.
Bozvotros
(961 posts)celebrating or at least focusing on narcissistic, histrionic, dominating women and the men who serve or service them. Or maybe it is just the same theme told a different way.
Consider the following television shows: Housewives of Orange County, Atlanta, New York, Miami etc, Mob Wives, NBA wives, the god awful Kardashians (all of them), Jersey Shores, Jerseylicious, Bridezilla, Bad Girls Club, America's Top Model and more all the time. To some degree you can add Sex in the City and Desperate Housewives and half a dozen other mini series with a similar kind of heroine. The female lead is usually a heavily made up, anorexic, surgically-enhanced-cleavage baring woman wielding almost total control over the men in their lives or venting fury because they can't. (For some reason I had this flash of Ann Romney wielding a riding crop on a cringing but excited Mitt Romney). Most of the men featured in these shows are simply foils for these women who seem to feel some entitlement to use and discard them for the privilege of being near them. And their relationship with other women is not much better. Lots of people must be watching a lot of this awful stuff because there is an awful lot of it on TV.
Perhaps this books popularity is because women are feeling this is an impossibly exhausting erotic ideal to achieve or maintain. Or maybe 50 Shades just presents another way to be someone's obsessive object and ultimately control them in the end. (Topping from the bottom). Both extremes seem deeply cynical and demeaning toward women and men.
Ghost of Tom Joad
(1,443 posts)except poorly written. The Twilight series is also poorly written and very successful. No accounting for taste apparently.
catrose
(5,364 posts)which explains a lot. No intention of reading/seeing either on my part.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/05/the-origins-of-50-shades-of-grey-go-missing.html
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)being out of control or losing control, and being controlled. I can't say it is was said in a nice way, and I think it only would only apply to a portion of a psyche (which is inherently complex), but if you look at romance novels and such as evidence of a fantasy life, it does seem to fit.
Bozvotros
(961 posts)I don't think that it is a lot of men watching those shows....unless someone is making them. Maybe you are saying it is their fantasy to be out of controlled or controlled by someone else because they feel exhausted by a need to stay in control. That kind of makes sense or at least it is similar to what they have been saying about business tycoons who visit a dominatrix to "relax."
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)...or, rather, that if someone says "these fantasies are female fantasies, and these fantasies are male fantasies", then tradition builds up around them and tends to direct people's thoughts and habits. Really, if we've learned anything about the mind and gender roles in the past few decades. its that mentally we are, or can be, free of gender distinctions. All roles and perspectives are human roles and perspectives, not gender-specific.
xmas74
(30,054 posts)I still haven't made it past chapter two. What a dull, boring book!
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)chapter two and I was snoring 
xmas74
(30,054 posts)and there's no way I can get myself to even open it.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)xmas74
(30,054 posts)And her stuff was a bit long winded.
I just can't read it.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Justitia
(9,317 posts)In the same vein, way better writing.
bedazzled
(1,885 posts)cover says "if you LIKED FIFTY SHADES OF GRAY."
i love anne rice, and that is clever marketing...
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)bedazzled
(1,885 posts)anne rice is a national treasure. the vampire books are my favorites.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And that predated much of the alleged "pornification" in society, which Dines (convolutedly) tries to blame for 50 Shades... It also contained the same sorts of allegedly "problematic" elements of consensual adult BDSM...
AND it spawned an absolutely horrible movie with Dan Ackroyd and Rosie O'Donnell, to boot.
Dana Delaney was hot in it, though.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)...in a leather corset!
Seriously, Dana Delaney was hot, and there were some scenes that were good, visually.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)but, yes, she could boss me around in any way she saw fit.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)And yes, the movie was AWFUL
aquart
(69,014 posts)
nolabear
(43,850 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)Raine
(31,174 posts)
Chorophyll
(5,179 posts)And what we read isn't necessarily what we want in real life. We read murder mysteries and war novels and medical dramas too. This book just happened to get hyped in a big way.
ETA: I haven't read it. Based on excerpts I've seen, the writing is AWFUL.
madmom
(9,681 posts)it just to say I did, so when the ladies (have a couple friends who loved it) start talking about it I am able to state my objections from an educated positions. I really hated that series 
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)it didn't work. Reading those books triggered some self-defense mechanism in my brain, and I forgot what iI read as soon as I turned the page. Now, I remember some events in hte story, owing mostly to them being so bizarre and unbelievable that it made me think Tom Green was the ghostwriter... but, yeah. I remember nothing specific.
Ever seen what happens to a fish if you smack two rocks together underwater? That's how I felt reading that series. Stunned and swimming in erratic circles.
xmas74
(30,054 posts)is about him watching her sleep and when he said that he really liked how she smelled. Those were total WTF moments.
I've forgotten everything else.
madmom
(9,681 posts)something, it triggers memories (or should I say nightmares). It really was a waste of time IMO.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)It became easier to make fun of them once I knew what I was making fun of.
Also, does anyone know how they avoided an R rating in the movie where the child fucking CHEWS HER WAY OUT of the girl's body?
Pholus
(4,062 posts)The only review of theirs that was just a picture.
Kingofalldems
(40,273 posts)
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)are adults, and are free to read whatever they choose to read, without needing anyone's permission to do so?
Just a thought ...
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)Sorry ...
Gemini Cat
(2,820 posts)just saw where people were wondering why it was so popular.
You may read whatever you like, no one will stop you, can you dig it?
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)I can also 'dig' what is said by people who deign to criticize and/or psycho-analyze what women choose to read, and why.
I think it falls into the none of anyone else's fuckin' business category - but that's just me.
Gemini Cat
(2,820 posts)Relax, it's not a big deal, read it or don't read it. 
Summer Hathaway
(2,770 posts)I'd be dead.
I just find it amusing when people start psychoanalyzing who's reading what, and why.
Gemini Cat
(2,820 posts)
Warpy
(114,602 posts)It was so sinfully over the top some of them cackled over it as satire while others were just openmouthed at a whole world they'd completely missed given the social constraints on the lives of women.
It's a vicarious experience of a life most of them would very sensibly try to avoid.
negativenihil
(795 posts)WHO CARES!
I'd rather see hundreds of people reading trashy novels than glued to reality TV.
Same goes for Twilight, or any other hyper popular book that a percentage of the population "just doesn't understand why its so popular".
Read a book, any book. Today.
JI7
(93,577 posts)JI7
(93,577 posts)or probably read similar crap pushed by the media. they probably liked twilight also.
Judgemental much?
adigal
(7,581 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I see nothing wrong with reading some Jane Austin and then reading some junk fiction.
I wasn't made aware of the Rules of Reading- Sweeping Generalizations Division.
adigal
(7,581 posts)I love my fun fiction, too, but it has to at least be well written.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)reading this book. I'd probaby scream and toss it out the window.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I haven't read the book, and probably won't, but what I've read about it suggests a difficult to reconcile paradox between what women fantasize about find to be interesting reading and what we're told they want/desire/respect.
Men get mixed messages. It's no surprise that people are confused.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)And you certainly can discover a lot about culture from examining such things...quite possibly, the popularity of powerless heroines and their powerful and dangerous male lovers among certain segments of the female population--and the revulsion towards those same stories by other segments of the female population--raises important points about both human diversity and the possibility that our romantic and sexual fantasies are influenced very heavily by our social environments.
I question the messages these books send to women about relationships, and I consider them a product of a culture that does not provide healthy models for any gender, but I don't roll my eyes at Twilight or 50 Shades out of some sense of feminist duty. I just find them silly and unappealing. I can't relate to the heroines in the story, and I'm not drawn to the heroes. They don't do it for me.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I don't have to appreciate the book to acknowledge that it fulfills an entertainment need for a great many readers.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)...and assuming that only women have purchased the book, that comes to about 15% of the female population...not an insignificant number, but nowhere close to even a majority.
Kablooie
(19,107 posts)I mean a full fifty shades of Grey. Whew! That's a lot.
I thought there were only three or four.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)Literally. There are actually 256 shades of grey, numbered 0-255.
I'm serious! Open MS Paint and go to greyscale mode, you'll see what I mean!
EOTE
(13,409 posts)Move up to 16-bit greyscale and... holy fuck that's a lot of grey.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Brainwashing my a misogynist society.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)that a poorly written work of fiction turn us all into sex zombies.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I imagine video games are part and parcel of the same sinister agenda?
Dorian Gray
(13,850 posts)but with sex.
Zyzafyx
(124 posts)awkd-g]rew
riverbendviewgal
(4,396 posts)my girlfriend started to read it and found it boring. We both have had extremely good sex in our relationships with our men, so I figured I could not bother reading it.
My other girlfriend just mentioned it yesterday and she said she found it so exciting but she also says she has not ever had an orgasm nor has she had sex in years. She does not even masturbate.. as she feels "too shy".
So maybe this novel turns on women who just don't have good sex or ever had any.
I had great sex with my husband when he was alive...I had good sex with partners after he died. Once you have that great sex you appreciate you did have it. As they say "it is better to have been loved, than never have loved." It is the same with good sex .
That is why I really can enjoy "Magic Mike". and remember those good times I once had. Wowie!!!
opiate69
(10,129 posts)Well, actually I didn't but, conflating mainstream porn and BDSM only serves to prove the fact that, despite Gail Dines' credentials, she is woefully and profoundly ignorant of both mainstream porn and BDSM.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Adults are getting off on something that other people consider "problematic" and it obviously implies all kinds of terrible heteronormative harmy flimflarn about male gaze patriarchy erotoxin brainwashing fitshnardlopriscipy hooznatitz!
Help! Quick, do something!
Yes, because a) there is a "good" kind of consenting adult sex (not the kind YOU like, sicko!) and b) of course, kink never existed before PORN DESTROYED OUR BEAUTIFUL MINDS!!!!
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Criticizing the writing is quite another. I once managed a sci-fi/comics/alt-lit shop and one of the weekend guys made an all time great observation about genre literature: "I can put up with bad science far more easily than I can put up with bad fiction." Too true.
AnnieBW
(12,707 posts)It started out as "Twilight" fanfic, with "Christian" being "Edward" and "Anastasia" as Bella. Frankly, it's for women that don't know how to find good BDSM erotica on-line, cheaper and better written. Not to mention one that doesn't have a sick relationship as the heart of it.
Response to AnnieBW (Reply #89)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
AnnieBW
(12,707 posts)`All they need to do is use the Google.
I'm not against erotica or smut. I'm against poorly written smut!
Response to AnnieBW (Reply #108)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)tends to be awful. Fan art can be quite lovely, but fan fiction is usually dreck.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)(there may be more, but these came to mind first.)
1. The source material
2. Taking the writing seriously.
The majority of fanfic I've read either didn't have good source material (any of the various cheap and overly popular anime, like Pokemon) or the writers didn't take their time to edit and/or ponder their story fully. All too often, I've offered some criticisms and gotten the typical response, "I'm just doing this for fun! Don't be so critical!"
Well, I've written some fanfiction ("I Dream of Jeannie" and it's always taken me months to finish a story. Because I take my writing seriously enough to edit and polish, not to mention creating a compelling story, one that even people not normally readers of fanfiction would want to read.
I haven't read either Twilight or 50 Shades due to having some standards in quality. I've had enough friends tell me not to bother. Bad writing quality turns me off even for subjects I like (djinn, centaurs, science fiction.)
Which reminds me, I have some editing to do
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)An awful lot of fanfic seems to be written by people with few if any writing skills. I have read some pretty decent fan fiction but you have to shovel an awful lot of coal to get to the few precious stones.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)with the same standards for quality
Even there, you'll still have to slog through some sub-standard stories. Of course, you won't have to read the whole thing, making it even less to deal with.
One thing that irks me about some writers of fanfic that I know is when they post something to fanfiction.net and it's substandard crap! I know they can do better, yet insist on falling back on the "I'm just doing it for fun" excuse. I write for fun, too (with the possibility that a non-fanfic story I have going will be published.) But I have personal standards, and it reflects badly on me to post stuff I wouldn't normally allow to see the Internet Light of Day. Why settle for less?
However, upon reading some of this epic thread, I see that this book is really a reflection of America today. Education standards are down from what they were decades ago. I'm not saying kids have to read the classics (in my younger years, I really abhorred Steinbeck's "The Pearl" yet loved Homer's "The Odyssey" and H.G. Wells' "The Man Who Could Work Miracles".) Only that their teachers get them to see what quality writing can be like and compare it to what's popular now.
Of course, it's difficult to fault any of these "lesser" writers for finding their audience, no matter how we may pick their writing styles apart. They're making millions entertaining people with what those masses want. I'll just reach for a more educated audience to entertain
Marr
(20,317 posts)There's always going to be an element of the taboo in pornography. People may be excited privately by abstract ideas or archetypes that they would find repellent in reality.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Why are we quoting her, here?
noamnety
(20,234 posts)She aligns herself with Marx and Chomsky, and everyone I know who's pushed her views is anti-corporate power, mostly self-proclaimed socialists. Very left wing, more left than most of DU and most democrats.
"The left has a long history of fighting capitalist ownership of the media. From Karl Marx to Antonio Gramsci to Noam Chomsky, leftist thinkers have understood the corporate media to be the propaganda machine for capitalist ideas and values. By mainstreaming the ideologies of the elite, corporate-controlled media shapes our identities as workers and consumers, selling an image of success and happiness tied to the consumption of products that generate enormous wealth for the elite class. Alternative views are at best marginalised and at worst ridiculed."
"Women's self-loathing is big business, and supports a global capitalist system that, ironically, depends heavily on the exploitation of women's labour in developing countries. Adding insult to injury, many of these underpaid women are spending a significant proportion of their wages on skin-whitening products that promise social mobility out of the sweatshops." Gail Dines and Julia Long
The religious right is not exactly known for their appreciation of feminist activists. (Although, come to think of it, neither are some people who consider themselves progressives.)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Authoritarians of all stripes, people with anti-sex, censorious, or other control agendas, seem to find convenient ways to pal up. Dines is being heavily flogged by the same people who tout the "science" of Anti-Gay bigot Judith Reisman.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)Even Obama does that from time to time. Doesn't make him rightwing. (although he's further right, I would argue, than Dines)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)That's not 'reaching across the aisle', it's working for the other team.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)However, there was no legislative agenda, either direct or implied, in any dealings with Rick Warren... unlike the likes of Dworkin and MacKinnon working with the Reagan Administration to fuck with the 1st Amendment.
It is good that we're unflinchingly critical of homophobic bigotry, though:
...which makes me wonder why people who have repeatedly praised the words and "science" of Judith Reisman, the same Judith Reisman who compared Student Gay-Straight Alliances to The Hitler Youth and blamed Gays for the Holocaust, are still allowed to post here.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)supposed to be about me, I have no idea who judith reisman in & doubt i've repeatedly praised her words and science.
so if you're saying i have, you're going to have to prove it.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Was the Rick Warren thing "supposed to be about" me?
That'd be funny, if it was.
No, no. But consider me helping you out, here- if you're seriously intending to commit yourself to the right-wing crusade against sex in movies, magazines, and books, it does help to be familiar with the names you're invariably going to be running across.
Like Dines.
And Reisman.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)I'm just pointing out that people do cooperate on legislation with the other party to meet a short term agenda goal, while opposing the vast majority of what that party stands for. Reference McCain-Feingold for instance.
So pointing to one joint effort on a specific topic as "proof" that someone is right or left wing fails a simple logic test. (If censorship of porn was the entirety of the republican platform, then you would be making a legitimate point.)
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 31, 2012, 05:23 AM - Edit history (1)
I've pointed out that the folks in the forefront of the so-called "anti-porn" movement are clearly deeply embedded with members of the religious right. Take a look at, for instance, who the trustees are of the "Lighted Candle Society", another group which has been favorably referenced in these threads.
It's not just "one joint effort"; it's been a long-term clear alliance, starting with MacKinnon and Dworkin and Meese, followed through to today. The reason for this is because the people deeply committed to censoring depictions or descriptions of consenting adult sex are a small, yet vocal, minority- most self-Described Feminists, for instance, don't want anything to do with censorship, or Dworkin, or the 2nd wave. So it's a minority. And the majority of that minority is comprised of religious fundamentalists.
As such, it's an alliance of desperation, or necessity in the case of folks like Reisman, because real, actual "scientists" who will spout gibberish about a picture of a naked boob being 100X more addictive than heroin, are hard to find indeed.
Beyond that, realistically... what "legislation" do you actually think is going to be achieved, here? Are you honestly under the impression that someone is going to start banning porn? Or Shitty erotic novels sold at Costco, for that matter?
I mean, talk about weird fantasies.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)You rejected the Rick Warren example because it wasn't legislative. By your argument then, Feingold was a right winger because he teamed up McCain to write legislation.
You can continue to do your guilt by association when convenient deal though, it seems to be part of your gig to discredit feminists and feminism in general. I would like to hear your thoughts on how we can change our culture so that rape is not so prevalent, since you clearly are rejecting her ideas. What are your suggestions for that? Does the men's group ever discuss that?
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Also, in case you haven't noticed, there are broad popular movements in Feminism (sex positive 3rd wavers, for instance) that reject the anti-porn censorship agenda of the likes of Dworkin, MacKinnon, Brownmiller, Dines, etc.
But, okay. Rape statistics are trending downward, you realize that, right?
I mean, one is too many. We can all agree on that.
Yes, in TMG, we do discuss it. Rape is not acceptable, nor are rape jokes. What are my "suggestions"? Well, one "suggestion" would be for certain people, like prominent self-proclaimed 2nd Wave Bloggers, to stop using what are at best charitably described as "extremely nuanced definitions of consent". No means no, each and every time. But that also implies that consenting adults who DO consent need the freedom and agency to make their own damn decisions. Which brings me to....
how did this come to be about "rape", exactly? Is 50 Shades of Grey about "rape"? I haven't read it, but I don't think it is. I think it's about consenting adult behavior. As is all the material Gail Dines rails against. What consenting adult sex has to do with "rape", exactly... Ever wonder why you're being told to mix up those things?
And see, if the anti-porn people were right and, say, pictures of consenting adults fucking had jack diddly to do with causing or otherwise facilitating rape, the statistics would be going up (what with the "pornification" and all) instead of down.
Right?
zazen
(2,978 posts)It would give someone harmed in the making of pornography the right to sue the pornographers to get it off the shelves and to sue for compensatory damages.
Also, the family of the little Asian girl who was hanged from a tree in Chapel Hill two weeks after the January 1985 Penthouse issue of girls hanging from trees could sue for compensatory emotional damages, if they could illustrate the influence of the material.
There are many civil cases where plaintiffs have won on issues with much less obvious causation and less harm (hot coffee, robbers getting harmed when trespassing on someone else's property).
This was for CIVIL harm, not criminal. And it didn't entail prior restraint.
Fortunately, since the legislation, at least the presence of pornography in a work environment can be grounds for suing on the basis of creating a hostile environment for women.
I don't see you arguing that a worker putting up pictures of barely legal hot sluts being double penetrated in the workplace around his female co-workers ought to be protected speech.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)If one believes that ANY act of hetero sex is inherently oppressive or "degrading" to all women, everywhere, of course it makes sense (after a fashion) to try to claim that women as a class should be able to recoup damages from the depiction of "harmful acts" (ie sex)
Under the Dworkin-MacKinnon-Meese proposal, women as a class could sue over ANY depiction of hetero sex, because the act itself is deemed, in that line of thinking, to be an inherent act of oppresssion.
There are LOTS of places you cant do things, which is why despite my commitment to choice and freedom, i understand bans on smoking n indoor public spaces. Restricting WHERE you can do something is not the same as outlawing it entirely.
No, you cant put up a lot of things at work, but thats not what this is about, any of it.
A little honesty would be nice.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)Just kidding....
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)During the performance of noted grunge act Jerry and the Dworkulons.
zazen
(2,978 posts)I remember reading it through several times and don't recall seeing that at all.
I assume you've read the Indianapolis and Minneapolis ordinances carefully or you wouldn't presume to make the claims you do above.
Dworkin lived with her lover John Stoltenberg until she died, and MacKinnon is quite straight (and has good taste, if you've ever taken a look at her seriously hot and brilliant ex-paramour Jeffrey Masson), so I would presume they've frequently enjoyed erect penises like the rest of us. It's just better when it's one aspect of a multifaceted human being who treats like you like you're a full human being too.
Every anti-pornography activist I know is quite into sex and lots of it. This thread said it better than any--crap like this book, and worse, gonzo stuff where people are literally hurt and it's doubtful that 30% are over 18, sober, non-battered and/or non-trafficked--is unimaginative and stupid. And repetitive and bor-ing.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And evidence of this figure- what is it, 70%?- are underage?
Really?
That's an absolutely astounding allegation, there.
So, yeah, let's see some proof.
Now, as to the Minn. Ordinances:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharine_MacKinnon#Antipornography_ordinances
The amendment defined pornography as a civil rights violation against women, and allowed women who claimed harm from pornography to sue the producers and distributors for damages in civil court.
Exactly. And WHY did it "define pornography as a civil rights violation against women"? Because it was based upon an axiomatic idea that SEX (and so, certainly, graphic depictions thereof) is in and of itself a political act that inherently oppresses women. This notion is central to EVERYTHING Dworkin wrote in the 70s and early 80s.
The Minnesota ordinances were CLEARLY drafted with MacKinnon and Dworkin's batshit "theories" about sex in mind. First and foremost, again, that the act of sex itself is inherently oppressive to women. This is, sorry, boilerplate basic "radfem 101". I am not making it up.
The fact that Dworkin supposedly lived with a man during part of her life, does not negate the fact that she swore off hetero sex and considered it, again, "immune to reform" (that's a direct quote). Even the man she lived with, Stoltenberg, felt she had gone completely bugfuck insane by the end of her life, when she was concocting strange stories about giant phantom penises pursuing her across the Champs Elysees.
And these crazies' theories about the inherent degrading nature and 'political oppressiveness' of sex were not limited, sadly, to MacKinnon and Dworkin, they live on, again, in the minds of the 2nd wave anti-porn folks who carry the censorship banner:
http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com/2011/07/18/a-bit-of-lighthearted-fun/
joshcryer
(62,536 posts)...
nolabear
(43,850 posts)It is SO badly written. Anastasia may be the most annoying protagonist on the face of the earth, and I fear for any woman over 25 (up to then you get a youth and inexperience pass in my book) who identifies with her eye-rolling, lip-biting shallowness.
That said, there's a theory in psychology that women have always been so disrespected for having sexual desires and the urge to just get laid without it being within carefully proscribed social restraints that the "I have no choice" option is a fantasy not of pain or subjugation but of freedom to go outside the norm. The author beats this idea to death with her contract (DAMN that contract went on forEVER) and safe words and more condom wrapper ripping than I ever want to hear about in my natural life.
I think there might be something to the theory, and the reason a fantasy is best just that rather than something to justify acting on and flirting with real disaster. So far (and I may never finish the thing and find out any better) Grey has the childhood traumas, attachment issues and tendencies of a sociopath and a real life one would scare the crap out of me no matter how well his jeans hung off his hips.
obamanut2012
(29,357 posts)Consensual, loving relationship, and two very good actors. It's also quite funny.
("Lost" fans: Jeremy Davies has a supporting part.)
TheCruces
(224 posts)progressivebydesign
(19,458 posts)I have read enough about it to completely agree what what was written here.
Women have been so far removed from the struggles of their foresisters to make things equal, that they blindly bought what Corporate America needed them to be, 'women who care more about the height of their heels, and the size of their thighs, than they care about equality." If I see one more business-woman on a blog, or Pinterest, or FB, or twitter listing themselves as a "wife, Mommy, and business owner," I'll puke.
it's that same mentality. The stupid book is a fad. It's Harlequin Romance with porn.
Lone_Star_Dem
(28,158 posts)I won't even begin to go into how Fifty Shades of Grey is not a realistic depiction of that specific type of kink. I will say I read a portion of the first book and couldn't read more. The protagonist was irritating, idiotic and one dimensional. The author has no skills at creating believable characters, nor at fleshing them out with words. It was simply one of the worst reads I've ever attempted.
As to why it's a success...I think perhaps it's because too many people don't know there are kinky, steamy novels written for women by authors who actually know how to write. Even still, I don't know how so many people have managed to suffer through such a horrific piece of tripe in print form.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)but but but butbutbut patriarchy heteronormative gender harmy harm phalloppressive male gaze objectification PIV 'so-called consent' eyeroll eyeroll heavy sigh patriarchal blahblah!
Blah!
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)People liked to be entertained.
Read them all - just a love story really, all it is.
Let people have fun.
Fascism sucks.
AnnieBW
(12,707 posts)Seriously. I've written better fanfic than that! I'm not against smut. I'm against really poorly written smut!
eShirl
(20,244 posts)if looking ever even occurred to them.
pinstikfartherin
(500 posts)After reading the first Twilight book, I fell into the twilight fan fiction because although it wasn't great writing, at least a lot of it was more adult and better writing than Twilight itself.
This was originally titled "Master of the Universe" and wasn't even good fan fiction... and 99% of fan fiction isn't good in the first place. It wasn't even worth reading the first chapters for free, let alone paying for it. I've come across only a couple of fan fiction works that I felt would be worth the price if re-written, cleaned up, and sold because their plots were actually more original, their characters were out of character from the originals, and they kept my attention. This was definitely not one of them.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)
a la izquierda
(12,326 posts)And this from someone who reads a lot.
But i was also beaten by a guy. No need to read about it.
cecilfirefox
(784 posts)First, it puts the 'submissive' person in a very... Slightly negative light. Sort of the, ' I'd never do this for any person... But THIS man, omg! ' and rightly so, queue /fairytale. There's also an accusation that the male romantic partner, the authoritative, manly, 'dom' in the relationship is somewhat presented as damaged. As if he'd be fixed if he only found the right woman.
Also, I've read better erotic fanfiction. Fifty Shades of Grey is actually pretty... Light in terms of erotica.
Its grocery store porn.
KatyaR
(3,639 posts)A friend lent me the books, but when I found out what they were about, I gave them back. Totally unappealing to me....
JI7
(93,577 posts)pushed by the media , sucks, people buy into it because of all the promotion and shit.
pnwest
(3,464 posts)
AsahinaKimi
(20,776 posts)heard of it, and probably not interested in reading it.. in fact, it sounds like something I would pass on.
TheManInTheMac
(985 posts)and they had three pallets of those books, one pallet for each volume, right at the entrance. Three whole pallets stacked waist high. I thought, "no freakin way they're gonna sell that many copies." Sure enough, two weeks later, the pallets were gone and the remaining stock had been moved to their regular book table.
mikeytherat
(6,829 posts)mikey_the_rat
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)They still make that kind of porn?
Response to HiPointDem (Original post)
seaglass This message was self-deleted by its author.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)say it is a crappy book and couldnt get thru it. it is the same pr hype of the crappy written tattoo girl. another book of continual violence, mutilation, and degrading of women only to be held up as the greatest book ever. it is a very good example of how people are conned by pr work
http://www.amazon.com/Fifty-Shades-Grey-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B007J4T2G8/ref=zg_bs_154606011_4
redqueen
(115,186 posts)and said, 'PASS!'
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I imagine there are as many different reasons people read the book as there are readers... I would think that applies to most works of fiction.
But at the end of the day, I imagine many of us will pretend we have an absolute answer, an inerrant extrapolation, or the perfect inference.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)The reviews I've seen though really make my stomach turn so I'll pass. I'm reading the hobbit to my kids now anyway. Way more my speed
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)I guess they aren't supposed to watch porn so this is finally some version that they can acceptably talk about with their friends.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I know it's not on my list of possible reads.
I read a couple of hundred books a year. When I can't find something new that's worth my time, I'll reread favorites.
The exception being the ya stuff my students read, but that's not for enlightenment or entertainment, unless it's good.
tjwash
(8,219 posts)
RebelOne
(30,947 posts)
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)All three long, long, miserable volumes of it. It took three days of concentrated Discworld to quell the nausea, and I had many brain cells pack their bags and leave.
The sex isn't the problem with the books. The psychotic lead character is the problem with these books. The sex was as badly written as the rest of the books, and just wasn't exciting. The stalking and screaming tantrums and controlling behavior came through a lot more vividly than the sexytimes.
Butterbean
(1,014 posts)I read it at the behest of my swooning girlfriends. I am a wee bit (okay, a lot) OCD about books and finishing things, so once I suffered through the first book, I had to suffer through the other 2. I had no idea it was Twilight fanfic before I started reading it, either, which I should have figured out immediately, because I instantly hated Anastasia as much as I hated Bella.
The sex was okay the first time, maybe the second, however after a while, I just got tired of it and found myself scrolling past it in my Kindle. Also, that much sex with a woman who is a first timer would surely cause not only a flaming UTI, but also her labia and other parts would surely be swollen, raw, and painful, no matter how much natural lubricant was there. I have no idea how her vagina didn't fall out in protest.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)which is the only reason I continued on through to the end. It wasn't so bad through the second and third books; the first one acts like a shot of morphine to the brain cells.
I have never read a worse book. I have read some that were just as bad, but most of them were Harlequin.
ellie
(6,975 posts)Last edited Tue Jul 31, 2012, 11:04 AM - Edit history (1)
I'm trying to wrap my head around that one.
Scout
(8,625 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Don't you?
hack89
(39,181 posts)Response to HiPointDem (Original post)
BOG PERSON This message was self-deleted by its author.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)you might be mistaken.
Anyway, the censors and prudes all seem to be gravitating towards the GOP, these days.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I like sex, and I fully admit it.
flamingdem
(40,885 posts)
Ezlivin
(8,153 posts)N/T
eilen
(4,955 posts)I have no interest in it. I think _The Story of O_ pretty much covered this stuff and was probably better written. I don't plan to read this stuff to prove to myself it sucks. I believe the horrible reviews. The success of this trilogy is not a surprise to me in a time of schlocky reality tv, and of course the most recent novels that have been very popular the last few years. Mostly they have been young adult novels which to me are pretty much dumbed down in plot, character development etc. The popularity of the Harry Potter novels (while a delightful children's serial that gradually became darker as they aged) which were a big disappointment at the end (writing/plot wise) and the characters were pretty 2 dimensional, the Twillight series, awful awful-- I hated all the principals. I couldn't for the life of me like the main character who seemed very boring and withdrawn even before she met any boring vampires. I am hesitant to read the first installment of The Hunger Games-- mostly because I prefer adult level fiction as it is more complex, nuanced and interesting. If I want to read erotica, I know where to find good erotica.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And he doesn't skimp on the sex, either.
eilen
(4,955 posts)it will probably be another 5 years until the next.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)...slather on the makeup, etc. It's fashionable.
Dirty stories for girls, from M&B bodice rippers, to graphically written, highly disturbing rape fantasies have been around for centuries. 50 shades simply owes its success to the right tweet at the right time from the right person.
Katie
(674 posts)Loved it & so do my friends...maybe it's an age thing. Maybe if your older, I don't know, maybe it's too much ? I was never into Romance novels, but I heard so much about this book, I thought...what the heck...give it a try.
I was surprised by some of the posts here...I really don't know how you can criticize anything by reading two pages of it or by reading the reviews.
Is it a classic or a masterpiece? Hell, no. Is it very sexual? Hell, yes. But it's more.
I'm surprised at the author of the counterpunch article. No where in any of the books, is any of the sex forced on the female character Anastasia. Nor does he abuse her. It's all consensual sex. It's up to her if she wants to participate, her dilemma is whether or not she can deal with a strictly sexual extremely kinky relationship.
He is looking for a submissive, it's plain and simple. She doesn't know that at first or have any experience with that type of lifestyle, until he explains it to her. She is young (20's), she is beautiful and very attracted to the male character Christian. He warns her from the very beginning that he isn't her "type". Yet, she is drawn to him. He's described as young (20's, if he was older, it might have been gross..."dirty old man" kind of thing), extremely good looking , and a self made millionaire.
I think what held my interest, and it did my friends, is how did Christian got involved in such deviant sexual behavior, It's clear he can have any woman he wants, yet he never has or wants a girlfriend....the only use he has for women, is sex. He must remain detached at all times. And you wonder about Anastasia, can she accept that kind of relationship.
But as you read, you start to understand his character more, in fact you feel sorry for him. He describes himself at one point as a sadist. But that isn't exactly the correct term. And as you see the relationship between him and Anastasia grow, you realize he is "Fifty Shades of Fucked Up" for a reason.
There is a very soft loving side to him, one he can't bear to show. He begins to talk about his background, and little by little, you see what he went through as a child, and a young adult, and you wonder how he ever survived. Basically he is a very tormented individual, but she begins to break down the walls, and he begins to see her more as a person than an object, and a loving relationship develops between them. Perhaps that's what so many women love about the book.
I guess the best way to describe some of the sex is what they call "Kinky Fuckery" and it's something they both enjoy. And quite frankly I don't see what's so terrible about it. It sure wasn't boring, no one gets seriously hurt, and it can be stopped at anytime, and some of it, is a lot of fun. Tried out a few of the things with my husband and we both loved it.
The reason I read all three, is I was interested in seeing whether or not their relationship would continue. Whether he would grow as a person and continue a loving relationship or not.
So,I was surprised by some of the posts I saw here tonight...maybe because I'm a New Yorker, and there are so many of us, I run into women constantly who just loved the book, and there is an awful lot of them and they can't stop talking about it. In fact the hardware store down the block sold out of a cable. Glad we got ours before it did. LOL!
As far as Women and what they like...it's every woman for herself I guess. What you like you like, what you don't..its fine. I've never seen Men questioned about why they like Playboy. Both sexes enjoy fantasy, I think. As far as women liking porn, I'm sure some do. As for porn movies, that can be a turn off for some women because they are always wondering if the actresses are being forced, because sometimes there is a lot of violence or maybe if they are doing it because they need drugs or money. Books...you don't have to worry....no gets hurt in real time.
Anyways, it's meant to be enjoyable reading more than anything else, it's not going to win a Pulitzer Prize for Literature, but it's going to make a ton of money, because so many people enjoy it. It doesn't advocate abuse. Just have fun with it, it's not meant to be serious.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)First, if you read all 3 of the books you'll find that they did get married and have kids.
Second, he never forced the relationship on her. This isn't a woman in an abusive relationship, she was given a choice of that lifestyle and she found that she did like the spanking and some of the rough sex but she said 'No' to anything with cans or cats.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with rough sex if both parties are consensual in it. BDSM is a lifestyle choice and she choose NOT to be a submissive but ultimately did agree that she enjoyed some of the rough play and consented to it. And at all time she had the power to stop it if she felt it was too much, something she failed to do in the first book but did several times in the 2nd and 3rd book. And when she did say stop - he stopped.
Thing is this - in the end he changes for her and went all hearts & flowers and ended up giving her the romance and great sex. I think that is why women appeal to the book because for many women we want to have it all - rich opulent lifestyle with gorgeous husband and fun sex life.
Personally I found the books to be poorly written - it was like erotica written at a 7th grade level. And it was annoying that it seemed like EVERYDAY something really huge happened whether she had a gun pulled on her by one of his ex-subs, she was sexually harassed by her boss or he was in a helicopter crash. I mean the books, outside the epilogue in the 3rd one) basically happen over a 4-5 month period and well that was pretty unbelievable.
I read the first one because I wanted to see what all the hubub was about. I read the second & third ones because no one wrote the plot summaries on Wiki and I wanted to find out what happened. Had someone created Wiki pages for those 2 books I suspect I wouldn't have bought the last 2. Kinda wish I stopped with the first book because I'm not a big 'hearts & romance' type person myself and that's what it all turned out to be.
but I will remind you again EVERYTHING THE GIRL DID IN THE BOOK WAS HER CHOICE.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)You see that a lot in relationship stories aimed at women. Not so much the other way around.
Men seem to be (generalizing) happy with the way things are. Women with the way things will be.
Could explain differences in stress, depression, mental health, etc.
Katie
(674 posts)The Character of Christian had major problems, even if he didn't change for her, he needed to change for himself. He was not a happy man. He had so many demons from the childhood abuse that he suffered. And later an affair with an older woman who got him into BDSM, when he was a teenager. He didn't know how to give or get love, yet there was a soft side to him underneath it all. He refers to himself as "Fifty Shades of Fucked Up". And was he ever.
It was good to see him change into a man at peace with himself and finally have a loving relationship.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)she isn't just changing him for fun. He needed her to "fix" him.
Katie
(674 posts)For the life of me I couldn't understand what the author of that article on counterpunch was talking about. Sounded to me like she didn't even read the book.
Everything Anastasia did, she did willingly. Anything she didn't want to do, she didn't. It was that simple. He never beat her because he was angry or she wouldn't comply. He never hit her if he was in a bad mood either. Thank you for setting that straight!
I'll agree with you, this was neither a classic or a masterpiece...it was just plain fun. I love the movie "To Kill a Mockingbird" but I can also laugh my ass off at "Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy" LOL!
Agree also..... What's wrong with having great sex with your husband? What's not to like about that? It's so much fun to experiment. And I'm sure husbands feel the same way about their wives...otherwise....what's the point of even getting married?
I think the author did stretch a bit in the 2nd and 3rd book, but maybe because I am a romantic, I was glad they got married and had children. I was also happy for him, because he was really a tormented soul, all that abuse by his crack addict mom and her pimp, and later the older woman who got him into BDSM. Finally he seemed at peace, able to enjoy his wife, his children & his life.
I understand the 4th book will be written from his point of view. Should be interesting.
Thanks again!
Akoto
(4,301 posts)
Mr Dixon
(1,185 posts)
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)But judging from this thread that must be wrong because the books are so horrible no one is actually reading them...
Zalatix
(8,994 posts) 
Brainstormy
(2,540 posts)I couldn't get past the turn off of the bad writing. Yuk.