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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI havent spoken to my Born Again sister in 10 years
Im willing to bet shes a Deplorable now so Im fine with it.
The last time we talked she was a Born Again Christian and we argued about God and, to her, his hatred of The Gay. She claimed god is a jealous god who demands obedience and fealty and that he has commanded that she hate Gays. I asked her why god would hate what he created with his supposed unconditional and boundless love. She accused me of trying to brainwash her and order her on what to believe. I recognized the religious brainwashing and ended the call as a lost cause.
She wrote me a letter describing in great detail the punishment I was going to get in eternal hell. Three pages of it! I'm pretty sure she enjoyed every imagined gory detail of it.
I did get one valuable thing out of it though. Religious zealots, of which we have plenty, may talk of gods Great love but what they believe in is his unconditional hatred of those he chooses to hate and his jealousy of their absolute fealty and in his wrath if hes disobeyed.
They follow Trump with this fealty because he is just like their god. Mean, petty, vindictive, and demanding they hand him their loyalty and obedience. All they need is for their preachers to tell them what God demands they do. Trump is something they understand intimately. A perfect reflection of the God they worship.
awesomerwb1
(4,268 posts)What happened to simply "burning in hell"?
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Each one is more awesome than the last! God may hate religious variety, but obviously loves variety in his punishments.
We should be thankful he doesnt have a twitter account!
awesomerwb1
(4,268 posts)into burning in hell. But now that you mention it....
Anyways, God -does- have a Twitter account.
Upthevibe
(8,072 posts)has happened regarding Christianity. I was raised as a Presbyterian and it was NOT like this. Our Minister was a wonderful man whose messages (sermons) resonated with me and brought much comfort. It's absolutely horrifying what has happened. I blame this almost completely on politics and the Religious Right. As an adult, I'm very into "spirituality" but not religion. The "Christ Consciousness" isn't being practiced by many (or probably most) of these so-called Evangelicals." It's sickening. I'm sorry you've had to go through this.
csziggy
(34,138 posts)I have not real idea what their tenets are but it is not the same as when I was a kid. It broke my Dad's heart since he had attended that church since he was a tot. Dad still contributed to the church but he stopped going. Mom felt so strongly about it, when Dad died she refused to have his service in the church - it was held at the funeral home instead.
And here's the thing - even though over the decades (since 1925) my family donated tens of thousands of dollars to that church, no one from it visited Dad during his final years. Mom has not gotten a single visit from anyone connected to that church in the five years since Dad died even though she is still contributing money to them. Mom even compiled and published the history of that church years ago, but no one associated with it has given her a moment of time.
Even if they didn't feel any Christian charity, they should at least feel some obligation to members who have given them so much lucre over all those years!
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)I dont imagine thats improved in the last 10 years.
keithbvadu2
(36,923 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)irisblue
(33,034 posts)I have family members who 'Are Born Again.' It hurts at times.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)1) Hell is just separation from God for all of eternity.
2) The furnace theory of Hell is silly
3) God or at least my God doesn't instruct me to hate anybody.
Baconator
(1,459 posts)He says what you want him to say...
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)This is what God hates:
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.
Proverbs 6 16-19&version
Sounds more like Trump than any gay person I know.
SCantiGOP
(13,874 posts)that would be my formula for Donald J.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)And it's written in English, so no one overaly concerned with foreign languages will have any problems translating it.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)The only one open to debate is "shedding innocent blood."
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)angrychair
(8,733 posts)I enjoy reading your input and respect your opinions but religion, any religion, encapsulates everything that is wrong with the world and all of humanity, now and throughout human history.
Think about how much easier things would be today in America without religious idiots screwing things up. We would be so much further ahead, socially and intellectually, than we are now. Racism, sexual bigotry, xenophobia, misogyny and child abuse all have deep roots in religion.
As much as you likely ascribe yourself to the kinder, gentler god that is simply branding and not who has their fingers on the economic, social and intellectual triggers, ready to blow themselves up and destroy it all and bring about the end times for their god here in America.
I always laugh when I hear at least Christians dont use bombs like Islamic terrorist because the truth is they do use figurative weapons of mass destruction that do far more damage and have greater impact than any single act of a bomber.
Religion is the bane and the likely death of all humanity.
Maeve
(42,288 posts)I was brought up the same way, but lost faith in the way churches are run anymore. If I beleive anything, that is the sort of faith I still hold to.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)Dem_in_Nebr.
(301 posts)Laffy Kat
(16,386 posts)I would be devastated if I had a split with my sis like that. It must be difficult.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)I miss her old self. She was far more loving then than she is as a Born Again.
I think she just full of fear.
trixie2
(905 posts)I am not joking. How can anyone with love turn against a family member because an institution says so? How hard must her life be to live in hatred every day. She can't see it now but one day she will and will feel a loss none of us can comprehend.
Laffy Kat
(16,386 posts)She is still the same person,she is still your sis.
brooklynite
(94,739 posts)They're probably having a special on shrimp.
phylny
(8,389 posts)I dont get your reference. I must have missed those discussions.
irisblue
(33,034 posts)There a fair number of restrictions, dietary & social in the Old Testament.
brooklynite
(94,739 posts)...who believes in the "angry god" of the OT,
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)Like cotton-poly blends?
elleng
(131,129 posts)this when I was about 11 years old.
rurallib
(62,450 posts)Decent of her to go into great detail of the punishment you will endure.
It has been so enlightening to see the evangelicals have to twist their "firmly held beliefs" to accommodate this con man. And of course it hasn't only been evangelicals. Every trump supporter must put aside any integrity to support one of the biggest cons in history.
Too bad it is your sister. Maybe at some point she will realize the scam she fell prey to.
niyad
(113,581 posts)has to be seriously ill.
and, of course, the eternal damnation for our very brief human lifespans seems more than a bit whacked.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Living in that kind of fear can make you cleave to obedient behavior, just in case you ever piss God off.
dawg
(10,624 posts)I guess most of us have a few people in our families who go off the deep end. I certainly have my share.
For what it's worth, I'm a Christian. I grew up going to a Southern Baptist Church, and I consider myself "born again".
But, in my way of thinking, your sister is not thinking in a Christ-like fashion if she feels compelled to *hate* anyone. Jesus prayed for his murderers even as they were crucifying him.
There is a real spirt of hate in this country, and much of it winds its way through our churches. (I would call it a spirit of anti-Christ, but I don't want to sound like too much of a religious nutball.)
The answer is for us all to love one another, as much as is humanly possible. Some days that is hard.
niyad
(113,581 posts)and then I found this:
thbobby
(1,474 posts)A movement arose of "flagellates" who went from village to village flogging themselves to prove themselves to god(?). Kind of like trump voters. Willing to suffer and make America suffer to justify stupidity(?), hatred(?), who the hell knows what.
shanny
(6,709 posts)Mariana
(14,861 posts)They believed God was punishing everyone for tolerating the existence of Jews and heretics living among them, so they murdered them. Today, many Fundamentalist Christians believe God will similarly punish everyone because we've tolerated the existence of the homosexuals, Muslims, atheists, etc. etc. etc.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Obey-or-die is a simple commandment that appeals to simple minds, and excuses any petty cruelty in which they want to indulge.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)From your brief description, it does sound like there is a health problem of some sort. Some sort of obsessive behavior. Quite honestly though, I've known a few born agains that over a 10 year period get vastly less strident. Passions can temper themselves over time. It's a bit like reformed alcoholics, at first everyone they know is an alcoholic that needs their help. After a while they lose the need to save everyone.
Write your sister a letter. 10 years is a long time.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)So, yeah.
erronis
(15,339 posts)We all go through a lot of changes and some of those changes can trigger reactions that might have not been exposed before. And we all do brain-rewire during our lives. Stress and other environmental factors can cause this. That being said we can all engage in thoughtful activities that actually make us more competent and more aware of our environment.
Unfortunately once someone starts to slip down a slope that limits outside stabilizers the slope becomes more precipitous.
I've known several bi-polar and other friends that really don't have control over how they feel. And when the high or the low hits, who know what might happen.
Mariana
(14,861 posts)That includes just about everyone who doesn't believe exactly as they do. That's just one of the things they do. With Christian cults like your sister's, it doesn't help that the Bible contains material to support many of their views. I'm very sorry.
keithbvadu2
(36,923 posts)gratuitous
(82,849 posts)In the first Avengers movie, Hawkeye and Poison Ivy are battling invading aliens intent on taking over Earth. As they get into the thick of battle, Poison Ivy exclaims, "This is just like Budapest all over again!" Hawkeye nocks another arrow into his bow and observes laconically, "You and I remember Budapest very differently."
When I engage with someone whose concept of God is a murderous psychopath who will torture you forever if you don't agree to be his best friend, my response is "You and I read the Bible very differently." The conversation usually ends there.
earthshine
(1,642 posts)Get it straight please!
gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Which doesn't rule out the possibility that you're not incorrect.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)My wife was nothing but an intolerable sinner until they came upon hard times and needed some money.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)that God helps those who help themselves doesnt it? Its what they help themselves to that matters.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,874 posts)(paraphrasing):
God created you and is all loving and all merciful.
But, if you choose the wrong religion or break the wrong rule, he will send you to eternal torment in Hell.
Why? Because he loves you!
Marty Marzipan
(67 posts)... to have someone's mind destroyed by religion.
Initech
(100,104 posts)I swear Fox News is creating the world's largest cult, and that's scary.
keithbvadu2
(36,923 posts)Initech
(100,104 posts)They work in secret. They have a charismatic leader. Their pundits are like the cardinals. Their buildings are huge and elaborate fortresses. The only thing missing is the robes.
keithbvadu2
(36,923 posts)sandensea
(21,672 posts)Here's hoping for a reconciliation. Blood is blood, after all.
Paladin
(28,275 posts)The whole unfortunate situation appears to be your sister's doing, something she'll ultimately regret. And I say that as a Christian of the non-Born Again variety who believes God truly does love us, one and all.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Live and let live. For some reason she needs these beliefs. I have no hatred of her. Just a lot of regret about the way things have turned out so far. We were close growing up. She was much more Christian then, even without religion.
Paladin
(28,275 posts)kairos12
(12,873 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)VOX
(22,976 posts)If you dont repent (ugh), you go to eternal damnation without ANY chance of redemption at that point theres no working your way out of it, or doing your time. You are screwed for ETERNITY.
What kind of god DEMANDS that you love him (of course its a DUDE), and if you refuse, hell torture you by roasting you forever? Is that truly love?
Love me or else. If another person says that to us, we sensibly head for the hills. But an all-knowing, all-seeing deity that is so insecure he forces people to worship and adore him, or hell throw you in the furnace?
That kind of theology puts god on the level of Hitler total, unswerving loyalty, or you face execution. Who would want an insane dictator as a deity? Someone with zero self-esteem, or someone so dumb that theyre just along for the ride.
Pepsidog
(6,254 posts)geardaddy
(24,931 posts)"No, I got it right the first time."
Your sister sounds like a nut. So sorry that you have to endure that shit.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)I can only believe that people that act such as your sister, are in desperate need of professional help. Because that kind of behavior comes from some deep seated jealousy or mental disorder.
I hope one day she gets the help she desperately needs.
efhmc
(14,732 posts)teaching of love and acceptance of all people. Here is what I am reading now: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/372623.Rescuing_the_Bible_from_Fundamentalism. (only because what I was reading on my phone shut down for lack of power and it was available)I find it fascinating in the author's scholarly approach to the history of both new and old testaments. I did not realize that the author had debated Jerry Falwell in the 90's. Going to try to search for those.
Didn't mean to go off on my thing. I find these zealots to be mentally unsound and wish them healing and spiritual health. I hope that you are able to put this in the mental trash basket and not be hurt.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I gotta agree. Zealots suck. Religious, political, financial, or national fanatics and radicals proselytizing their dogmatic One True Path to Freedom tend to be bores (at best).
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)So glad I'm a born again atheist.
The supreme being has a lot of the same hang ups that my ignorant bigoted family has. Funny how that works.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)
..of why they like Trump and see him as almost magical. Also, I think many of their authoritarian fathers are punitive and vindictive like this.
George Lakoff's theory comes to mind.
Skittles
(153,193 posts)it is hard to cut off family members but you did the right thing - stuff like that is not good for YOUR mental health.....so many people think they have to tolerate family because, well, it's family - no, they do NOT.........ditch these kind of people and be around folk who love you for who you are and who truly care
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Many times families are much better off not staying close.
Three hail Mary's and call me in the morning.
DUgosh
(3,058 posts)Joined John Hagees Cornerstone church San Antonio in the mid nineties. Probably spoken less than one hundred words apiece since then. I dont even miss them anymore.
hurl
(938 posts)I grew up immersed in similar beliefs, and many of my family members still are not free of them. I think it comes down to the fact that some people have a hard time fathoming an 'us' without a 'them.'
pansypoo53219
(20,997 posts)pretty sure jesus didn't mention teh gays. OR ABORTION.
pazzyanne
(6,557 posts)She gives me lectures mostly from the Old Testament and Revelations, and I counter with New Testament quotes which really angers her for some reason. We both grew up in the Lutheran church so I really do not get it at all. I just know I had to put her out of my life for my own sanity. It hurts, but it is healthier for me. Thanks for sharing.
world wide wally
(21,755 posts)LiberalFighter
(51,096 posts)woundedkarma
(498 posts)Religious nut of a sister. She used to be a person I got along with. Then she moved to West Virginia.
Her gay daughter once told me that of course she's going to burn in hell. She's a good person who wouldn't hurt a flea.. like literally, she'd rather not hurt bugs or anything else. But according to the way she was raised she's so horrible she'll burn in hell for eternity.
And it's her mom who's allowed her to believe this.
I really think this sort of religion needs to be declared a mental illness.
CanonRay
(14,118 posts)but nothing on this scale...sorry it happened to your sister.
FakeNoose
(32,773 posts)If everyone in your family, and her very oldest friends, agrees to participate. It's not easy for those involved and there's no guarantee that she'll be convinced that she has a problem. I'm very sorry for you and your family. The cult has kidnapped and brainwashed her, and apparently she was willing to let it happen.
Good luck!
lunatica
(53,410 posts)will only attach itself to something else just as bad.
I just let her live her life as she sees fit and I live mine. She needs it for some reason.
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)She doesn't even know her own scripture.
WestMichRad
(1,340 posts)I understand your plight, my sister has put herself in a similar situation. With her, the driving force has been her reborn minister husband, who has repeatedly and publicly made no secret of his disdain for her heathen brother. As in every time our paths have crossed over the past several years. Out of courtesy to my sister, I've remained non-confrontational with him.
If a consequence for being "saved" would be having to spend eternity with that sanctimonious prick, I've made the right choice already.
BobTheSubgenius
(11,571 posts)I knew she was very devout, but a bit taken aback when she professed her unwavering belief in Young Earth. What REALLY surprised me, though, was that she knew both the dimensions and topography of Heaven. It seemed weirdly specific.
Less surprising was her antipathy towards Mexicans.
Another once told me she would immediately and irrevocably ostracize even her son, if he turned out to be gay. It's a dandy way to live, isn't it?
radical noodle
(8,013 posts)in line with fear than with love.
EX500rider
(10,868 posts)A quote from Epicurus:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"
keithbvadu2
(36,923 posts)The newly converted often have to demonize the old ways/others to rationalize their change.
This can be for religion, alcohol, tobacco, weight loss, sex, most any bad habit.
TNLib
(1,819 posts)But they have serious diagnosed mental health disorders and are now elderly. Unfortunately their kids have some of those views as well but seem to be slowly overtime changing their perspective.
trackfan
(3,650 posts)I paraphrase:
Growing up in a small, religious town in Texas, I learned two things.
One: God loves you; and you're going to burn in hell.
Two: Sex is the most awful, filthy thing on the face of the earth; and you should save it for someone you love.
Eternal knee jerk mental acrobatics! It bypasses all logic with admirable speed and adroitness leaving the rest of us eating their dust!
kimbutgar
(21,202 posts)They were before their so called conversion.
yortsed snacilbuper
(7,939 posts)earthshine
(1,642 posts)The source is her own inner doubts about her faith - the space between what she sees and what she wants to believe.
Empathetically, -- Earthshine
Faith is believing what you know ain't so. - Mark Twain
lunatica
(53,410 posts)by blaming me for trying to tell her what to think because she is trying her best not to think it too.
Good point!
earthshine
(1,642 posts)it's indicative of what they most fear, deep down inside. Often, we call it "triggering." Freud called it "resistance."
Ultimately, she's probably afraid there is no God, and no salvation after a few decades of being invested in this kind of thinking.
I forget who, but it has been said by philosophers that there is nothing scarier than "the void" (aka. the vacuum, nothingness). Even hell is better.
It's also basic psych that you can't confront her on her fear. She must figure it out on her own based on ambient evidence.
I have no advice for you other than ... send her love. Feel it as you send it. Live it, knowing it's who YOU are.
Your post hit me. Peace to you.
Vinca
(50,308 posts)Once, when I happened to be visiting, I went to the megachurch with him. What a freaky experience. People speaking in tongues and the whole shebang. The only things missing were the snakes. It was like being amongst hundreds of mentally ill people.
eppur_se_muova
(36,296 posts)TexasBushwhacker
(20,217 posts)He was a drug addict for 25 years. Then he became Born Again and gave up drugs. At first I thought it was great. We weren't raised in a religious household, but if religion helped him stay sober, I was happy for him.
But he never lifted a finger to help care for our mother when she was dying of cancer. He was living with her while she was in remission, but when she was diagnosed with metastisis in her bones, he moved out before she even came back from the hospital. He never even visited until about 2 weeks before she died. Then he spent his time telling her that the only reason he turned to drugs was because she didn't raise us as Christians.
He married his girlfriend without telling his 7 year old daughter or inviting her to the wedding. When he finally told her, she threw a huge tantrum. He took her back to her mother and said he never wanted to see her again. His payment of her child support into a trust fund, because her mother "didn't deserve it" was spotty at best.
When Mama was on her deathbed, we called him on a Wednesday to tell him that her death was imminent and if he wanted to see her before she passed away, he should come NOW. But he didn't come on Thursday. Then he didn't come on Friday because he was "sick". And when we called him on Saturday, he said he would come to see her on Sunday after church. She died in the wee hours Sunday morning, and he was SO upset.
When I was packing up Mama's things, I found an old Bible that my grandmother gave her for her 12th birthday. It was covered in ivory leather and had my mother's name on the cover in gold letters. It was so precious. I'm not a Christian, but since he is, I thought he might like to have it. When I offered it to him in an email, he wrote back and said that he didn't want it and that it would be better for me to READ it. Of course, I read plenty of it years before.
At our father's funeral, we didn't speak. Rick's 15 year old daughter, who he hadn't seen or spoken to in 8 years, came to the funeral with her mother to pay their respects. Of course there was no avoiding her. He shook her hand and told her he had been praying for her all these years. After the funeral, he chewed my other brother out for "inviting" his daughter without asking him first. "I have heart disease! She could have given me a heart attack!"
That's right Rick. It's all about you. It always has been.
But I don't have anything against Christians. Most of my friends and extended family are Chriatians. What I hate are sanctimonious HYPOCRITES.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)She didnt come to see my mother when she got dementia. My mother had pancreatic cancer which took five years to metastasize into all her organs until it finally killed her. She was in home palliative care for a few months before she died. My sister would write letters to my mother telling her what she wanted to inherit and badmouthing me. She also told my mother that it was my fault she couldnt come to see her because I was so selfish that I wanted to keep her, my mother, and all her things for myself.
It was nuts. All because I questioned her God. But the real reason my sister went to all that trouble is because she didnt want to have to take care of my mother. So she made up things to make it look like it was my fault. I wasnt letting her be the good daughter she really yearned to be.
The good thing is that my mother wasnt aware enough to know what was going on. Thats the only good thing about that horrible illness that I can or will ever say. I truly hope a cure is found so no family ever has to go through that ever again.
TexasBushwhacker
(20,217 posts)Rick borrowed tens of thousands of dollars from my mother over the years, never repaying her a cent. When she would ask him about it, he would tell her "take it out of my inheritance". My mother was a divorced, retired school teacher, so you can imagine how big her inheritance was. So she changed her will and split her estate 3 ways, between me, my good brother and Rick's daughter (the one he abandoned). It's no surprise he was livid. He threatened to sue and I told him if he could find a lawyer who would represent him for free to take away HIS DAUGHTER'S inheritance, he should go for it. Of course, he didn't.
LakeArenal
(28,846 posts)It really doesnt matter how hateful, petty or cruel. Because as long as they really believe at the end they just need to say sorry to anyone I hurt, ruined or killed and I repent. Done...eternal life....
(background angels singing). 🌅
pangaia
(24,324 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)I cant wait to die and go to eternal punishment in hell!
Im so looking forward to it!
pangaia
(24,324 posts)For example--
One of the most brilliant creations in the history of western classical music..
Including an example of 5 part invertible counterpoint...!!
panfluteman
(2,067 posts)Once referred to the fundamentalist Christian concept of God as a "cosmic dictator" in his writings. It seems like your sister has found the earthly reflection of her godly ideal of a cosmic dictator in our so-called president.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Cosmic dictator is exactly the right description. A god in a perpetual bad mood.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)people. "Why would God want any creation reviled, hated and mistreated for no other reason than what God created that person as?". Their temple budge and they find a chore that they must rush off to attend.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)just in case their vengeful god strikes you dead or something.