May I acknowledge a DUer

[GaryCnf]

with whom I rarely agree?

I'd like to because Effie posted an OP a few days back that to me at least could not more perfectly explain the difference of opinion among those of us in the black community AND the common thread running through it. First, let me just re-post part of what they said:

While my father came from several generations of college-educated blacks, my mother was the first in her family to attend college. And the only reason she was able to attend the school she attended was the fact that a few years prior, a lawsuit was filed forcing the school to desegregate and federal marshals escorted black students into the college.

Thanks to my mother's education and career, the two sides of my family "caught up" to each other and to whites economically. Both of my parents were successful professionals, who could afford an excellent quality of life for themselves and their children. Yet they had to constantly navigate the systemic racism still operating in this country.

For example, although my father was a World War II veteran, they couldn't get a VA loan to buy a house with no money down, loans that were handed out like candy to white families (thereby enabling them to start building nest eggs and develop generational wealth generations before blacks could even think of doing so). When they finally were able to secure a loan, the bank "redlined" them, requiring them to pay higher interest, and realtors "steered" them into a neighborhood that had been "block-busted" by realtors, provoking "white flight" and gentrification and ghettoization. When they stood their ground and, with the help of lawyers and the new Fair Housing Act, they were able to force their way into a white neighborhood, they had to deal with the hostile stares and worse of their neighbors who were sure "those colored people" would drag down their property values - even though my parents were better educated, had better jobs and made more money than anyone on the block. (If you're not familiar with some of these terms and concepts, I urge you to google "redlining," "blockbusting," and "white flight" to get a better sense and context of what I'm talking about.)

As we got older, my parents had to give my brothers "the talk" in hopes that they wouldn't get shot for driving while black. They had to explain to me why I wasn't invited to the sleepover without coming right out and telling me that my friends' parents were afraid the little black girl would steal something from their house. While our white friends could get away with just about anything and everything, speeding around on Friday and Saturday nights, car full of beer and weed and, if they did get stopped, just got a warning like "You'd better go on home, son, before I have to take you there myself and have a little talk with your folks" from their friendly neighborhood police officer, my sisters and brothers had to make sure we didn't do ANYTHING wrong but were still stopped, threatened, made to lie across the hood of the car or down in the street and humiliated and terrified in countless other ways - all because black kids driving in a late model luxury car in an affluent neighborhood (where we happened to LIVE) must be dangerous criminals and the not-so-friendly neighborhood police officer - the same one - felt it his duty to make sure we didn't step out of line.

Even today, my elderly, distinguished father knows that whenever he attends a black tie event, there's a good chance that, at some point during the evening, he will be asked to fill a drink, bus a table, hail a cab or retrieve a car because - you know, a black man in a tuxedo MUST be the help there to serve them. And my beautiful, elegant, accomplished mother is still regularly assumed to be the maid, because a black woman in a nice home couldn't possibly be the lady of the house.

For those of you who are not black, I want to take a moment to point how exceptional these accomplishments were.

First, to come from several generations of college educated and beyond persons of color (dating all the way back to the mid 1800's) is extraordinary. This is not just because it represents generations of monumental effort to overcome overt racism, but also because the number of our forbearers who were able to do so was infinitesimally small. When John Russwurm graduated from Bowdoin College in 1836, he was only the third AA student to graduate from an American college or university. Even after the Civil War and the requirement that any state taking advantage of the land grant program provide for AA education spurred the creation of HBCUs very few offered degrees in any discipline other than divinity until after the turn of the century. The combined educational accomplishments of the author's father, and the previous generation of the poster's family, placed the author in a category unknown to all but a handful of black Americans.

The author's mother's accomplishments are no less unique. The first time US Marshals were used to escort black students into a college was 1963 and the author states that their mother started college a few years after that. If you know about the history of the integration of formerly all-white institutions of higher learning, you will also know that it didn't occur all at once. It wasn't like James Meredith was escorted the University of Mississippi and the next year black students by the dozens were admitted into formerly all-white universities. It was long and it was painful. While it varied, it is likely that the author's mother would have had no more than a dozen people who looked like her in the entire school. What's more, their mother would not have started college until 1965-66. 20 years after her husband returned from WWII. If she was anywhere near her husband's age, she would have been almost 45. Think about that for a second, starting college at age 45, as a black woman, with almost no one who looks like you sitting in class. Like the author's father, she would have been one in a million. Then, to turn around and raise a family with at least three kids? That is absolutely amazing.

I cannot tell you how moved I was when I read this story. It was particularly moving for me because our fathers must be about the same age. My father was going to join the Army when WWII in '42, a couple of years before it ended, when he was 23, but stayed home to help my grandma. He died in '98, when he was 81. When I read Effie say that her dad, who has to be right about 100 years old by now, still gets mistaken for a bus boy, I have to ask myself how stupid some white people have to be. Even as I write this, I am filled with anger. The people she described were unbelievably accomplished people of color and anyone who can't recognize that needs some help.

But that is kind of the point. Effie's family was special in a way no one in my neighborhood could have imagined anyone being. How many African American parents were among the handful of AA whose ancestors were able to graduate from college before Lincoln had even signed the Emancipation Proclamation. How many were able have John Kennedy's and LBJ's U.S. Marshals help make them among the first hundred or so black people allowed into previously all-white universities during the early 60s? How many could find a lawyer to file a lawsuit so they could take advantage of the Fair Housing Act to buy a house in an all-white suburb back then? (Heck, I had a friend who moved into a already slightly integrated neighborhood in Tallahassee with his white wife in 1995 and they pulled down his mailbox so many times that he had to get a P.O. Box.). And, quite honestly, how many black families had two college educated professional parents who had caught up to white families and their kids were driving late model luxury cars on the late 60s?

For people who have accomplished that much and their children, it makes perfect sense that redlining, the lack of availability of investment capital, how white folks stare at them in stores, who white people vote for etc. are the most important civil rights issues of the day. I can't blame them for that. As Effie basically said, they've worked so hard and still they are seen as busboys and maids. That sucks and it is indeed racist as hell. I can understand the frustration when a white politician says economic equality cures racism because it doesn't and the idea it does is a uniquely white idea.

BUT it is just a fact that a majority of AA experience have not had the astounding level of accomplishment Effie described. Yes, many of us have have achieved, but, in 2009, only 45% of us made more than $35K/year and our median household net worth was less than $5700. Most of us suffer that same degradation Effie described her family suffering AND those brothers and sisters are escorted by federal marshal to federal prisons, NOT universities. Michael Brown had not caught up to white people when he was gunned down like a dog and his family watched as a DA who was supposed to be on our side whitewashed the whole thing and a US Senator who was supposed to be on our side wouldn't call him out. Ricky Rector had not caught up to white people when prison guards cut his arms open so they could find a vein to use to execute him during the middle of what many here still claim was a magnificent change for the Democratic Party. Families living in abject poverty who are cut off after 2 years of benefits will NEVER catch up to whites.

Obviously Effie and others are right when they say money doesn't deter racism (well, money in the amounts any of us are willing to really discuss), not even for AA who have achieved what Effie described. On the other hand, when folks start talking about how the Voting Rights Act, or the Fair Housing Act, or even the Civil Rights acts, those marvels of centrist cooperation, can erase the damage far to many of our supposed allies have signed onto, they are no more right than the white politician they have singled out as whipping boy.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Thank you for your thoughtful, intelligent and thorough post.

You have laid it out so accurately and well that anyone with half a brain can grasp what's going on.

I did not know some of these facts, but I am horrified at them being true. As a white woman from generations of successful, hard-working families, I have never experienced any of the situations you mention in your post. How can we call ourselves a free people if so many citizens are discriminated against in any way?

I really appreciate what you've said. Thank you, again.

[EffieBlack]

13. You might want to read it a little more carefully

It's not what it appears to be.

[Gothmog]

31. I agree

[montana_hazeleyes]

40. I saw that also as I read,

I agree it isn't what it appears to be at all!

[yardwork]

65. Agreed.

[GentryDixon]

106. I raised my spidey senses.

[sheshe2]

115. Read it through twice.

I agree with you Effie...subtle, but it is there.

[Eliot Rosewater]

150. Clearly...

[WhiteTara]

163. you mean it is still

condescending in a superior white person way?

All this makes me want to fall at the feet of every black person I meet and beg forgiveness.

Thank you for your dignity.

[brush]

176. I'm getting that the writer of this OP is AA. I'm still try to understand the motivation.

We all have different histories but if you're a POC you have experienced racism here.

You have to work around the obstacles.

[NastyRiffraff]

181. Agreed

It starts out fine, then slowly and subtly descends.

[Tarheel_Dem]

187. Exactly. n/t

[ecstatic]

209. I apologize for reccing before fully absorbing

the intent. I was exhausted and my snark and ulterior motive meter was off. That was a clever BS post. Wow!

My intention was to agree with the subject line "acknowledge a DUer," because I feel you've been adding a valuable & much needed perspective to DU. Many moons ago I used to try to do the same thing right here on DU, but I made a conscious decision--about 9 years ago--that I was done putting myself out there and challenging other DUers on race-related issues. However, it's not a waste of time. Even the people who argue back are slowly learning and becoming more aware.

[irisblue]

2. Effie Black

👏👏👏👏👏

[NRaleighLiberal]

4. best post I've read on DU in some time - both Effie's part, and your response. Thank you (both!)

[radical noodle]

142. Actually, it is not... read it again

[Gothmog]

145. You should re-read this post- it is an attack on a DU poster

[Eliot Rosewater]

151. Of course it is

[LexVegas]

5. ....

[Hekate]

14. Well aren't you special, LexVegas

[LexVegas]

19. Effie is original and sincere.

[Hekate]

206. I ended up being quite confused by both of them and dropped out of the thread

Basically came back to say I was sorry for having entered the thread at all

[stevenleser]

89. Unfortunately the OP was a hit piece in Effie. nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

153. Yes it was...

[Hekate]

207. As I said to Lex, I ended up being quite confused by both of them and dropped out of the thread...

...sorry I had gotten involved.

I took the OP at face value, apparently mistakenly. I thought the OP was elucidating something about Effie that I had missed by glossing over her very long posts.

I don't have the energy to get involved in internecine warfare, as my temper at DU has been on a hair-trigger for some months now. I try not to snap at anybody, but usually just growl and move on. As I am doing now. Just blame it on Trump.

[Cha]

17. You're right, Lex.. Effie takes excpetion to

the OP..

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10472157

[LexVegas]

21. Many of us know....

[Cha]

24. Smart you!

Ya did!

[Cha]

16. Aloha, mcar..

Effie Black doesn't agree with the OP and I can see why

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10472157

[3catwoman3]

7. Do you think we will ever get to...

...the place of enlightenment where the only response we have to give when asked about race is "human?" I often fear not.

Of all the things I may have worried about for my sons, now 25 and 28, as a Caucasian mom, I never had to worry about anyone taking an instant dislike to them, or wanting to shoot them, because of the color of their skin. I take no pride in the color of my skin, and I am well aware that the accident of my birth has made my life easier.

Powerful and poignant words in your post, GaryCnf, and in Effie's. Thank you for them.

[judesedit]

102. Anymore, I am ashamed to be white and associated in any way with the

Racist, bigotted, ignorant, violent, gun-humping red necks who think they are supreme. Excuse me. Who the hell ever gave them the idea they were better than anyone else because rhey happened to be born with white or light skin? This is truly nonsense. And any who believe that bullshit should be called out on their total and complete ignorance. It's like they have a brick wall stopping the facts from entering their brains.

Please check out "The Dumbing Down of America". It is a real government program set forth around the 40's. It has had a detrimental effect on how and what is taught in this country and how those who don't do exactly what's expected of them are set up to fail. It is partly to blame for the ignorance of many. Very sad, but true.

[Caliman73]

133. You should not be ashamed to be White. That has never been the point.

To acknowledge that we have privileges that were passed on to us by mere fact of the color of our skin, our gender, our place of birth, the functioning of our limbs, etc... AND to do something to try to reverse the automatic assumptions based on those conditions of our being; that is the point the efforts of people like Effie and others who discuss privilege and the systemic bias inherent in the US.

I am a person of color and have been discriminated against and experienced bigotry as a result of my status. I know what it feels like. However, I am also a male, a natural born US citizen, was raised in a Christian faith tradition, am relatively able bodied, am educated, and was raised in the middle class. I have privileges afforded to me by my mere upbringing and the efforts of my family. I have used those privileges to advance myself but I make a conscious effort not to judge people as "lazy" or "not good enough" because I do not know what obstacles they have had to overcome just to be where they are. I also try to help people as best I can, to overcome obstacles.

I am not ashamed of my privileges. There is nothing I can do about them but to use them to help myself and my family. Like I said, what I and others need to always be aware of is never to assume that there is an equal playing field and you have gotten to where you are solely through your efforts so that you can look down on people who are not in the same situation as you are.

[EffieBlack]

140. Beautifully said!

Like you, I’ve faced and have had to overcome enormous individual and systemic discrimination. But, at the same time, by luck of birth, I’ve also had the advantage of a degree of privilege that few people have had - and none of which I earned. I KNOW that, compared to many others, I was born on third base and have always been very careful to make sure I don’t start thinking I hit a triple.

In fact, earlier in my life and career, I was so mindful of the privilege that I assumed I was immune from racial discrimination - that I had “overcome” and didn’t really have the right to complain about an uneven playing field.

And then the real world hit me in the face and it was, to say the least, a real and painful riude awakening.

[EffieBlack]

139. Caliman is right. You should never be ashamed of who you are

The important thing is to recognize and acknowledge the privilege - not to feel guilty or apologize for it since you didn’t cause it or ask for it - but to try to make sure that others aren’t disadvantaged by it. And whenever possible, use it to help other people who don’t have it.

It sounds like you’re already doing that. Brava!

[Eliot Rosewater]

165. Serves no purpose for us white folk to shame ourselves I suppose

but we sure as hell need to call out those people who consistently exercise racism and hate as their normal daily behavour.

Those folks seem to have one thing in common, so it is hard for me as a white person NOT to be very uncomfortable in my skin. Because universally this issue exists.

[Moral Compass]

8. Incredible post

[stevenleser]

93. Only if you think thinly veiled hit pieces on other DUers are incredible nt

[dalton99a]

10. Kick

[Cha]

18. Hi dalton.. Aloha

Just wanted you to be aware of this.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10472157

[dalton99a]

55. Hi there, Cha

And thank you!

[BobTheSubgenius]

11. Very nicely done.

Made all the more remarkable in light of your opening sentence.

[EffieBlack]

12. Interesting post

Last edited Tue Apr 10, 2018, 01:19 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm impressed that you took so much time to consider my post and went to the effort to analyze my family's timelines and resumes. But some of your assumptions are way off, so let me enlighten you.

First, my father is not 100. He's 92. My mother is in her 70s and attended college in her late teens and early 20s, not when she was 45.

And yes, several of my ancestors did indeed attend college in the mid-1800s. For example, my great-great-grandfather graduated from Wiberforce University which you probably know was founded in the 1850s. I don't feel the need to list a resume for my other relatives, so let's just take my word for it.

When you shifted from your analysis of my family's story into your subtle challenge of my main point, you suddenly became very vague, perhaps because you didn't have the courage to challenge me directly. For instance, in addition to the veiled snark that preceded it, you failed to identify which "U.S. Senator was supposed to be on our side" or which "white politician" you believe "our supposed allies" have singled out as a "whipping boy," but I'm pretty sure to whom you were referring - I just don't know why you think they are relevant to my OP.

I'm not sure why you decided to write such a petty OP that implies that I'm a liar and mocks my family story because YOU don't believe it. Perhaps you knew better than to come at me head on and so you decided to try being disingenuous and clever - and you did manage to fool several people into thinking you were actually being magnanimous and empathetic. But I see right through you and now just think you're silly, so I don't think you accomplished whatever your goal was.

FYI, your post is clearly a violation of DU rules, but I haven't alerted on it and hope no one else does because I think it's instructive for the folks on this board to see your true colors.

[Cha]

15. Thank you, Effie.. I read the whole thing

and I agree..

[LexVegas]

22. I dont think many have read the whole thing. nt

[Cha]

26. Glad I did..

[George II]

110. To be honest I only had to read a few sentences to see where he was going.

[LexVegas]

111. It's really disgusting. nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

158. I wish we could say what it really is, but we dont dare.

[LexVegas]

159. ...

[LexVegas]

20. We arent fooled. This OP is a thinly veiled attack.

[radical noodle]

32. Not thinly veiled enough

It's insulting to Effie and mean-spirited. What a callous response to the beautiful posts that Effie made previously.

[EffieBlack]

39. Thanks for the support

I have a thick skin and it's good to know people are paying attention. And it's amusing to see them reveal things about themselves that they may not even realize I can see.

True colors, indeed, in more than one sense of the words.

[radical noodle]

46. Your reply to the OP was classy

[Eliot Rosewater]

160. We know EXACTLY what is going on here. I just wish to FUCK we didnt have to

put up with it.

[sheshe2]

118. Agree 100%, radical noodle.

[emulatorloo]

27. Well said.

I support you unconditionally and found the OP very problematic.

[EffieBlack]

28. Thanks!

[Gothmog]

29. Good response to the OP

The OP is piece of dreck

[lunamagica]

34. It is really interesting, Effie. It shows how you live rent-free in some people's heads

and how much your posts affect them. You must really hit a nerve.

And when someone can't argue your points, they can't help but to make it personal.

Kind of flattering, in a twisted way.

[EffieBlack]

35. Lol - you're right

The time to worry is when they STOP paying attention to what you're saying, right?

[betsuni]

38. The OP is petty.

I wonder what the purpose of it is. People keep saying no no no it's not unsubstantiated bashing or personal attack for no reason, just a disagreement over policy. Well. True colors.

[dalton99a]

58. +1

Thanks, Effie!

[GaryCnf]

61. Whether 100 or 92

Your father's accomplishments both deserve and have my respect, as do your mother's and the rest of your family's. A year here or there doesn't change that for me or most people.

I am sorry that whatever differences we have has prevented you from seeing the unity that many others have seen.

[R B Garr]

190. More LOL! I love the part where you compliment yourself.

How could anyone miss your sincerity. Unity is definitely your bag.

[yardwork]

63. I noticed the same thing.

[ehrnst]

75. Hear hear! (nt)

[Eliot Rosewater]

161. Hey, I can do better that THAT

hear hear HEAR

We have to laugh, otherwise I will get very very angry

[brer cat]

78. You have written some outstanding OPs

that are thought-provoking and capable of elevating the conversation here to a much needed new level. Issues and values that form our bedrock and how we prioritize our goals are what differentiates us from other parties. That should be the discussion, and it's distressing to see someone use your efforts, especially your family history, to try and score some cheap political points.

[stevenleser]

83. Ive stopped being surprised at the gaslighting and other dishonest tactics from a certain segment

of folks.

The OP’s series of very thinly veiled insults and backhanded compliments is eerily reminiscent of Sanders’s comments praising “candidate” Obama on MLK day.

Some folks really think they are more clever than they are.

[redgreenandblue]

127. ...

An African American has an opinion other than yours

[stevenleser]

137. Nope, they don't, there is no opinion here. It's a thinly veiled hit piece on another DUer. nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

162. It is, and we have NO idea who is who here as to certain things, do we.

We know what people claim they are, and most of us do indeed trust each other.

But we cant trust everyone, can we.

Now I know who YOU are because you are kinda famous, and VERY good at your job I might say

[stevenleser]

193. And that has been no help really.

Despite what my obvious appearance would suggest, when I have explained my ancestry it has been challenged as well. By the same group that seems to behind a lot of the nonsense.

[ehrnst]

91. Your post displays far more class, intellect and dignity than the OP, Effie.

[JustAnotherGen]

104. Thank you for addressing this Effie

I read your post that is referenced - and had a different take away than the author of this OP. Our ancestors probably crossed paths. And I'll leave it at that.

[sheshe2]

117. Great response, Effie.

[Tom Rinaldo]

135. It took me a while to finally read through all this.

You handle this odd "tribute" well. The portions quoted directly from you of course are an excellent read. But without even having to guess at the degree of sincerity with which the OP you are responding to was written, clearly it is not appropriate to have the history of your own family (inaccurately portrayed) and your own words woven into a different narrative - whether or not praise of you and your family was originally intended. FWIW I think you have very good cause to believe the OP is disingenuous. Your life should not be used as fodder for anyone else's agenda, even were praise intended, which at minimum is extremely suspect. I would feel outraged if this were done to me. I feel outraged that this was done to you.

[lunatica]

138. Thank you Effie

The Op fooled me, though not completely until I read your response. It all fell into place then.

I don’t get the reason for his OP though. What did he hope to accomplish with it? Those of us who were fooled thought it was praising you.

Whatever point he may have tried to make failed. You can see that by the responses.

[R B Garr]

154. oooh, excellent response! I saw those true colors from

the OP a long time ago. Everyone must take a back seat because of that one picture of a certain Senator from 40 years ago. Thanks for your valuable perspectives, EB. Always!

edit, and I just re-read the OP’s last paragraph—all of history re-explained in One Man’s world view of income inequality, so tiresome.

[Eliot Rosewater]

156. Sadly we will have this to reflect on for some time...personally I am so fucking angry

i cant say anymore

[brush]

180. I still don't get the motivation behind this OP. AAs and other POCs have all experienced...

discrimination here no matter what our background or family history.

How successfully one negotiates around the obstacles thrown in one's path determines how well you do in sometimes outright hostile environments.

Perhaps there's a green-eyed monster operating, which is unfortunate and non-productive.

[GaryCnf]

188. The point was never to suggest that any AA or other POC

has not experienced racism or to belittle that experience or even to engage in some kind of contest about whether A or B has suffered more. We all have had to deal with it and all of it damages us in ways others can't know unless they've been there.

Some of us have beat it down. (Now speaking about myself because I see the danger in bringing other people's experiences into it) I have what I could never have dreamed of as a little child. My children grew up never once worrying about any of the things I worried about every minute when I was a kid. If they share the anger I had growing up, that's on me for not letting it go BUT they show no signs, good students, good kids, starting their own legacy. They live in a 10% world, one where most of their friends are white, one where their dreams are just like the white person's standing next to them. If I envy them, though, and I hope I don't, it's not because I think they're free. They put up with constant bullshit. They just have more tools to fight back (although my son still drives 55 in 55 zones).

I never left Sunnyside, not in my head anyway, and not professionally. Not a day goes by when I don't at least talk on the phone with some kid no older than my own with two or three felony convictions whose until recently was looking at 40 years in prison under the guidelines and that's if they're lucky. Other days it's a young man on death row, or more often his mother, or his aunt, or his grandma. Not one of them ever had a chance in this world. I am their voice.

I may be just one of many strings connecting them, but they are from two worlds and though they may both be black worlds, they are different as night and day.

What I've seen since coming here, is a lot of talk about who has offended people of color or, more disturbing to me, who is the true friend of people of color and a lot (not all) of it coming from white people. Even before this OP, if I dared suggest that the people in that second world existed and weren't getting anything from us, I was getting hit with the same "You sound like all those other white people that think we're all poor" which, just as it has here, devolves in to flat out ****** accusations that I must not be black because I insist that we/they acknowledge that a world I see at a real basic level exists and that it is getting left behind.

It's all good though. I'm out of here.

God Bless

[brush]

196. Still don't get it. We all live, have lived, or have family members in one or the other worlds you..

worlds you speak and because of that we negotiate in both regularly.

It's not news to us as progressive AAs and POCs so I still don't understand what beef you have.

[GaryCnf]

199. Let me start here.

I don't have a beef with any segment of our community. I live in one. I work and grew up in another. I'm not sure I totally agree that we all cross between both, but I think it's common enough that it's a fair point.

I'm not saying that my well off adult friends are oblivious to, or dont care, about the people I grew up with or represent now. What I am saying is that their day to day lives are different. Not better, not worse, but not the same. But because of those differences, their priorities are also different.

My beef is right here. Here you can't even get people to acknowledge the spectrum of outlooks in our community. This is partly because doing that vitiates the argument that "our side," whichever it is, is more loved by the black community than "their side." Unless we are a monolith, that narrative fails.

[brush]

201. Couldn't disagree more. We are not a monolith. Progressives understand that as well as anyone...

Last edited Wed Apr 11, 2018, 12:24 AM - Edit history (2)

thus their (our) empathy and activism in and for both worlds.

If the empathy and activism isn't there you won't find a progressive.

And those progressive AAs and POCs get haircuts and their hair done in the hood and the barrio, go to soul food and Mexican restaurants, and some even go to churches in the neighborhood so we aren't out of touch with where we came from—and quite frankly, and you should know this, true progressives want to maintain that contact.

[GaryCnf]

204. I may disagree with

Your assessment of true progressives because it has been skewed to include, or even be exemplified by, at least here, people who traded us for white votes, but it means something to me hear anyone say what you just did. It's never been about accusing someone of making up their history. It's just about people admitting that we have different ones.

Peace

[BumRushDaShow]

205. Here is the issue

Your assessment of true progressives because it has been skewed to include, or even be exemplified by, at least here, people who traded us for white votes, but it means something to me hear anyone say what you just did. It's never been about accusing someone of making up their history. It's just about people admitting that we have different ones.

brush is correct about "navigating between worlds" because most of this do this. Why? Because our often large and far-flung families dwell in different worlds. I.e., those who have "succeeded" (in quotes), those who are struggling but surviving, and those who may be tied up in the criminal justice system and "lost". And really, I expect this situation is the same universally (perhaps not to as great a degree but it exists). Yet blood is thicker than water and most (not all) try to (or often have to) touch base with all of these levels. And our children are taught to do that careful navigation to include also shifting to deal with the majority population.

Frantz Fanon wrote several books detailing the phenomena that we have to deal with including this (one of the books in my household as I was growing up) -



The type of unique but complex existence that we have here in the U.S. cannot be addressed by simplistic solutions that are promoted to "float all boats" when "all boats" are not identical or even close to being comparable.

And as a note, not all that is "white" is evil. The reason that we are not still enslaved today, given our minority status in terms of population, was because there were those with a conscience who believed in humanity and sacrificed on behalf of humanity.

[GaryCnf]

208. This is a tremendous post. N/T

Last edited Wed Apr 11, 2018, 10:18 PM - Edit history (2)

[Empowerer]

198. Promise?

Bye, Felicia.

[xmas74]

184. It felt off immediately.

I thought it was a hit piece, then I thought I was too suspicious.

I'm sorry that this OP was written.

[lunamagica]

23. Someone is coming off as petty, insincere and dishonest in this OP

and it isn't Effie.

[LexVegas]

25. I cannot believe this is not obvious to people. nt

[lunamagica]

33. IKR? The intent is crystal clear

[betsuni]

42. Benefit of the doubt is wasted on the wrong people.

[JI7]

45. most people probably didn't read the whole thing

[Eliot Rosewater]

173. Everyone now has had the time to read it all, so continued recs of the OP here tells us

stuff

[Gothmog]

30. Water is also wet

[emulatorloo]

36. You seem like a good person but apparently you will say anything to protect a certain politician

from legitimate criticism. I am going to advise you as I have advised others. Develop a thicker skin and understand that this certain politician you are so overprotective of is out of free passes.

He will be vetted just as every candidate who runs in the 2020 primary will be vetted.

There are questions that will need to be answered if he decides to pursue a 2020 run. They won’t just be coming from DU’ers.

He will be vetted by the press, he will be vetted by the primary candidates who run against him.

He will have to answer difficult questions about his hot takes about the “economic anxiety” of Trump voters. As you know, the Democrat won voters who were most concerned about the economy. While voters most concerned about “immigration” and “terrorism” voted for Trump.

He will have to answer to his inability to produce concrete ways to implement his policy goals.

He will have to answer to his dismissal of the importance of civil rights which he falsely labels “identity politics.”

He will have to answer to his gaffes and other stupid shit he says, like blaming HRC for not stopping Russian Bots and his constantly shifting explainations of when he knew Putin’s crowd was promoting him.

He will need to explain his vote against the Magnitsky Act and Russian Sanctions in a more coherent way than “because reasons”

He will need to explain his sketchy voting record on gun control without dog whistles of
“Vermont vs Chicago.”

He will have to explain why Our Revolution was set up in such a way that there is zero transparency about the donors.

He will need to explain the poor track record of Our Revolutions endorsements.

He will need to explain why Nina Turner wants to endorse Republicans, and why Jeff Weaver dismissed Mueller’s indictment of Russian trolls.

He will need to explain why he used our donations to pay Levi, Jane, and Carolina’s salaries to work on his 2016 campaign.

He will need to explain how much money in kickbacks Jane made through her media buying company.

He will need to explain his relationship to Old Towne Media.

He will need to release his tax returns.

He will need to explain why he did not denounce the support he received in 2026 from Karl Rove’s superpac, American Crossroads.

I have only scratched the surface.

In my humble opinion it is better for you to start coming up with reasonable answers to those questions, rather than smearing Effie and her family.

Of course your mileage may vary.

[EffieBlack]

41. Damn!

[Cha]

48. I know, right!

[betsuni]

43. BOOM!

[RandySF]

44. MaY I add

His vote to shield firearms manufacturers from liability.

[dalton99a]

56. +1

[Cha]

49. Outstanding, emulatorloo!

Excellent! Thank you so much!

I'll add an , too!

[lunamagica]

51. Excellent!

Let's not forget his vote against the Amber Alert, and against immigration reform.

[yardwork]

68. Posts like the OP don't reflect well on the candidates they appear to be supporting.

[betsuni]

70. Very true.

[ehrnst]

84. +1000 (nt)

[George II]

109. Most importantly, he will be vetted by the voters as they've done already. BTW...

...you have a typo - I think you mean 2016 with respect to Rove's superpac.

[GulfCoast66]

121. Thats going to leave a mark...

[Eliot Rosewater]

174. Damn is right!

The "free passes" though might not be exhausted. There is a large group of young folks who mean well, they really do, who have only heard from one person.

They dont really have a ton of info about the history of how liberal accomplishments actually happen as in baby steps, small victories and tons of compromise.

Many of them believe that voting in ONE person will reverse all that, it wont of course.

[Tarheel_Dem]

189. THIS! RIGHT! HERE!

[stevenleser]

194. And of course, crickets in response to this well thought out post. nt

[leftstreet]

37. DURec

[RandySF]

47. Isn't there a rule against personal attacks?

[mr_lebowski]

50. Not a very cool way to go about making this point, bruh (nt)

[betsuni]

52. When is your biography of Effie coming out? What's the title?

"All About Effie"? "Effie Black EXPOSED!"? Can't wait for the movie version!

[Cha]

57. "I know

Effie Black and her history better than she knows herself"

[dalton99a]

59. "And nobody has more respect for EffieBlack than I do"

"Believe me"

[Cha]

60. smh..

Dead on, dalton

[George II]

112. Subtitled "BUT...."

[Eliot Rosewater]

167. CLASSIC

[Hassin Bin Sober]

53. DU Rec!!!!!!

[still_one]

54. A rose by any other name is the false equivalency that some would like to paint, in order to

convince others that there really is no difference between one political party verses another, while the legislation that brought about the Voting Rights Act, the Fair Housing Act, the Civil Rights Act, the fight for worker's rights, women's rights, the environment, Supreme Court Justices such as Thurgood Marshall or Ruth Bader Ginsberg, are slowing being undone as a result of the actions of predominately one political party verses the other, perhaps with some advertent or inadvertent contribution from those who avoid being identified with either party.

[EffieBlack]

79. Not a single Democrat or progressive or liberal or Socialist I know would ever mock and dismiss

the Civi Rights Act or Voting Rights Act as “marvels of centrist cooperation.”

And I know very few, if any African Americans or other minorities who would find my family’s history all that unusual - certainly not so odd as to provoke a sneering attempted rebuttal - since it is actually quite common and if our own family doesn’t share some facets of it most of us know or know of some who do. The only people I’ve ever encountered who expressed such amazement and skepticism that free blacks achieved higher education before the Civil War were people who’d spent their lives with little exposure to or interactions with anyone of color. In fact, dropping snippets of some of my family anecdotes is one of my favorite parlor tricks when hanging out with patronizing but clueless white people, who usually express much the same amazement as we've witnessed here.

As I said, true colors coming through.

[still_one]

119. Bravo!!! Well said

[Eliot Rosewater]

168. Interesting how you have to dance so much, we all do, when what we should be

comfortable in doing is saying what this shit really is.

[JNelson6563]

62. I think passive aggressive are the most cowardly among us.

This sort of thing causes me to remain convinced of that belief.

[yardwork]

64. I will remember this post.

[NCTraveler]

67. +1 nt

[NCTraveler]

66. Might you try speaking for yourself...

And if not I think you should do a little better representing the person you are talking about views. This could have been done, including making your point, without questionable grand assumptions.

Effie is working to start a more grand conversation about race. Yours is about Effie with injections of non-unique racial commentary.

Your thoughts can stand on their own merits without using Effie as a prop.

Hope you are ready to do some edits. The biograph you promote of your subject matter, Effie(not race), is laced with errors. Funny enough that each error seems to be in an attempt to bolster your secondary point.

[yardwork]

69. It occurred to me that the OP proves Effie's point.

The effort to undermine black accomplishments by sarcastically observing what an amazing great accomplishment it is - why Effie's mother must have been 45 when she went to college and THEN she started a large family!!!! - reminds me of certain smirking and mocking I've personally observed.

[GaryCnf]

71. As I explained to Effie

My assumptions may be incorrect in terms of the number of years but they ultimately do not exaggerate how much more her family has achieved than many people in our community.

The point of my OP, which I stated right up front, was that those achievements give her a perspective that I did not appreciate until I read her post. I can't agree with it because that wasn't my experience and I was hoping to explain why for many of us racial justice, much more so racial equality, is still a far off dream.

[phylny]

72. And here I thought I was clicking on a something nice in this time of backbiting and snark.

I was wrong.

[ehrnst]

74. Effie needs whitesplaining? Really? (nt)

[GaryCnf]

76. I would say not.

But then again, neither do I.

But thanks for trying.

[TCJ70]

77. Oh, man...I cant wait for the response you get to this...

...lol

74. Effie needs whitesplaining? Really? (nt)

[LexVegas]

82. That's what this is.

[Eliot Rosewater]

169. Did I happen to mention I am a black female lesbian astronaut?

[ehrnst]

170. ####

[tonedevil]

182. No you have not...

you are equally as funny as the folks who tell us they identify as an attack helicopter.

[BumRushDaShow]

80. I saw this when it was first posted

and refrained from commenting. Mainly because there were things in it that raised red flags and then of course current events intervened that required my attention.

But be that as it may, there are a number of us here who have similar family histories as Effie and thanks to the availability of the internet and a good search engine, one can often gather further details of one's ancestors right online (which I have been doing on and off for years).

But a couple things immediately stood out to me including this (in bold) -

The author's mother's accomplishments are no less unique. The first time US Marshals were used to escort black students into a college was 1963 and the author states that their mother started college a few years after that. If you know about the history of the integration of formerly all-white institutions of higher learning, you will also know that it didn't occur all at once. It wasn't like James Meredith was escorted the University of Mississippi and the next year black students by the dozens were admitted into formerly all-white universities. It was long and it was painful. While it varied, it is likely that the author's mother would have had no more than a dozen people who looked like her in the entire school. What's more, their mother would not have started college until 1965-66. 20 years after her husband returned from WWII. If she was anywhere near her husband's age, she would have been almost 45. Think about that for a second, starting college at age 45, as a black woman, with almost no one who looks like you sitting in class. Like the author's father, she would have been one in a million. Then, to turn around and raise a family with at least three kids? That is absolutely amazing.

First be aware that the "integration" and "marshals" were mainly reserved for segregated southern schools and not northern/western ones. My mother graduated from Temple University in 1954, a school that was and continues to be predominately white. As it was, her high school (which was also my alma mater) had only 2 blacks per class (year/term). Temple, as an urban school, is more diverse nowadays as are many similar schools, but there were no southern-style "all white" segregation laws here in Philly, although restrictive "quotas" at these white schools, were rampant. What WAS an issue was trying to teach at a school here in Philly at the secondary level, and it took Brown v Board to change that. I.e., my mother and her friends had degrees in the '50s in secondary education, yet were not permitted to teach in the high schools in Philly, despite being educationally qualified and certified to do so. So they were either forced to change careers (as my mother did) or put up and shut up and teach at the elementary level until after Brown v. Board... And at that point, they had to decide whether to fight that fight to move up to sec ed positions (some did) or just stay were they were (as some did).

And as it is, I have posted before that when I was at UMASS, I was one of only 400 black students on a campus (in Amherst) of 25,000 undergrad/grad students. So 9 out of 10 times, I was usually the only black in my class. It never really bothered me as I grew up in a rare (unusual/unique) integrated neighborhood in the city. Basically, despite our slight population increases of late, blacks are still only 12% - 13% of the U.S. population and when you leave the urban/rim-suburban microcosm, that becomes obvious.

And then this -

I cannot tell you how moved I was when I read this story. It was particularly moving for me because our fathers must be about the same age. My father was going to join the Army when WWII in '42, a couple of years before it ended, when he was 23, but stayed home to help my grandma. He died in '98, when he was 81. When I read Effie say that her dad, who has to be right about 100 years old by now, still gets mistaken for a bus boy, I have to ask myself how stupid some white people have to be. Even as I write this, I am filled with anger. The people she described were unbelievably accomplished people of color and anyone who can't recognize that needs some help.

Now I expect there may have been some "exceptions to the rule" here, but I do know that in 1943, while in college at Lincoln University, my father was DRAFTED into WW2 in the army. Pulled right out and sent to the Pacific theater. There was no choice to "stay home" to help a relative. And college certainly didn't qualify as an exemption, which was something that came as part of the reform of the selective service by the time of the Vietnam War (where college enrollment became a means to defer, and was used by almost all of our favorite RW fakers who didn't try to 4F it). What was also missing here was that those black men who did end up in WW2, were in segregated units.

Similarly, his father (my grandfather) was also drafted into WWI while in college. Both were "only sons".

Another red flag is this -

Even after the Civil War and the requirement that any state taking advantage of the land grant program provide for AA education spurred the creation of HBCUs very few offered degrees in any discipline other than divinity until after the turn of the century.

Um no. The two oldest, which are located here in PA in suburban Philadelphia - African Institute 1837 (and after various name changes now Cheney University as of 1983) & Ashmun Institute 1854 (renamed to Lincoln University in 1866), taught all the subjects that one saw taught in the white colleges/"normal schools".... in the mid-1800s, well before "the turn of the century". My great-grandfather and his future wife (my great-grandmother) graduated from Atlanta University (now part of the Clark-Atlanta U system) in the mid-1880s and with B.A. degrees in teaching subjects (no not in "divinity" ).

And this -

BUT it is just a fact that a majority of AA experience have not had the astounding level of accomplishment Effie described. Yes, many of us have have achieved, but, in 2009, only 45% of us made more than $35K/year and our median household net worth was less than $5700. Most of us suffer that same degradation Effie described her family suffering AND those brothers and sisters are escorted by federal marshal to federal prisons, NOT universities. Michael Brown had not caught up to white people when he was gunned down like a dog and his family watched as a DA who was supposed to be on our side whitewashed the whole thing and a US Senator who was supposed to be on our side wouldn't call him out. Ricky Rector had not caught up to white people when prison guards cut his arms open so they could find a vein to use to execute him during the middle of what many here still claim was a magnificent change for the Democratic Party. Families living in abject poverty who are cut off after 2 years of benefits will NEVER catch up to whites.

not unexpectantly slides in a breathtaking Bill Clinton hit piece.

And finally (because the entire post is really a farce) -

Obviously Effie and others are right when they say money doesn't deter racism (well, money in the amounts any of us are willing to really discuss), not even for AA who have achieved what Effie described. On the other hand, when folks start talking about how the Voting Rights Act, or the Fair Housing Act, or even the Civil Rights acts, those marvels of centrist cooperation, can erase the damage far to many of our supposed allies have signed onto, they are no more right than the white politician they have singled out as whipping boy.

What does the bolded mean exactly? And of course the back-handed "marvels of centrist cooperation" is just obvious code talk.

[LexVegas]

81. The entire thing is a personal attack on Effie. nt

[BumRushDaShow]

86. Yes, I saw her responses last night

[ehrnst]

85. Excellent analysis. (nt)

[stevenleser]

87. Yep a thinly veiled hit piece at Effie. The OP thinks themselves too clever by a lot.

I’m surprised this fooled anyone.

[LexVegas]

88. I don't think people have actually read this hit piece. nt

[sheshe2]

120. I read it through twice.

Sad.

[LexVegas]

123. Disgusting is what it is. nt

[EffieBlack]

90. Excellent - and every word true. Thanks:

As I wrote in another post, these are things that most African Americans, regardless their economic status, are well aware of.

[BumRushDaShow]

113. What is sad is that as of this post time, it still has 84 recs

so I suppose it was -

[stevenleser]

143. There are two groups of "reccers"

Group 1 are the folks who didn't do more than a cursory scan, thought it was as advertised (something meant to praise Effie) and recced it. I suspect most reccers fall into this category.

Group 2 are the folks who read it, understand it and like that it is an attack on Effie.

[LexVegas]

144. Spot on. nt

[BumRushDaShow]

146. Agree

and it's up to 91 now (although I think it hit 94 and earlier and dropped back down).

It was a "mission accomplished".

My mom was a history/polisci major (education and teaching minor) and used to talk about "rhetoric" and "propaganda", which were part of her curricula in college (I was majoring in a science so my college experience was to jam in the required social science and humanities courses and then spend hours upon hours upon hours in lab ). And those two concepts were foreign to a young me given that looking at past examples of it in history, resulted in sorely dated writing styles in articles and other missives. But now that it is front and center, and "everywhere" thanks to the internet, "modern" rhetoric and propaganda is scary as hell. And it's not the obvious loon CT crazy stuff.

[stevenleser]

147. It's very emblematic of the way JPR types discourse. Very dishonest, rife with logical fallacies and

deception.

That's what you always find in the arguments they make for their candidates. They are just a subset of that candidates supporters but they are an extremely poisonous lot.

[BumRushDaShow]

149. Yup.

And I recognize some of them posting in the thread too (and probably some of their socks).

[Eliot Rosewater]

171. Yup. But that is only on JPR, right? sigh

[stevenleser]

195. Unfortunately not. :-(

[WhiskeyGrinder]

94. Very well said.

[GaryCnf]

97. Even though this will be incomplete

I wanted to respond quickly so as to stop your "well the internet has lots of information" personal attack.

First, Effie stated that her mother attended a school where US Marshals had to intervene. What was going on elsewhere in the country doesn't "tell" anything/

Second, unless you are seriously claiming that all black males were drafted into service during WWII, your next point is stupid and insulting. "Tell" fail Number 2

Third, you are confusing subjects taught with degrees conferred AND nothing you or I said detracts from the accomplishments of Effie's family or of the reality of the benefits they (righteously) imparted.

Fourth, as I have stated before, Sanders style socialism is a farce when it comes to racial justice. Marxism, as a key component of the black liberation movement when I grew up, is a tool to repay $60 trillion and, as I said, no one is talking about that.

Finally, I'm sorry you choose idolatry over reality.

[EffieBlack]

100. You really should just let it go.

Trust me.

[GaryCnf]

103. To you

I will say I am sorry. Your family is an inspiration.

Clearly that part got lost when I went into other areas.

Take care.

[BumRushDaShow]

107. And as a response

I wanted to respond quickly so as to stop your "well the internet has lots of information" personal attack.

Interesting that you completely internalized the "internet search" remark that I made and boomeranged it onto yourself... Despite the fact that what I was actually referencing was to myself, just this morning, finding and saving PDFs of pages from the General Catalogue of Atlanta University, Atlanta, Georgia: 1867-1918, where I realized that not only did they list my great-grandparents, but my grandfather AND his older sisters (which I had missed the first time I found this about a year ago). This book lists students/graduates from the indicated era and even included birth dates, marriage dates, and occupations (not unlike my alma mater's alumni publications).

First, Effie stated that her mother attended a school where US Marshals had to intervene. What was going on elsewhere in the country doesn't "tell" anything/

You trivialize. My mother sat on a trolley or subway here in Philly in 1944 where National Guard were on the public transit because the transit system went on strike when they refused to allow black drivers, and were thus forced to hire them, and both the drivers and passengers needed protection.





https://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/04/04/race-septa-strikes-wildcat-strike-1944/

Second, unless you are seriously claiming that all black males were drafted into service during WWII, your next point is stupid and insulting. "Tell" fail Number 2

See this. By 1943, they were drafting up to 200,000 men a month. A significant ratcheting up that snatched my father right out of college. This is why one hears about so many WW2 vets (and so many casualties), because they were drafting some 20% of the eligible male population, generally only allowing those to remain stateside if they were in critical positions. One of the issues regarding the above that I cite about the transit strike here in Philly, was that because of the significance of that draft, there were few men left to operate the various transit vehicles and thus force the authority to permit black drivers (most who were beyond WW2 draft age) to supplement the dwindled number of white drivers.

Third, you are confusing subjects taught with degrees conferred AND nothing you or I said detracts from the accomplishments of Effie's family or of the reality of the benefits they (righteously) imparted.

WTF? You came up with this thing about HBCUs mainly giving degrees "in divinity" in the 1800s and didn't change that until "the turn of the century". I just showed to you how that was bullshit. My great-grandparents were not "conferred a degree" in "Divinity" from Atlanta U in 1883 and 1884.

Fourth, as I have stated before, Sanders style socialism is a farce when it comes to racial justice. Marxism, as a key component of the black liberation movement when I grew up, is a tool to repay $60 trillion and, as I said, no one is talking about that.

If you are a Marxist-Socialist, then just say it. Then people will be able to intelligently discuss things with you knowing where you are coming from. Otherwise you operate in a nefarious way attempting to normalize a school of thought as if it were universal.

Finally, I'm sorry you choose idolatry over reality.

Not sure what you are referencing?

[GaryCnf]

114. I'll just ignore

What is becoming increasingly a sad attempt to denigrate me in the most offensive way imaginable.

As for your fair question, I am not Marxist so much as I am a realist about the relationship between current economic equality memes and racial justice.

Reparation of the wealth stolen over the past 4 plus centuries would, in and of itself, take a huge step toward racial equality because it would alter the power structure. The only way to achieve that kind of wealth transfer is through Marxism. That, fortunately or unfortunately, is not the real world. Here all we can do is try to alter the power structure and the benign milquetoast socialism preached by Sanders doesn't even begin to do that and suggesting it does is pretty insulting.

On the other hand, and here we might differ, maintaining that the current power structures is working for a majority of people like us is every bit as damaging as selling rainbows.

[BumRushDaShow]

122. You can take it any way you want

What is becoming increasingly a sad attempt to denigrate me in the most offensive way imaginable.

"Correcting errors" is not "denigrating" unless the person being corrected has an authoritarian belief of superiority of knowledge.

As for your fair question, I am not Marxist so much as I am a realist about the relationship between current economic equality memes and racial justice.

Your version of being a "Realist" is about as far away from reality as I have seen on DU. It completely ignores history, history's cycles, and the very raison d'etre of the United States, i.e., the fabric that was woven into the founding documents that were not directed towards benefiting most of us. What we have today was fought for and the "power" was ceded in fits and spurts. But there will come a time when it will only be "ceded" but so far and then the "backlash" comes. We have seen that in several cycles of fits and spurts during this country's history.

Reparation of the wealth stolen over the past 4 plus centuries would, in and of itself, take a huge step toward racial equality because it would alter the power structure. The only way to achieve that kind of wealth transfer is through Marxism. That, fortunately or unfortunately, is not the real world. Here all we can do is try to alter the power structure and the benign milquetoast socialism preached by Sanders doesn't even begin to do that and suggesting it does is pretty insulting.

Well then you have admitted to being/following Marxist views and solutions. We can see how well that worked around the world. Um, not really. You see, none of these "economic" systems ever takes into account a basic human trait - "greed". Nor does it take into account another trait - "survival of the fittest". These 2 things sadly overwhelm certain attempts to change. And when the contrary forces do get minimized, they only do so within a very homogeneous society. Add any "diversity" to that society and all bets are off, the hierarchies start happening, and that's the end of that.

On the other hand, and here we might differ, maintaining that the current power structures is working for a majority of people like us is every bit as damaging as selling rainbows.

I don't think anyone on DU ever said or believes that "maintaining the current power structures is working for a majority of the people". But what IS discussed here, is how to go about changing that which is not beneficial and implementing that which is.

Problem is the argument over what the end result should be and how one gets there. And at this point, I don't think that will ever get resolved.

[GaryCnf]

126. Yeah, you are right there.

I pretty much gave up on reparations and Marxism 30 years ago. Reparations may be fair and just but there just isn't a real way to get it done.

I talk about them now for two reasons. The first is to emphasize that the current distribution of wealth and power between AA and white folks is the product of theft and not merit. The second is to emphasize that it is the wealth stripped out of poor black communities that is the primary cause of social ills which far too many people attribute to the symptoms. Absent that context, I fear our efforts will always be limited to things like taking guns off the street (through the incarceration of young black males), taking drugs off the street (same way), and taking even more money off the street by eviscerating assistance programs.

[BumRushDaShow]

129. As my response

I pretty much gave up on reparations and Marxism 30 years ago. Reparations may be fair and just but there just isn't a real way to get it done.

And a H.R. 40 from John Conyers won't be happening anymore, although I expect maybe someone will take up that mantle to keep it going. And it really should continue because you had Democratic-Socialist Ron Dellums shepherd through reparations for Japanese-Americans held in internment camps (and they made up a significant part of his district). Yet there is still the one elephant in the room left to get reparations...

I talk about them now for two reasons. The first is to emphasize that the current distribution of wealth and power between AA and white folks is the product of theft and not merit.

It's not just between AAs and whites, it's basically the case for non-wealthy (including white), non-"landowner" (of any gender).

The second is to emphasize that it is the wealth stripped out of poor black communities that is the primary cause of social ills which far too many people attribute to the symptoms. Absent that context, I fear our efforts will always be limited to things like taking guns off the street (through the incarceration of young black males), taking drugs off the street (same way), and taking even more money off the street by eviscerating assistance programs.

Here is where I disagree. The "primary cause of social ills" is not "wealth".

Every time this subject comes up, it is amazing that those arguing this ignore the fact that our wealthiest of POC are not treated the same as similar income whites. Why is this so hard to deal with and accept? In your post above you even mention about the issue of college graduates being mistaken for "bus boys" or maids. Yet you dismiss that and pretty much consider it not important. Why?

The problem IS the affect of "diversity" on humanity, and in particular, the system of racism-white supremacy instituted in the U.S. that defines and dictates the hierarchy. More money is not going to suddenly make the power structure not see a person's color, because the power structure has invested several hundred years worth of time creating stereotypes and other imagery so that "color" comes front and center, and gets associated with an individual - no matter how rich or poor.

[MrsCoffee]

124. Now you are the victim?

It would be awesome if you would just stop already.

[stevenleser]

141. Amazing how that works right? They attack someone else and they are the victim. nt

[yardwork]

131. So what do you suggest? All you post is negativity.

You don't like the Democratic Party or Democratic politicians, and you don't like Bernie Sanders, but you're not a Marxist either. You say that reparations are the "only way" to achieve equality, but then you say that will never happen.

You claim to be a realist but offer no ideas or plans.

You claim to be deeply moved by Effie's family's accomplishments but in not-very-subtle ways you suggest that she's fabricating or exaggerating them.

When called out for this behavior you claim to be black, but other posters here who have identified for many years on DU as black see issues with your characterization of black history.

This is the second time I've noticed your posts in the past few days. The earlier occasion was when you called out a black female columnist for not being an authentic black voice, or something.

What gives?

[stevenleser]

148. It's worse than plain negativity which would be honest. It's negativity often presented deceptively.

Deceptive praise, passive aggressiveness, logical fallacies of all sorts. That's what we get from that person.

[LexVegas]

157. My spidey sense is tingling. nt

[George II]

95. What an insulting post that is!

[MineralMan]

96. After actually reading your entire post, I suggest you self-delete it.

That is all.

[GaryCnf]

99. Sorry

Despite having to admit that I missed Effie's dad's age by 8 years and made a wildly inaccurate assumption about her mother's age, those errors do not in any way negate my real point that, for all that we share by virtue of our race, her family's accomplishments set them apart from a majority of others within our community and that those within that part of the community suffer in additional ways, ways that do not get discussed.

There is not one word in the OP about Effie which is anything less than laudatory or genuine. What there is are dozens of replies saying "We know you don't mean it. You really mean this." while STILL refusing to talk about the ways many in our community suffer in ways little changed since the Civil Rights era.

[MineralMan]

101. It was just a suggestion.

I saw what you did in your post. No need to explain.

[GaryCnf]

105. Unfortunately

I think people see what they want to see.

I appreciate you nonetheless.

[MrsCoffee]

116. It was blatant to anyone paying attention.

You posted it. You should just own it instead of continuing to weasel around it.

[Eliot Rosewater]

185. I wish we could just end all this dancing. One person

contributed as much or more to putting rump in office than any other and that person isnt a Democrat.

But we cant...never mind.

[MineralMan]

186. No hope for that, I'm afraid.

It will only get more frequent, I fear.

[George II]

108. Except that you forgot to use this:

[Gothmog]

172. You do realize that you are not making friends and have alienated a large number of posters

Your sad attempt to make a dumb point is failing badly but evidently you do not care. That alone speaks volumes

[Cary]

98. Really?

Shame on you for being so ugly. What did Effie do to you?

[IronLionZion]

125. I don't know what to think anymore

nothing is what it appears to be. Life is confusing as it is. DUers make it even more so.

I like liberal policies. But liberal people make my brain hurt.

[redgreenandblue]

128. Funny how many white DUers in this thread think they have identified the "right side" of an internal

discussion within the African American community.

[LexVegas]

134. ...

[yardwork]

136. Funny how committed some posters are to creating divisions, isn't it?

As one of the white posters you are talking about, I'll just say that I learned long ago not to be deterred from speaking out against bullying. To me, this is not so much an "internal discussion" so much as a rather blatant personal attack on a fellow human being. Now I'm supposed to be shamed into silence because the poster who started this claims to be black?

I have no idea if any of the people engaged in this conversation are who they say they are. I do know that a person - doesn't matter to me what ethnicity - was attacked under the guise of praise.

Not gonna stay silent about that.

[EffieBlack]

152. This isn't an "internal discussion within the African-American community"

[LexVegas]

155. I know, right? Nonsense. nt

[GaryCnf]

183. I expected better

[nolabels]

130. What a surprise, the higher one climbs, the lower they aim

I really didn't want to post to this, thinking its mostly inconsequential and over the top. Only to the fact that one being dinged replied and was not impressed because many of things were wrong. This just goes to prove that the persons following and wanting the truth should not be deterred or dismayed. Thanks to whoever that was talking about whatever

[FakeNoose]

164. Remember that movie "The Help"?

This OP reminds me of those white ladies at the card party who use the nicey-nice voices to praise their colored maids. Then when nobody is around, they tell them (in a not-nice voice) "The bathroom in the house is for whites only. You use the outhouse that's in the back yard!"

[bluecollar2]

166. Excellent OP and responses ... n/t

[R B Garr]

175. LOL!

So phony. The translation is that “certain white politicians” must never be questioned.

[Wwcd]

178. Their record, 1/2 page double spaced, says it all.

Talk about an image makeover.

This pathetic backhanded OP reeks of white man talking points.

[R B Garr]

191. It definitely reeks, all right.

Privilege galore.

[Wwcd]

192. There's no honest way to defend this bullsh**

Glad this smear wasn't removed.
It remains as a testiment to what "reeks".

[Empowerer]

177. Do not come for the Queen unless she calls you

I'm surprised you didn't already know that, my "bruh."

But you surely know it now.

[EffieBlack]

179. No. You. Didnt.

Love you, sis!

[Cha]

197. OMG!

Empowerer!

[EffieBlack]

202. I think that pretty much took care of it

[Cha]

203. Yes, it's

over. Perfect analogy.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

200. My hat is off to those who read all the posts here.

I sure don't. But I always hope it will remain a community for serious thought and opinion of Democrats. Or is it those who prefer democracy to Kleptocracy?

"KLEPTOCRACY: government with corrupt leaders (kleptocrats) that use their power to exploit the people and natural resources of their own territory in order to extend their personal wealth and political power."

By definition Democrats should be civil rights promoters. We should try to form a more perfect union through dialogue without knowing the color of those you connect with here. My one cent.