Forget about Libertarians-Why do so many of the DEMOCRATS I encounter seem to have racial issues?

[EffieBlack]

Anybody got any ideas?

[LisaM]

1. I wish I did. It seems to be getting worse.

Where I live (Seattle) is getting whiter by the day, it seems like. I honestly think people of different races are having less contact with each other on a daily basis. I've very lucky that my company has a diversity initiative that it takes seriously, but I'd guess that 75% of the people in Seattle don't encounter people of different races on a daily basis. Distance breeds misunderstanding and fear.

I also think that the diminishing power of unions has something to do with it. Unions have a lot of safeguards in place to give and protect jobs that the private sector doesn't want to abide by.

I don't know what else to say. It's demoralizing.

[maxsolomon]

23. Where I live (Seattle), it's getting more diverse every day.

It's not Portland!

I encounter people of different ethnicities and from different countries every day. I work with them, I see them on the street, on the bus, on the train, at concerts and in restaurants. I speak with Ethiopian and Somali immigrants 3 or 4 times a week. I go skiing and I hear Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Polish, and Russian on the slopes. Seattle's 98178 zip code is one of the 10 most diverse in America.

Its SO much more diverse than where I grew up (Cincinnati), where you're white or you're black.

Maybe you mean it's getting more expensive, and that resulting gentrification is driving people of modest means out of town?

[ismnotwasm]

25. Where I live, In Seattle (White Center)

Is very diverse, very working class but it getting more and more white. It’s interesting to watch.

[pnwmom]

69. That is not my experience. The schools are only 47% white. But it is true

that Seattle is getting very expensive.

[LanternWaste]

2. I don't think that wearing a Democratic pin on our lapels cures us of racism.

I don't think that wearing a Democratic pin on our lapels cures us of racism (that's my starting premise rather than a snide remark).

It may compel us to mask it more, and use it much more subtly, but after reading the back and forth threads in regards to BLM, last year, or watching John Lewis' legacy get thrown under the bus, I sure as hell don't believe the the D next our names cures us... or even mitigates the symptoms.

At this point in my life, I simply can't make the presumption anymore than simply by walking into a party of progressives that I'm walking into a party that tolerates actual racial equality.

I imagine there's a percentage difference in the amount of racism in the GOP and in our party, but I don't imagine (anymore) that the number is as dramatic or as wide as it should be.

[TheSmarterDog]

3. Because they're Americans.

Goes with the territory.

[Sailor65x1]

109. You don't get out much

Regardless of our self-flagellation, a whole lot of "Civilized" countries are far worse than the US in this regard.

[TheSmarterDog]

115. Actually I do you condescending little ...

There are too many precious snowflakes in this country that don't get that it's not that there are countries worse that the US, but that we could BE SO MUCH BETTER AT THIS.

[cbdo2007]

4. It is a natural animal instinct to fear those different from us...

And I have met very few people throughout my life, who were completely free from some type of racism or prejudice yoward see group. I'm guilty of it as well, not consciously, and I will readily admit I have a lot left to learn.

I know Dems who are super racist and Repubes who are definitely not racist and trying to define someone's treatment of other races and cultures by their political affiliation is futile.

[RandomAccess]

18. No it's not

Little children who encounter one another of different races (colors) aren't inherently afraid. That has to be taught. We are immersed in the all-encompassing stew of American racism, misogyny, and homophobia from the moment we're born.

[janx]

61. It's not necessarily taught,

but it is the environment they grow up in. Even if their parents tell them, teach them that racism is wrong, until children have been around people who aren't like them in some respect, they won't really learn.

I hate to reduce it to this, but it's very much like the socialization of the puppy that I will have to do in the coming months. It's really that simple.

[Bradshaw3]

5. Since this is anecdotal perhaps its not "many DEMOCRATS" who have racial issues

Perhaps it is a matter of seeing racism where it is not, such as in someone who simply disagrees with you on an issue. Just becasue they have a different take on an issue involving race does not make them racist.

Also as another poster point out, it is part of our evolutionary history to judge based on characteristics of those who may be seen as outsiders. Democrats, repubs white peole bronw people, black people all have certain biases but it's white people in power and currently repubs who have used prejudice to maintain privelege and power. I would look at the powers-that-be who use racial divides that have developed in all countires over time to keep us apart and enhance their power and wealth.

People are complicated. Judging individulas who you just "enounter" as racist (unless they are calling you the n-word or making outright racist statements) could say more about you than them. Do you take certain biases into these encounters? It's a fair question and I ask it sincerely. I hope you are sincere with your question and can take other perspectives into account.

[EffieBlack]

7. So, racism isn't really the problem - people who "see racism where it is not" is?

And unless someone calls me a nigger, it's wrong to assume from their other words or behaviors that they may have racial issues?

And please note, I didn't say Democrats are "racist." I said many have racial issues, which is very different. Do you believe that many Democrats DON'T have issues with race beyond seeing racism where it doesn't exist?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Squinch]

29. You knew someone was going to feel the need to splain. Because, Effie, what you think your

experience is isn't REALLY what your experience is. Some random guy on the internet knows he knows better than you what that experience ACTUALLY is. And he will tell you aaaaaalll about it.

I am a white woman, and I am sick to death of the splainers. I don't know how you, as a black woman, stomach it.

[Bradshaw3]

32. I was hoping that maybe another point of view could be considered

I wasn't expecting it or to have my questions answered but hoped it would be. Your exact title was "so many DEMOCRATS" that you encounter have racial issues. Really? So many do?

I don't whether you are talking in real life or here since no examples of these supposed racial issues were given. I don't see many people on here with racial issues, none that I can think of. Again, if you are referring to people on here who disagree with you on racial topics I don't think it's fair to characterize them that way based on what I've seen. Perhaps you have some examples of these many Democrats who have racial issues. Since there are many of them it shouldn't be hard to come up with them.

[Squinch]

37. I see people with racial issues here.

[Bradshaw3]

39. Perhaps you can give some examples

Rather than just a blannket charge.

[Squinch]

41. No need. It is obvious to those who don't feel the need to splain it away.

[Bradshaw3]

49. Or you can't back up your claims

[Squinch]

52. You go with that. I'll pretend I'm devastated.

[Bradshaw3]

75. Sarcasm after emojis?

I guess you think it gets you out of having to justify your claims. Come on, be an honest debater. If you make a claim back it up. If not, then admit you can't.

[MrsCoffee]

73. Or perhaps that little gotcha has been played before.

Calling out a DUer and insinuating they are racist will get your posts hidden almost every time.

No one is going to bite even though we have all seen such posts here.

[Bradshaw3]

76. I was genuinely asking not playing a game

I have not seen such racist posts. I see insuation on this thread and the ones doing it don't seem worried about getting banned.

[MrsCoffee]

81. You asked her to call out DUers as racist by linking to their posts.

That will get your post hidden 9.5 out of 10 times as a personal attack TOS violation. Five hidden posts and you are banned. No one is gong to take that risk just because you choose to bury your head in the sand.

This has been explained to you. If you don’t want to believe that, that is your prerogative, but facts are still facts.

[Bradshaw3]

122. And you make a personal attack here

I don't have my head buried in the sand. I asked for examples because wanted some actual proof of this wild claim. What was done here was to insinuate that many people on this forum are racist - using a code term like "racial issues" without any substantive backing of that claim. If facts are facts then where are the facts backing this claim? I'm beginning to think the whole banning thing is just an excuse to make attacks against fellow DUers and then justify an inability to back them up.

[MrsCoffee]

125. You think this whole banning thing is just an excuse?

Perhaps you should read the Terms of Service for this website.

Most posters here realize that this is not a wild claim and are too smart take your bait.

You should note that the most egregious posts get removed permanently and cannot be linked to. But they do live on in our memories.

If you really wanted that proof you would do your own DU search. There are plenty of posts that haven't been removed. Enough sealioning.

[Squinch]

77. Yes, but Bradshaw tells me he didn't know that. He wants to know if, when I pointed that out to

him, I was saying the moderators are racist.

There are many things Bradshaw has questions about.

I think we're getting the gist of the intent here.

[MrsCoffee]

82. I certainly did get the gist.

Let’s see how many more times he asks you to do it or implies it’s perfectly acceptable.

[Squinch]

83. I imagine it will be many. I learned a new word today: Sealioning. It's very handy.

[MrsCoffee]

86. That is very handy indeed.

Thanks for teaching me that one!

[Squinch]

88. Right? I've seen the tactic a million times before and never knew there was a word for it!

[sheshe2]

96. I learned that phrase sometime ago from, BMUS.

[Squinch]

97. LOL! What a good teacher!

[sheshe2]

103. Oh, yes.

[DonCoquixote]

43. well you could talk about how many of the major afams

got chased out of here by the abuse of the jury system. lets give an example of bravenak who actually had someone find heer real life address and send insulting mail, all because she would not bow down to big Bernie Sanders. Let;s throw in the way this site had many defenders of Geogre Zimmerman, and people who are "liberals" always speak for someone that shoots a bllack male dead, as if the kid deserved it.

That should be a fine appetizer to chew on.

[DonCoquixote]

46. and here is some more

The attacks on Joy Reid by certain groups are sad https://medium.com/@investigator_21314/the-lynching-of-joy-ann-reid-by-the-bernie-left-c7de005a19fb

For almost a year now, a very vocal segment of Bernie Sanders supporters have harassed and stalked black activists, journalists and contributors on Twitter and other social media sites. Behind this campaign was the fact that a lot of black voters didn’t vote for Bernie, which was met with incredible anger by a part of the Bernie left.

Instead of analyzing why POC were critical of Bernie, or why Bernie refused to campaign among POC, they started to harass and intimidate black Twitter users.

The list of victims to this aggressive crowd of Bernie supporters is long by now: Joy Ann Reid, Donna Brazile, Jehmu Greene, Neera Tanden, Kamala Harris, Maxine Waters, Yamiche Alcindor, Zerlina Maxwell, and less known Twitter users: Angry Black Lady (Imani Gandy), T_FisherKing, Mr Dane/ Mr Weeks, Sir James, Ange_Amene, Bravenak and many, many more.

What these people have in common is that

A: they’re POC,

B: they’re at times very critical of Bernie Sanders.

This in itself is enough for ongoing extreme harassment, stalking, threats, intimidation and worse.

[Bradshaw3]

48. I've seen nothing like that in my time here

Do you have some links to show what you describe? Did a DUer do that to the poster you mention and for that reason? I've seen not one post that said "the black kid desrved it" as you write. Is there a link to those comments from liberals as you describe?

[DonCoquixote]

54. well I can loook back to the wayback machine

andd see if I can dig up siooime of the slop. However, I do ask what you think of the way I did provide evidence of what happened to many afams on here. o any afams listening,I am sure that if this new poster wants some evidence, you can provide him some..if he decides to read it.

[DonCoquixote]

55. your time here

well, then heed what people who have been here for more than a decade say.

[Bradshaw3]

68. Actually people here have said that one poster

deserved to be banned. Do yo heed what they say?

[DonCoquixote]

105. I heed what many say..

But when I show you an article that details what has happened,, and you say you have not seen that here, the only thing I can see if that if past records and the words of many here do not convince you, then you will see for yourself, as history repeats.

[Squinch]

56. YOu know very well that if someone linked to a post as an example of racism here, they would

be hidden.

Just stop.

[Bradshaw3]

67. No I don't know that

And it would help if you would stop making personal attacks on me. I guess what you are saying is the moderators have racial issues?

[Squinch]

71. Well now you know.

[MicaelS]

57. The hell with bravenak.

She was a bomb-thrower and shit flinger. Case in point:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=152704

Now she is being made into some sort of martyr. Skinner was spot on. She got what she deserved.

[KitSileya]

135. Oh, I don't know. Dismissing the overwhelmingly African American Democratic Party base in the South

as being part of the Confederacy because they didn't vote for whom you supported, and doing so with impunity, is pretty racist to me. The same is telling them that they've been essentially brainwashed because they support a candidate that has spent 50 years building a coalition with African American communities all over the country, visiting them, listening to them, working for them, doing dangerous work for them - it caused African American voters to suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, doncha know, and showed that they hadn't gotten rid of that "master-slave mentality". All of this with hundreds of recs, and surviving alerts.

[MaryMagdaline]

79. Your point of view is well represented

We need to hear from African Americans who are a small minority here. First, they are fellow Americans. Second, they are the backbone of the Democratic Party. In the last 50 years, they have voted right. I for one want to hear their impressions and have read enough from their posts to value their opinions.

[sheshe2]

93. One suggestion.

Go read in the African American Group here on DU. You will have to go back a bit. They have been inactive for some time now, most were run off the board here one way or another. You could ask yourself why on a Democratic board that group does not feel welcome here.

[JCanete]

11. there's a broad spectrum though. You can be philisophically non-racist. You can mentally comport to

believe all people are equal, understand the underlying genetics, and still judge people by their culturally defined "merits."

So now you making assessments about how a person dresses or talks or the music that person listens to...you are making assumptions about work ethic and mental diligence, based upon a person's status in life and education level, vernacular, etc. rather than first, holding space for the possibility that you don't know all and that all of these things are rich and deep, but second, taking some details(economics in particular) in the context of all the systemic anchors and weights that lock people in place, which ironically, heavily includes your faulty assessments that affects who you call the cops on or who you worry about moving into your community, or who you hire.

People are complicated, I agree. But one thing that is common is that we tend not to question a reality that is working for us. In fact, if you are privileged and have a nice life and home, etc. and you suspect people do not have the amenities you do, the more you dwell on the injustice of that the more pain you take on. Conversely, the more you are able to assume its them and not you that is the reason for this disparity...that you're just doing it right, and that " golly gee, why can't other people just do it right....they'd have it so much easier..." the more you can ignore the problem.

The more you assume that "some people just have that magical formula for success and that we live in a meritocricy and oh how weird, that success just happens to follow along racial lines even though, of course i"m not racist...", the more you must interalize on some level a difference, and since you aren't thinking that that difference is the broader culture, well then it must be something wrong with "certain" micro-cultures. My guess is this sort of thinking reflects a lot of our silicon valley white democrats.

As to where people see racism manifesting and being wrong about where they point their fingers, well people are people and that can happen, but this is the wrong that needs correcting. You can't ask people who sense this dynamic to hold their tongue and always assume the best. The likelyhood is that too many people are still not assuming the best about them, based on entirely bogus stereo-types. I think white people, myself included, can dial down our umbrage and hear out the argument. We have so much less at stake beyond a bruised ego, and it could turn out we learn something.

[RandomAccess]

19. You post has an untenable premise:

that anyone other than PoC could have the right to define what racism is and what it encompasses. YOU do not -- UNLESS you're a PoC yourself and I'm guessing you're not. In fact, I'd probably bet about a year's income on it.

Your post is so thoroughly imbued with white supremacy-imbued attitudes that it's gobsmacking.

[Bradshaw3]

38. That's a completely unfounded and scurrilous charge

Perhaps you overlooked this part of my post in your rush to judgment:

"it's white people in power and currently repubs who have used prejudice to maintain privelege and power. I would look at the powers-that-be who use racial divides that have developed in all countires over time to keep us apart and enhance their power and wealth."

You are seriously going to say that is white supremacy?

I never said anyone other than POC have the right to define racism. Another untrue and completely unfair charge. Your post is so wrong it's not even possible to debate. Just because someone doesn't likee what they read does not mean they get to make unfounded charges.

[Squinch]

42. In this thread you attempted to define racism when speaking to a woman of color. You told her that

her report of encountering people with racist issues here on DU was probably wrong.

[RandomAccess]

44. +1

[Bradshaw3]

45. No I did no such thing

I pointed out how humans get in-group, out-group thinking as part of their evolution. There was no attempt to define racism whatsoever. I have a different opinion as to there being "many DEMOCRATS" on here with racial issues. I asked questions as to whether there were other explanations. Rather than making false accusations perhaps you could give examples of the many Democrats on here with racial issues.

[Squinch]

47. Kay.

[Bradshaw3]

51. I guess when you can't back up your assertions

go to emojis.

[Squinch]

53. My assertions have been very amply and clearly backed up in this very thread.

But if you need to continue shadow-boxing, carry on.

[EffieBlack]

60. Naw, Boo, you did ...

Perhaps it is a matter of seeing racism where it is not, such as in someone who simply disagrees with you on an issue. Just becasue they have a different take on an issue involving race does not make them racist.

...

People are complicated. Judging individulas who you just "enounter" as racist (unless they are calling you the n-word or making outright racist statements) could say more about you than them.

[Bradshaw3]

62. No those quotes don't show that at all

As to the first I was pointing out something that is true. In this thread you claimed there were many Democrats who have racial issues. My questions or alternative explanations were simply trying to get you to either back up that claim or maybe take a different look at it.

As to the second I'm sure you are aware of confirmation bias. That was one of my alternative explanations. Since you gave no examples either in real life or on here of what you were talking about I only have your assertion to go on. To make such a charge as that neeeds some proof.

[Squinch]

63. Those quotes show exactly that.

[Bradshaw3]

65. Another baseless claim

[Squinch]

70. You have people nicer than I patiently pointing out where you are showing bias.

They are people of color. They know more about this than you. They are doing you a favor. Listen to them.

[RandomAccess]

84. Yes, you DID

You don't seem to (want to) understand that, and I understand t doesn't feel to you like something you did nor did you consciously mean it that way, but your underlying premise is EXACTLY that, as I tried to point out too. Here, as a reminder, are your exact words:

Perhaps it is a matter of seeing racism where it is not, such as in someone who simply disagrees with you on an issue. Just becasue they have a different take on an issue involving race does not make them racist.

When you, a white person, suggest that a black person is or could be "seeing racism where it is not," you are on very, very dangerous ground. They have lived experience which trumps your understanding (and mine) of what racism is and isn't all to hell. EVEN IF YOU WERE right in any one particular instance, it's tremendously insulting, presumptuous and yes, racist, to say that to someone of color.

[RandomAccess]

58. Is it?

First let me clarify that I meant "white supremacy" as a system of white privilege, not that YOU were espousing white supremacy. Think of "rape culture" as an analogy.

Here's what you said that is objectionable:

Perhaps it is a matter of seeing racism where it is not, such as in someone who simply disagrees with you on an issue. Just becasue they have a different take on an issue involving race does not make them racist.

The first sentence is especially egregious. You are suggesting that YOU know better than a woman of color what is and isn't racism; or that she doesn't / can't.

. . . I would look at the powers-that-be who use racial divides that have developed in all countires over time to keep us apart and enhance their power and wealth.

Yeah, sure, but that doesn't alleviate our responsibility to get beyond that. You're too easily just blaming TPTB, as if the rest of us are powerless.

People are complicated. Judging individulas who you just "enounter" as racist (unless they are calling you the n-word or making outright racist statements) could say more about you than them.

Well, that says more about YOU than you imagine. You seem to think racism is l limited to just to the most outrageous episodes of name-calling and other "outright racist statements." And probably actions. There is so much more to it, and you've demonstrated that you're not really aware of or sensitive to that.

But for sure telling a PoC that they don't have it right is problematic.

[Bradshaw3]

64. Only one of those assertions is accurate

The first sentence is based on multiple posts, including one where it was intimated that those who disagree must have some "racial issue". I offered another explanation. This is a forum where people debate. I didn't make any accusations, rather I tried to engage in a way that wasn't so accusatory as the OP with a charge of many Democrats who have racial issues. A claim like that needs to be backed up, not just tell anyone who questions it that they have no right to since the person who made it is a POC. That is the kind of pc that will backfire.

The second sentence, yes we have a responsibility to go beyond that. Never said we didn't. The OP's orginal question was why do so many Democrats have racial issues. Since no examples were given of this behavior I can only work with what I see here.

And yes I do know that POC are subjected to all kinds of racism not just the most blatant. Those were just two blatant examples of it. I didn't go down a list, but did ask what examples of it are on here? Haven't seen any yet that would qualify.So no that doesn't say a lot about me. Doesn't it strike you as funny that you and others are making such broad generalizations about me and others on here, yet decrying prejudice in others?

And it is perfectly ok to question a POC of when they make a claim like that. Democrats either believe in reason and facts and free speech or we don't. To give POC a pass when it comes to discussing topics is itself racist.

[sheshe2]

104. Yet when they do...

Yet when they do...

I never said anyone other than POC have the right to define racism.

You then explain why they are wrong.

[janx]

66. I don't know how old Effie is,

(and my apologies to you Effie for speaking as if you are not here), but if s/he is over 50, this kind of thing is ingrained based on experience. I've known black people (I'm showing my age and the age of my friends) who have experienced negative discrimination for a long time, so even when associating with younger, more enlightened and socialized people, the question of racism arises.

It's not always a simple, overt matter of calling you a racist epithet or exhibiting crazy racist behavior. It's things like getting pulled over for a slight speeding infraction and then being questioned about whether you actually own the nice car. It's about your behavior on public transportation. That kind of racism still exists and though racism against African Americans has lessened, it is a reminder of the kinds of things that were going on when I was a kid and long before that.

It still happens, and it also brings back horrible memories to Effie and other people. We'd like to believe that these things have been erased from our society, that people do not act that way. Personally, I have felt that emotion as an adult: This is the 21st century--let it go. But it hangs on for Effie and many others.

[Bradshaw3]

74. That is very much true

All of the things you wrote and I have witnessed that as well in my lifetime. And racism is very much with us in many different forms. I understand that. But I also don't want to see Democrats get divided, especially over a charge that is not grounded in what I have seen here. As for the personal life of somone of color that is different. I can't know what they go through but I have no doubt they have to deal with it on a daily basis.

[sheshe2]

108. Bradshaw.

You have been here less than a year, you missed the Stockholm Syndrome and fried chicken and watermelon posts.

And no, I will not link them. Please take the time to research them before you say in fact that none of that exists. It does and we have read them and some rec'ed them to the top of the page.

[DonCoquixote]

114. I will

https://www.democraticunderground.com/12511391558

This is a good start bradshaw. You have a right to your opinion, but do look and see as you form that opinion.

[sheshe2]

116. Thanks.

Last edited Wed Apr 25, 2018, 10:18 PM - Edit history (1)

And that is only a start. I miss msanthrope.

[Bradshaw3]

121. Please don't make accusations that aren't true

I never said that they don't exit. I said I haven't seen them. Besides I don't think the OP was started because of some long ago post; it was based on recent posts. And I repeat again, if anyone can even just quote part of such a recent post then that would at least provide some backing to this claim of many Democrats with "racial issues".

What I believe is that it is easier to make a claim such as that than it is to defend a position from legitimate, non-racist disagreements. When I have asked to defend this position or consider an alternative explanation I have been subjected to personal attacks, told my posts were "imbued with white supremacy" and other ad hominem attacks -- all to deflect from legitimate questions about such a wild claim.

I have only the claims of others that this place was filled with racist posts in the past, or is now seemingly filled with people with racial issues. That would be terrible if true but based on the responses of some on here - not you - I am skeptical.

[janx]

131. When friends describe it to you, yes, you can imagine it.

In that way, you can know it. I'm tired of whites saying that they can't know something like that, since they have probably come in contact with racism or some other form of bigotry. So that claim is bullshit. Whites have never known bigotry? Bigotry comes in many forms.

When racial bigotry happens, for instance when you are out with friends, it is much more obvious. There is no "they" in that situation. It hits you in the face, for example, when you are going to a swimming pool with your friends in the 70s and suddenly you are not admitted because one of your friends is black.

Things have changed for the better, but that particular friend is deeply affected for a long time. And so are you.

[DonCoquixote]

112. with alll due respect

This is the 21st century--let it go. But it hangs on for Effie and many others.

First of all, racism may be less overt than in the pre milk days, but it still is deadly, as any number of unarmed afams could tell you, if they did not happened to be dead at the hands of cops. You can say that effie's age is perhaps a reason she feels a certain way, but the fact is that black people are still being killed, still being called the n word, and yes, as Charlottesville showed, there are people who are working to bring those days BACK. That is not something you can "let go" when racists are shoving it in your face, like a pistol. The dead bodies are real! They have not been erased, and regardless of what you may like to believe, the killing is real.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/number-of-fatal-shootings-by-police-is-nearly-identical-to-last-year/2017/07/01/98726cc6-5b5f-11e7-9fc6-c7ef4bc58d13_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.0c27225ae365

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/08/the-counted-police-killings-2016-young-black-men

this is NOT THE PAST.

[janx]

124. Read it again. n/t

[DonCoquixote]

129. why?

If you meant to express something different, than you can say "perhaps let me say it this way,"because obviously, Effie and others did not get that meaning. Just because she is old does not mean that the reality of the world is one bit different, and if it not different, just how are we supposed to "let it go." You may heave tried to express a different point, but telling someone to "read it again" is no way to make understanding, as it seems to imply what you think should be obvious.

[janx]

130. Because as I explained,

it is tempting to think racism does not appear in the 21st century, when it does. Also, you have no reason to explain what others understand or do not about the post.

[DonCoquixote]

132. ok...

though while now I do not think you meant it, there are some that can take your words an use them to beat
Effie, as if those "old" do not get it.

[Squinch]

117. This is not a matter of "memories." That's just crazy. "Let it go"? WTF??

[janx]

123. Read it again. Thanks. n/t

[mcar]

119. Once again

[Iggo]

6. They've been raised in this system, and the system is racist.

Simplest answer I can give.

[rockfordfile]

8. I have never met any in my life.

But my experience is having met Republican conservative Christian racists. I have interracial family members, and I live in the south.

[brooklynite]

9. Care to explain what that means?

[Tipperary]

13. I am curious too.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. Unevolved humans...

Suspicion of "others" was likely a necessary defense mechanism many millennia ago, and we still have remnants of those primitive fears and dislikes.

The amygdala still has a way to go.

[MicaelS]

12. Because Social Justice isn't the first thing on their agenda.

I am a 60 yr old hetero white male. I have no experience with what POC or LBGT people, especially black men, have gone through. Therefore Social Justice is not the first thing I think about.

[JustAnotherGen]

72. I'm a high earning black woman

The $15 an hour minimum wage thing is lost on me. Ditto the weed thing and free college for all.


Doesn't make me a non Democratic - just means they don't register for me.

[EffieBlack]

126. +1000

[DonCoquixote]

113. well understood, but

If you want their votes, you may need to try to understand, just like they need to understand you.

[uponit7771]

15. Democrats are more open to progressive change

[NCTraveler]

87. Important thing to remember in a conversation like this. Nt

[Demsrule86]

16. I think Democrats are affected by the Right Wing...Stockholm syndrome?

Look at how Joy is being treated.

[Solomon]

17. I've always said that there's just as many

left wing racists as there are right wing racists. DU proves it every day. It was particularly noticeable when Obama was in office, and always noticeable whenever a black person gets shot by the cops or some other racial incident occurs like the Starbucks thing.

[HipChick]

22. Agree...there are two seperate societies, regardless of left or right

It's a US cultural thing, I say that having grown up in the UK

[safeinOhio]

20. Here is how I see it.

There is no such thing as, racist vs non racist. No pun intended, but it is not a black and white issue. It is a curve and you can be at one end or the other. Those at the least racist end realize this and try to be the best that they can. Those in the middle really don't give it much thought and those at the most racist end embrace it. Then there is everyone in-between.

Pretty much true for gay, not gay.

[Squinch]

31. I agree with this. I have been peeling that onion of my own racism for decades. When I think I

have eradicated it, I am always wrong. There is always some new area of my own privilege or some reaction of my own that I realize later was based in racism.

Most recently, I heard about something that happened at work that was so racist, I just couldn't believe someone would do it. I asked for context, like, "Could there be some other explanation?" Clearly there was no explanation or context that could make it NOT racist. It didn't take me long to check myself, but that knee-jerk reaction of my own bugged me.

[peggysue2]

21. Democrats are Americans

As a Nation and as individuals we nearly all have racial problems. I say that as a white woman who has only had one black friend (as opposed to acquaintances). And we never talked about race. It was the elephant in the room but we never discussed it, rather we talked around it. I think about that often--how I might have opened the discussion but didn't. We were neighbors; our kids were friends. The kids did talk about race, argued about it back and forth. My one son would come home and relate the discussions. The sky did not fall in and they remained friends throughout high school and into their college years.

As for my part? I regret not having the courage to open up, reach out, start an honest discussion. Knowing Janet, she probably would have accepted my awkwardness, laughed about it and teased me later. But that seemed unknowable then.

So yes, I'm a Dem and in that moment failed to live up to my convictions and belief system. Over the fear of confrontation and possible insult. Which in retrospect sounds pretty silly. The sad thing is I waited too long to have that conversation. Janet died prematurely, barely 50 years old. It was a harsh reality check. But there it is.

I think for others, we often live in our own separate enclaves. We keep talking about diversity but unless you live in an urban area, there seems to be less of it. That certainly is the case where I'm living now.

So for what they're worth, those are my 2 cents.

[Kaleva]

24. I'm unaware of the political affiliation of the vast majority of people I meet or know.

As for the very few (2) I know to be Democrats, I do not know if they are racists or not. One is a judge who I'm somewhat acquainted with while the other is a retired substance abuse counselor.

[HopeAgain]

26. I am not sure what you are referring to by "racial issues"

I think most Democrats are appalled by what we see happening today with voter suppression, police violence against minorities, unfair treatment of minorities in the criminal justice system and systemic discrimination. Is there bias that every human has to make a concerted effort to fight within themselves? Maybe.

[Fresh_Start]

27. I sort it out this way

Republican viewpoint = you are my inferior
Libertarian viewpoint = everyone else is inferior to me
Democrat viewpoint = mostly oblivious viewpoint but usually not with malice

[IronLionZion]

28. Some people like to keep their privileges

and may support some slow generic liberal progress but still manage to minimize how much privilege they give up.

While enjoying privilege it can be hard to get woke. Sleep is so comfortable it can make a person ignore several wake up calls that only impact other people.

For example: Those damn feminists want to take away my male privilege.

[TheSmarterDog]

30. The treatment for Joy Reid over the couple days by supposed liberals

Makes me think this country is doomed.

[jrthin]

36. Agreed! nt

[hueymahl]

33. That has not been my experience

So I can’t help you there.

[LexVegas]

34. See Joy Reid. nt

[gollygee]

35. You've got a good point

I have noticed that the Libertarian set is particularly racist, but yes white America has racial issues, not just one part of white America. We've got to take care of our own messes and not just complain about everyone else.

[Ferrets are Cool]

40. Be lucky that you encounter so many democrats. I live surrounded by

repugs, racists and librul haters. I wish I knew so many democrats that we could discuss racial issues. I don't.

[janx]

59. Regardless of political affiliation,

racism arises from ignorance. Let me give you an example.

My best friend in college (and now sister-in-law of three decades) proclaimed herself an ideological socialist when we were in our late teens/early twenties. She conceded that socialism wasn't pragmatic, so she was a staunch Democrat, like her parents--wonderful people, by the way. She grew up in Iowa and didn't have a lot of experiences with black people. She was a faculty kid and well educated.

We took a trip to my home, which was in a suburb of St. Louis. We stopped in the city to get a six pack of beer so that we could have some at the end of our trip. When we went into the little grocery store to get the beer, she became uncomfortable and commented to me that we were the only white people in the place. I really had not thought about it and pointed to another white person, kind of laughing--"See? There's a white person!"

So she was and is one of the smartest and most delightful people I know--she has been family now for decades--and she would never say or do anything racist, and back in those days, she would have been fearful of having the appearance of doing so. But the fact that she was so uncomfortable in that situation was a form of racism in that it was fear, a fear of the unknown.

You could probably say the same thing about someone of any political affiliation. Sure, there are still some people (usually older) who are overt racists, but in general I've found that people who pay ideological lip service to equality, even to the point of overdoing it are often intrinsically racist themselves. They just don't realize it because they haven't spent enough time with people they perceive as different from themselves.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

78. Because they don't think they have them, even though they were raised in a society built upon and

for white supremacy. But somehow they avoided it! They can't possibly be racist, how very dare you!

[Solomon]

133. Exactly. Being somewhat progressive, they

can't imagine being racist even if they are. That's why some of us have always said, we would rather deal with overt racists than the so called liberal version. At least you can see the overt ones coming.

[NCTraveler]

80. Runs deep. +1 Nt

[sharedvalues]

85. This is a divisive post, which divides Democrats

The GOP right now is very very scared of their racist history and racist propaganda machine that courts racists to get votes for billionaires.

The GOP being revealed for what it is - the party of racism - will devastate their chances in the future.

So GOP goals are served by claiming instead that (some) Democrats are instead at fault. This is the "mirror theory" -- accusing your opponents of YOUR OWN sins.

Effie, I'm not sure what led you to post this, but you are helping Republicans with posts like this. That's the side this post is taking. Please reconsider.

[EffieBlack]

89. Thanks for your advice (aka 'splainin')

But I'll pass.

[sharedvalues]

91. You're taking the side of Rove, Bannon, Russia, and Paul Ryan

If that's what your intention is, I can't say anything about it.

But the major systematic force that increases racism in this country is:
the Republican party and their propaganda machine.

Reagan courted racists at Neshoba County.
Nixon courted racists via the Southern Strategy.
Bush courted racists via Willie Horton - Lee Atwater admitted as such.

Here's a senior Nixon aide admitting the GOP INTENTIONALLY persecutes black people. Intentionally. It seems like focusing on the GOP's racism would be important.

https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

"The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people," former Nixon domestic policy chief John Ehrlichman told Harper's writer Dan Baum for the April cover story published Tuesday.

"You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin. And then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities," Ehrlichman said. "We could arrest their leaders. raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news. Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did."

Ehrlichman's comment is the first time the war on drugs has been plainly characterized as a political assault designed to help Nixon win, and keep, the White House.

[EffieBlack]

94. Thanks again, but you can be done 'splainin' racism in America to me now.

Really.

[sharedvalues]

98. I'm talking about politics.

My last few posts have been about politics and political parties. I'm talking about the Dems and the GOP and their policy. I'm discussing the systemic structure of the parties, and it doesn't seem like you agree with me.

And I'm a Democrat, so it's appropriate for us to talk about Democrats and political parties. "Dem'splaining", if you will.

I really really would like to engage you on the political structure of the two parties, and how GOP donors try to divide America to get votes for billionaires, while the Dems generally try to make peoples' lives better. That's been my point, and I'd love to have you engage me on that point.

[Squinch]

99. If you want to talk about that, you should start a thread about that, rather than making this

thread about the issue you want to talk about.

[sharedvalues]

101. will do. Also, love your sig

Good sig pic.

[Squinch]

102. Thanks!

[Squinch]

90. In this post, a black woman, i.e. a member of the absolutely, hands down, most loyal Democratic

demographic, is pointing out a concern she has about the party.

My feeling is that if we know what is good for us, rather than trying to silence her, we better damn well listen.

[sharedvalues]

92. That's fine, but the GOP's racism didn't get mentioned, so I wanted to add it

The GOP intentionally stirs up racism. Intentionally. To get votes. For billionaires.

As a political enterprise here, one political goal is to stop the GOP. Because they inflame racism, intentionally. Some GOP are racists, some Dems are racist, that is true. It's demographics. More Republicans are racist than Dems.

But the SYSTEMIC issue is that the Republican party tries to INCREASE racism. And the Democratic party does not. That is HUGE. And it's worth focusing on and talking about.

Until Fox and Limbaugh and Hewitt and Levin and Drudge and Breitbart and IJR and Reason and Wash Examiner and Wash Times and the NY Post and WSJ ed board and the rest of Republican hate radio -- until they stop trying to inflame racism in the US, we're going to have an uphill battle.

[Squinch]

95. Yes, that is worth talking about. But so is this. Not least becauuse it is a concern of members

of the most loyal Democratic voters. Democratic voters, by the way, whose concerns we have ALWAYS glibly glossed over or put last on our list.

Yes. What you are saying is worth talking about. So talk about it. Start a thread bout it. But don't use it to minimize this issue. Because this issue is equally important, and it is what THIS thread is about.

[sharedvalues]

100. Oh, yes- the Dems should DEFINITELY work harder for minorities

Dems have failed lots of people and groups over the past few decades. And we can do a lot more to help minorities. If that's your point I'm definitely on board and agree.

When we think about Democratic voters and their concerns, I think Dems haven't done enough since LBJ, back in 1968, passed the Civil Rights Act because it was the right thing to do. At that time, he knew he was losing elections - "losing the South for a generation", but he did the right thing. As did the Democratic party at the time. It took a decade plus for all the racists like Thurmond to leave the Democratic party and join the GOP. But once the racists had gone to the GOP, the GOP embraced racism to win elections.

So what do you think Dems should do now to help minorities? And which Dem politicians are most out front on those issues?

[Squinch]

107. I'd start by listening when they voice concerns. Then, don't deny or try to silence those concerns.

Once that is done, we may get somewhere.

[gollygee]

110. Why are they afraid of it if it works so well that they use it for propaganda?

Racism doesn't cost the Republican Party votes - it gets them votes. That's a sad truth.

Racism is a societal problem - not just one political party or any one segment of society. It's all of our problem and we need to have some big-picture discussions about it instead of just saying, "Well they're worse" all the time and ignoring our own issues.

[sharedvalues]

120. GOP is afraid of racism because it's kryptonite for them - they're trying counteraccusations

GOP knows propaganda well, and they know when you have committed sins, one way to deflect blame is to accuse the other party of committing the same crime you have.

Because then voters will throw up their hands and say "both sides do it! ¯_(ツ _/¯"

This is why Dems must point out that - while there are a lot of GOP racists and some Dem racists -- only ONE party is the party of systemic racism. Only one party is the party that deliberately inflames racism in America to get votes. That is bad for America - the GOP has made racism worse. There are plenty of white Americans who think black people are holding them down, taking away their jobs and their government funding and their college spots. In no small part, many of those white Americans think that because the GOP propaganda machine tells them that. To get votes for billionaires. We need to stop this racist propaganda from the GOP.

[nini]

106. Because it takes a bit of work to get the hell out of their bubble?

I was lucky in that I went to a high school that was perfectly integrated. We all coexisted and to this day we all know how lucky we were to have that as our 'normal'.

I wish I knew how to really answer your question because some of the comments on see on this board at times makes me shake my head and often times pisses me off.

[SidDithers]

111. Economic anxiety, I'm sure...nt

Sid

[Squinch]

118. Totally.

[democratisphere]

128. I don't think "so many" Democrats have racial issues.

Most redumbliCONs I know are racist of one form or another. Very few Democrats I know are racists; having difficulty coming up with even one. I'm sure there are some but truly don't believe there are many.

[Buzz cook]

134. Because racist propaganda is that good.

Racist have had hundreds of years to set a baseline of lies in our culture. That continues to be reinforced by both overt and covert ways.
That infects even well intentioned people, it infects minorities as well as the majority. It profits the powerful and gives privilege to otherwise shat upon members of the majority.

The news shows criminal violence with a black face, entertainment shows blacks as maids, whores, and thugs, and so on. People tend to believe that stuff.

[Garrett78]

136. Among Democrats or leftists, it's more a problem of dismissiveness than explicit racism.

As I mentioned recently in another thread, Tim Wise has pointed out that even in the early '60s, the vast majority of white Americans essentially believed racism (at least of the structural/systemic variety) was a non-issue. As Wise says, that seems absurd from the perspective of those living today...and yet denial of ongoing systemic racism persists to this day. Democrats, or those on the left side of the political spectrum, are clearly not immune to this. Many (from Bernie Sanders to George Lakoff to Sam Harris) have decried "identity politics," while promoting the preeminence of classism and the notion that a rising tide approach is sufficient.

And as I've written about at length, many on the left possess a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between social justice and economic justice.

[EffieBlack]

137. This is painfully true

Thanks for linking to your previous post - it is excellent and needs to be read and considered again and again.

[Garrett78]

138. The Dem platform should incorporate...

...the platform of TM4BL, including reparations. But most Dems don't seem willing to touch the subject. Far too many seem to think it's best to put energy toward winning back so-called Reagan Democrats or those who voted for Trump. And they join the chorus of those bashing identity politics, while saying little about race-based voter suppression and gerrymandering. This is pure foolishness.

[Sunsky]

139. Because they're humans

and have the same tendencies. I believe however, that it's more pronounced in Republican party.
The Repubs battle for the hearts and minds of black voters by creating chaos and suppressing our votes. This tactic is quite evident this week. We have to endure: A) Some old and some fake blog posts that they claim to be written by Joy-Ann Reid are now being used to destroy one of the most prominent AA television hosts. Creating tension between the black and the LGBTQ community.
B) Kanye West and Chance the Rapper (two well known AA figures in the entertainment industry), telling us black people that it's ok to love the racist Conman and that black people don't have to be Democrats, it's ok to vote for another party (who won't do crap to help our community).
This morning I listened to a few callers on black radio trying to justify and encourage these sentiments. If this continues the blue wave will be a sea of tears for us in November.