Beware of this Rovian maneuver... it is coming.

It's just like something he'd do. Just like something he already HAS done, as you've astutely pointed out.

And you're correct about something else, too: it's EQUALLY wise always to be trying to out-think him. You have to try to stay one step ahead. Anticipate, anticipate, anticipate.

and his candidate won...
JAMES MOORE: This I think is perhaps a seminal moment in Karl’s career. He all of a sudden, his candidate is sort of lagging, and he all of a sudden, Karl does, discovers on the wall of his office a bugging device. He discovers it and calls a news conference the morning of the only debate in the gubernatorial race of 1986 between Mark White, who was the incumbent and Karl’s candidate, governor Bill Cleamons who was not a goody debater.

This news covers up all the news about the debate. It leads the television newscast; I was a television reporter at that time. It was all any of us could talk about on the 6:00 and 10:00 news on the night of the debate. The debate became a secondary issue which was good for Karl’s candidate since he was a lousy debater and frequently flew offhand and angered easily, but we weren’t interested in policy and issues. We all were compelled to report on the intrigue around this bugging device.

Now, was it real? No, I don’t think it was. The F.B.I. agents and everyone else who investigated it who spoke to me and I got copies of the investigation which indicated that the battery life on the bugging device indicated that it’s been on the wall for less than an hour, had a six hour battery life that broadcasts only within half mile range.

Whoever planted it did so knowing that they would either have access to go back and change battery every six hours, or they weren’t really interested in broadcasting information in Karl’s office, they were simply interested in having that bug discovered. But it had its desired affect. Ultimately, the campaign turned around, the incumbent’s numbers flagged as a result of the distraction caused by the controversy.

from--->http://www.democracynow.org/2003/10/1/conflict_of_interest_white_house_rejects

...

The shit they come up with...

Maybe since he has shown his hand too many times, his tricks will be less effective. I hope so.

We're not dealing with fonts or typewriters as we did in the Bush AWOL story. The only way I see it working is if they release a copy of Romney's actual returns bearing the date stamp of receipt by the IRS and his signature. If Romney's real returns look completely legit and non-controversial, I'll be very surprised. I would think any scheme of this kind would only put more pressure on Romney to produce the real returns.

in doubt. The only tax return that is valid is one that Romney releases and states is valid.

Heavily redacted so no one will learn anything from it as was the case with scrub and the national guard issue.

Undoubtedly, there will be at least a few skeptics no matter what. Romney cannot legally modify the original documents, and these originals are what we have been asking for all along.

More black out than actual report is the thing
But what won't be blacked out willl show that karls plant is a fake and that is all that will be needed for most of the pukie and the fence setters is what I'm saying.
Joe

it couldn't have been that year.

That is what they did with Bush's national guard memo, used a typewriter that wasn't around.

Otherwise, what argument would they have that it's not reflective of the real return? It might be the wrong form but you couldn't disprove the substance without the real return. It would put even more pressure on Romney. In the Bush case there was no holy grail such as a form. There was simply a dispute over fonts and typewriters over whether his commanding officer wrote certain derogatory memos. In the Romney case there isn't a dispute over whether or not there is a tax return. There is a return and only seeing the real unredacted return could disprove a false one.

In Bush's case the material in the letter was never disputed. Only the authenticity of the letter that Rather had.

I think the content of the letter was damning and accurate, the content (except briefly) was not the story.

Did he write it and was his opinion of Bush expressed in it one that he truly had?

His secretary backed up the content of the memos and recalled typing them but she couldn't verify whether the specific copy that Rather had was genuine. Unfortunately, Killian was the only person who could have verified the letter and the accuracy of the content and he was dead. The implication was that Killian never wrote it. In the case of the tax returns we're not dealing with a dead witness and the issue wouldn't be that the tax return never existed. The only rebuttal to the allegation of a fake return is the real one. In the case of Killian's letter, the right alleged it never existed and there was no need to show a real letter by Killian. In the case of a fake Romney return, the best evidence to prove it is a real return.

Just because we haven't figured out what angle they are going to use to diffuse the potential uproar when Romney releases his taxes; doesn't mean that they don't have a plan.

It might be prudent to expect a different plan.

to have existed at the time, undermining the document without having to produce their own.

However by exposing it ahead of time it will be much more difficult.

So the fake return shows zero taxes paid. Romney shows it's a fake form and says "but I did pay taxes". The issue is the content of the return. How does Romney rebut the substance of the fake return and the clamor for the real one? Any claim that the fake form is inaccurate requires production of the real return. He simply can't get round that.

So if someone produces a return showing Romney paid no taxes, with a fake form attached, it will show someone duped the media. It can't put the issue of Romney's taxes to rest as long as the real returns are out there. This isn't the same as the Killian case where a letter contrary to the Killian letter couldn't be produced because it was claimed it never existed. Frankly, I'd think Romney would want to avoid anything that brings up the issue of tax returns, even fake ones.

Some of the low-info voters might buy into it, but many people will likely be somewhat skeptical, especially us Dems and independents.
Rove can't quite weasel his way outta this, and even if enough people buy into it there's still plenty of other things Romney will need to explain.

Rove got lucky once with Dan Rather. He is not the diabolical genius some make him out to be.

In fact, the more you try to believe that, the more power you cede to him.

After Palin and now Romney, how can anyone think Rove is calling the shots?

He's taught them how to play dirty.

This is a new era. It's becoming more and more clear that the GOP is declining. At long last.

Not that any of us can afford to let our guards down!

easily fooled. I think the top people are VERY wary of something like this being sprung on them. Fool me once...

never take your eye off of the snake

But if you keep your eye on an impotent Karl Rove, someone else may be able to slip something in.

We should not let our guard down on any of them! But I think it's clear that no one is running the GOP today. Palin and Romney are not parts of some master plan. They are proof that the GOP is in decline.

Much smarter people.

What worked in the previous era won't work today.

where/how they will attack next. The problem is not the Dem campaign, but the willingness of the corporate media to use these distractions to control coverage and info.

The same thing happens with topics on DU: they are dominated and flooded by whatever current flap is going on.

Romney has really, really, fucked himself, and his party, over good these past few months......he can't win without the election being rigged.(I just disagree on ONE thing: Rove is a damn good schemer, sadly.)

Ron Paul, Michelle Bachman, Newt Gingrich, The Donald, Rick Santorum, etc.

le's face it. This year's crop ofm GOPig candidates weere not ready for prime time.

Even if the tax thing manages to work for them somehow, it won't be nearly enough. The independents(I hope) are often a lot more aware than the Repubs take them for, especially the left-leaning ones and most of the centrists.

does not constitute genius. Rove is a treasonous criminal.

All I could add is Rove is a treasonous criminal BASTARD.

sticking up for karl rove?

Yeah, right, I love me some Rove!

The GOP is dying before our very eyes. Don't give them power over us by seeing Rove as some kind of deity. He was never more than a schoolyard bully given power by another schoolyard bully.

We are winning the battle. As the Mayans predicted, 2012 is the end of the world -for Republicans!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=960037

They would have to find an outlet that is pretty gullible (not hard) and create a credible source for the documents. I'm guessing it will be alleged to be someone who was in the McCain campaign since they are one of the few known to have seen them.

Watch for things like obscure pages of forms that didn't exist in that year's returns, traced signatures, etc..

lee atwater



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater

This is still hard to see in print, but that's exactly what Lee Atwater said. So it's clear Rove was a star pupil in learning his lessons of hate-mongering from Atwater:

“You start out in 1954 by saying, ‘Nigger, nigger, nigger,’ ” said Atwater. “By 1968, you can’t say ‘nigger’ — that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff. You’re getting so abstract now [that] you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things, and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/25/opinion/25herbert.html?_r=2

and who still believe that the 1973 Rather memo was genuine, post repeatedly, insistently, and vociferously that the horrible looking returns are definitely genuine.

Step 2B. Some DUers point out possible red flags and express doubts about the veracity of the documents.

Step 2C. The DUers from step 2B are vehemently ridiculed and accused of "defending Romney" by the DUers from step 2A. Flamewars and PPRings ensue.

Remember Raymond Lemme? He was investigating the vote rigging and he ended up dead in a motel room he had already checked out of. Supposedly a suicide, and he left a note, in which he didn't say goodbye, I love you, or I'm sorry to his only daughter. How fortuitious for Bush and his boys, since Lemme had told a good friend that he was going to bust this investigation wide open and it was going to go all the way to the top.

Rove isn't a shithead. He's a fucking murderer, in my opinion.

Another "timely" death (murder?) was the mysterious plane crash
that killed Rove's IT guru Michael Connell. Shortly after Connell
was deposed in a lawsuit against Rove et al that alleged
vote flipping in the 2004 Ohio election, Connel died in a small plane crash.

bit long in the tooth.

I doubt that rove is a one trick pony and we have to be on our toes throughout this season...

Yes, Rove is indeed quite the scheming Bond villainish neer-do-well, but to be honest, if Romney had nothing to hide, I strongly suspect he would have released his unadulterated tax returns some weeks ago. That hasn't yet happened. That, and the fact that McCain admitted that the tax returns played a significant role in Romney's being passed over for the VP nomination......I just don't smell a conspiracy here(and, admittedly, I'm a bit of a conspiracy buff).

But when the horrible fake tax returns are revealed to be fake, everyone backs off and the issue goes away. He never needs to release the genuine returns. This is a perfectly plausible plan.

Being afraid gives them more power over us. We must stay on our toes but Rove doesn't have shit and Team Obama clearly has their act together.

It's a new era. The sun is setting on the GOP at long last.

or to use another metaphor, you can't go back to that well.

Only a complete idiot (even more than normal) would take the bait after what happened to Dan Rather. They may be fatuous talking heads, but they are fatuous talking heads with a keen survival instinct.

Won't happen.

The right wing rewards generously the ones that help them do an operation....yep some reporter gets embarrassed but he could still do will in some corporate structure.
If you have the money you can buy what you want...anything you want.

Where is Wikileaks when you need them. Get his tax returns and publish them, end of story.

When Romney ran for governor, he was behind in the polls, then he pulled a couple of lies out of his ass and spent huge amounts of money spreading those lies. The timing was more or less perfect -- it turned the tide for him and he won.

From Wikipedia: He rebounded with ads that accused O'Brien of being a failed watchdog for state pension fund losses in the stock market and that associated her husband, a former lobbyist, with the Enron scandal During the election he contributed over $6 million – a state record at the time – to the nearly $10 million raised for his campaign overall. Romney was elected governor on November 5, 2002, with 50 percent of the vote to O'Brien's 45 percent.

Just saying, Rove is like a poisonous snake in the grass. You can't stop worrying about him or what dirty tricks his demented mind has come up with. A really good lie -- a stinking rotton smear brilliantly presented -- timed perfectly with a couple hundred million dollars to spread the manure around the country, that COULD shake things up.

But I've got faith in the Obama team. They know what they're up against. Here's hoping the worst possible Karl Rove inspired nightmare scenario does not come true.

I don't know the exact specifics of how the Mass. election went, but no matter what Rove does, it will take far more than a tax trick to turn this election around.

No matter the case, the truth is, about the only way the GOP can win this year is with election theft. They did it in '00 and '04 and they'll try again this year, too. Otherwise, they're already done for, and only a massive series of screw-ups and/or extremely low turnout not seen in perhaps, ever, on the part of the Dems, will give them a chance to win legally.

It does sound plausible, I think rove is hanging out there because he don't what to do and he hates Mittens like every body else, and would probably have this election over sooner than later. Did I tell that I think everybody including dogs hate Mittens.

Rove would hate sitting this one out, but let us face it. He really don't play three level chess too well.

Folks from the other side liked Bush and even Palin. Did I tell you, I think they hate Mittens.

. . . and something that has concerned me is, what if there's absolutely nothing wrong with "W"illards tax returns. That would look bad for us. I so hope I'm just a tad paranoid.

Romney knew ten years ago that he would be running for president, so why wouldn't he make sure his tax returns were all squeaky clean, knowing that someday he would be asked to lay them on the table? That makes sense to me and to you. But what we've seen of Romney demonstrates that his arrogance is in a class all it's own. And if there is one true God that Romney worships, that is money. Given Romney's mental make-up, I finally came to the conclusion that he's just figured all along that he push himself off on the American people as the God he believes himself to be, and all would lay down before him. He seems very confused that people are actually disagreeing with him and pointing out his lies -- nobody has ever done that before. I think there's absolute disaster for Romney in those tax returns, if there are any tax returns that is. That's my take.

Is that the McCain campaign took a look at Romney's taxes. And they vetted him, partly thanks to that. Something is definitely amiss.

Claim that anything resembling a fake 2009 income tax return will be tantamount to falsifying government records.

If Romney, by way of Rove, produces a fake document, wouldn't that prompt the IRS to conduct an investigation? Memos are one thing, but government documents are quite another.

Not sure even Turdblossom can pull off something that slick. I sure would like to see him try, get caught, and go to jail, though.

In fact, I refrained posting this when I thought of it simply so I wouldn't worry that one of Rmoney's people got inspired from anything I said - yeah, I can be paranoid!

You would have to Pony up $10,000

I don't trust the Media. They're bought, lock-stock-and-barrel.


Do you know about Operation Northwoods? You should.

released by Romney.

It is quite likely that someone has seen the or a tax return. What we want is Romney's tax returns -- at least 10 years of them.

This might indeed work on some of the low-information voters, though......on the other hand, I don't expect a majority of Independents to buy Rove's story, and will at least by skeptical of anything he claims.

And yes, what we want are the REAL tax returns going back to at least a decade or so......nothing scrubbed or sanitized. We want the ORIGINAL documents, as they were originally filed, and we need to demand that.

tax returns that leave out the sources of some of his income or some other vital information.

Rove is really sublime at his craft.

What I expect is a little different from yours: Rove will release the true factual tax return and then claim it's fake.

Which is why we do need to be vigilant.

Too many will fall for the stunt as they did with bu$h and with Palin.

IT WILL BE EFFECTIVE ENOUGH TO CLOSE THE CASE!

It is reality, their dirty tricks work.

A perfect description of the minds and deceptions they use to lead the herds astray.

They are the ones who would be the scapegoats....although it will be to everyone's detriment.

I think this will backfire big.

GOTV!

Tennessee lawmaker says Obama may stage fake assassination Because of
posters like you, scheming daemons, the Tea Party starts making stuff up. What is good for the goose is good for the gander!!!

Oh, I liked your post and learned from it. I feel Tennessee state Rep. Kelly Keisling
should be investigated for his input ...

neck.Twitter, Facebook etc are now the "new" news media. These and other social media sites break news more than the MSM. We are all watching out for Karl's shit unlike in 2004 we didn't have this social media. Karl is devious but now we know he devious and we are really to pounce if he tries his conniving tricks. Basically he's been pegged for the weasel he is. Do you see the rmoney campaign using him? No, he is damaged goods but still a useful tool with his pacs. Fortunately the IRS is starting to took a look at his "social welfare" pacs. Maybe Karl will blow up before the election. We can only hope.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021055704#post13

I don't think this is the case, but we might do well to consider it as a possibility so we might be prepared in case.

If Romney had this information leaked, he might have considered the following scenario:

1. With the leak, the demands for him to release his returns increase dramatically.

2. Since he can no longer ignore the demands, he releases returns which may look bad but not half as bad as the leak suggested they would.

3. When the facts are seen to be more positive than those projected, Romney has somewhat inoculated himself on this issue and the case of the returns can be overcome in several news cycles.

And maybe they already have!

A "Bain insider" whispers in Harry Reid's ear about Mitt not paying ANY taxes for 10 years.

Harry thinks he's tapped a gold mine and shares this with the world.

(Or if you are a cynic, you may believe Reid is doing this on purpose for a fellow Mormon millionaire because Reid still wants to win the election, but not at the expense of skewed tax loopholes that he also uses)

Either way....it might work out with Mittens showing that it he HAS paid taxes during that whole time, and even if it is 15% and he lied about being the Chief Officer etc....the whole Bain story dies.

Even when there is no specific source, or any "damaging story" to be discredited.

Screaming bloody murder is step 1, then it's on to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Step back to look at the candidacy of Romney, period.

Nobody likes him, not even Republicans.
He's a terrible candidate.
That should be it, period, end of discussion.

But when anyone criticizes anything he's done, or second-guesses his viability as a
candidate at all, what comes back is that tsunami of PR and BS about "the failed
Presidency of Ba......and..... yadda, yadda, yadda ...... jobs, .... the economy...
and... jobs."

It's not just a tactic, it's what their whole strategy is based on.

If he doesn't IMMEDIATELY SUE or otherwise seek investigation and prosecution of the "leaker"..... smell a rat.

He's the kind of guy who should be locked up.

after the rather thing and given the very very confidential nature of tax returns i doubt seriously that any msm outlet or known liberal blogger would touch any Romney tax return that didn't come from romney.

I hope Rachel reads DU and brings up this subject on her show. We have to get the media talking about a possible Rove ploy. If the media get on it now, Rove won't be able to carry out that maneuver. The tax returns issue and Bain are both hurting Romney. We have to make sure both stories continue to be addressed.

Stephanie Miller