Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

orangecrush

(19,236 posts)
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:17 PM May 2018

Robert Mueller's team just had a really rough day in court

Judge Ellis suggested Mueller’s team just wants Trump’s impeachment


When Manafort’s team made this same argument in court in DC, the presiding judge, Amy Berman Jackson, seemed skeptical. (She hasn’t yet ruled on the motion, though she did dismiss an accompanying civil suit filed by Manafort.)

But Manafort may have found a more receptive audience with Judge Ellis, in Virginia, a 77-year-old Ronald Reagan appointee.


“I don’t see what relation this indictment has with what the special counsel is authorized to investigate,” Ellis said, according to Politico’s Josh Gerstein. “What you really care about is what information Mr. Manafort could give you that would reflect on Mr. Trump or lead to his prosecution or impeachment.”

Though Ellis didn’t issue a ruling, Brandi Buchman of Courthouse News reports that he asked to review an unredacted copy of a memo from last August, in which Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein authorized Mueller to investigate crimes related to Manafort’s Ukraine work. Mueller’s team revealed the memo’s existence in court filings, but the vast majority of it is redacted.

If Ellis does in fact end up dismissing Manafort’s Virginia indictment (and, for what it’s worth, many smart court reporters are skeptical that he ultimately will), it wouldn’t get Manafort completely out of the woods, as he’d still face charges in Washington. But it would be a dramatic defeat for Mueller, with major implications for his strategy as a whole — which, it seems, has relied heavily on bringing or threatening unrelated charges against Trump associates to try to get them to “flip.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/2018/5/4/17319554/manafort-hearing-robert-mueller-judge-ellis


My question - does this Judge have a right to impugn the integrity of a prosecutor?

Openly injecting politics into a legal proceding?

Having a serious WTF moment here.

61 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Robert Mueller's team just had a really rough day in court (Original Post) orangecrush May 2018 OP
Horrifying and disgusting manor321 May 2018 #1
Reagan appointee Eliot Rosewater May 2018 #2
Totally explains it orangecrush May 2018 #25
Figures... no doubt the judge is a political hack. InAbLuEsTaTe May 2018 #41
No shock there!! Fuck that asshole judge!! InAbLuEsTaTe Jun 2018 #56
I hate to break the news to you jberryhill Jun 2018 #60
Nonsense. Read some of the other threads at DU...judges do hard questions all the time. Why do folks Fred Sanders May 2018 #15
Sounds like a Trump lover to me. triron May 2018 #24
a Reagan fossil. orangecrush May 2018 #26
Except he just issued his decision and denied Manafort's motion jberryhill Jun 2018 #46
So is he not an asshole anymore? LenaBaby61 Jun 2018 #53
If the judge honestly reviews Rosenstein's memo about scope, he won't dismiss Manafort's indictment emulatorloo May 2018 #3
"honestly reviews" that's the caveat with this Reagan appointee. arthritisR_US May 2018 #6
I agree. ON EDIT: apparently this judge has a history of being harder of side he rules in favor of emulatorloo May 2018 #9
Than you orangecrush May 2018 #27
I'm no lawyer genxlib May 2018 #4
in theory it is a good defense dsc May 2018 #10
I get that genxlib May 2018 #19
Good questions orangecrush May 2018 #28
Fruit of the poisonous tree...it's a valid tactic. AncientGeezer May 2018 #18
See my question to dsc at #10 genxlib May 2018 #20
1 word..."Scope" AncientGeezer May 2018 #22
yes its time the rubber hits the road Backwoodsrider May 2018 #5
Precisely orangecrush May 2018 #29
Relax. Loki Liesmith May 2018 #7
I hope so orangecrush May 2018 #30
Reaganites do not love Trump Loki Liesmith May 2018 #45
Another politician in a robe following gis orders Fullduplexxx May 2018 #8
Then why did he rule against Manafort today? jberryhill Jun 2018 #47
Were you just waiting for this ? Fullduplexxx Jun 2018 #48
Sort of like wondering if there is going to be sunrise tomorrow, but, yep jberryhill Jun 2018 #49
Im willing to concede that i could have been wrong . Fullduplexxx Jun 2018 #50
Ah, well, a lawyer with a radio show jberryhill Jun 2018 #51
He is a lawyer licensed in california . Passed the bar 30 years ago Fullduplexxx Jun 2018 #59
Someone in a different thread RockRaven May 2018 #11
Can't he carve it out like he did with Cohen and refer it to another court? Laura PourMeADrink May 2018 #12
A judge can turn back prosecutorial overreach marylandblue May 2018 #13
Good to know. orangecrush May 2018 #32
Ellis is the fellow who dismissed Khalid El-Masri's suit: struggle4progress May 2018 #14
How is this a rough day? Mueller isn't untouchable and his team will have tough questions... NCTraveler May 2018 #16
Thanks to everybody who knows more about how these things work than me! I was very upset when I Kirk Lover May 2018 #17
Gosh - I can see how the judge could rule that way.... kmla May 2018 #21
ONLY if that sitting president is Ferrets are Cool May 2018 #23
Truth! orangecrush May 2018 #34
Not sure the legal principle here. Girard442 May 2018 #31
You are correct RandySF May 2018 #35
He can make a referral to the DOJ for stuff out of scope jberryhill May 2018 #42
Stop me if I'm wrong RandySF May 2018 #33
I hope so orangecrush May 2018 #36
These tweets were posted on another thread Gothmog May 2018 #37
My thoughts are now shaped orangecrush May 2018 #43
The tweets and predictions were proven correct Gothmog Jun 2018 #55
History says... genxlib May 2018 #38
From my twitter feed Gothmog May 2018 #39
He sounds like a real RW tool. SHRED May 2018 #40
Yup orangecrush May 2018 #44
Nope. He's known for being toughest on the side he rules for. The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2018 #52
Judge rejects Manafort's challenge to Mueller's legitimacy Gothmog Jun 2018 #54
Makes this so much better jberryhill Jun 2018 #58
One thing I learned years ago about judges The Velveteen Ocelot Jun 2018 #57
Thanks. orangecrush Jun 2018 #61
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
60. I hate to break the news to you
Wed Jun 27, 2018, 07:18 AM
Jun 2018

But this thread is from a few weeks ago.

That "asshole judge" just denied Manafort's motion yesterday.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
15. Nonsense. Read some of the other threads at DU...judges do hard questions all the time. Why do folks
Fri May 4, 2018, 02:03 PM
May 2018

think they have the legal expertise to be flame throwing critics on the actual experts?

l

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
46. Except he just issued his decision and denied Manafort's motion
Tue Jun 26, 2018, 05:30 PM
Jun 2018

So is he not an asshole anymore?

LenaBaby61

(6,965 posts)
53. So is he not an asshole anymore?
Tue Jun 26, 2018, 06:00 PM
Jun 2018

He will be in 3, 2, 1 to tRump who was singing his praises on May 5th.

Looks like fatso-in-chief cannot pardon ManFART'S state crimes if he's found guilty of any. And there are MANY crimes he's allegedly guilty OF.

emulatorloo

(43,979 posts)
3. If the judge honestly reviews Rosenstein's memo about scope, he won't dismiss Manafort's indictment
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:21 PM
May 2018

Because Manafort’s antics in Ukraine were part of the scope of the investigation.

BTW does the judge seriously think Manafort should be able to get away with bank fraud?

emulatorloo

(43,979 posts)
9. I agree. ON EDIT: apparently this judge has a history of being harder of side he rules in favor of
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:28 PM
May 2018
https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142052470#post15

“In fact, a courthouse observer told me that this judge is often hardest in court on the side he rules in favor of. ”

genxlib

(5,506 posts)
4. I'm no lawyer
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:22 PM
May 2018

But it seems to me that the "you-weren't-supposed-to-look-there" is a poor defense once some wrong doing is found.

dsc

(52,129 posts)
10. in theory it is a good defense
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:28 PM
May 2018

Special prosecutors are literally all powerful in that there is no budget, no other cases competing for time or other resources, in short no break on them at all. The one break they have on them is that their purview is supposed to be limited and strictly set out. I think the Manifort indictment fits that limit but there needs to be a limit.

genxlib

(5,506 posts)
19. I get that
Fri May 4, 2018, 02:16 PM
May 2018

But I don't see how this could be considered out of bounds to at least look at.

For all we know, those bank records could have included payments to Gucifer himself. We do know that they include financial ties to some of the very same people who could be involved in the conspiracy. So there seems to be firm standing to at least look at them.

Having looked, would it then be the responsibility of the Special Prosecutor to ignore other financial crimes that came to light? Even if they weren't directly linked?

Backwoodsrider

(764 posts)
5. yes its time the rubber hits the road
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:25 PM
May 2018

We might be getting a chance to see how much Trump and his backers have influence over the judicial branch. Is the judicial branch really going to be able to use the rule of law and save the US or is Russian mafia going to tear our democracy down and replace the world government with authoritarian rule?

stay tuned

Fullduplexxx

(7,818 posts)
8. Another politician in a robe following gis orders
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:27 PM
May 2018

If dems take congress maybe they should think about eliminating courts with republican judges

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
49. Sort of like wondering if there is going to be sunrise tomorrow, but, yep
Tue Jun 26, 2018, 05:45 PM
Jun 2018

Because the briefs were pretty clear on which one had the winning argument. The hearing, as many motion hearings are, was pretty much for shits and giggles. But, hey, due process includes the opportunity to be heard.

People shouldn't freak out so much over what goes on at oral argument.

Fullduplexxx

(7,818 posts)
50. Im willing to concede that i could have been wrong .
Tue Jun 26, 2018, 05:50 PM
Jun 2018

Actually i was listening to norman goldman later that day, he is a lawyer in california who does a radio show, and he said basically the same thing in that what the judge said was really not a big deal

Fullduplexxx

(7,818 posts)
59. He is a lawyer licensed in california . Passed the bar 30 years ago
Tue Jun 26, 2018, 06:50 PM
Jun 2018

Goldman was the plaintiff's attorney in Krumme vs. Mercury, a 2002 lawsuit in California. Both the trial court and the California Court of Appeal found for the plaintiffs that the insurance companies were mislabelling agents as independent brokers. The court upheld damages and attorney's fees.[7] An insurance industry journal has described the case as "infamous".[8] Goldman also represented plaintiffs in a lawsuit filed in San Francisco Superior Court against Auto Insurance Specialists accusing the company of paying sales money to an insurer in exchange for commissions.[9].

Ive been listening to him for ten years . He does a show on civics law and politics . I dont know who you are

RockRaven

(14,782 posts)
11. Someone in a different thread
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:30 PM
May 2018

said this judge has a reputation for being hardest on the side he's leaning towards ruling in favor of. I don't know.

But even if the judge decides it is outside of Mueller's mandate, Manafort wouldn't walk on these charges, I don't think. The US Attorney's office in that jurisdiction could file the same charges based on the same evidence. The entire motion is just a delaying tactic, no?

marylandblue

(12,344 posts)
13. A judge can turn back prosecutorial overreach
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:34 PM
May 2018

So, yes the judge does have a right to do this. But even if Mueller loses here, I don't see it as a major defeat. Another DOJ prosecutor can still bring the case, and Mueller can still charge Manafort with campaign-related crimes.

struggle4progress

(118,032 posts)
14. Ellis is the fellow who dismissed Khalid El-Masri's suit:
Fri May 4, 2018, 01:41 PM
May 2018

Khalid El-Masri .. was .. abducted by .. Macedonian police in 2003, and handed over to the .. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). While in CIA custody, he was flown to Afghanistan, where he was held at a black site and routinely interrogated, beaten, strip-searched, sodomized, and subjected to other .. degrading treatment ... After El-Masri held hunger strikes, and was detained for four months in the "Salt Pit," the CIA finally admitted his arrest and torture were a mistake and released him ... at night on a desolate road in Albania, without an apology or funds to return home ... On May 18, 2006, U.S. Federal District Judge T.S. Ellis, III dismissed a lawsuit El-Masri filed against the CIA and three private companies allegedly involved with his transport, based on the government's position that it would "present a grave risk of injury to national security" ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_El-Masri

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
16. How is this a rough day? Mueller isn't untouchable and his team will have tough questions...
Fri May 4, 2018, 02:07 PM
May 2018

to answer along the way.

Amazing how something like this can get turned into such encompassing questions by spectators.

 

Kirk Lover

(3,608 posts)
17. Thanks to everybody who knows more about how these things work than me! I was very upset when I
Fri May 4, 2018, 02:10 PM
May 2018

read about this this morning....and now I am not.

kmla

(4,047 posts)
21. Gosh - I can see how the judge could rule that way....
Fri May 4, 2018, 02:42 PM
May 2018

...since there is no mention or evidence of consensual oral sex anywhere in the investigation parameters.

As everyone knows - THAT is what cements an entire investigation of a sitting president, and forces the senate to start impeachment procedures...

Girard442

(6,059 posts)
31. Not sure the legal principle here.
Fri May 4, 2018, 04:11 PM
May 2018

If Mueller, tasked with investigating Manafort's Ukranian/Trump related activities, finds substantial evidence that Manafort dismembered his cleaning person and put his/her remains down a garbage disposal, doesn't somebody have to pursue that?

RandySF

(57,604 posts)
35. You are correct
Fri May 4, 2018, 04:14 PM
May 2018

The mandate allows Mueller to go after anything he finds along the way. He could have even gone after Cohen’s Stormy dealings.

RandySF

(57,604 posts)
33. Stop me if I'm wrong
Fri May 4, 2018, 04:11 PM
May 2018

But it sounds like this hearing is over one of several indictments. If I’m right, then Manafort is still in a world of hurt.

orangecrush

(19,236 posts)
36. I hope so
Fri May 4, 2018, 04:15 PM
May 2018

When I saw the judge was a ""Reagan appointee, my heart sank.

But other posters say this is not the end of the line for Mueller.

orangecrush

(19,236 posts)
43. My thoughts are now shaped
Fri May 4, 2018, 04:32 PM
May 2018

by skepticism.

It is the tactic of the Putin coup to throw out so much disinformation (the lie that DOJ leaked the "Mueller questions" that were actually made up by the white house, and the false report that Cohen's phone was "wiretapped", (it was actually just monitoring numbers of calls), which Giuliani once again blamed on a non existent DOJ "leak".

When something seemingly breaks, I now wait 24 hours to see if it turns out to be disinformation.

The coup disinfo campaign is in high gear at this point.

genxlib

(5,506 posts)
38. History says...
Fri May 4, 2018, 04:21 PM
May 2018

If the Clinton investigation can start with a land deal and end up with a blow-job then piss on anybody that says the scope of this investigation needs to be limited.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,267 posts)
52. Nope. He's known for being toughest on the side he rules for.
Tue Jun 26, 2018, 05:54 PM
Jun 2018

And he denied Manafort's motion. Is he still a RW tool?

Gothmog

(143,998 posts)
54. Judge rejects Manafort's challenge to Mueller's legitimacy
Tue Jun 26, 2018, 06:09 PM
Jun 2018

Yeah https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/26/judge-rejects-challenge-676814

A federal judge on Tuesday rejected former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort's challenge to the authority of special counsel Robert Mueller.

The ruling from U.S. District Court Judge T.S. Ellis III dashes the hopes of many allies of President Donald Trump's that Ellis would deliver a crippling blow to Mueller's office and undermine the legal legitimacy of his appointment....

Ellis's 31-page written opinion is rife with skepticism about the special counsel mechanism and about Mueller's pursuit of fraud charges against Manafort. But the judge ultimately concluded that Manafort's attorneys had not made a sufficient legal case to justify tossing out his indictment.

"The Special Counsel’s appointment was consistent with both constitutional requirements regarding appointment of officers and statutory requirements governing the authority to conduct criminal litigation on behalf of the United States, the Special Counsel had legal authority to investigate and to prosecute this matter and dismissal of the Superseding Indictment is not warranted," the Reagan appointee wrote
.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,267 posts)
57. One thing I learned years ago about judges
Tue Jun 26, 2018, 06:18 PM
Jun 2018

is that their questions often do not reflect how they eventually rule. More often than not they are just testing the strength of your argument. Many years ago I was a law clerk for an appellate court, and it was always interesting to compare the judges' questions with their eventual rulings. They poke around for weak points, and sometimes I suspected they were just fucking with a lawyer a little bit. But questions at oral argument were not good predictors of final decisions, nor were they often even reflective of a judge's ideology.

There's a bit too much knee-jerking around here lately, IMO.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Robert Mueller's team jus...