An Observation About White People and Wypipo

[EffieBlack]

There’s been quite the kerfuffle here the last couple of days involving discussions of the word “Wypipo” with some white DUers getting very upset with the notion of using any race-identifying term to describe the behaviors of any subset of white people.

This is not the first time I’ve seen reactions like this from some whites - not just to such terms as “Wypipo” but to ANY reference to their race. One sure way to get a reaction on DU is to post anything that includes the term “white people.” As sure as day follows night, several white folk will strenuously object and we’ll see responses that have become so common, they have their own hashtags, such as #notallwhitepeople.

Yet, by the same token white folk seem to have no trouble at all identifying other racial groups and other demographics by their identifying characteristics - African-Americans, women, LGBQT, Muslims, etc. - and they do so frequently and without any self-consciousness or shame (often the very same post in which they complain about being referred to as “white”).

I’ve long been fascinated by this dynamic, so I used to conduct an experiment with my law students on the first day of class. I’d casually ask all of the black students to raise their hands. Without hesitation, the black students all raised their hands. And, invariably, the white students would turn toward the black students, anticipating that they WOULD raise their hands.

Then I’d ask all of the white students to raise their hands. But, instead of raising their hands, most of them just sat there and stared at me like I’d lost my damned mind. When I pressed them - “C’mon - raise your hands!” - a couple of them would do it grudgingly, but the others still didn’t want to and got very agitated, asking why THEY were being singled out by race. “Why are you asking. What does are race have to do with anything?”

They also frequently turned toward their black classmates and either tacitly or sometimes outright asked them to say something about how wrong this was (“Aren’t you gong t say anything?” “This is so wrong. Why aren’t you saying anything?”).

This led to some very interesting discussions. For example, the black students asked their white classmates why they didn't object when I first singled them out - not only did they not object, but they fully expected the black students to identify themselves - yet the white students expected the black students to defend them when it was THEIR turn in the barrel.

When I asked the black students why they complied so quickly, they usually just shrugged and said it was no big deal. They often noted that they were so used to being seen and identified as black, they thought nothing of it. And since I hadn’t said anything derogatory or suggested that I was going to treat them any differently or worse just because they were black, they weren’t concerned.

On the other hand, the white students said it made them very uncomfortable. The most common response was along the lines of, “I don’t think of myself as a white person. I’m just a person.” One student said she was afraid that, because I was black, my noticing they were white and saying it out loud meant that I planned to discriminate against them in favor of the black students.

I used this to help demonstrate how minorities are so accustomed to being identified as subgroups, to be singled out as minorities, while white people saw themselves, not as a group, but as just people and really resented being identified by their race. It also showed how minorities tend not to immediately assume that racial identifications include an inherent racial bias or judgment - without more, they see it as simply a description (“That white lady over there said the store closes at 5”), while whites tend to assume any racial identification is per se discriminatory - at least when applied to them.

That helps to explain why some white acquaintances get very uncomfortable when I say, for example, “I’ll meet you in the cafe at 3. I’m black and will be wearing a beige coat.” They’re ok with the coat, but don’t want me to think they’ll notice that I’m black - even though that’s the most logical way to spot me in restaurant filled with mostly white people - because they think that means they’re “being racist.”

So, I think the upset about “Wypipo” stems largely from a real discomfort, not just with a subset of white folk being poked fun at for certain behaviors that invite ridicule, but from the larger and deeper unease that many white people have at being identified as “white” at all, i.e., something other than just “people.”

[pangaia]

1. WOW.. Brilliant teaching moment.......

For me, too -a great reminder.

I'm a Wipipo.




Thanks..

[Hortensis]

45. :) I've learned the "kerfuffle" was apparently

in danger of going out. Here's a contribution hopefully some will find worth reading:

My dear,

If you wanna fly, you got to give up the shit that weighs you down.

You can’t fly with regrets of yesterdays on your wings.

You can’t fly if you’re still in love with that ex that’s bad for you. Give that shit up!

You can’t fly if you’re afraid of standing up and taking power. Give that shit up!

You can’t fly if you’re spending the time you should be using to fly on other less important things. Give that shit up!

Focus on flying, if you wanna to fly. Because if you really wanna fly, nothing should be able to stop you. And if you’re not flying, realize something is. And lose that shit!

Falsely yours,

Chloe Anthony Wofford (aka Toni Morrison)

[pazzyanne]

85. K & R

[azureblue]

83. not so

What is the first mistake he made? Classifying his students as either black or white. Excuse effin me? What about the Asians? The Indians? The Italians? Mexicans? French? He makes a huge racial mistake right off the bat. The hesitation was more likely because the "White Students" were thinking along the lines of, "wait a minute - I'm part (Japanese, Italian / French / Spanish / Russian / Jewish / Armenian / Tibetan), so where do I fit in this guy's racial stereotyping?" He throws all white people into the same bucket and thinks that it is fine to call them "wipopo". Effie and assumes that white people get offended ("several white folk will strenuously object" ) because he calls them white. Nope. This is as racist as "all black people". There is no black monolith, just as there is no white monolith.

In my family history there is black blood. In a lot of "black family histories, there is "white" blood. I will remind effie of the long buried "one drop" rule - one drop of African blood and you were once classifies as "colored" By that token, I would be "colored". So where is that bright line of demarcation that puts us into specific racial categories?

Wipopo is as offensive as n--- (even when it is spelled with an h), because the word lumps all people with "white" skin (what about us Italians / Sicilians with olive colored skin, or Indians with skin as dark as Africans?), into a single racial group. By the same token, - if anyone can remember Lenny Bruce's skit on racial insults - Kike, Spic, Wop, Hebe, etc., are all racist words. Don't use them, even though some races will use them themselves. And wipopo may be cute and "in" but it is still a racial insult..

[EffieBlack]

89. I'm a "she," not a "he" - speaking of classifications...

And if you think - much less write and hit "enter" - that anything is comparable to "bigger," you don't need to be discussing race with anyone until you educate yourself much more.

[brush]

175. Exactly.

[BumRushDaShow]

128. Here is the problem that you have pointed out in your exasperation

What is the first mistake he made? Classifying his students as either black or white. Excuse effin me? What about the Asians? The Indians? The Italians? Mexicans? French? He makes a huge racial mistake right off the bat. The hesitation was more likely because the "White Students" were thinking along the lines of, "wait a minute - I'm part (Japanese, Italian / French / Spanish / Russian / Jewish / Armenian / Tibetan), so where do I fit in this guy's racial stereotyping?" He throws all white people into the same bucket and thinks that it is fine to call them "wipopo". Effie and assumes that white people get offended ("several white folk will strenuously object" ) because he calls them white. Nope. This is as racist as "all black people". There is no black monolith, just as there is no white monolith.

"Race" and "racial classification" is an artificial construct that was, in its modern form, manufactured by a series of European anthropologists, who in turn influenced European biologists to then carry out hundreds of "studies" in order to declare such nonsense as "scientifically valid".

In its manifestation here in the United States, it was then fine-tuned into a complex and convoluted set of criteria, rules, and laws, that were constantly in flux and in conflict, but were nonetheless crafted to justify maintaining superiority of one group over another, while generally uniting the constantly warring European nationalities/ethnic groups (in order to cobble together a "majority" population). So countries and their people* (*with exceptions) were basically lumped into "caucasoid, negroid, mongoloid" (white, black, yellow), with an occassional reference to "red" and "brown" when Europeans "discovered" people who were here before they were.

In the confusing system of racial classification when it comes to racism/white supremacy, "ethnicity" took a back seat to "what you looked like". And then this is where it got interesting... which is what you note below -

In my family history there is black blood. In a lot of "black family histories, there is "white" blood. I will remind effie of the long buried "one drop" rule - one drop of African blood and you were once classifies as "colored" By that token, I would be "colored". So where is that bright line of demarcation that puts us into specific racial categories?

"Colored" was a legal term used in South Africa and was a label for African-descendants here in the U.S. before the term "negro" was popularized, later replaced by a myriad of (non-color) terms such as "Afro-American" and then "African American". So if your "one drop" was say Japanese, then you were NOT "colored". And depending on how you looked, you would most likely be classified as "white" (i.e., the bizarre practice of the lighter the race admixture, the closer to white you might be allowed to be).

And note that when you mention the "one drop rule", that only comes in play IF your ancestor is "discovered" to have been of a different race. Otherwise you could pass as white, as millions have done. There are studies being done now on people who have had genetic testing done to determine their ancestry based on comparison to genes from various areas around the world, and this has caused all sorts of upheaval -

They considered themselves white, but DNA tests told a more complex story

By Tara Bahrampour February 6

As more Americans take advantage of genetic testing to pinpoint the makeup of their DNA, the technology is coming head to head with the country’s deep-rooted obsession with race and racial myths. This is perhaps no more true than for the growing number of self-identified European Americans who learn they are actually part African. For those who are surprised by their genetic heritage, the new information can often set into motion a complicated recalibration of how they view their identity.

<...>

But when the mixing happened several generations back, it can take people by surprise. While little data exists comparing people’s perceptions with the reality of their ethnic makeup, a 2014 study of 23andMe customers found that around 5,200, or roughly 3.5 percent, of 148,789 self-identified European Americans had 1 percent or more African ancestry, meaning they had a probable black ancestor going back about six generations or less.

The discovery elicits a range of emotions. Given the fraught history of slavery and racism, finding out that one is part African makes some people feel vulnerable, even defensive, while others celebrate the discovery. At the DNA Discussion Project, an initiative at West Chester University in Pennsylvania that surveys people about their perceptions of their genetic makeup before and after DNA tests, 80 percent of the 3,000-odd people they have surveyed self-identify as white. Of those, two-thirds see themselves as of only one race, and they are more likely to be shocked and unhappy with unexpected African ancestry than those who identify as mixed or other races, according to a peer-reviewed paper conducted by the project.

But for some, white identity trumps DNA. If the test result is too disruptive to their sense of self, they may rationalize it away. One white supremacist who discovered he had African DNA claimed on the white nationalist website Stormfront.com that the testing company was part of a Jewish conspiracy to “defame, confuse and deracinate young whites on a mass level.” Members of white nationalist groups have advised those who discover non-Aryan heritage to rely more on genealogy or the “mirror test,” as quoted in a sociological study of Stormfront members discussing ancestry-test results. (“When you look in the mirror, do you see a jew? If not, you’re good,” one commenter wrote.)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/they-considered-themselves-white-but-dna-tests-told-a-more-complex-story/2018/02/06/16215d1a-e181-11e7-8679-a9728984779c_story.html?utm_term=.239a0a4ea193

The whole case of Plessy v Ferguson was a test of what constituted "how much was too much" and in Homer Plessy's case, just 1 great-grandparent out of all of his ancestors, was "too much".

These things were ridiculous but they were codified in the law and enforced by the courts. That case wasn't 300 years ago. It was 122 years ago this month. The whole issue of "race" is a psychological AND legal landmine, but those who are impacted the most by it had to learn, literally from birth, all the nuances and twisted "rules" of it or they could be found swinging from a tree. And this "knowledge" had to be passed on from generation to generation to generation through to today, where it is STILL being passed on to the next generation for survival.

Wipopo is as offensive as n--- (even when it is spelled with an h), because the word lumps all people with "white" skin (what about us Italians / Sicilians with olive colored skin, or Indians with skin as dark as Africans?), into a single racial group. By the same token, - if anyone can remember Lenny Bruce's skit on racial insults - Kike, Spic, Wop, Hebe, etc., are all racist words. Don't use them, even though some races will use them themselves. And wipopo may be cute and "in" but it is still a racial insult..

What you are now bringing up regarding the "hues" of certain Europeans is entirely valid. THAT was part of the internecine relationships between and among European ethnic groups, which is really no different than the same between ethnic groups on other continents (i.e., Africa and Asia). But I have always written that "race" is the OVERLAY on top of the ethnic, and that is what must be understood here in the U.S.

At this point in history, it is uniquely a U.S.-thing and it has been enforced and culturally woven and ingrained into this society via school curricula and our cultural mass media institutions. It was reinforced in business advertisements and product branding. We saw a transition such as the below -



but why is she there in the first place? The name and product line continues to invoke all sorts of racial stereotypes and baggage that go back a century or more.

And regarding this word - you need to think for a moment whether the word is used to oppress and whether the user has any power to enforce that oppression. IMHO, this word was manufactured to make a point. The slurs that you describe from Lenny Bruce were terms that were coined and used by the white power structure to enforce both ethnic superiority and racial superiority.

African descendants didn't make up the words "kike" or "spic" or "wop" (without passport as my mother always used to tell me). These were manufactured by the Euro-descended power structure who had all intention of remaining in power.

[populistdriven]

197. my dog has egg farts

[WhiskeyGrinder]

2. K&R. Perfect.

[mythology]

3. The only ridicule should be for people who use inane slang like wypipo

It just makes the person using it look childish. It's not worth getting offended over because the people using it aren't worth that much effort.

[EffieBlack]

4. Whoosh!

[paleotn]

29. Ha!

Love that! Whoosh!

[Roy Rolling]

71. Here's one problem

Is this a word that only black people have license to say? A word derived from someone's inability to enunciate a word is indeed slang. I suspect if Donald Trump used the term wypipo he would rightly be criticized for demeaning speech uses by African-Americans.

Until your post a few days back I didn't know what the word meant. Now I do. Speculations of the motivations for white people who don't understand or agree with the term creates a straw man. Relating a sociology experiment with students in a law classroom, and using those observations to create theories on race relations is not scientific.

Using the term in a legal document would bring similar confusion on its meaning, because it is slang and term that if used by some, would be an example of someone demeaning a black person's speech.

[EffieBlack]

97. DU isn't a legal document ... we say lots of things here that have no legal import

[brer cat]

107. Oh, my word!

"A word derived from someone's inability to enunciate a word..." That, Roy, is a truly astounding statement.

I am sure that the level of discourse on this forum would be greatly enhanced if our observations must rise to the level of scientific proof. Perhaps we could have Skinner empanel a Dissertation Committee to review our thought experiments and theories prior to posting. And certainly we must assure that every poster use no slang or terms that cannot appear in legal documents, since surely every post on DU is a lawsuit waiting to happen; although in my experience, attorneys derive much business from "confusion on ... meaning." I seem to recall much ado once over the meaning of "is."

Finally, you seem very concerned that use of wypipo might be demeaning to black folks. Do you think it might be a wee bit of whitesplaining to tell the people who coined the word how it reflects on them? Or perhaps some white fragility is showing up in attempts to shut down its use?

[sheshe2]

176. Boom

Finally, you seem very concerned that use of wypipo might be demeaning to black folks. Do you think it might be a wee bit of whitesplaining to tell the people who coined the word how it reflects on them? Or perhaps some white fragility is showing up in attempts to shut down its use?

brer.

[Plucketeer]

115. I'm with you

THIS thread is the first time I've ever seen or heard of this "descriptor" "slur" "slang" term. Assuming it was some sorta shorthand, I mentally mouthed if a few times before it's meaning appeared to me - Wipipo - of course. I get it. Another category in which we can register folks of a certain skin tone! Just what we need to help us blend into one human community. Christ almighty! WHEN are all Americans of southern heritage going to move to SOUTH AMERICA??? Isn't that where they rightfully belong?

My Whitey-American ass has been saying for YEARS that we need to STOP using the "qualifier" prefixes to identify one another or ourselves. My paternal grandfather passed his immigration-mangled last name to my dad and onto me. But I don't go around making sure everyone qualifies me as a Bulgarian-American. Truth told, disregarding my last name, I should be qualified as a Euro-American, since FOUR distinct nationalities collaborated to my genetic mix.

The "racial" shit we endure to this very day, has it's deeper roots in the ignorance of times when folks learned ALL they knew of the world from common lore. That lore, a whispered, subterranean legacy of superiority that's been long-proven to be as bogus as the notion that the sun goes round the Earth.

We'd probably be WAY farther along to the "melding" of the races if we weren't insistent on the bogus bullshit of religions. That barrier certainly inhibits monofication of human physical distinctions. Imagine ONE global-wide skin color - with NO stupid "my-god-your-god" inhibitions to stand in the way of common sense!

Yeah - I'd never heard of Wipipo before today. And I honestly think I was better off not knowing of it - it's worth being nil. OF course....... unlike some of the dU community, I don't arise each morning with the only life I know being lived at this here keyboard. I don't have all my conscious hours to muse the intricacies of socio-political jousting and correctness. In MY head - ideally - I'd love to see the day when every earthling was of the same shade and the only "Wipipo" would be an occasional albino kid. And we'd have the genetic tools to fix said kid so he'd "fit in with the rest of humankind. Their parents would feel silly if someone caught them praying to some vacuuous entity for the child's eventual genetic repairs.

[loyalsister]

116. There's a good reason for us to not use it

I asked a friend about it and I think she's got it right. It is a specific word that reflects characteristics laid out by the originator. It would lose meaning if white people started using it srcastically or in an effort to claim they are being victimized. The original meaning and use should be kept intact.

[Demsrule86]

27. Wow...such hostility over a simple descriptive word.

[Thekaspervote]

202. Agree! Why get so upset? Life is too short as it is. Whether the term "catches " or not will be up

To the kids. They come up with all kinds of shorts and abbreviations. I’m sure if I asked my 15 year old granddaughter she would think it’s pretty cool... and I assure you, she is being raised VERY colorblind

[Demsrule86]

206. Yep...and they make fun of our old fashioned slang.

[paleotn]

33. Oh, good lord....

It's shorthand. We've been using similar for minorities since time immemorial. And you prove EffieBlack's point perfectly.

[wellst0nev0ter]

73. Lemme whitesplain it for you

One, it's twitter lingo for getting around the character count

Two, it also translates to "why, people" -- as in why must you be so needlessly hostile and condescending?

[egduj]

169. That left a mark.

[wildeyed]

191. Strawman

You lose. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

[NurseJackie]

5. Excellent essay. Thank you!

I continue to learn something new every day.

[salin]

6. Very insightful.

I am sure that despite the work that I would have enjoyed to be one of your students. Great exercise with which to set the tone (insightful) for the class.

[MineralMan]

7. Sounds like your white students thought "It's 'normal' to be white."

Nothing there to notice, really. Perhaps they think that's the default for humans. Or, perhaps, they don't think very well at all.

[EffieBlack]

10. Yes

Whites have been socialized to believe that white is the norm.

A running joke for decades in the black community was that you could always tell if a criminal suspect was white because the media just said, “The suspect is identified as a 20-year-old man, 6 feet tall with dark hair wearing a blue jacket...”

If the suspect was black, they said ”The suspect is identified as a black male, a 20 years old, 6 feet tall with dark hair wearing a blue jacket...”

There was so much criticism and with more diversity in newsrooms, the media has generally changed this approach. But it was common forever.

[MineralMan]

14. Exactly.

And wypipo get anxious when they are in a place where they stand out because of their skin color, too. It feels "uncomfortable" to them. And still, they don't get it. In fact, they often try very hard not to be in such situations.

[Demsrule86]

26. This is why neighborhoods are often segregated even today.

[MineralMan]

35. Some neighborhoods, anyway. Not mine.

The home my wife and I bought when we moved to St. Paul, MN is in a neighborhood that closely reflects the demographics of St. Paul, but shifted significantly toward people of color. It's a nice family neighborhood, with homes owned mainly by younger families of all skin tones and cultural origins. It's thoroughly integrated.

It's also a very friendly neighborhood. In our most recent blizzard, which dumped almost 18" of snow, everyone came out and went to work, first thing the next morning. By noon, every driveway was cleared. The city sidewalks were free of snow, as well. That included homes where nobody was able to participate and homes where people were out of town. Everyone came out. Everyone worked. Everyone pitched in.

Like I said, a thoroughly integrated neighborhood.

[Demsrule86]

55. My new neighborhood is diverse...people of all colors and nationalities...but the burbs in Ohio

tend to be segregated...my kids graduated with only a handful of Black students in their classes and I have not seen a Latino person since Georgia until I bought my house in Bedford Ohio...near Cleveland. Thankfully, we lived in Georgia where surprisingly the schools were quite diverse before so the kids experienced diversity.

[EffieBlack]

58. Agree - but Demsrule is right

I don’t know the demographic breakdown of your neighborhood, but notice that a neighborhood that’s 90 percent white and 10 percent minority is “integrated,” but a neighborhood that has a black population greater than 49.999999 percent is “black?” A community with a 90 percent black and 10 percent white population would NEVER be called “integrated.”

The “One-Drop Rule” doesn’t apply only to genetics ...

[MineralMan]

124. Well, if that were the case, my neighborhood would be a Hmong neighborhood.

Hmong families make up at least 50% of the homeowners here, now. The rest are about evenly divided between black, Hispanic, other Asian, and white families. It's a fun neighborhood to live in. Lots of stuff going on here - all of it good. Now that Spring is here, it's full of kids on bicycles and playing out on the lawns.

Yesterday a group of about 10 girls used sidewalk chalk to create an entire street system on the sidewalks, complete with stop signs and center-lines. Then, they rode their bikes up and down the sidewalk, observing the traffic signs. Next week, it will be something else. I watched a group of 10-year-old boys ride by an hour ago holding fishing poles. They're heading for the nearby little lake.

The place reminds me of my small-town childhood neighborhood in California, except that one was just Anglo and Hispanic kids. I learned Spanish in that neighborhood as a boy.

I like my neighborhood.

[wellst0nev0ter]

75. That never happens in Burnsville

[MineralMan]

125. I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm over on the East Side of St. Paul. I live in a 21st-Century urban neighborhood.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

16. White privilege. They view other people as "the other" and themselves as "people". Implication

Implication is that other people are lesser people. Lots of subtle implied racism that is unrecognized even by well-meaning whites, even by some who consciously and conscientiously try to avoid even a hint of racism.

The sooner the US arrives at white people being less than 50 percent, the better.

[MaryMagdaline]

53. Exactly what I was thinking

I never saw it with white people (privilege of not having to think about race) but I have noticed that English people, in particular, think that they have no ethnicity. Everyone else, whether German, Irish Russian, Indian, Jamaican, have ethnic traits and they have none. That the people with THE most peculiar eating habits in the planet see themselves as the default humans has always fascinated me. And annoyed me.

I think the same is true of all white people in the US. We are generic human ... the rest of you are ethnics.

[MicaelS]

131. Just out of curiosity....

What are "THE most peculiar eating habits in the planet"?

[MaryMagdaline]

140. The only one that counts ... eating bad food

Google bad English food. Then Google how bad English food is prepared.

[MicaelS]

142. YUCK. n/t

[TheSmarterDog]

167. ding! ding! ding! ding! ding!

How dare some non-normal, non-white person have a slang term for me! I don't understand what it means, so it MUST be derogatory & demeaning!

[mercuryblues]

228. they are

going out of their way to not understand. It is deliberate.

wypipo: will let their dog lick their tongue but won't sit next to a black person on a plane. It is a subset of white people. It literally means NOT ALL WHITE PEOPLE.

[True Dough]

8. I'm white (honky, bumpkin, whitey, etc.)

They are just labels. I still enjoy white privilege regardless of which label anyone may choose to slap on me. But it's a changing world. Very gradually changing, but hopefully becoming more equitable.

[Cracklin Charlie]

9. I am a white person.

I think the Wypipo thing is hilarious.

I have been cracking up at the word, and the response to it, all weekend.

[MineralMan]

17. I'm with you. The first time I saw the word, I recognized it, and

started chuckling. I knew that it was going to make a bunch of people uncomfortable, even here on DU. A little discomfort is good for people of privilege, I think.

[Demsrule86]

23. I agree...I had to wait and have it explained to me as I didn't recognize what the word came from...

(you are smarter than me) but after I did...a big who cares.

[sheshe2]

178. Woah...

It was more than a few uncomfortable people.

[MineralMan]

180. I think I said "a bunch of people"

Understatement, of course.

[sheshe2]

183. ...

[sheshe2]

226. +++

Sure caused a ruckus.

[MineralMan]

227. Sometimes, a little discomfort is a good thing.

It can make you think.

[sheshe2]

229. Correct.

[Demsrule86]

24. I think it is funny too...

[OregonBlue]

77. I had not heard it either and had the same reaction. It's so funny. I'm happy to be a wypipo.

[wryter2000]

174. Add me

I think it's hysterical and spot on. If you honestly don't act like wypipo, we're not talking about you.

I occasionally slip up and act like wypipo. Sometimes just in funny ways, like what I eat or how I talk. I learn.

[OregonBlue]

221. Me too and I catch myself thinking like wypipo and I'm embarrassed and so glad no one can read

my thoughts.

[ananda]

11. I wondered what that meant.

Now I know. I had to finally say it to get it.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

12. Great teaching "experiment". Should happen to all white people some time, teen years prob best. nt

[OneGrassRoot]

13. THANK YOU! Wish everyone would LISTEN to you.

Too many people don't really listen; they have their retorts already forming from the time they read the subject line.

The unwillingness of many white people to sit in discomfort and try to learn is a huge hurdle in the journey to finally face racism head on, something we as a country have never done. It's up to white people (I'm one of them) to heal racism, but the lack of self-awareness, the unwillingness to be uncomfortable and thus be honest with self, let alone others, ensures the continuation of white supremacy. This is true of white people as a whole (always exceptions!), even self-professed liberals/progressives.

I grew up in a KKK environment. Yes, that's extreme and overt white supremacist behavior on the part of individuals, but it made me more aware of the manifestations of white supremacy along the spectrum, including the daily microaggressions POC experience, as well as the systemic nature of it.

In case anyone is tempted to use the "hammer/nail" analogy, thinking I LOOK for racism, you're flat out wrong. I don't want to see it everywhere -- and I do mean everywhere throughout this country -- but it's there nevertheless and I don't hide from it as so many do because it makes them uncomfortable.

I got comfortable being uncomfortable from early childhood and have been doing my best to battle this demon for decades.

[safeinOhio]

15. You might not get any hands raised if

you ask the same question to a graduate class of Cultural Anthropology students. They might ask you to define Black and White. Is a person from South India with darker skin than anyone else in the room Black? Is a person with pale skin and very curly hair White?
The problem for anthropologist is were do you make the cut.

If only we were all blind.

[58Sunliner]

18. You are conflating a discussion with a label.

How about as a white person I label blacks Blapipo. Are you offended? It is diminutive and you know it. It is inherently racist. And I'm pretty sure I can guess the response.

[EffieBlack]

19. Anybody want to take this one?

I’m just not in the mood to do any more explaining right now.

[wasupaloopa]

40. Intersting that you know you have a possie that can speak for you.

I find your responses in these threads most annoying. Now you can label me at your ease or have someone else do it for you.

[tonedevil]

113. I find your response here...

annoying AF. Which would lead me to label you an annoyance. Hope that's what you were looking for.

[wasupaloopa]

150. You are good at the game

[tonedevil]

155. At this point..

I don't know how to interpret anything so I'll just thank you for the compliment.

[Demsrule86]

21. You identify Blacks by race everyday...when you use the term Black or White....that is a label...

the thing is when the tables turn, you are outraged....'why you are labeling me'.

[salin]

28. Reread the last paragraph of the OP.

The term isn't labeling "whites wypipo" - as your example suggests. It is mocking specific (often insulting to others) behavior that some white folks engage in.

She gives a very interesting explanation by why the term - in and of itself - makes some folks uncomfortable. You don't have to agree with the explanation - but she isn't saying what you suggest.

[Demit]

30. How do you feel about a Jewish person referring to the goyim?

That's a separator. That's basically saying "people who are not us." Is that offensive too?

[LakeArenal]

47. For fear of some pejorative coming my way,

I agree. So now in my life I have been...white, a woman, a teacher, fat,old,a honky, cu*!, bitch, the middle child, an underachiever, an object, a Democrat ,a hippie, college student, a radical, a loser, unemployed user, a fully employed American and currently an entitled retired person. Labels I agree with, some I don’t. Now I’m a racist because I don’t like some new made up labels.
Some experiment in hand raising.

The thing is, I was raised in pure white America. My parents were way more racist than the norm in suburbia. So I have struggled with my cultural awareness.
My first year of college was quite an awakening in way more ways than meeting all races. I have made plenty of ignorant moves, including overcompensating and insulting POC by doing so. All I can say is my truth. I can’t speak yours. But I know my heart is in the right place. My brain may let me down at times. But I believe I have finally reached a point where being a POC is not the first thing I notice about a person. It took many many years. It’s my weakness in character that took a long time.

These posts make me feel others see color first. Labels required.

Thanks professor, for repeated label making.

[EffieBlack]

54. Where did I call you a racist or "make" a new label for you?

[LakeArenal]

60. I think you are looking for an arguement.

Not interested. Tired of your juries, too.

[EffieBlack]

62. No. Just asking you to explain something YOU said

Not sure what you mean about “MY” juries. But, ok.

[LakeArenal]

64. Whoosh!!!!

[tonedevil]

117. You litteraly came into...

this thread bringing an argument and you have the nerve to claim EffieBlack is seeking an argument for asking you to clairfy where you think she called you racist or made a new label for you. You are the kind of white person thay brings the rest of us shame.

[LakeArenal]

121. I don't have to explain anything to you or anyone.

I can say my peace. Call me anything you want. You just want to argue. I’m not calling you anything. I’m also not falling into your word trap. Bye. I have to go.
Look forward to your bait tomorrow.

[tonedevil]

123. Can you point to a single remark...

where I or anyone in this thread has called you anything? If you just want to drop some paragraphs and run that's cool nobody's forcing you to stay and discuss. It apparently makes you uncomfortable when you are ready I'm sure you will overcome that.

[LakeArenal]

208. You are almost commical with your word bait

I “ran” .Haha I told you I’d be back today but you couldn’t help yourself could you!!!
Fortunately I have a real life. I don’t post word bait all day like some !!
You don’t make me uncomfortable at all.
Like I said you are predictably comical.

You are sure I’ll “overcome”. Got that half right. I’m over you.

Now you want some sincere dialog about white people. We can be sure you’re sincere when Whoosh is one of your “ let’s hear more “ phrases.

Well I am done. Characterize me anyway you want. No one is reading the post anymore anyway. Though I do expect you need desperately to have the last word.

I’ll take your Whoosh and and raise you a big fat PFFFT!!!

Have fun word baiting today. You are good at it. I’ll be out in the real world.

[tonedevil]

210. You are delusional...

I asked you to point out where anyone had called you a name. You have no examples. Now you are complaining that I have posted Whoosh apparently to you. Here is a challenge I'm sure you can't complete, find a post in my history where I have used Whoosh.

[wellst0nev0ter]

79. Rick Santorum already trademarked that word

And, no, he did not use it "respectfully"



http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/01/rick_santorum_says_hes_against.html

[Tom Rinaldo]

104. Funny how we often talk about folks who belong to "minorities".

but folks who are part of the "majority", well they are just plain folks. Unlock the phonetics here and you find the highly offensive term "White people", unlike perfectly acceptable terms like "people" or "Black people".

Ever since the dawn of texting words have creatively been shortened. Nothing inherently malicious about "whipipo", and if that "word" helps trigger more discussions about race in America, more power to it, because we need those discussions.

[TheSmarterDog]

170. Soon, every group will be a minority - including white people.

That's what they're afraid about.

[ehrnst]

109. There is another term that comes to mind here.

Whitesplaining.

[58Sunliner]

137. I speak for myself only, but you apparently think in racist terms.

Should I assume the original op is by a black person, hence, blacksplaining?
Or should I just assume the poster represents their own opinion.

[ehrnst]

168. Yes, you absolutely speak for yourself.

That's the point of my post.

[gollygee]

112. It's a label used in comedy, and in comedy, it's OK to "punch up" but not to "punch down"

We live in a racial caste system, with white people on top. It is not the same when people make jokes from the top down as it is when people make jokes from lower in the caste system to the top. This same principle extends beyond comedy though. Racism in general works in only one direction for this same reason - it requires societal power to make it effective.

Here's an article about this: https://www.buzzfeed.com/scaachikoul/why-punching-down-will-never-be-funny?utm_term=.fq3J3P5y81#.poqdAGgB7k

The real difference is that comedy shows or segments that are legitimately funny always punch up. Instead of wasting their time going after people who are typically in the minority, they go after people with tangible power that’s being abused. A basic tenet of humor — and I mean real basic, we’re talking ancient Greece here — is that your best stuff will come from going after people bigger than you. But Watters and Southern, and their respective networks, are too dedicated to maintaining the status quo to be remotely entertaining.

What both of these segments prove is that there’s nothing funny to be wrung from punching below your weight. Trans people, people of color, immigrants, ESL immigrants — whoever might be considered a minority — are the worst targets, because comedy inherently requires a shift of power. People who are targets merely for existing are already operating at an inherent loss; the real gold is in taking a shot at someone who thinks they’re invincible. At comedy’s core is risk, and there’s no risk in making fun of the already-mocked.

[sheshe2]

179. Seems to me those offended

Seems to me those offended are the wypipo that Michael Harriot spoke of and so named. They feel insulted and singled out. How dare that black man say such a thing.

How about as a white person I label blacks Blapipo. Are you offended? It is diminutive and you know it. It is inherently racist. And I'm pretty sure I can guess the response.

Lol~ How about you label a black 'Blapipo'.

Well, Sunliner after a century of slavery, lynching's, rapes, bought, sold, the selling of family members, beaten, whipped to death and tortured, working from sun up to sundown and housed in vial conditions. They have been called n***ers, jungle monkeys, apes and 3/5ths a human. I doubt very much that being called a Blapipo would hurt them very much. They have lived the vileness that this counrty and countrymen have to offer.

Yet some, not all, white people are deffensive and offended. Why is that?

[Demsrule86]

20. What a fantastic teaching exercise.

I appreciate the explanation...I have to say I was mystified about the wypipo reaction here.

[BlueIndyBlue]

22. K&R This is a wonderful OP

I live in blood red Indiana. As an black female I get so sick of white folks complaining every year about our annual "Black Expo" celebration. Mind you, we have Italian Fest, German Fest, St. Patty's Day (Irish) and a Scottish Fest and no one complains about those ethnic named festivals. But when the annual "Black Expo" comes around there is always the statement of "We don't have a White Expo so why are you guys being racist?" I've long held the belief that white folks love to be ethnic but freak out by the racial definition of "white".

I also attended a racial sensitivity training here locally. One of the white facilitators asked the white folks in the room to name attributes of being white excluding ethnic differences. The white folks sat in stunned silence and couldn't answer the question. They had nothing. When the black people were asked the same question we were able to name so many things that the facilitator had to shut it down after 5 minutes. White folks have never had to band together as a RACE for a communal identity to survive. I would love to read any scientific studies that may have been done on this subject.

[EffieBlack]

32. I LOVE this post!

Thank you.

I would have loved to hear the discussion about attributes of being black. I’ll bet it was really interesting - and probably a hoot!

[paleotn]

44. Very well said.....

Your next to last sentence is spot on and the root of this whole controversy. Funny that most white Americans have no problem with the ubiquitous Scottish celebrations where my people walk around in skirts and play instruments that sound like someone beating a cat to death with a stick.

[radical noodle]

120. You nailed it!

I lived 65 years in Indiana and heard the same thing about black history month. OMG... where's WHITE history month? As if every month wasn't white history month. The confederate flag is also popular in Indiana (especially southern Indiana) and Indiana fought for the north. There's no question why some have adopted it.

[Demit]

25. I learned this lesson when I had just moved to Miami.

I had returned to a computer store and was looking for the salesman who had helped me the first time. Another salesman asked what he looked like. I was twisting myself into a pretzel trying to avoid describing him by race. The salesman listened for awhile, then just said "Was he anglo or latino?"

Another time I got a phone call from a clerk at the Post Office calling to say I had left something there and that she'd hold it for me till I came in. She said "My name's _______. I'm the black girl."

It felt so straightforward and matter-of-fact and that was nice. Much better than in the old northeastern city I grew up in.

[EffieBlack]

36. Exactly!

It is not racist to identify people by race. Sometimes it’s perfectly logical and, often absolutely necessary.

[Gothmog]

31. K&R

[wasupaloopa]

34. I think you are wrong. So many of the replys in that thread went "I'm white but ................."

So why did those folks have to say they were white before they said they agreed with the majority who saw racism around every corner?


Is it because if they disagreed they would get hit with the racist label?

I saw some brave folks take acceptation to the use of the term in question and they were bullied by those I call "defenders of the faith."


There is a group think on this board and I don't like it. You either toe the line or you are a person who needs to do some work.

No the bullies need to do the work. I can disagree with folks about a use of a slang term if I want and that does not in any way give you license to define me.

[EffieBlack]

41. They identified themselves as white to help show that the term is not offensive

to all white people.

I actually appreciate it because I think it’s absolutely critical for whites to step up and discuss these issues with each other and to lean in and push back on fellow white people so that it’s not only black people speaking up.

White folk often ask me, “What can I do to improve race relations?” My response often is “Don’t talk to to me. Go talk to your white friends. I’m tired of having to deal with my own sh!t AND having to educate all of y’all, too. So help me out here, please ...”

[wasupaloopa]

49. I have to disagree with you. I take it you do not live in my skin as I don't live in

yours.

I will be 72 next month. I grew up in a segregated town. I don't know what is was like to be Black in Dayton Ohio any more the Blacks knew what it was like to be me.

I rode my bike through the Black neighborhoods as a kid to try and get some understanding out side of the things my dad said.

My friends and I went to the South for voter drives in the sixties.

No one can can put me in a box like I can't put you in a box.

[wellst0nev0ter]

86. We appreciate all the work you do

Educating other white folks.

That was the point you were responding to, right?

[wasupaloopa]

147. The point I would like to make is that the most popularly accepted "truths" here aren't truths at

all.

It is hard to explain other than to say as in history, the truth is what the majority believe it is.

The discussion of racism on this board by those who feel most knowledgeable on the issue isn't very enlightened and the remainder if not in some opposition to the accepted truth are go along to get along types with no real opinion of their own. That's what I think.

[tonedevil]

119. If you are going to disagree...

a convention in discussion you may not have completely understood is to state a disagreement. You told us lovely tales from your youth, enlightened us as to your age, and mentioned not being put in a box nor putting someone else in a box. None of that is in dispute you didn't illustrate your disagreement.

[wasupaloopa]

149. Say I lived through a certain event that took place many years ago. But today the majority of

people believe the facts of the event are different from what I experienced. No amount of my saying they are wrong and what the actual events were would mean a thing to them.

[haele]

223. No one can put you in a box until you let them.

Paraphrasing Eleanor Roosevelt.

I understand. I was taught from a very early age that I had a privilege others who didn't look like me had, even when we were living off one meal a day on peanut butter and home-canned jelly or tuna casserole with home-grown veggies. From my neighbors who were Latino, or Black, or Jewish.
My mom would wash my mouth out with Lava soap when I inadvertently repeated pejoratives against those of other races or ethnicities that I heard from the news or from other adults - relatives, or those who worked with or looked like my parents. I was taught it's rude and demeaning to call people names, and I don't do so now.
however...
Over the past 50 years experience of being in the military and working as a civilian, I've come to learn that I'm not other people. I don't have other's pain, anger, sense of humor, ways of coping, and neither do they have mine. So as I can see, and from my experience understand where the line you're drawing for social interaction, I don't agree with it because I can't agree to enforcing absolutes.
While it's wrong to call people derogatory names, it's understandable in certain circumstances. Sort of like the difference between a misdemeanor and a felony.

My argument logically goes this way - Wypipo should be considered is a misdemeanor "lack of respect" when used in exasperation about an activity - when someone who identifies as white does or gets away with something stupid. Not because it's fair in the greater understanding of social justice, but because someone got away with something because of the assumed power of their social status. Minorities don't have that luxury.
I do, no matter how wealthy or not, or where in the political hierarchy of my family or my community I am. My kids and I are always going to be viewed as "safe" or "the norm" by police, bankers, store managers, other parents, teachers, local politicians - and will always be treated with more respect and frankly interested compassion than someone of a different color than I am at my same social level.

So call me a cracker, call me a honky, call me a Wypipo when I do or say something in my apparent racial privilege. Does it hurt me other than my feelings?
Personally, as a primarily Sami/Swede with a hodge-podge of Germanic/French/British Isles mutt of a person, I don't care, because I'm not in the same box as someone who is expected to be below me in our current WASPy/Cracker cultural environment.
Historically I can understand that for the greater good of everyone it's better sometimes for those in the pressured minority to be able let off steam before it builds into resentful violence against all the majority, whether those in the majority are guilty of the pressure or not (#notallwhitepeople;#myneighborsandrelativesarebigots_notme).

I've found it's much better to deal with occasionally being taken down a peg or two than then go into high dudgeon and insist that everyone be treated with equal respect, even though this is clearly not true in the greater society around one.
If someone's being a bully, that's a different issue; but if in passing, one is called something unpleasant because of a stupid/racially insensitive act or word, it means nothing overall in the rest of one's life other than a poke at one's pride.
And Pride should be about what one does, not an illusion of position.

YMMV, but as Mom (armed with Lava soap) used to say "is this position or argument the issue you want to go to jail or die on?"

Haele

[Boomer]

51. So why do I say I'm white?

It's because we know, from experience, that the opinions of black people are all too often discounted as being slanted. So when we say "I'm a white person, and I see it too" we're adding validation to the statements of black people. We're speaking to other white people, saying "No, you don't get to invalidate this statement."

[betsuni]

37. Exactly.

[TheDebbieDee]

38. I noticed that I was doing this subconsciously years ago when...

I would hear or read a local account of a suspect the police needed help locating.

If the suspect was described only as male then I would assume they were describing a white male as opposed to a black or Latin male.

[RandomAccess]

39. Yes, White Male is the "norm" and

everything else is not. Everythng else is an exception to the norm.Members of those "everything else" groups have always had to make allowances and sometimes work very hard to try to even be thought about and considered, let alone seen and heard.

Terrific demonstration.

[EffieBlack]

43. Thanks

And we also have to do all of this without offending the often extraordinarily delicate sensibilities of the white majority.

[RandomAccess]

67. Exactly -- which is why

minorities and white women always know more about white males than they often know themselves. Have to be aware for personal protection, even if they're close to us personally.

[paleotn]

46. Bingo.

[Petrushka]

42. Wasn't online for a few days. Had to do a Bing search to find what "wypipo" means.

Found this ---> http://neguswhoread.com/wypipo-explained/




<--- Wypipo??

[Sunlei]

105. Thanks, now I see what Wypipo means, its a new twitter word I imagine as-

Act 1, stage center.
Sunlei-/face palms & shakes head, mutters, 'white people'.

[Petrushka]

207. . . .

[Sunlei]

230. hehehe! good one Petrushka :P

I just don't keep up with new evolving twitter words, it's impossible

[JunkYardDogg]

48. Wypipo Reminds me of the KKK phone greeting Howard Stern used to play

Back BB (Before Bush 2) when I used to listen to Howard Stern, instead of Political Radio, he used to play a phone answering recording from a KKK fuck, which opened up with a long, Southern drawl " Way kup Whyy Peepul...."
So, when I see the term "Wypipo" , I think of that........

[Sunlei]

50. good post, I feel like I'm out of societies classroom lecture loop- what is a "wypipo"?

Thanks in advance!

[EffieBlack]

52. "Top 10 Ways Black People Keep Racism Alive According to Wypipo"

2. Say “White People”

Because white people are accustomed to being seen as individuals, they hate being referred to as white people. It chaps their hides. Even laughing at the caucalicious phrase “chaps their hide” is racist, as is any variation of the term “white people,” including, but not limited to, “colonizer,” “mayonaisse American,” “undermelanated,” “a citizen of Rhythmless Nation” or “a Michael Rapaportian.”

https://www.theroot.com/top-10-ways-black-people-keep-racism-alive-according-t-1825682001?utm_medium=sharefromsite&utm_source=The_Root_facebook

[ProudLib72]

69. Hey! Thief!

Well, at least someone got the point of that post.

[oberliner]

122. This is from the author of: "Why I Could Never Vote For Hillary Clinton"

And the writer of: "Fuck Bill Clinton. I never voted for Bill Clinton. I never liked him."

[EffieBlack]

129. And?

[oberliner]

133. And he also wrote: "The Democratic Party Is Not Our Friend"

It was tagged as "DEMOCRATIC PARTY AIN'T SHIT" on his page at The Root.

[EffieBlack]

134. And?

[sheshe2]

181. 15th time they posted this in ALL the threads.

[oberliner]

199. Your Hillary Clinton avatar is inspiring

I can't imagine how anyone could have bragged about not voting for her against Trump.

[wildeyed]

193. Gonna have to dust off my list of logical fallacies.

The usual suspects trotting out the usual logical inconsistencies to avoid actually discussing the topic at hand.

[oberliner]

200. There is no logical argument being offered

I am sharing information about the author of the OP.

Normally articles by people who oppose HRC and The Democratic Party are not published supportively here, but there seem to be some apparent exceptions.

[wildeyed]

222. Trying to discredit the argument by discrediting the source.

No true Scotsman

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Poisoning the well

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Take your pick.

[oberliner]

198. And he also wrote: "White people don't give a fuck"

With respect to why Trump got elected President (even though he himself advocated for not voting for Hillary Clinton).

The truth is, there is only one reason that Donald Trump will be the forty-fifth President of these United States:

Because White people don’t give a fuck.

[EffieBlack]

205. Ok.

[Petrushka]

209. Shouldn't he have said, "Wypipo don't give a fuck."?

[heaven05]

56. clear, concise nt

[Boomer]

57. Recent example of Wypipo

The woman who called the police on two Mohawk students quietly attending a campus tour. Too quietly, apparently, because they made her nervous by not talking or answering her nosy questions.

White people might ask the tour guide if the two kids belonged to the group, but it's Wypipo who would call the police on them.

[sweetloukillbot]

110. I'm not sure that's exactly right

I think that lady who called the cops on the Native American students was just a racist.
I see it more with the Starbucks incident. The manager is a straight up racist, but the people defending her with things like "they were loitering and its her right as a manager to ask them to leave" are wypipo.

[paleotn]

59. Very insightful. Thanks!...

It's interesting how turning the the descriptive dynamic back towards white people makes many of them squirm. We're culturally not use to being labeled as other. For some, maybe it touches a nerve where we're consciously or subconsciously remorseful and embarrassed by what whites have done to others over the centuries, and being singled out reveals something they've not yet fully come to terms with. For others, it may be "how dare you single out the normal state! All is other except us!" Whatever it is, we're damn touchy about it. That's usually a sign of something that needs to be closely examined and dealt with.

[Kirk Lover]

61. Yes I'm white and I should be identified as such because I am! If I need to use race to identify

myself or someone else.....I DO IT..and guess what it's not racist!! The first time I called down to the garage at my job I identified myself as "Pattie the white girl from the 16th floor".

I just think Wypipo could of been used in a more broader term than animal activists "crazies" (full disclosure I am animal activist but with a different kind of crazy ) It's a waste of term!!!!

[EffieBlack]

63. Thanks. But read up again on "Wypipo" - it isn't limited to animal rights activists.

[orangecrush]

65. See ya

[Mister Ed]

66. I dunno. I just sort of shrugged the whole thing off.

Which is very, very easy to do from the position of comfort and security I hold as a white male.

People, that comfort and security is what's known as "white privilege".

[MaryMagdaline]

68. For the record I am fine with Wypipo

Just don't call me Becky.

[ismnotwasm]

70. The responses to Wypipo from certain, presumably white People, is fucking embarrassing to me*

*Especially for a Democratic website. One of the classes I took about 15 years ago for a sociology credit used this book, The Meaning of Difference: American Constructions of Race, Sex and Gender, Social Class, Sexual Orientation, and Disability I’m happy to see it is still in print.

https://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Difference-Constructions-Orientation-Disability/dp/0078111641

It’s not like the topic of race and white supremacy hasn’t been studied, dissected and analyzed. It’s not like there aren’t entire degrees out there in how people interact with on another. The information doesn’t require a class, merely a desire and focused attention. My personal anecdotes about being white and the experience of being part of an invisible standard are one thing, the topic of Whiteness AS that invisible standard is something entirely else. Whiteness is very destructive, and white people participate in it every day.

I have hope though Some of the anger and frustration from bigots, and from well meaning people is because there are cracks in the structure of whiteness. White people are angry, confused, some are hurt, as they try to be anti-racist, but don’t challenge Whiteness as a standard, then wonder why we don’t get “credit” from people of color. We wonder why something like Wypipo happens. Why “white tears” is a thing. Safe in the super-structure of whiteness we look over the landscape and try to pretend the problem is economics only, that racism is always an active action, that whatever our particular circumstances our lives within Whiteness does not adversely affect others.

But it does. I hope I live to see the whole structure start to tumble down. Thank you for your post, thank you for continuing to reach out.

[Civic Justice]

94. good posting

[Madampiece Theater]

72. I have not posted on DU in a while and I won't

again, unless a post really strikes me as brilliant, as did EffieBlack's. I am not a new poster, by the way. I had to re-register due to a glitch with my computer.

Effie's brilliant observation about wypipo and white people really illustrates the dynamic as it relates to race in this country. It should be of no surprise to anyone that the wypipo who are upset by that term are the very definition of that term. White people are not wypipo.

Those who are offended by the word wypipo are being disingenuous and obtuse. I say this to them: black people are called the n-word on a daily basis. Black people are discriminated against on a daily basis. Black people are the last hired, first fired on a daily basis. Black people are judged for just being black on a daily basis. I could go on and on, but you should get the point. Now, do you all really want to continue playing dumb about this? Because if you do, then the members who post frequently should treat you as if you are dumb. Black people were forced into a country that literally enacts laws to discriminate against us. And you all are upset at the word "wypipo?"

Thing is, wypipo still enjoy white privilege. Wypipo will never be police-escorted from an establishment, told that the texture of their hair is offensive, wypipo will never have laws enacted to discriminate against them, etc. Whereas a black person is already a problematic n-word at first sight and can be discriminated against. Again, you're mad at the word "wypipo," though. Okay.

For those of you who want to come for me, don't expect a response. I'm a 52 y/o woman who has observed alot. Nothing that you can say is going to make me change my mind. If my post upsets you, then you are wypipo.

Thank you, EffieBlack, for your brilliant post.

[MaryMagdaline]

82. Thank you as well, Madampiece Theater

The post and the comments have been insightful

[Eliot Rosewater]

114. Thank YOU

[Civic Justice]

74. I've written on many websites....

Last edited Sun May 6, 2018, 04:09 PM - Edit history (1)

I've addressed this matter as well, at how many white people.. the instance they see the words "white people" their attitude would go into neglect, denial, avoidance, contempt and their ears would shut down, and their ability to comprehend what is being said, becomes void. They will miss the entirety of point and factors being discussed, and ignore the principles being addressed, and become fixated on the words "white people".

Yet, as the OP said, many will immediately turn and make a statement using the worlds "black people", and never become aware of themselves doing so, still, they will immediately expect black people to only focus on the points and factors they are addressing. Yet, they can't do the same when they see the words "white people" referenced in discussing points and factors.

It was evident over many centuries and many decades, and was very vividly true during the Era of Dr. King's Speeches, 'they simply would go into neglect, denial, avoidance, contempt and their ears would shut down, and their ability to comprehend what is being said, becomes void.

The history of "white people" thinking they are some Model for Mankind, has made many blind, unaware and obstinate to gain introspect in and of themselves and their manner of dealing with non white people. We see it still today, with the "insensitivity" in things they say, and when they are called on it... some go into defense mode, and if it will cause them public ridicule, they issue a insincere apology, for the sake of their public image or fear of loss of some aspect of white privilege.

President Lyndon B. Johnson once said,
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

As the OP said, on DU, where people claim to join because they support equality, fair and equitable standards for all, it is evident some hold to that claim, "unless" it will bring them to give up the want of white privilege. Some still exemplify the character traits as if they are superior to non whites, and they have a million+ ways of seeking to convey that, even when they do so unconsciously as if its second nature. As this has been the historical cultural grooming in ways of thinking and ways of seeing themselves in relation to others who are not white.


The impacts of hundreds of years of slavery and Jim Crow, did not miss any groups of white people, even newly arriving white immigrants adopted the "ideological grooming of Jim Crow" and some brought a bias with them as a family unity/or individual when they arrived in America.

As Einstein said... “There is separation of colored people from white people in the United States,” said the renowned physicist, using the common term in the day. “That separation is not a disease of colored people. It is a disease of white people. I do not intend to be quiet about it.”

We can look at the Right Wing White Racist Groups... They demonstrate a nature of madness that raged for centuries in America and they are void of the capability to learn and see, they and their mentality is what promotes and create the vile in America and Among people. The attitude they express toward women and minorities, is the exact same attitude that led this nation to become obsessed with "outsourcing". It was a means to ensure that women and minorities would not have avenues to gain economic parity with white men. His history saw women as his possession and he held a desire to keep her dependent on him, and he saw black people as being a property he could control and remand to being dependent on him, and these are the vile mentality perspective he has long been groomed to pursue as a backing for his delusion of being superior and trying to protect his 'privilege to have first and last choice in every matter and thing.

We see it with voter suppression, we see it within what is promoted as to political policies by right wing white groups. Anything they think will benefit women and minorities, they will destroy, including much that even damages themselves to achieve the denial of benefits that would be available to women and minorities.
"They" cry about "my tax dollars"... when they are blind to the fact, their historical upkeep and environment were built by 100% tax on minorities and by rationing out to women (as his possession) only enough to keep her fit and healthy for his pleasure. During Segregation, black people paid taxes as did women, but "they" detested any tax monies to be spent to improve minority communities, but quickly supported any level of tax expenditure within and for "their" communities.

It's not any different than the Confederacy Mentality... where everything was to support the white people's Antebellum ideals; as they saw minorities as nothing more than property, and they saw women as ornamental, for his pleasure and his public image and to provide him offspring's, and when she no longer had the youthful appearance, he had not a second thought about taking a mistress, he saw it as his privilege, while calling himself moral and honorable and virtuous; of which non of such applied to him.
The poor whites were and are considered as nothing more than "service class technicians"... used often to ensure the sowing of racial animosity in the public circle. In the chaos, as was within the Confederacy Principles, when there's chaos, the wealthy reap greater profits and widened the gap between the rich and the poor.

MLK said it all within he Speech at Selma: http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/Core.woa/FeedEnclosure/americanpublicmedia.org.1749274648.01749274655.1867056927/enclosure.pdf

If the Average Poor and Working Poor White People had held the capacity to listen and actually hear and understand what he was saying, they may have done better in learning how to see themselves and how they were being manipulated by the systems of the wealthy who used them as pawns, the same as we see today, the Trump Administration and Republican Congress and the White Evangelicals, using the average working poor and struggling poor whites, still to this very day.
It has taken the force of law and the fear of consequence of law that has brought many "white people" to act civil in general societies public arena, but for many, the transition of thought and feeling in the heart has not much changed. As we see the desperation by many means to try and hang on to the fiction of white superiority and the fear of not having the inequality benefit of white privilege diminished.

We can watch TV Commercials, and the incessant depiction of "predominantly white people" promoted as if they expect to be an image and character as if they expect such to be the social standard, when the products being advertised is often purchased and used by "all people". We watch white people claim depression and go into despair if they can't afford to live the "commercialized imagery", and "they don't have the monetary means to live by such imagery standards, until within today's society of white people, we see more and more white people killing their families and themselves, when their economic means does not afford them the means to live these commercial imagery depictions. We seem them sanitize crime in their community, because the criminal is white and appears as some promoted commercial imagery depiction, and then they call it an "anomaly" as its quickly squashed from the media. We see mass murderers quickly be claimed to have a "mental issue" or "off their med's"... rather than to see them as evil cold blooded killers. This is quickly followed, by claiming the killer be it "he/she was always such a nice person".
Unaware they make means of acceptance and inspire promotion of more of the same to escalate in their environments. We see now, the incessant string of teachers sexing up their students, clergy sexing up the youth and adults sexing up kids, as that old historical mentality of being groomed to think that being white, nothing is to be denied to them. They act shocked and stunned, when they are busted.

There is much in need of introspection.... by white people; if this nation is to achieve a demeanor of equality.

White people are a mixed lot of Various European cultural/ethnic groups, of which many can't stand each other, but they will unify as being "white" in the stand to think themselves superior and to want first and only choice as in being privileged to do so, and in being superior to non white ethnic people.

[Tom Rinaldo]

127. An excellent read. We all need to be discussing these matters, but yes, whites especially n/t

[Civic Justice]

164. Not much in society takes that "giant leap forward", until...

Last edited Sun May 6, 2018, 05:47 PM - Edit history (1)

it is inclusive with creativity and ethnically, racially and culturally contributions -- ... We can see that all throughout history... Back from the times of people from the early civilization of the Middle East, the Far East, Africa and the Ancient Cultures that were Early Models of which many of European cultures adopted much from, by force and theft as well as false claims, and some by collaborations, without giving credit to the origins of what they engaged, be it means and methods to do, ideologies of philosophical models to structure society and live by and designs and models to build build from.
.... this includes the span from mathematics to science, to philosophy, medicine and all such things, even with technology in this day and time, it took the many various Asian and India nations people to build upon and expand it and integrate it into everything, but what many even in American failed to acknowledge and purposefully ignore, is the contributions of black people in the advances of the computer systems, from the I/O systems to breaking past the Ghz processor, to the advance in tech that aided the movement to cell technology.
Today, China has the fastest supercomputer and they have 5 to our few. Japan has taken robotics and made great strides, and all the tech companies that boast such profits, have yet, to incorporate black people into their ranks, and today, many are spinning in a clone like development stage of apps, when they expand to include black people, it will become as revolutionary in expanse as what black people did for music and many other things. This includes opening the door to venture capital.
The old history of stealing the ideas of other and profiting, and claim other did not contribute, simply because "the white man" hoarded the money and did not pay or compensate black people for the ideals that were hijacked and stolen. There's a long history of such, but still to this day...the general concept in far too many white people, is: "they think they can't learn anything from black people. Because they don't know the real truths of America or the world.

White people for many centuries and decades went into Africa to try and learn about medicinal things from the African healers, and once the knowledge was gained... the white man claimed it for themselves, as a discovery by themselves. This is the type of blindness that the delusion of superiority feeds into general white society. It makes them think they can't learn anything from black people as if black people have nothing of knowledge they can gain from. Today, the intricacies of Music that influence the world's music in many ways, was advanced by black people advances in how to use musical note, rhythm and melodies and timing.

Example are many many many over the history not only of America but within the world, an example comes to mind of Dr. Blalock and works of Vivien Thomas, where Dr. Blacloc was given the credit, when Vivien Thomas without a medical degree or prior medical training, was instrumental in advances achieved in open heart surgery. Vivien Thomas went on to teach many of America's Heart Surgeon's, yet he never attended medical school to get a degree.

President Obama went to work on the devastated economy, and got us off our economic knees, when as Bill Clinton said, he could not have done it, and we have economist after economist saying they did not know what to do or how it could be done. Obama achieved it, white the savagery of right wing attacks were thrust at him every minute of everyday.

Reginald F. Lewis, was an American businessman. He was the richest African-American man in the 1980s, and the first African American to build a billion-dollar company, Beatrice Foods. History is filled with black people who contributed amazing things, even with opposition and roadblocks that many successful white people never had to face or deal with.

Other stores never told was the contribution of black people in the Manhattan Project, and it was undeniable the work of the Tuskegee Airmen, so their story could not be hidden. it was not publicly promoted, as to the signifigance they contributed until years and years later.

History has many truths that were long hidden, a recent film "Hidden Figures" depicted the black women working on the Apollo project and their importance in its success, at some point, we may find the truths of the black men who also working to support and promote the advancement of that project as well.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

76. Thank you for this

Excellent essay and lesson.

I’m a voracious reader, and I noticed from an early age how some authors would single out a character as specifically being black or some other minority but leave out that description on others. It wasn’t until I got older I realized that those authors were white and assumed white was the default.

One of my favorite authors (a white man) specifies white characters as being white, because he recognizes that “default” as unfair. Predictably, he regularly gets some readers whining that it’s racist for him to point out so and so is white in his books.

[cp]

78. Thank you

[Uncle Joe]

80. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, EffieBlack.

[BumRushDaShow]

81. That pretty much sums it up.

Much of what you mention I recall hearing in a workshop I took probably 30 years ago at a BiG (Blacks in Government) conference. That is also where I first heard the term "scotoma" (that people see me use here), which is used to indicate when someone has a "blind spot" to certain observable traits, perceptions, or behaviors. The presenter's goal was to strip away the scotomas and raise the level of awareness about different cultures and how they see and react to various situations - using sociological data to support it.

[Johnny2X2X]

84. Very good story to illustrate different attitudes

I find society's expectation of ownership of other peoples' actions to be a race based assignment. White people get to just be responsible for themselves, while Blacks, Hispanics, and Muslims somehow are called on to take responsibility when someone of their race or religion commits a crime or even says something controversial. There's always a burden on those groups, where as no one ever looks at me as a white man and asks me to speak out against some white guy on the news who has done something wrong.

A part of white privilege is only having to worry about yourself. Society only asks me to answer for my own actions, no one is expecting me to have to answer for the actions of Dylan Roof, the Vegas Shooter, or Richard Spencer.

[Tom Rinaldo]

87. Effie, Thank you.

Not just for what you have written here, but for all that you have been doing to bring the subterranean world of unconscious racial assumptions into the light of day at Democratic Underground. It is a difficult mission to take on, with truths that are hard to articulate let alone grasp, that so often come with strong emotional charges attached. It reflects a deep commitment to building bridges that you even make this effort.

It is the perverse nature of prejudice that those who harbor it without conscious ill intent are usually hard pressed to see it in themselves. Prejudice will never be vanquished until that changes. Unfortunately that too often leaves it to those who are most effected by that prejudice to become teachers ministering to ignorance even as they themselves are victimized, before that fundamental cleansing can occur. It is, in a way, yet another layer of injustice.

Thank you for the sustained effort you are making here to unravel the knots that too often bind "white people" to racism, even those of us who sincerely and consciously abhor and condemn it. Your writing on this subject is superb. It is invaluable, and it is a gift.

[Civic Justice]

102. Good post!!!!

[Maeve]

88. Effie, you are a treasure

And I'm glad you are a teacher--we need more kids educated as you have done! (and I'm old enough to think of college-aged as "kids&quot

One quick story from the "white" side--I used to be so proud of my family tale of how an ancestor moved to Ohio from Virginia in pre-Civil War days because he objected to seeing a slave beaten in the public square--"We're going where that doesn't happen." It took me some time to realize that the story is actually one of white privilege; he didn't fight to stop slavery, he just didn't want to see it anymore. And he had the freedom to leave--not a freedom the slave would ever have. At least some of my Ohio ancestors joined the Union army when the war finally came...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

90. Thank you for your very interesting and insightful post.

For years I've noticed that "white" is the default assumption when a person is being described; that is, if a person's race is not mentioned they are assumed to be white. It's only if they are something other than white that the description includes race. And then when you ask a white person (and I'm one) to identify something about their race they will usually mention their nationality or ethnicity and talk about how their grandfather's lederhosen or grandmother's stromboli. Most white people seem to be perfectly comfortable discussing their ethnic or national background, but it seems like the only ones that talk about the "white race" as such are white supremacists, who are by their very own selves evidence that white supremacy is a lie.

I have no problem identifying as "white" and probably would have raised my hand in your class, but if you asked me what was distinctive about my racial identification I'd probably go off about my Ancestry DNA test showing me to be a mix of Scandinavian and other miscellaneous European. I don't know how to talk about being "white," except that I am of the default race in this country, which, of course, is my white privilege. I am trying to be more aware of how completely pervasive that is. Thank you for helping.

[ProudLib72]

91. A couple years ago I had a class that decided to seat themselves along racial lines

This was the semester I was using a subtext of bias in the class. Each essay they wrote was predicated on a different bias, whether it was male/female, racial, or able bodied/disabled. I never have a seating chart (this was a college class after all). When the students got to choose where to seat themselves, there was a "Hispanic side" and a "black side" with the few white students in the class sitting scattered among the two "sides". The seating arrangement occurred organically.

There was one student named Juan who sat on the "Hispanic side" the entire semester. At some point midway through the semester, Juan said something about being black. For several minutes, the other students were a little confused. "Are you black?", they asked. They had to make sure because, after all, he wasn't that dark and his name was obviously Hispanic. "Yes, I'm black," he told them. One of the black students said, "You want to come sit over here?" and patted the top of the table next to an empty seat on the "black side". I had to point out that Juan was doing just fine sitting where he was on the "Hispanic side" and would have continued to fool everyone had he not actually stated his ethnicity to the class.

The strange thing (or maybe it wasn't so strange) was that the class self segregated from the very beginning. Was it an unconscious decision that they gradually became aware of? Whatever the case, the day they discovered Juan was black forced them to admit there were "sides". That was a good teaching moment.

[Adrahil]

92. I absolutely think that's true.

I see even liberal white friends (and to reiterate, I am white myself) that are uncomfortable stepping outside the comfort zone of being the "default."

Most of them would be horrified if they realized it, but they are perfectly comfortable being magnanimous to others from within that privilege. It's costs them nothing. It RISKS nothing. But there is definitely discomfort in risking that position of privilege and suddenly that magnanimity isn't easy.

Having said that, I am uncomfortable with creating a system of rules that establishes when it's okay to use a derogatory term referencing the targets race.

Don't get me wrong, I do it. I call some of the folks surrounding me hillbillies, rednecks, hicks, toothless trailer trash. I get angry and I use those terms. But I'm not really proud of it. And I don't think it's a good idea to try and justify it. I acknowledge I got angry and used those terms. I'll probably continue to do it every now and again. But I'm not going to pretend I'm somehow noble in doing so.

[Tarc]

93. Some white liberals get uncomfortable when someone points out they are less-than-perfect

in regards to race relations.

We tend to point out the obvious racism on the right and consider it to be just "a conservative problem". It's easy to condemn the Confederate flag-bearers, the cross burners, the n-word droppers, and so on. That's the low-hanging fruit. It's harder to tackle the subtler issues of housing and loan discrimination, disproportionate sentencing, police brutality, and so on.

[sweetloukillbot]

111. A Jewish friend of mine in Boston says he's never seen as much racism

As he does among the supposedly educated liberal elites in his area.

[MicaelS]

136. I'm old enough to remember forced busing...

Back in the late 60s / early 70s. I have lived in Texas most of my life, and never saw as much raw hatred on TV, as I did coming from white parents in the Northeast fighting busing. Boston was especially memorable. So the idea that the South is the only place that racism exists is not true.

[cagefreesoylentgreen]

138. It's still there

From this year: https://www.theroot.com/1825604174

Textbook example of wypipo.

[EffieBlack]

141. "Forced busing" is a loaded term, conjured up by anti-desegregation forces

Busing was very common the the 60s and 70s because of housing patterns (largely the result of white flight spreading schools and neighborhoods farther and farther apart). Only a tiny percentage of it was for the purposes of desegregation - and it was only used as a last resort when school districts refused to address segregation in any other way, such as simple redrawing of district lines.

But you're right - the opposition, especially in Boston and a few other northern cities, was hateful and ugly - and still resonates to this day.

[MicaelS]

145. Never knew that.

I was bused in Jr and High School. Simply because there were no schools close by. Never thought a thing about it.

[Tarc]

156. This goes to the OPs' point. We had kids bused in from the city

I was really too young to grasp what it all meant at the time, but our in-town buses were simply numerical, 1-8, while the kids from the city rode "the Metco bus" (named after the organization, http://www.metcoinc.org/).

[BumRushDaShow]

95. To add an interesting analogy

One need only look at a country that managed to adopt the U.S. system of segregation and take it a step further to create "apartheid". But what is different is that in that country, when someone references a "South African", the "default" ("universal" ) is to believe that the person is a "black" African.

But so very often when that is not the case, you will see the term "white South African" used (and it is used quite a bit, almost in a huff).

-The difference there being that whites are the minority, although until almost 25 years ago, they still wielded the power despite being a racial minority.

And it really underscores the magnitude of impact of the whole construct of "race" that Europeans developed hundreds of years ago as an overlay to the already discordant ethnic divisions. Yet if you were not a member of the "correct" race, then you had better know all the hierarchies and ins and outs and inconsistencies that define "race", or you could wind up dead.

[procon]

96. It's wrong to slap dehumanizing and derisive labels on anyone.

This very narrow view that you and others who defend this term seems intended to prop for your own racial biases. By using pejorative labels for whites it comes across as some sort of passive aggressive retaliation for your own litany of perceived offenses. Regardless of race or ethnicity, no group of people share monolithic character traits. The racial stereotyping that you are trying to defend is wrong, it's bad when whites do it and no less atrocious when blacks do it.

You think that your slur of "Wypipo” makes whites uncomfortable, and that might be true, but maybe not for the reasons you've assigned. It's more likely because they feel embarrassed for you and your bigoted attitude, yeah?

[Doodley]

135. It is simply disrespectful to use slang words to describe people, no matter their color, gender,

sexual orientation, size, age or anything else.

[SharonClark]

98. Interesting assumption you make...

"That helps to explain why some white acquaintances get very uncomfortable when I say, for example, “I’ll meet you in the cafe at 3. I’m black and will be wearing a beige coat.” They’re ok with the coat, but don’t want me to think they’ll notice that I’m black - even though that’s the most logical way to spot me in restaurant filled with mostly white people - because they think that means they’re “being racist.” "

How do you know that is what your acquaintances think or feel over a phone or text? Do they tell you they are uncomfortable? Do they tell you that you revealing your race makes them uncomfortable?

[EffieBlack]

103. I know it because we talked about it.

Fortunately, everyone is not so reluctant to discuss these things with people of other races as some of the people on DU seem to be.

[radical noodle]

139. You're exactly right

Some of us (me included) have seen the bad or unequal treatment of our black friends through the years and don't want to be mistaken for being that way ourselves. Therefore we sometimes overreact to anything that we worry might appear that way... sometimes going way overboard the other direction... like those who say they "don't see color." I'd be very surprised if anyone can say that color doesn't register on some level. Noticing color doesn't have to be a negative thing.

[EffieBlack]

144. Exactly!

Insisting that you "don't see color" is like saying you didn't notice I was female - it also means that you don't see ME.

[BannonsLiver]

151. The larger question

Is wouldn’t her friends and acquaintances know she’s black? Seems a bit odd to need to remind people you know that you’re black.

[EffieBlack]

154. I have acquaintances who have never met me in person

Otherwise, there would have been no need to describe myself to them.

[mainer]

99. I'm not white either. Your analysis is spot-on

We non-whites are always very aware of being minorities, and we always know we will be identified in terms of our race. So we just accept it.

[mcar]

100. Effie, you are a wonderful writer

and a great teacher, I bet. I so appreciate your input here.

[G_j]

101. I don't think a term few have even heard of, warrants all this

energy. Maybe I haven’t been paying attention, but DU is the only place I’ve seen the term. It all seems pretty silly from this perspective and doesn’t seem very constructive.

[loyalsister]

106. This kerfluffle :) should (maybe still can) create an opportunity for dialogue

The first time I read this, I saw myself. Because at some point I had adopted or supported some versions of what was listed. I was predisposed to acknowledge it, as I have been open to evaluation of general and personal history related to my privilege.
White guilt? Maybe some shame or embarrassment. But, really a lot of regret and thoughts of what I could have done better. It is essential for white people to do better. Especially white people who oppose racism, to confront our part in facilitating or just casually enabling white supremacy. We are part of the majority and have privilege we can tap and use for good.
We have got to be honest and see ourselves as part of the problem. Most of us have been influenced and are surrounded by whytpipo. Most of us have been whytpipo. My take is that we don't have to take part in what invites the description. One step is to not dismiss the value of the term and to not be defensive in the context of valid generalizations of us as white people.

Thanks for the instructive post and teaching!

[KPN]

108. Great post. White person here.

I must admit that after reading it, I feel a bit guilty about thinking of myself as just "a person". Oddly and somewhat ironically, with this revelation I also feel somewhat between a rock and hard place. You've presented me with a real dilemma. How does this revelation reconcile with my belief that we'd all be far better off if we simply thought of each other as "people"? I realize I am asking this question as a white person -- which after several leaps of logic leads me to another realization: how can black people ever be color-blind if we white people keep making them feel black? It's like peeling back layers of an onion. Is there a core? Will we ever get there? And what will it look like when we do? This stuff's complicated.

Thanks for the enlightening post. Nice to learn something about myself ... um, I think.

[Boomer]

118. I don't see "color-blind" as the goal

It's easy for a white person to proclaim the virtues of being color-blind because the default color is white. The goal of ignoring race tends to work out better for the dominant race. It's the same when straight people proclaim they don't care what people do in their own bedroom, as if my being gay is something that can be dismissed as nothing more than a privacy issue.

No. It doesn't work that way. Being gay is more than what I do in one room of my house; it is integrated into every part of my life. Being black is more than just a skin color; it encompasses a rich and vibrant cultural history. Being "color-blind" ignores that reality.

The goal is not to erase differences, or "not see them." it's to celebrate or at least respect them. A black person is going to have a very different experience -- in ways good and bad -- of what it means to live in America. We can recognize someone "as people" AND recognize that they "feel black" too.

Again, as a gay person I may have a lot in common with straight people, but I am not interchangeable with a straight person. Being gay brings its own culture, history, and feelings. I don't need you to ignore them to make me feel like a human being. Quite the contrary, I need them acknowledged as a part of who I am. I'm waiting for the day that straight people can deal with me being gay and not flinch away from our differences.

[EffieBlack]

143. This an AMAZING post!

Thank you!

[Boomer]

171. The thanks is all mine

Your OP was such a wonderfully thoughtful commentary on the different perspectives and insecurities we bring to discussions about race.

When you mentioned the #notallwhitepeople reaction, I immediately thought of the #notallmen reaction that is interjected into conversations about violence against women. Instead of listening and learning from the experiences women are narrating, some men get unbelievably defensive about the phrase "men do this" and drown out the conversation with protests about being maligned by being lumped together with violent men. They are considerably more agitated by what they perceive as an insult than they are about the behavior under discussion.

So I try to draw on that experience when race is the issue instead of rape. Right, I'm a white person, but I'm not (necessarily) the white person that is under discussion. And if I shut up and listen, I'll better understand what black people are experiencing. And I might learn that there are times when, much to my chagrin, I really am "one of those white people." That's good to know, because I can't stop dodgy behavior if I'm not aware of it, right?

I think there are times when I've been guilty of the bending over backwards not to mention race, when it was a perfectly valid descriptor. The OP made me more aware of that anxiety and more cognizant that it is baseless and unnecessary in that context.

[sheshe2]

194. ++++

[brer cat]

148. Outstanding post, Boomer.

[Doodley]

126. Trying to justify yet another race-based slang word is pretty ridiculous.

[EffieBlack]

130. Not sure what that has to do with the point of my OP. But ok.

Thanks for weighing in.

[Doodley]

132. I read the first paragraph, the second paragraph, the last paragraph and everything in between. What

I saw was another race-based slang word that I had never heard of before and and an explanation about the upset white people may feel about the use of that word. Try this, it's a slang term to describe race. Who wants that?

[BannonsLiver]

146. Wouldn't your friends and acquaintances know you are black?

[EffieBlack]

152. Not in this instance

I'm referring to a colleague whom I'd only dealt with on the phone - hence the need to describe myself when we finally met.

[meadowlander]

153. African-Americans, women, LGBQT, Muslims

are terms used by those groups to self-identify.

"Wypipo" is a term used by another group with intent to denigrate.

I don't have a problem being identified as a "white person". I wouldn't be very impressed by someone calling me a "wypipo" or "cracker" or "redneck" or "honky" or whatever because those aren't terms that I would use to describe myself.

The objective should be to get rid of the barrel not to make sure each ethnic group gets a turn in it, whatever that means.

[Tarc]

158. I'd surmise that those groups "self identify" out of a need for support & community

in the face of oppression and discrimination. Historically black colleges were created by necessity, as blacks were shunned and denied traditional avenues of education. Gay bars came about as a safe haven for the LGBT community to interact, away from discrimination in straight social settings. And so on.

[Cary]

157. What's your point?

It seems to me like I'm being wedged here. My options:

1. Ignore you;

2. Find some reason to disagree with you and have you come back with something like how I'm not a good sport; or

3. Patronize you when in fact Im not seeing this wedging as helpful to the coalition needed to combat racism.

Human beings are capable of some 15,000 different tasks. The very best of us can maybe do 200 of those tasks passably well. If you're going to look for the 14,800 tasks at which I am utterly incompetent you will easily find many, but why? So Incan wring my hands and confirm what you want to believe? What do you gain? Where is the challenge?

If you want to achieve things then find the good in people and enable them. I am a white male. What you're saying to me here is not helpful to me and as such I suggest it is a disservice to you. Specifically it is way too broadsweeping.

[EffieBlack]

159. If you can't see the point in my very thoughtfully written OP, I doubt any further explanation

from me would be helpful.

Perhaps you should just ignore me.

[Cary]

162. I have until now because I expected that my point of view would be summarily

Dismissed.

I am disappointed.

[Bok_Tukalo]

160. Most seem to agree it's a racial slur.

You, and others, are just trying to make the case that racial pejoratives directed at caucasians should be socially acceptable.

[EffieBlack]

161. How are you defining "Most?"

Have you taken a scientific poll or just guessing?

[Bok_Tukalo]

163. Counting.

Even in your OP you call it a “race-identifying term” directed at “white folks being poked fun at for a certain set of behaviors.”

You agree it is a race specific pejorative. Your argument is that you want the use of a racial slur to be accepted.

[Tarc]

188. Thank you for the alt-right talking point

[fleabiscuit]

195. +1

[catrose]

165. Does it matter if you're in the South?

I'm from the deepest South, and people are so proud of being white that I'm amazed they wouldn't put that hand right up there. I'd have no problem raising my hand, not from pride (how can you be proud of an accident of genetics?), but because there's not much point in denying my pasty skin. Knowing I look like I just got off the boat from Cork, I might tell you about my First American and Sephardic Jewish genes, because they're not written on my face.

I'd be uncomfortable if you asked:
"Who's bipolar?"
"Who's been raped?"
"Who likes cats? Dogs? Fish?"
Because none of those things are obvious (maybe the white cat hair on my black Garfield T-shirt) and are personal items that I might not want to share with a room of strangers because a teacher said so, but we have a ways to go if we're comfortable with others being asked a question that we don't want to answer (that usually is obvious anyway--I know, not always).

Thank you for another lesson in privilege, no matter how much it discourages me.

[jalan48]

166. Let's Dance -Chris Rea

[TheSmarterDog]

172. K&R

[wryter2000]

173. My reaction as a white person

I know I'd be looking at the black students when you asked them to raise their hands. Not sure what that would mean about me.

When you asked the white people to raise their hands, I'd be confused because no one has ever asked me if I'm white before. But I'd raise my hand.

My understanding is many black people get tired of teaching these truths to white people and just give up. I'm glad you haven't.

[NNadir]

177. And the point is what?

This may come as a surprise, but we all get identified as members of subgroups.

The question is what do those sub-groups mean to people who find them important either in a positive or negative way.

If I raise my hand when someone asks me if I'm "an environmentalist" at a meeting of the Pruitt fan club, people will see me in a negative way.

If I give a shit what they think, that's my problem, not theirs.

Of course, if I raise my hand when asked the same question at a Sierra Club meeting, I might get applause, at least until I open my mouth to point out that I personally don't regard Sierra Club "environmentalism" as real environmentalism.

That's because I know who and what I am and no matter who tries to define me by their perception of what "group membership" means will miss who I am.

Frankly, I couldn't care less though.

Again, I know who I am.

I have flaws, and if people wish to remind me of them, I can take those reminders positively or negatively. I generally am uninterested in being lectured on who I am by people who see what "subgroup" I'm in before they bother to find out who I am beyond their predefined "group."

Frankly all I've learned in this purported (and somewhat tiresome) "teaching moment" is what Wypipo means. I thought it was some kind of internet abbreviation that I'm too old to know about. It's shown up in some titles here, and I said to myself, "What the hell is that?" but wasn't so interested in it as to investigate it deeply.

If, in fact, it is a racist slur or if it isn't, I couldn't care less. Racist slurs don't mean very much to me other than to define the kind of person I am speaking with, something that will define whether or not I should invest time with them, which assuredly their use of represents an indicator.

If you want to make your life about the study of racism, that's a choice. Many people have done this, often to good result, Ghandi, Mandela, King, J.M Coetzee, many others; others have focused their lives on race because they're Nazis or Klansmen or some such thing. If you make this choice, to focus on race, it has no intrinsic value; it can be a force for doing honorable things, dishonorable things, and things which are difficult to glean, good in some ways, bad in others.

While I abhor racism, I abhor a lot of other things as well, for example, poverty, war, environmental degradation and the general contempt for science on both the far left and the far right.

Racism may at some level be involved in these issues to some extent, but it's not even being close to everything involved in them.

[fleabiscuit]

196. Uh... what?

[sheshe2]

182. You were/are one hell of a teacher.

[XRubicon]

184. The 2017 Wypipo Awards

https://www.theroot.com/the-2017-wypipo-awards-1821347209

Not offensive as long as you are not Hillary Clinton or a white woman, other than that...

[Nonhlanhla]

185. Thank you for a very insightful post.

I am a white South African (who has lived in the US for years), and I also work with students, often with a specific focus on diversity and inclusion. (I might have to copy your exercise!) One thing that has always struck me is that white Americans don't generally think of themselves as white - just as "normal." That has always surprised me. Growing up in South Africa meant that I was also privileged unfairly by white supremacy, but since whites are a minority group there, we were very aware of our whiteness, and for those of us on the left, of the issues that come with that. So I think some of that has been different for me, and the white assumption of normativity here has been strange. I think it is partly due to privilege, but I also wonder if it doesn't have something to do with the fact that the only people who explicitly and proudly claim their whiteness are rabid racists, which makes it rather difficult for non-racist( or less racist?) whites to claim their whiteness in any explicit way. Anyway, just rambling, thinking "out loud."

And I think whypipi is funny...

[redgreenandblue]

186. "black" describes a shared cultural experience, while "white" does not.

I think that is at least part of the reason. The words "black" and "white" are used in widely different ways. In the USA "black" is much more than a skin color while "white" ... really is not.

A person who is one quarter Russian Ashkenazi, one quarter Italian and one two quarters Irish is "white". So is a person who is half German and half British. Do they have much in common culturally? Maybe or maybe not. Are Jews "white"? Are Asians? In many ways "white" is just shorthand for "none of the above" (unless you buy into "white identitarianism" that is...).

When you say "white" I'm wondering how light my skin has to actually be to qualify.

[kwassa]

214. I disagree. Whites do have a shared cultural experience, called privilege.

And white Americans share the cultural norm as their own. White is the default culture in this country. This is why they think they don't have a culture, because they are swimming in it.

[EffieBlack]

216. True!

It's just not openly characterized by color - it's called "American Heritage" - but it means the same thing.

[guillaumeb]

187. Simplistic.

Far too much so.

[EffieBlack]

190. Drat! I've been caught red-handed!

I should have known someone needs to get up pretty early to pull one over on you.

[wildeyed]

192. If you're bothered by the term wypipo

you are probably a wypipo. Wypipo need to grow some skin.

Thank you for the well written essay.

[Soxfan58]

201. I choose to not use derogatory labels

To describe other races. Is it so bad to expect the same. I agree a few of my race are assholes (One derogatory label I don't mind using), they had a convention this weekend. But not me and not most of the good people who post here.

[EffieBlack]

203. Kick

[ehrnst]

204. Kicked and recced. (nt)

[IronLionZion]

211. Every time a DUer feels uncomfortable by something posted here

it is a very important learning opportunity.

You may have just gotten a taste of something that others have gone through our whole lives. Learn from it. Understand our fellow DUers better. And we all become a little bit closer as a community.

[LeftInTX]

212. Interesting:

I probably wouldn't raise my hand either.

I'm not proud of being white.
There is no pride in it.
There is also that Neo-Nazi, KKK, alt-right counter culture, which I would not want to associate with.

If someone asked if I was Armenian, my hand would go right up. Cuz I'm Armenian and proud!

[EffieBlack]

213. But this wasn't about being proud or not. It was just a description.

[Kentonio]

215. Really impressive teaching method.

Things that make people stop and think are great ways to open minds.

[Gothmog]

217. From your posts, I guess that you were a member of the bar

That is an interesting law school experiment. Two of my children are lawyers and they tease me that I took the bar on a stone tablet.

I am white and I have no issue with these terms.

[EffieBlack]

218. Haha - yes, I am

And I, too, took the bar back in the Stone Age. We didn’t even have LAPTOPS!

[Gothmog]

219. We had to use blue books in my day

Both of my children took the bar on their laptops. When I graduated, we were happy to have a fax machine that was 6 minutes a page. Later it was four minutes a page and by the time we got lap tops and e-mail it was down to three pages a minute.

[EffieBlack]

220. The only thing worse than writing in blue books

was having to grade a few hundred of them. AAaaackkk!!!

[geardaddy]

224. Excellent post!

K&R

[NatBurner]

225. his is the best breakdown i've seen in here so far

thx for this