Sun May 6, 2018, 03:50 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
Empathy has to flow both ways
You can't have empathy if you're not willing to give it back.
I think many of us at DU expect empathy but are wholly unable or unwilling to offer any in return. I think maybe I have finally put my finger on the real issue that I have with this place, generally. At one time I did get empathy here and still find it in some. But then there are some hard liners who will go so far as to use my expectations against me. That's a shame.
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49 replies, 1915 views
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Author | Time | Post |
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Cary | May 2018 | OP |
elleng | May 2018 | #1 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #3 | |
elleng | May 2018 | #4 | |
elocs | May 2018 | #2 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #7 | |
LakeArenal | May 2018 | #5 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #6 | |
LakeArenal | May 2018 | #9 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #17 | |
Heartstrings | May 2018 | #8 | |
elocs | May 2018 | #10 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #11 | |
elocs | May 2018 | #13 | |
brer cat | May 2018 | #15 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #16 | |
elocs | May 2018 | #18 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #19 | |
brer cat | May 2018 | #20 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #21 | |
Boomerproud | May 2018 | #12 | |
elocs | May 2018 | #14 | |
Gothmog | May 2018 | #22 | |
NCTraveler | May 2018 | #23 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #24 | |
NCTraveler | May 2018 | #25 | |
Hortensis | May 2018 | #30 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #31 | |
Behind the Aegis | May 2018 | #26 | |
vlyons | May 2018 | #27 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #32 | |
vlyons | May 2018 | #34 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #35 | |
vlyons | May 2018 | #44 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #45 | |
vlyons | May 2018 | #48 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #49 | |
EffieBlack | May 2018 | #28 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #36 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #37 | |
EffieBlack | May 2018 | #39 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #41 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #42 | |
EffieBlack | May 2018 | #38 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #43 | |
WhiteTara | May 2018 | #29 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #33 | |
JI7 | May 2018 | #40 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #46 | |
Cary | May 2018 | #47 |
Response to Cary (Original post)
Sun May 6, 2018, 03:56 PM
elleng (104,558 posts)
1. You're right kind of, it SHOULD flow both ways,
and too often doesn't do that here.
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Response to elleng (Reply #1)
Sun May 6, 2018, 04:05 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
3. It's been a disappointment
Smart people should be empathetic. We are in this together.
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Response to Cary (Reply #3)
Sun May 6, 2018, 04:09 PM
elleng (104,558 posts)
4. Yes indeed we are in this together.
I and others may expect too much from 'smart' people; I'm often disappointed.
' the feeling that you understand and share another person's experiences and emotions : the ability to share someone else's feelings.' |
Response to Cary (Original post)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to elocs (Reply #2)
Sun May 6, 2018, 04:19 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
7. Empathy is one of my elements when I define liberalism
We are about fairness and spreading power around. We are.about enlightened self interest, as opposed to Ayn Rand/"conservative" rational selfishness.
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Response to Cary (Original post)
Sun May 6, 2018, 04:13 PM
LakeArenal (16,511 posts)
5. Yes a lot more empathy...
A lot less real or faux outrage.
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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #5)
Sun May 6, 2018, 04:16 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
6. I can get the outrage from #fakepresident cult followers
Right?
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Response to Cary (Reply #6)
Sun May 6, 2018, 04:44 PM
LakeArenal (16,511 posts)
9. Absolutely. AND I didn't need any "explaining".
Hope we fight this hard on Nov. 2018. Less than Six months away ?
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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #9)
Sun May 6, 2018, 07:16 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
17. "Explaining"
Thanks for giving me this thought.
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Response to Cary (Original post)
Sun May 6, 2018, 04:35 PM
Heartstrings (6,569 posts)
8. Yes it is a shame....
Generally I think there's more empathy on du than other sites. Lately I'm sorting some questionable threads dealing with empathy and tolerance. It's for me to sort, I certainly don't need help.....Just in case anyone feels the need to question what I'm sorting through my head. Just don't go there......my head, my thoughts.
FWIW.....We need more empathy across the board. |
Response to Cary (Original post)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to elocs (Reply #10)
Sun May 6, 2018, 05:01 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
11. That's a bit more dramatic than what I referred to.
But ok. I'll take it.
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Response to Cary (Reply #11)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to elocs (Reply #13)
Sun May 6, 2018, 06:21 PM
brer cat (14,354 posts)
15. Must we have equality of empathy?
I have great empathy with, for example, a poor single parent struggling to balance work and family obligations but not with Vanessa Trump. Does that mean I have to turn in my liberal card? Or does it make me a "bad" liberal? What if I have compassion but not empathy? I think in your example, I might find compassion for the young man as he faces certain death, but I sure don't think I would feel empathy.
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Response to brer cat (Reply #15)
Sun May 6, 2018, 07:14 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
16. No one has to anything
We don't have to form a strong coalition to defeat the fascists. I don't think anyone is directing us to that end. Are they?
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Response to Cary (Reply #16)
Sun May 6, 2018, 07:18 PM
elocs (21,628 posts)
18. "No one has to anything" Right, neither do I. I'm out.
Response to elocs (Reply #18)
Sun May 6, 2018, 07:30 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
19. I am wrestling with something that has nothing to do with you or what you have said
I didn't intend to offend you and I'm sorry if I did.
My point was that we don't have to be smart or nice or anything efficacious or good. I was not suggesting that we should not be good. Quite the contrary. |
Response to Cary (Reply #16)
Sun May 6, 2018, 08:37 PM
brer cat (14,354 posts)
20. Of course not.
I was actually responding to "self-deleted" who seemed to be making the point that we must have empathy for all, including men who like to target shoot with live girls. I have an issue with that concept and was trying to clarify.
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Response to brer cat (Reply #20)
Sun May 6, 2018, 08:43 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
21. Ugh
I know.
I'm having a tough time with some of the stuff going on here. Sorry. |
Response to Cary (Original post)
Sun May 6, 2018, 05:09 PM
Boomerproud (4,378 posts)
12. True. The same could be said for respect.
That is not just a problem on DU.
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Response to Boomerproud (Reply #12)
elocs This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to Cary (Original post)
Mon May 7, 2018, 03:21 PM
Gothmog (92,065 posts)
22. K&R
This is the DU member formerly known as Gothmog.
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Response to Cary (Original post)
Mon May 7, 2018, 03:32 PM
NCTraveler (30,481 posts)
23. It does not have to flow both ways.
I have shown empathy to people I know would never return it. That is not a metric that is important to showing empathy. Showing empathy is personal, not collective.
I have seen and shown a lot of empathy around DU. It's not needed across the board. |
Response to NCTraveler (Reply #23)
Mon May 7, 2018, 03:46 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
24. I'm sick and tired of the non-constructive conflict
If you have a better solution I defer to you, but this current thing that we do to each other here has to be the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
I want to fight Reublicans, not people here. |
Response to Cary (Reply #24)
Mon May 7, 2018, 03:56 PM
NCTraveler (30,481 posts)
25. Education is the solution.
Not always pretty how it happens. Doesn't always work, either.
I agree with you about the non-constructive conflict comment. It is completely different from the previous metric of empathy. People here are going to fight. That is a fact. We have serious reasons to fight as well. I'm aware of a number of racists and blatant sexists who post here regularly. While some think this board is some kind of monolith, it is anything but. "I want to fight Reublicans, not people here." Some here are every bit as bad as Republicans. One current poster spent the who general election last time on another board promoting the Clinton email "scandal". Don't think that because they post here that they are your friends. Women and the LGBT community know that all too well around these parts. |
Response to NCTraveler (Reply #25)
Mon May 7, 2018, 04:46 PM
Hortensis (43,911 posts)
30. Agree empathy is an individual thing that occurs within a person.
If empathy was some kind of deal to be struck, it wouldn't be empathy.
Empathy has no costs and no conditions to be met, only our ability to imagine oneself as another person in order to think and feel as he does. It certainly does not require agreement or approval, only the ability and willingness to acquire this depth of understanding of other people. Most of the time we don't try, of course. Plus, understanding people we want to abuse has a way of taking the fun out of indulging our own faults. And some leaps are just too big, like into Trump's mind. ![]() |
Response to NCTraveler (Reply #25)
Mon May 7, 2018, 05:56 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
31. I get that but I have been wedged
Not with racists. I prefer to be wedged from racists.
I am wedged from good friends. That's unacceptable. |
Response to Cary (Original post)
Mon May 7, 2018, 04:00 PM
Behind the Aegis (47,361 posts)
26. True, but I think it was killed in a murder-suicide with "Civility".
Like you, I see some people who are very open, accommodating, and willing to learn, then there are the rest.
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Response to Cary (Original post)
Mon May 7, 2018, 04:18 PM
vlyons (7,718 posts)
27. So do you expect to get something back for your generosity?
Well it's no wonder that you get disappointed. Boddhicitta is loving kindness that is generated for the benefit of others without the expectation of getting anything in return. The expectation of getting something in return is a selfish aim, and contaminates the intention of doing a good deed for others.
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Response to vlyons (Reply #27)
Mon May 7, 2018, 05:58 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
32. What makes you think empathy is generosity?
Response to Cary (Reply #32)
Mon May 7, 2018, 06:24 PM
vlyons (7,718 posts)
34. What makes you think that it isn't?
Generosity isn't just about giving alms to the poor. There are such ideals as a generosity of compassion, generosity of spirit, generosity of forgiveness, generosity of loving kindness. The point is that expecting to get something back for being a kind person defeats the altruistic aspiration.
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Response to vlyons (Reply #34)
Mon May 7, 2018, 06:35 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
35. Look up enlightened self interest
That's not rational selfishness which is Ayn Rand's perversion of the ideology our nation was founded on. Our founders knew that the general welfare referred to in the Preamble of the Constitution was no zero sum game. Our function is to enable everyone to reach their own potential. That requires empathy, one of the most noble of human endeavors, scoffed at and eschewed by Rand.
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Response to Cary (Reply #35)
Tue May 8, 2018, 12:40 AM
vlyons (7,718 posts)
44. You don't need to teach me about empathy
I'm a Buddhist. We value altruistic compassion far above selfishness.
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Response to vlyons (Reply #44)
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:02 AM
Cary (11,517 posts)
45. This is a discussion board
I don't need to be here at all. My presence is optional and I discuss as I see fit within the rules. Need has nothing to do with it.
Buddhist or not if you can glean something from my words that's great. If you cannot then it's no skin off your nose. I am more into Taoist philosophy, myself. Being an empathatic Buddhist perhaps you know what that means. |
Response to Cary (Original post)
Mon May 7, 2018, 04:21 PM
EffieBlack (14,213 posts)
28. Empathy doesn't require, nor should a truly empathetic person expect, reciprocation or
complain when they don’t get it.
That’s the whole point ... |
Response to EffieBlack (Reply #28)
Mon May 7, 2018, 06:39 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
36. Says who?
How can I empathize and help you if you're self destructive? Have you ever enabled an addict?
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Response to Cary (Reply #36)
Mon May 7, 2018, 06:44 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
37. I should add...
An addict lacks empathy. A really sick person will care only about their next fix and will unflinching I use your empathy to get it. It's not personal. That's part.of the disease and part of the horror.
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Response to Cary (Reply #37)
Mon May 7, 2018, 06:56 PM
EffieBlack (14,213 posts)
39. Then why do you expect empathy to be returned and feel slighted that it didn't happen?
Response to EffieBlack (Reply #39)
Mon May 7, 2018, 07:07 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
41. Who said I feel slighted?
Clearly you don't understand my point of view. I am trying to relate something to you that I feel that you don't understand.
All I want here is to not be wedged. I have told you that, yet you tell me that I feel slighted. I understand your perspective. I appreciate what you're saying. I am better off for it. You don't need to agree with me but you do need to understand what I am trying to tell you. We have a guy in the White House who feels there are some good Klansmen and Nazis. Do you really need to be bickering with me? |
Response to EffieBlack (Reply #39)
Mon May 7, 2018, 07:09 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
42. And I didnt mean to infer you are self destructive or an addict
Sorry. I meant that as an example only.
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Response to Cary (Reply #36)
Mon May 7, 2018, 06:54 PM
EffieBlack (14,213 posts)
38. That's a different issue
Response to EffieBlack (Reply #38)
Mon May 7, 2018, 07:12 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
43. It's an example that illustrates why your point is not well taken.
Response to Cary (Original post)
Mon May 7, 2018, 04:41 PM
WhiteTara (27,002 posts)
29. empathy doesn't flow. One is either empathic
or one is not.
Here's a big hug. ![]() |
Response to WhiteTara (Reply #29)
Mon May 7, 2018, 06:00 PM
Cary (11,517 posts)
33. What's going on is that we have a fascist in the White House,
And scoundrels and traitors running Congress, and we are being wedged over race when we really don't disagree.
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Response to Cary (Original post)
Mon May 7, 2018, 07:00 PM
JI7 (83,281 posts)
40. No. Empathy doesn't have to flow both ways
Response to JI7 (Reply #40)
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:06 AM
Cary (11,517 posts)
46. You insist on living in a spiritually dualistic world?
When people see some things as beautiful,
Other things become ugly. When people see some things as good, Other things become bad. Tao te Ching |
Response to Cary (Original post)
Tue May 8, 2018, 08:15 AM
Cary (11,517 posts)
47. It all flows. You must let go to allow it
Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done. The world is sacred. It can't be improved. If you tamper with it, you'll ruin it. If you treat it like an object, you'll lose it. There is a time for being ahead, a time for being behind; a time for being in motion, a time for being at rest; a time for being vigorous, a time for being exhausted; a time for being safe, a time for being in danger. The Master sees things as they are, without trying to control them. She lets them go their own way, and resides at the center of the circle.
The center of the wheel is the most important part, like the center of a vessel. The center is empty. |