General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI know many DUers hate him but I love Ralph Nader
He's on Ari right now
Marie Marie
(9,999 posts)Snotcicles
(9,089 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,121 posts)single-handedly caused the defeat of Al Gore and gave the 2000 election and presidency to Shrub?
roscoeroscoe
(1,369 posts)I mean, c'mon!
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,121 posts)GeorgeGist
(25,308 posts)InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,121 posts)cynatnite
(31,011 posts)DURHAM D
(32,603 posts)or at least he was. I changed channels. Hate that ratfucker.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)DURHAM D
(32,603 posts)Why is he giving that shithead air time?
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)He began the campaign to get real public, judicial and other government support to make car manufacturers produce safer cars.
Although controversial as to whether the Corvair was really less safe than other cars of its time, the Corvair lawsuit began a movement for consumer rights and product safety that continues today
About Ralph Nader:
Born in Connecticut in 1934, Ralph Nader went on to study law and became a crusader of car-safety reform in the 1960s. In 1971 he founded the consumer advocacy group Public Citizen and has continued to be an opponent of unchecked corporate power. Beginning in the 1990s, Nader entered the U.S. presidential race multiple times, with a notable run as candidate for the Green Party in the 2000 election.
https://www.biography.com/people/ralph-nader-9419799
When I was a child, back in the 1940s and 1950s, the weekend car accident fatality numbers were announced on the radio, and they were very frightening.
In 1937, there were 29.357 fatalities in car accidents per 100,000 in population.
That number declined, but in 1969, it was 26.418 per 100,000 in population.
In 2016, after all the regulations were passed to install seat belts and to improve the safety of automobiles in many other ways (including many not required by law necessarily), the death toll in auto accidents per 100,000 in population fell to only 11.59.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
Ralph Nader's work has saved many, many lives. He is to be thanked.
But young people don't know what he did for our country.
He was just a lawyer. He sued an automobile company and he was instrumental in starting the Public Citizen movement and organization.
Really, we should all thank him. He has made our country a better place. What more can we ask of a person?
I understand that many object to his politics, but his accomplishments are so amazing we should all stand in awe of him.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Nader is tainted now and his derision of the Democratic Party is well known.
Sure, I can recognize he accomplished a hell of a lot and saved lives in the past, but nothing will erase his complicit behavior since.
George II
(67,782 posts)....and if you were killed in Iraq (whether American or Iraqi or any of the "coalition" countries), you owe THAT to Nader as well.
If you were working in the WTC and were killed when they collapsed, you owe THAT to Nader as well.
Yes, there are many many many people who "owe" Nader.
lapucelle
(18,185 posts)and the Citizens United decision.
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)This is an easily foreseeable consequence. Hindering the Democratic nominees chances you are risking horrible economic policies for the poor, a more militant and belligerent foreign policy in general, i.e. probably more wars, a poisoning of the environment, etc.
This isn't even slightly hard.
easttexaslefty
(1,554 posts)Tribalceltic
(1,000 posts)Airbags kill children and small women. Seatbelt laws are another way of pulling people over for no reason.
Road Design and vehicle design have helped make crashes more "survivable" , possibly causing people to drive like idiots.
Nader ignored safety features that might have actually helped, like auto braking.
He is a huge reason we had 8 years of Bush.
F*ck Him and the horse he rode in on, and the gave to Jill Stein
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)supposed to be in child or baby seats in the back of the car.
The statistics on deaths from automobile accidents speak for themselves.
I lived during the 40s until today, and the statistics at the website I linked to speak for themselves.
Nader did not all by himself suggest every good safety improvement on cars, but he started the movement, the social awareness that caused auto companies to improve their products.
And government helped by passing regulations that required auto manufacturers to improve their products.
I'm not talking off the top of my hat. I have read about this quite a bit.
And Public Citizen is a wonderful organization.
ProfessorGAC
(64,817 posts)All of it. I'll grant he may have helped accelerate the move toward car safety being increased, but there were engineers at every auto company in the world already tasked with finding ways to make driving safer.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)consumers to buy based at least in part on safety were the big hurdles that Nader helped America overcome.
Plus getting safety features enacted into law.
Have you looked at the statistics on traffic deaths? I posted the link.
I remember the fight. I have read the history of the fight.
It's pretty shocking.
ProfessorGAC
(64,817 posts)I actually agree with your premise, but i didn't say that it was easy to adopt them. But, it is an engineering fact that the technology of auto safety was well ahead of the curve that people like Nader (and he wasn't the only one) helped push.
Never said advocacy to adopt wasn't important. Just saying those things were already going on, so the auto makers were already paying people to come up with these designs.
The higher ups didn't enthusiastically retool the assembly lines to start putting them in until public pressure forced their hand. There's no question about that part.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)add the safety features. The companies did not want to increase the cost of their products even if it would save lives. At least that was apparently the reason it was so hard to get the safety features placed into the production line.
hunter
(38,301 posts)They needed a scapegoat, someone to point to when they had to spend money doing what had to be done.
Nader was a tool, just as he was later a tool of the Republican Party. He accepted the roles eagerly.
I've got zero respect for U.S.A. car culture or U.S.A. "consumer" economy.
Personally I boycott all of it as best I can.
manor321
(3,344 posts)He's literally one of the main proponents of the "both parties are terrible" crowd. He gave us Bush in 2000.
malaise
(268,640 posts)RhodeIslandOne
(5,042 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)But screw us all because their own ego.
If they cared as much as they said, they would admit that one party is significantly better than the other, and act accordingly.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)His narcissism is repulsive. Apologizing for Russian backed Jill Stein.
Twenty years later people are still in denial about him, apparently. I wouldnt piss on Ralph Nader if he was on fire.
RestoreAmerica2020
(3,434 posts)malaise
(268,640 posts)for starters
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)Helping Shrub getting elected FUCK NADER.
Oh, And seat belts? Yeah. FUCK NADER.
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)Nader's true skills lie in self-promotion.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Hard to love that guy.
malaise
(268,640 posts)I did not miss that - I hate it.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)DemocRATs and bureaucRATs, all the same with this guy
BumRushDaShow
(128,359 posts)but whoever is doing the closed-caption (that I use so I can catch what I may have mid-heard) listed it correctly - at least the first time he said it.
Corgigal
(9,291 posts)then me. I don't, and I see no reason why he's on Ari right now. He's not telling us anything we don't know. Green Party was used by a Russian asset, that didn't come up.
malaise
(268,640 posts)for you to decide who should be on Ari?
Corgigal
(9,291 posts)cause if I did then he wouldn't be on.
lovemydogs
(575 posts)The greens had the blindness to nominate Stein but, the dems need to look at the agenda of the third parties instead of being so scared of them. And the dems need to dump the corporate worshipping
MythosMaster
(445 posts)and an empty suit, she is just like all those perpetual candidates that cash in on running for office they are not qualified and have no chance.
If Trump ran on a third party, Hillary would be president now.
BumRushDaShow
(128,359 posts)For relevant historical perspective - notably the "Nader vs Bork" case that challenged Bork's (as Nixon's Solicitor General) firing of Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox.
Interesting that I found a transcript of one of Ari's older shows from back in January that showed similar Nader clips - http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/msnbc-live-with-ari-melber/2018-01-26
(Remember that Melber wasn't born when Watergate was going on)
Autumn
(44,962 posts)wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)So I ended up buying a '65 Mustang GT. Thanks Ralph. I still drive Mustangs.
malaise
(268,640 posts)Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)It was just as safe if not safer than other vehicles in its class. By the time the DOT investigations contradicted Nader the bad press from the book had already put the vehicle out of production. If anything Nader killed the innovation which had been making vehicles safer over the previous several decades.
Autumn
(44,962 posts)good faults and bad faults. And no one makes no mistakes.
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,560 posts)fire Sessions and Rosenstein and put Giuliani in as the Att. Gen. when he gets scared enough. YIKES!
jodymarie aimee
(3,975 posts)brilliant man....he is speaking truth to power as he always has. Not many like him, no agenda, he is purity. DEMS will always have to own losing to this crook Trump. We should have won in a landslide. We all know this. Mal, me and everyone here.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,288 posts)MuseRider
(34,095 posts)lovemydogs
(575 posts)People have the right to run and if democrats are so scared of third parties, then take away their agenda: housing, college, healthcare and lay off bending over to the corporate class
malaise
(268,640 posts)We have a winner
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Please tell me Ari asked about this:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/fake-green-party-candidate-exposed-as-having-ties-to-republican-congressman
Autumn
(44,962 posts)Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)Autumn
(44,962 posts)Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)United.
jrthin
(4,832 posts)Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)single handedly set environmental law back a generation...they should change their names to 'fuck the environment (send a check)'.
mahatmakanejeeves
(57,283 posts)Autumn
(44,962 posts)YMMV.
vsrazdem
(2,177 posts)I've never agreed with the concept of some that we should have just 2 parties. If people vote for third parties or more, they must align more with their message. Don't blame the voters, change the message.
Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)I would have though people would realize this. Democrats are your only shot at stopping the GOP...you vote third party, you vote for a Republican to destroy all progressive policy. We support the Democratic Party here...not third parties.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)guests who advocate for third parties which is really advocating for the GOP.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)rather than acquiesce to the better and more reasonable driver.
Anyone can go on TV and speak truth to power, but it doesn't mean they're worth following.
MyOwnPeace
(16,913 posts)That's my thinking also.
Yes, he HAS done many good things, but.......................
(see: Rove supports Nadar - says it all...................)
Judas WAS selected as one of the "honored 12"
How did THAT turn out?
Gothmog
(144,883 posts)I will never forgive nader Rove funded Nader in 2000 and 2004 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html
Furthermore, Karl Rove and the Republican Party knew this, and so they nurtured and crucially assisted Naders campaigns, both in 2000 and in 2004. On 27 October 2000, the APs Laura Meckler headlined GOP Group To Air Pro-Nader TV Ads. She opened: Hoping to boost Ralph Nader in states where he is threatening to hurt Al Gore, a Republican group is launching TV ads featuring Nader attacking the vice president [Mr. Gore]. ... Al Gore is suffering from election year delusion if he thinks his record on the environment is anything to be proud of, Nader says [in the commercial]. An announcer interjects: Whats Al Gores real record? Nader says: Eight years of principles betrayed and promises broken. Mecklers report continued: A spokeswoman for the Green Party nominee said that his campaign had no control over what other organizations do with Naders speeches. Bushs people - the group sponsoring this particular ad happened to be the Republican Leadership Council - knew exactly what they were doing, even though the liberal suckers who voted so carelessly for Ralph Nader obviously did not. Anyone who drives a car the way those liberal fools voted, faces charges of criminal negligence, at the very least. But this time, the entire nation crashed as a result; not merely a single car.....
On July 9th, the San Francisco Chronicle headlined GOP Doners Funding Nader: Bush Supporters Give Independents Bid a Financial Lift, and reported that the Nader campaign has received a recent windfall of contributions from deep-pocketed Republicans with a history of big contributions to the party, according to an analysis of federal records. Perhaps these contributors were Ambassador Egans other friends. Mr. Egans wife was now listed among the Nader contributors. Another listed was Nijad Fares, a Houston businessman, who donated $200,000 to the Bush inaugural committee and who donated $2,000 each to the Nader effort and the Bush campaign this year. Furthermore, Ari Berman reported 7 October 2004 at the Nation, under Swift Boat Veterans for Nader, that some major right-wing funders of a Republican smear campaign against Senator John Kerrys Vietnam service contributed also $13,500 to the Nader campaign, and that the Republican Party of Michigan gathered ninety percent of Naders signatures in their state (90%!) to place Nader on the ballot so Bush could win that swing states 17 electoral votes. Clearly, the word had gone out to Bushs big contributors: Help Ralphie boy! In fact, on 15 September 2005, John DiStaso of the Manchester Union-Leader, reported that, A year ago, as the Presidential general election campaign raged in battleground state New Hampshire, consumer advocate Ralph Nader found his way onto the ballot, with the help of veteran Republican strategist David Carney and the Carney-owned Norway Hill Associates consulting firm.
It was obvious, based upon the 2000 election results, that a dollar contributed to Nader in the 2004 contest would probably be a more effective way to achieve a Bush win against Kerry in the U.S. Presidential election than were perhaps even ten dollars contributed to Bush. This was a way of peeling crucial votes off from Bushs real opponent - votes that otherwise would have gone to the Democrat. Thats why the smartest Republican money in the 2004 Presidential election was actually going to Nader, even more so than to Bush himself: these indirect Bush contributions provided by far the biggest bang for the right-wing buck.
In 2016 the Republicans, and the Russians helped, did the same thing. Different candidate same strategy.
mcar
(42,278 posts)He lied. He campaigned vigorously in FL, with that idiotic "both parties are the same" crap. He made the vote close enough for SCOTUS to steal it.
I live here. I won't forget or forgive.
Gothmog
(144,883 posts)Rove got his money's worth from Nader. Nader lied and actually worked to help Rove elect Bush
mcar
(42,278 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)By running attack ads on HRC before July of 2016.
Gothmog
(144,883 posts)I noticed that also
standingtall
(2,785 posts)in part due to Ralph Nader splitting the vote in Florda as well as democrats refusing to vote Democratic in 2000.
Gothmog
(144,883 posts)I am having to deal with the effects of the gutting of the voting rights act due to Nader's stupidity and arrogance
LisaM
(27,791 posts)Nader flat-out lied about how he wouldn't run in states where the race was competitive. He also said Gore and Bush were so alike there "wasn't a dime's worth of distance" between them. I think the environment would beg to differ on that.
Nader had a lot of respect when he was working as a consumer advocate, but it's like someone flipped a switch in his head. By the time he was running for President, he was harsh and rasping. I remember all kinds of stories going around about how he treated people who worked for him.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Naturally he's pissing all over the Dems and he'll almost certainly tell everyone to forget about the distraction of KremlinGate so the dudebros are practically orgasmic right now...
Kucinich, Nader...Where are they digging up these fossils from?
Bleacher Creature
(11,250 posts)Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)Getting George W. Bush elected and causing:
The Iraq War
the deadliest terrorist attack in history
8 lost years on global warming
The loss of civil rights in America
Our government legalizing torture
The greatest economic crisis in three generations
Oh and, a long time ago he made a big stink about the Chevy Corvair, a car which would later prove to not be anywhere near as bad as Nader had claimed and effectively killed interest in smaller, compact, European style cars from American manufacturers.
Watta guy!
https://jalopnik.com/brave-man-tries-to-roll-himself-over-in-a-corvair-and-m-1820521301
https://www.coolridesonline.net/news-blog/was-the-corvair-as-bad-as-ralph-nader-claimed/
Hekate
(90,521 posts)malaise
(268,640 posts)Stallion
(6,473 posts)...Congrats on their contributions in electing Bush and trump
samnsara
(17,602 posts)...many of the traits i hate.
Gothmog
(144,883 posts)Nader gave the election to bush in 2000 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html
Nader-voters who spurned Democrat Al Gore to vote for Nader ended up swinging both Florida and New Hampshire to Bush in 2000. Charlie Cook, the editor of the Cook Political Report and political analyst for National Journal, called "Florida and New Hampshire" simply "the two states that Mr. Nader handed to the Bush-Cheney ticket," when Cook was writing about "The Next Nader Effect," in The New York Times on 9 March 2004. Cook said, "Mr. Nader, running as the Green Party nominee, cost Al Gore two states, Florida and New Hampshire, either of which would have given the vice president [Gore] a victory in 2000. In Florida, which George W. Bush carried by 537 votes, Mr. Nader received nearly 100,000 votes [nearly 200 times the size of Bush's Florida 'win']. In New Hampshire, which Mr. Bush won by 7,211 votes, Mr. Nader pulled in more than 22,000 [three times the size of Bush's 'win' in that state]." If either of those two states had gone instead to Gore, then Bush would have lost the 2000 election; we would never have had a U.S. President George W. Bush, and so Nader managed to turn not just one but two key toss-up states for candidate Bush, and to become the indispensable person making G.W. Bush the President of the United States -- even more indispensable, and more important to Bush's "electoral success," than were such huge Bush financial contributors as Enron Corporation's chief Ken Lay.
All polling studies that were done, for both the 2000 and the 2004 U.S. Presidential elections, indicated that Nader drained at least 2 to 5 times as many voters from the Democratic candidate as he did from the Republican Bush. (This isn't even considering throw-away Nader voters who would have stayed home and not voted if Nader had not been in the race; they didn't count in these calculations at all.) Nader's 97,488 Florida votes contained vastly more than enough to have overcome the official Jeb Bush / Katherine Harris / count, of a 537-vote Florida "victory" for G.W. Bush. In their 24 April 2006 detailed statistical analysis of the 2000 Florida vote, "Did Ralph Nader Spoil a Gore Presidency?" (available on the internet), Michael C. Herron of Dartmouth and Jeffrey B. Lewis of UCLA stated flatly, "We find that ... Nader was a spoiler for Gore." David Paul Kuhn, CBSNews.com Chief Political Writer, headlined on 27 July 2004, "Nader to Crash Dems Party?" and he wrote: "In 2000, Voter News Service exit polling showed that 47 percent of Nader's Florida supporters would have voted for Gore, and 21 percent for Mr. Bush, easily covering the margin of Gore's loss." Nationwide, Harvard's Barry C. Burden, in his 2001 paper at the American Political Science Association, "Did Ralph Nader Elect George W. Bush?" (also on the internet) presented "Table 3: Self-Reported Effects of Removing Minor Party Candidates," showing that in the VNS exit polls, 47.7% of Nader's voters said they would have voted instead for Gore, 21.9% said they would have voted instead for Bush, and 30.5% said they wouldn't have voted in the Presidential race, if Nader were had not been on the ballot. (This same table also showed that the far tinier nationwide vote for Patrick Buchanan would have split almost evenly between Bush and Gore if Buchanan hadn't been in the race: Buchanan was not a decisive factor in the outcome.) The Florida sub-sample of Nader voters was actually too small to draw such precise figures, but Herron and Lewis concluded that approximately 60% of Florida's Nader voters would have been Gore voters if the 2000 race hadn't included Nader. Clearly, Ralph Nader drew far more votes from Gore than he did from Bush, and on this account alone was an enormous Republican asset in 2000.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)randr
(12,409 posts)He took on the auto industry and made our world safer.
While the Corvair was responsible for deaths by poor design, it was also the only American compact vs. VWs and a number of new imports.
As Ralph waged his war against GM the Ford Pinto was killing more people due to a similar design flaw.
You may be interested in looking into Ralphs associations w the Ford Motor Co.
Following the suit against GM and the utter destruction of Corvair production America began building bigger gas guzzling muscle cars. It took a decade for us to wise up and start completing in the world market for compact fuel efficient cars.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,105 posts)he interfered and GAVE US bush as prez I didnt love him anymore
Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)shitty SCOTUS judges, shitty tax cuts, Katrina...the towers fell in New York because Nader helped elect George Bush.
Edited to include...he crashed the economy causing millions to lose everything.
MyOwnPeace
(16,913 posts)he was looking out for our best interests, right?
Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)MyOwnPeace
(16,913 posts)Ain't THAT the truth!!!
Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)Sneederbunk
(14,275 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Another Jill Stein.
appalachiablue
(41,102 posts)mcar
(42,278 posts)But I detest that phony.
Stuart G
(38,403 posts)Yes...absolutely Yes...Nader and the seat belt laws have saved tens of thousands of lives.
Yes...absolutely Yes...Nader in the 2000 election, may have, probably did tip the election to Bush..
that election of Bush cost hundreds of billions and killed tens of thousands of lives...
Nader was clearly behind safety regulations that made cars a whole lot safer....and saved lives..sorry it is the truth....54000 killed on the highways in 79
....35,000 killed last year, even though tens of millions more cars than 79 and tens of millions of more people than in 79..(yes those numbers are accurate, you can look them up)..In addition safety devices have lessoned injuries greatly..) know someone whose life saved by an airbag?..
.............By electing Bush in 2000, the number of deaths in the Iraq war..?? U.S. troops?? ,,,,,,4,424 total deaths and 31,952 wounded in action . Iraqis killed, tens of thousands..perhaps has many as 150,000..Government changed..country more divided..was it worth it?? ...my opinion...saved lives, yes..and a complete asshole...couldn't shut the fuck up and stay out of the 2000 election..
MyOwnPeace
(16,913 posts)You've covered the reason for the disparity with regard to Ralph Nader.
As you've cited, great reasons to love him - and other reasons to despise him.
I'm sure that we could make this thread go on forever, only to be interrupted for reasons NOT to nominate IQ45 for the Nobel Peace Prize!
Great response - thank you!
malaise
(268,640 posts)andthat's your right
Uncle Joe
(58,265 posts)Thanks for the thread, malaise
malaise
(268,640 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,265 posts)MineralMan
(146,248 posts)low-mileage 1960 red Corvair in 1969 for $100. Great little car! Thanks, Ralph!
malaise
(268,640 posts)MineralMan
(146,248 posts)in my age group do, it would be a 60-62 Corvair, with a licence plate that read: UNSAFE
eleny
(46,166 posts)There's an inconvenient truth he pointed out.
I find it amusing how people are incensed over Nader but his message is so much like Bernie's and the things so may DUers want to see happen. Things like Medicare for all. But when certain facts are put on ignore I guess it's easier to blame Nader than face our own shortcomings as a Party.
All Gore should have broadened his recount request. And it would have been peachy if he could have won his own state.
Around here Nader has become a meme like The Olive Garden or Thom Hartmann. Strong triggers for raising blood pressure.
Take care, sis.
MyOwnPeace
(16,913 posts)There are a number of things that cost "Us - Gore" the 2000 election:
1. Supreme court
2. Poor campaign strategy by Gore
3. Supreme Court
4. 3rd. party candidate (Ralph Nader)
Yes, any one of those being "gone" would have made our world different.
And one of them is RALPH NADER.
..... .....
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin
(107,695 posts)bitching that his dividend was too small. He's a sellout.
Raine
(30,540 posts)Last edited Fri May 11, 2018, 02:46 AM - Edit history (1)
I came to terms with that. I blame the Supremes. I'm done with hating on someone because they chose to run for office which is their right to do whether I think they should've or not.
Stuart G
(38,403 posts)which.........saved tens of thousands of lives over the years...(check out auto deaths after 84 you will see a significant reduction.....)..hit this link and look at deaths after 1980..(began to go down significantly after seatbelts were required and other safety devices...1984..Just as important,,,safety regulations reduced significant injuries by tens of thousands. People with minor injuries...could have been killed without the seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones...etc..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
Nader resulted in Bush getting elected...Bush defines the word..asshole
Bush/ asshole....was so bad, resulted in Obama being elected...guess what?..Obama also saved tens of thousands of lives...with health care legislation...Would Obama have been elected, if Bush were not such a complete asshole?....what do you think?...
George II
(67,782 posts)...of bush's ineptitude and Dick Cheney's warmongering?
I don't think they balance out at all.
Stuart G
(38,403 posts)after all this is a "discussion" forum....there are people here right now at this forum,,,(maybe not on this thread) ...whose lives were saved by the safety belts and airbags., or family members.
......so for them..it does indeed balance out..
George II
(67,782 posts)....only to be killed by an IED in Iraq.
Nader should have stopped with seat belts and airbags.
Stuart G
(38,403 posts)It isn't pretty.
Yes. Nader was responsible for "Bush" in some states..like Florida..Ok..
Yes...he should have stopped with .."seat belts and airbags"..and he didn't.....The truth to me, is still the truth to me.....Nader is a mixed bag..
George II
(67,782 posts)ms liberty
(8,549 posts)And went down a hill, ploughing through trees before coming to rest against one. Two days before Christmas. Because of the seat belt in her car, she had nothing worse than a cracked rib and some bruising. She went on to live a healthy life for nearly six more years, before a fatal heart attack. She was my best friend, and the most important person in our lives. She got to see her only grandchild live to six before she died, and that granddaughter was old enough that she remembers her Granny to this day, when she tells her own daughter, my mother's namesake, about her. Next to that, I don't give a shit about Nader's 2000 campaign, which IMO was NOT responsible for Itaq.
WhiteTara
(29,692 posts)was done from an altruistic place but one where he was paid to ratf**k something or someone. His first hit was small cars for Detroit. Who paid him to fuck the 2000 election is unknown to me but fuck the election he did.
I forgive you this error in judgement
marybourg
(12,584 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Cant stand the self-righteous prick.
marybourg
(12,584 posts)sweetloukillbot
(10,957 posts)Racist asshole
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I mean, I love Obama. But damn...
Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)no good from Nader...his election of George Bush II...cancelled out any good he eve did.
Stuart G
(38,403 posts)more of an..."asshole" ..or..." stupid fuck up." maybe "idiots delight"...
I got one more brilliant idea ...I always thought there could be no worse than ...Dubya...
nothing could be stupider, or a bigger lying sack of shit...but ....I got to tell you...I could be wrong..
dreamland
(964 posts)Some for the worse.
ProfessorGAC
(64,817 posts)He's been spectacularly wrong about a lot of stuff and never admitted he was wrong.
Corvair: Data proves he was wrong.
You mentioned seat belts. Engineers at GM were already designing those, including after market products before anyone ever heard of Nader.
And "both parties are the same" is an unforgiveable blind spot, that is so obviously wrong that i can't forget or forgive the promotion of that theme.
The_jackalope
(1,660 posts)You free-thinker, you!
kentuck
(111,049 posts)...and he felt they treated him like a lost lamb from the Democratic flock. But, I'm not sure he was ever a Democrat? However, he would probably argue that the Party left him?
Ralph Nader is a very intelligent, socially-conscious individual and many people see him as part of the "real" Democratic Party. Unfortunately, this is where the conversation usually goes on two tracks.
malaise
(268,640 posts)You nailed it
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Uncle Joe
(58,265 posts)for following their conscience.
Whether one decides to run for political office or not is what America is supposed to be all about.
I also try to consider a person's life work in the balance.
Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)did an enormous amount of damage...Trump will be worse. All the above should change their party to Republican...it is who they are...and any that think third parties are the answer should examine Europe...not the rosy picture people paint here but the reality of it...in any case our system does not nor will support third parties and those who vote for progressive third parties elect Republicans and deserve our contempt. 23,000 old people tossed out of nursing homes in Mississippi and it is because Trump was elected that this is happening and it will happen elsewhere too. Trump is a monster and those who support Greens helped elect him...as did those who supported Nader help elect George Bush...and I have nothing but disgust for people who would do this.
Uncle Joe
(58,265 posts)As for Europe, the happiest nations in the world are there.
"Finland is top of the world for happiness, according to the World Happiness Report 2018, closely followed by Norway, Denmark, Iceland, Switzerland and the Netherlands.
Nordic countries take four out of the five top spots, and are well known to be stable, safe and socially progressive. There is very little corruption, and the police and politicians are trusted."
(snip)
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/these-are-the-happiest-countries-in-the-world/
As for Trump and Bush they were inevitable products of our dysfunctional political, corporate media conglomerate, corporate domination system.
Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)I won't vote for a third party or independent candidate in any primary.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Demsrule86
(68,454 posts)Nader or Jill Stein?
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)When you have a homogenous population, there is less variation in opinon, and little dissent - much like Vermont.
Diversity is loud and raucous sometimes, and more of a challenge to get consensus, but it's the future.
And, contrary to what some claim, their economic model does not erase racism, misogyny and xenophobia.
https://dutchreview.com/featured/the-comeback-of-homophobia-in-the-netherlands/
https://dutchreview.com/culture/living-in-the-netherlands/racism-in-the-netherlands/
http://www.europeanyoungfeminists.eu/2016/11/21/a-brief-history-of-sexual-harassment-in-finland-in-one-hashtag/
https://www.cnn.com/2016/10/07/opinions/xenophobia-over-rationality-mammone/index.html
Don't let hate for our current political climate consume you, Uncle Joe. A Democracy in diverse population is messy, but diversity is a good thing.
Uncle Joe
(58,265 posts)From the same article to which you responded to
"But some of the worlds richest nations, including the US and Japan, are found much further down the list.
The disparity between wealth and happiness has caused policymakers to broaden their scope and look for other indicators to assess the health of nations, rather than just measuring economic success through GDP."
(snip)
"This report is based on international surveys in which thousands of respondents were asked to imagine a ladder with steps numbered 0 to 10 and say where they felt they stood.
And it cites six significant factors which contribute to happiness; GDP per capita, social support, life expectancy, freedom to make life choices, generosity and corruption levels."
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/03/these-are-the-happiest-countries-in-the-world/
As for us, I do believe diversity to be one of our primary strengths. I also agree it does produce more challenges in passing progressive American People friendly policies mostly because our differences make creating or widening instinctive fault lines by demagogues all the easier and for establishment/corporate conglomerate powers to practice the fault line politics of division which in effect creates a plurality of disenfranchised Americans in the tens of millions.
I love America but our political system is dysfunctional made even worse by Citizens United and that's why I support long overdue progressive change.
We as a nation should never be too proud to learn the best lessons from other nations around the world, it's that pride thing that will get you in trouble.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)The politicians in the Democratic Party have been the only ones getting progressive issues advanced in the past 40 years.
That's not blind "pride," that's a matter of record.
While Europe provides some examples of successes, we cannot replicate all of the things Europe has done. Again - a homogenous population is far more likely to consense on an issue, more likely to accept that social programs will benefit "their" people. They have smaller populations, and many of their social programs were built from the ashes of WW2. Health care for instance - if we had gone with Truman's proposal for a national health care system, it would be possible to be on par with Europe. But now we have a huge part of our economy and culture tied up with our current system. The ACA is the farthest we've gotten toward universal health care coverage, and that is a Democratic accomplishment.
Just like we may observe, but are not going to replicate, the passenger rail system that Europe has - not only because of the car culture here that didn't take as strong a foothold in Eurpot, but because the infrastructure there was built prior to cars, and the infrastructure here is used primarily for freight trains.
So, no, we aren't going to have any success trying to imitate Europe, but we can apply concepts like the public/private mechanisms they use in a program like the ACA, and move us toward a more comprehensive social safety net. The happiness list only lists characteristics of the happiest countries - not the reasons that they are. I assume that you have your own ideas on what came first...
And no, I didn't say or imply that homogenity is a guarantee of happiness. You assumed the inverse of that data point - not me. I simply pointed out that it is a unifying factor in the top happiness rated countries.
Is that clearer?
Uncle Joe
(58,265 posts)income inequality is at ridiculously tragic levels and we imprison more people than any nation on Earth
The current system of for profit "health" insurance is dysfunctional, immoral and an economic basket case.
There is no redeeming value to it.
I have always believed if you think you can't do something you're correct because you don't even try or you give it a half-hearted effort.
Having said that if we as a nation believe we can change our policies and ways of thinking for the better, then we can.
However so long as our national focus is on benefiting the less than 1% and major corporate conglomerations over the best interests of the American Public we will fail.
I don't want us to imitate Europe, I want us to excel over them
I never meant to imply that you believed "homogeneity to be a guarantee of happiness" but that it can create additional difficulties in passing progressive change because the corporate powers that be and America's oligarchs know how to play one side off against the other, at least that's what I believe.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Last edited Fri May 11, 2018, 01:25 PM - Edit history (1)
that is only been possible because of Democrats? None of that means anything to you?
You wouldn't be a straight, white male by any chance?
The ACA is the closest we have come to the European model of health care - even with the damage done to it by the GOP. It was also a Democratic accomplishment.
"Having said that if we as a nation believe we can change our policies and ways of thinking for the better, then we can."
A couple of things with that statement - "we as a nation" don't often agree - we are more divided than ever. Salespeople and politicians have a lot to gain telling people that something's possible if we just....
No, wishing doesn't make something possible - and again, you try to use the inverse to prove a statement wrong. The reason I don't jump off a roof is that I know I can't fly. Call that defeatist, or uninspired but I'm still around to put my energy into things I know are possble.
Berating and belittling those that actually can and do get progress done, doesn't get us anywhere.
You can yell and wag fingers that something is wrong - that's easy. I can do that myself in the comfort of my own home. Actually offering actionable strategies to improve things is something else indeed. I will listen to and vote for the one who offers the latter.
Is that clearer?
Anyone who says fixing health care is "simple" or doable in less than 20 years is either willfully ignoring those who actually know about these things or lying. And they are wasting their breath if they want to continue to simply yell about how bad things are. Words are cheap, and so is "symbolic" or "aspirational" legislation.
I can't really understand what that runon sentence means or how the second part of it relates to the first. Can you clarify what homogeniety has to do with oligharchs?
Again, don't let hate for our current political climate consume you, Uncle Joe. That takes away from one's ability to act on it in a positive way - like voting Democratic.
jrthin
(4,832 posts)that conscience, one must question to see if that conscience is reasonable. Too often we assume following one's conscience is reasonable or even sane.
Uncle Joe
(58,265 posts)are shifting toward his position on major policies that he has promoted for decades and the volumes of academic arguments supporting the logic of his positions, I believe the evidence to be most compelling that Bernie's arguments are if anything more than reasonable but wise and necessary as well.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Please go lecture someone who does, and don't trip over that strawman you knocked over.
There seems to be a dualistic mindset among some that a public figure must either be given absolute adoration or absolute disgust. I'm not one of among those of that mind.
But since you decided to go down that road, yes, he did some damage to our country, and to progressive causes and candidates who came after.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/the_next_20/2016/09/ralph_nader_and_the_tragedy_of_voter_as_consumer_politics.html
Uncle Joe
(58,265 posts)that do hate him, one of which responded to the same post that you just did.
The corporate media conglomerates did far more damage against Al than Nader's run in 2000 and have done it for a longer period of time, I view Al Gore as a modern day Prometheus with the Internet being fire.
The corporate media conglomerates hated Al Gore precisely because he did champion opening up the Internet for the American People.
This threatened the corporate media conglomerates, their owners, CEOs and/or major sponsor purchasers mega-buck gravy train and so they proceeded to slander and libel AL for the better part of two years prior to the selection by the Supreme Court.
CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)...and why. President Trump or Ralph Nader?
This thread highlites the confusion.
.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)You're serious??
Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #141)
Post removed
betsuni
(25,367 posts)LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,563 posts)He didn't keep his word.
We know the results.
Now he's all sanctimonious about his First Amendment rights.
The Constitution doesn't give you a right to lie.
F*ck you, Ralph.
CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)...the fix was in.
Oh that's right...Nader did.
.
BannonsLiver
(16,288 posts)Trumpocalypse
(6,143 posts)9/11 and the Iraq & Afghanistan wars.
G_j
(40,366 posts)I totally respect your opinion. I may not love him, but he has done many good things. I dont blame him for Bush, and I actually find it offensive that people blame him while ignoring the racist disenfranchisement of African American voters, and the impassioned protest of the Congressional Black Caucus in the wake of the election that was completely ignored.
Nader is a smart guy, and has a lot of useful knowledge and insights.
Unfortunately a lot of people are consumed in hatred towards him. Though there are plenty of others on our side that get that treatment also. Michael Moore comes to mind.
malaise
(268,640 posts)Thank you
G_j
(40,366 posts)Observe the difference with the thiefing ReTHUGs since November 2016.
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)The Iraq war is on him. The financial crisis of 2008 is on him.
Why?
Because he chose to syphon votes away from Al Gore in 2000. He got 50,000+ votes in Florida in 2000... and Gore lost by less than 600 votes.
It is virtually a guarantee that most of those 50,000+ would've voted for Gore if Nader wasn't on the ballot.
By splitting the left vote JUST enough, he gave us Bush/Cheney and resulted in thousands dead in Iraq.
ismnotwasm
(41,955 posts)TNLib
(1,819 posts)Not so much as a politician.
mvd
(65,152 posts)But I just wish he wouldn't have hurt Gore's chances. Imagine how different things could be now.
wonkwest
(463 posts)I dont watch cable news, but Im curious to know what he was saying that interested you so much