General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)TheRealNorth
(9,478 posts)Keep up the good work!
[link:|
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
a kennedy
(29,658 posts)and welcome....
lapucelle
(18,252 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)He was the one on TV saying 3rd parties should run and not unite against Trump.
I'm not dividing anything. Nader is not a Democrat, nor a Democratic ally.
Gothmog
(145,179 posts)tiredtoo
(2,949 posts)we need another reason to alert on posts here. Divisive post!
skylucy
(3,739 posts)manor321
(3,344 posts)OnDoutside
(19,956 posts)Xipe Totec
(43,890 posts)Gothmog
(145,179 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 26, 2023, 10:12 AM - Edit history (1)
I will never forgive Nader. Rove funded Nader in 2000 and 2004 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html
Furthermore, Karl Rove and the Republican Party knew this, and so they nurtured and crucially assisted Naders campaigns, both in 2000 and in 2004. On 27 October 2000, the APs Laura Meckler headlined GOP Group To Air Pro-Nader TV Ads. She opened: Hoping to boost Ralph Nader in states where he is threatening to hurt Al Gore, a Republican group is launching TV ads featuring Nader attacking the vice president [Mr. Gore]. ... Al Gore is suffering from election year delusion if he thinks his record on the environment is anything to be proud of, Nader says [in the commercial]. An announcer interjects: Whats Al Gores real record? Nader says: Eight years of principles betrayed and promises broken. Mecklers report continued: A spokeswoman for the Green Party nominee said that his campaign had no control over what other organizations do with Naders speeches. Bushs people - the group sponsoring this particular ad happened to be the Republican Leadership Council - knew exactly what they were doing, even though the liberal suckers who voted so carelessly for Ralph Nader obviously did not. Anyone who drives a car the way those liberal fools voted, faces charges of criminal negligence, at the very least. But this time, the entire nation crashed as a result; not merely a single car.....
On July 9th, the San Francisco Chronicle headlined GOP Doners Funding Nader: Bush Supporters Give Independents Bid a Financial Lift, and reported that the Nader campaign has received a recent windfall of contributions from deep-pocketed Republicans with a history of big contributions to the party, according to an analysis of federal records. Perhaps these contributors were Ambassador Egans other friends. Mr. Egans wife was now listed among the Nader contributors. Another listed was Nijad Fares, a Houston businessman, who donated $200,000 to the Bush inaugural committee and who donated $2,000 each to the Nader effort and the Bush campaign this year. Furthermore, Ari Berman reported 7 October 2004 at the Nation, under Swift Boat Veterans for Nader, that some major right-wing funders of a Republican smear campaign against Senator John Kerrys Vietnam service contributed also $13,500 to the Nader campaign, and that the Republican Party of Michigan gathered ninety percent of Naders signatures in their state (90%!) to place Nader on the ballot so Bush could win that swing states 17 electoral votes. Clearly, the word had gone out to Bushs big contributors: Help Ralphie boy! In fact, on 15 September 2005, John DiStaso of the Manchester Union-Leader, reported that, A year ago, as the Presidential general election campaign raged in battleground state New Hampshire, consumer advocate Ralph Nader found his way onto the ballot, with the help of veteran Republican strategist David Carney and the Carney-owned Norway Hill Associates consulting firm.
It was obvious, based upon the 2000 election results, that a dollar contributed to Nader in the 2004 contest would probably be a more effective way to achieve a Bush win against Kerry in the U.S. Presidential election than were perhaps even ten dollars contributed to Bush. This was a way of peeling crucial votes off from Bushs real opponent - votes that otherwise would have gone to the Democrat. Thats why the smartest Republican money in the 2004 Presidential election was actually going to Nader, even more so than to Bush himself: these indirect Bush contributions provided by far the biggest bang for the right-wing buck.
wasupaloopa
(4,516 posts)Eliot Rosewater
(31,109 posts)Gothmog
(145,179 posts)Nader gave us Bush and Stein gave us trump
lovemydogs
(575 posts)Afterall, it is the right of people to run. You cannot ban people from running as it is their right and our founding fathers wanted as many people running and not have it come down to two or three only parties.
If you are upset, maybe you should direct your anger at the Supremes. I have for 18 years.
I never blamed Nadar for running as it was his right.
I blamed the Supremes.
MythosMaster
(445 posts)No particular order of blame...
Jeb
Katherine Harris
The Media's issues during the campaign
TN voters
The medias coverage of the campaign
Al Gore
FL voters
Fox News calling FL for w.
SCOTUS
The media coverage of the recount
Brooks Bro's rioters
The recount
The media's coverage since...
Nader breaking his promise to not campaign in tight states - and his pulling the both parties are the same crap.
All the other things I mentioned far outway some mean things he said about "both parties".
Butterfly ballot comes to mind also.
That was a media/DNC talking point for failure to fight the recount.
Al had a chance and he blew it... had he won his HOME of state of TN, FL would have been irrelevant.
And then there is this...
All that you mentioned are important factors but that is too.
you are saying that mean words brought Gore down? ummm no, but you can believe it.
Not buying it.
But go ahead and keep wasting your time hating on something from 18 years ago that has no bearing on what we are up against today.
I blame the failure of the so called plutocratic forth estate because without them we would never would have had bush or trump.
I would also like to add to my list James Baker.
mcar
(42,309 posts)I lived through it. I stand by what I posted.
MythosMaster
(445 posts)And you can cling to your reactionary feelings.
I will stick to the facts.
mcar
(42,309 posts)How nice of you to give me permission to "cling to my reactionary feelings. "
Nitram
(22,794 posts)Actions have consequences.
standingtall
(2,785 posts)? Notice how Trump did not win his home state of New York. Nader never carried his home state anytime he ran for President. The only thing Nader and the Green party ever managed to do is help repukes get elected. Nader can talk about protecting the environment and worker rights until the cows come home that fact remains the green party has never procured nothing for no one unless you count republicans by their failure to understand a basic concept that republicans use called divide and conquer.
MythosMaster
(445 posts)without carrying his home state.
But I sure expect the guy that was Senator from that state to carry his home state that does not have the baggage of trump.
So no.
standingtall
(2,785 posts)so your expectations are unreasonable.
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)thanks for that reminder.. some people just need to cling to a false narrative.. it comforts them, absolves the failings of their favorite politicians that are doing just fine after all these disastrous elections..
MythosMaster
(445 posts)blaming Bernie from what I can tell... Some people have too much time on their hands to hate.
Not me I am looking for employment that will help me make ends meet.
Just getting by now. Too old to join the army.
Duppers
(28,120 posts)I'm in the fuck-them-all camp.
progressoid
(49,988 posts)Or 87000 illegally purged voters.
Or the 308,000 Democrats who voted for Bush, compared to less than 24,000 who voted for Nader.
MythosMaster
(445 posts)But some people have a lot of time on their hands to hate.
If anything Nader existing is at the bottom, but some people want it to be first. It is easier for them.
cynatnite
(31,011 posts)Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)It's really not that hard.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)does not mean it is always wise to exercise it.
I don't want to ban anyone from running. I want them to exercise good judgment is the face of political disaster.
I repeat. FUCK. RALPH. NADER.
Gothmog
(145,179 posts)Nader is responsible for the Iraq war, Citizens United and the gutting of the voting rights act. Nader was solely responsible for bush being elected in 2000 and for bush putting Alito and Roberts on the SCOTUS. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-zuesse/ralph-nader-was-indispens_b_4235065.html
Nader-voters who spurned Democrat Al Gore to vote for Nader ended up swinging both Florida and New Hampshire to Bush in 2000. Charlie Cook, the editor of the Cook Political Report and political analyst for National Journal, called "Florida and New Hampshire" simply "the two states that Mr. Nader handed to the Bush-Cheney ticket," when Cook was writing about "The Next Nader Effect," in The New York Times on 9 March 2004. Cook said, "Mr. Nader, running as the Green Party nominee, cost Al Gore two states, Florida and New Hampshire, either of which would have given the vice president [Gore] a victory in 2000. In Florida, which George W. Bush carried by 537 votes, Mr. Nader received nearly 100,000 votes [nearly 200 times the size of Bush's Florida 'win']. In New Hampshire, which Mr. Bush won by 7,211 votes, Mr. Nader pulled in more than 22,000 [three times the size of Bush's 'win' in that state]." If either of those two states had gone instead to Gore, then Bush would have lost the 2000 election; we would never have had a U.S. President George W. Bush, and so Nader managed to turn not just one but two key toss-up states for candidate Bush, and to become the indispensable person making G.W. Bush the President of the United States -- even more indispensable, and more important to Bush's "electoral success," than were such huge Bush financial contributors as Enron Corporation's chief Ken Lay.
All polling studies that were done, for both the 2000 and the 2004 U.S. Presidential elections, indicated that Nader drained at least 2 to 5 times as many voters from the Democratic candidate as he did from the Republican Bush. (This isn't even considering throw-away Nader voters who would have stayed home and not voted if Nader had not been in the race; they didn't count in these calculations at all.) Nader's 97,488 Florida votes contained vastly more than enough to have overcome the official Jeb Bush / Katherine Harris / count, of a 537-vote Florida "victory" for G.W. Bush. In their 24 April 2006 detailed statistical analysis of the 2000 Florida vote, "Did Ralph Nader Spoil a Gore Presidency?" (available on the internet), Michael C. Herron of Dartmouth and Jeffrey B. Lewis of UCLA stated flatly, "We find that ... Nader was a spoiler for Gore." David Paul Kuhn, CBSNews.com Chief Political Writer, headlined on 27 July 2004, "Nader to Crash Dems Party?" and he wrote: "In 2000, Voter News Service exit polling showed that 47 percent of Nader's Florida supporters would have voted for Gore, and 21 percent for Mr. Bush, easily covering the margin of Gore's loss." Nationwide, Harvard's Barry C. Burden, in his 2001 paper at the American Political Science Association, "Did Ralph Nader Elect George W. Bush?" (also on the internet) presented "Table 3: Self-Reported Effects of Removing Minor Party Candidates," showing that in the VNS exit polls, 47.7% of Nader's voters said they would have voted instead for Gore, 21.9% said they would have voted instead for Bush, and 30.5% said they wouldn't have voted in the Presidential race, if Nader were had not been on the ballot. (This same table also showed that the far tinier nationwide vote for Patrick Buchanan would have split almost evenly between Bush and Gore if Buchanan hadn't been in the race: Buchanan was not a decisive factor in the outcome.) The Florida sub-sample of Nader voters was actually too small to draw such precise figures, but Herron and Lewis concluded that approximately 60% of Florida's Nader voters would have been Gore voters if the 2000 race hadn't included Nader. Clearly, Ralph Nader drew far more votes from Gore than he did from Bush, and on this account alone was an enormous Republican asset in 2000.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,835 posts)That would have been the honest thing to do.
sheshe2
(83,752 posts)No difference between Hill and trump.
MythosMaster
(445 posts)Gidney N Cloyd
(19,835 posts)
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/jun/30/ralph-nader/nader-almost-said-gore-bush-but-not-quite/
So no, Nader never explicitly said "it doesn't really matter whether Gore or Bush is president." But his talk of "Republicrats," "Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum," and "one corporate party" left many people friend, foe and impartial observer alike with the impression that that's what he believed. We find Nadar's statement that he "never said" it to be Barely True.
MythosMaster
(445 posts)not facts... ok.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,835 posts)You yourself posted a laundry list of factors in Gore's loss and I agree with them. I also believe Nader's campaign was a factor but I don't think anybody is trying to dump the whole loss on him.
MythosMaster
(445 posts)All the others far outweigh the "Nader factor"...
cab67
(2,992 posts)No one questions whether it's his right. But it was a colossally stupid thing to do, and much of our current predicament could have been avoided had he not siphoned votes away from Gore. That is an objective fact and not merely my opinion.
Cha
(297,196 posts)in bush getting in. Fucking Nader lied his damn head off.
BannonsLiver
(16,372 posts)disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)Obama agrees with you on this one (as I do)...
If something needs fixing, then lace up your shoes and do some organizing, the President implored. If youre disappointed by your elected officials, grab a clip board, get some signatures, and run for office yourself.
[link:http://time.com/4631121/president-obama-farewell-speech-politics-participation-democracy/|
Gothmog
(145,179 posts)Here are some facts
Gothmog
(145,179 posts)Look at post 18 on this thread https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100210600840#post18 Nader is the reason why Florida was so close. In addition, Gore would have won a couple of other states but for Nader being an asshole
MariaCSR
(642 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Flogging a book and talking about how third parties should run, rather than unite against Trump.
Idiot.
Cha
(297,196 posts)or missed the idiot.
monmouth4
(9,696 posts)crap and Ari, please, don't do that again..
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)Gothmog
(145,179 posts)Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)Gothmog
(145,179 posts)Thank you for the warning
There is no need to waste time watching an asshole like Nader
Demsrule86
(68,556 posts)Bleacher Creature
(11,256 posts)MyOwnPeace
(16,926 posts)I'm in the "F-R-N" camp!!!!!!
His "right" to civic duty caused a shit-load of civic chaos....................
Le Gaucher
(1,547 posts)JCanete
(5,272 posts)circle jerk threads are so infrequent here...this one is such a breath of musky air.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)And laws that make sure our food doesnt kill us?
ProfessorGAC
(65,013 posts)Was he an advocate for those things? Of course. Was he the reason that GM ALREADY had teams of engineers working on finding ways to make cars safer? Not hardly. All three of the things you mentioned were already in motion before Ralph became a public advocate.
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)Your statement is is like saying exxon mobile has teams researching global warming so we. Who cares about climate advocacy? When in fact most of their efforts are to sweep them under the rug.
ProfessorGAC
(65,013 posts)GM, Ford, Chrysler and 4 European car makers all had teams working on things like seat belts, crumple zones, padded dashboards, etc. in the late 50's.
I also never said advocacy wasn't important.
But, if you want to have blind faith in a guy who, as his greatest skill, is self-promotion, be my guest.
By the way, Exxon Mobil DID NOT have teams researching global warming until it became settled science. They were behind the curve. The car makers were not. They were out front on this. Whether the decision makers delayed going forward until the government and public demanded it doesn't negate the fact that the seat belt, padded dash and steering wheel and crumple designs were already engineered.
Last point: you are aware that later actual empirical testing showed Nader was wrong about the Corvair, right? Completely wrong. Car was not, by any statistical measure, any less safe than any other car on the road at that time, and safer than many.
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)Advocacy movement. His books shaped public opinion in a way that forces these companies to make the changes you were referring to. There is no reason to believe that these companies acted out of their own volition. They needed strong grassroots pressures and like it or not Nader was the spark that created the networks of activists PIRGs which made real changes to our laws on the consumer advocacy front.
madaboutharry
(40,209 posts)rzemanfl
(29,557 posts)applegrove
(118,642 posts)TheRealNorth
(9,478 posts)Keep up the good work
[link:|
BannonsLiver
(16,372 posts)Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)Susan Calvin
(1,646 posts)He doesn't appear to grasp that we currently live in a binary electoral system, and that any third-party candidate is most likely helping Republicans.
And that pushing the Democratic party left and trying to keep it honest is the best that can be done right now.
I don't contend that he cost us presidential elections; I contend that it was stupid to even take the chance.
Stinky The Clown
(67,798 posts)BannonsLiver
(16,372 posts)Not in my book it doesnt. OJ was a nice guy...before he brutally murdered 2 people. Lots of people have done great things who went on to be insufferable pieces of shit later in life like Nader has.
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)Or vice versa... If i had to trade a President Al Gore for all of those other things, I would still keep it as is.
paleotn
(17,912 posts)bottom left, next to the Jill Steins.
mcar
(42,309 posts)Lonestarblue
(9,986 posts)I saw him on Ari Melbers show and was so irritated I shut him off. Why is MSNBC even having this has-been on any show!
JI7
(89,249 posts)He also refused to endorse Paul Wellstone until late in the race.
But after wellstone died he used him to attack other Democrats.
keithbvadu2
(36,793 posts)madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)doc03
(35,332 posts)Rebl2
(13,498 posts)WhiteTara
(29,706 posts)the point of the celestial sphere that is directly opposite the zenith and vertically downward from the observer
Stuart G
(38,421 posts)which.........saved tens of thousands of lives over the years...(check out auto deaths after 84 you will see a significant reduction.....)..hit this link and look at deaths after 1980..(began to go down significantly after seatbelts were required and other safety devices...1984..Just as important,,,safety regulations reduced significant injuries by tens of thousands. People with minor injuries...could have been killed without the seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones...etc..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
Nader resulted in Bush getting elected...Bush defines the word..asshole
Bush/ asshole....was so bad, resulted in Obama being elected...guess what?..Obama also saved tens of thousands of lives...with health care legislation...Would Obama have been elected, if Bush were not such a complete asshole?....what do you think?...
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Im not sure his election justifies the disaster that the Bush 43 Presidency was.
progressoid
(49,988 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)3rd parites should not unite with Democrats against Trump. I cant think of a better thing to be righteously indignant about.
R B Garr
(16,951 posts)Nader still has too much of an ego to admit he was responsible for that Republican disaster. Sounds familiar.
I still mourn for what could have been with Al Gore!
progressoid
(49,988 posts)Somebody will always run as a third party candidate. It happens every election cycle. How hard is that to understand?
Cha
(297,196 posts)What, you don't like people giving their opinion on a political discussion board?
alarimer
(16,245 posts)We should either hate someone or love them unreservedly. Never mind that almost no one deserves either.
Nader may be wrong here (and in fact, I think he is right. I want third parties to run, but I want them to start locally, where they have a chance to build something over time).
And of course it is a lie that he cost Gore the election, when 300,000 Democrats voted for Bush.
chwaliszewski
(1,514 posts)Why stop at blaming Ralph Nader? Let's blame the rabbit that scared Jimmy Carter and caused him to lose to Ronald Reagan.
shanny
(6,709 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Our country is facing an existential crisis and what does Nader say? That third parties shouldn't unite with Democrats against Trump.
He does not understand what it happening. And anyone who supports that ass apparently doesn't either.
Tiggeroshii
(11,088 posts)....is what im getting out of this thread.
standingtall
(2,785 posts)thousands of Americans died in Iraq thanks to Nader helping Bush win. Anything meaningful Nader did happened before he ran for president no good came of it.
radical noodle
(8,000 posts)What an ass... back to his same old nonsense. He didn't cause Gore to lose. No sir! It was a simple choice and he had the right... blah, blah, blah.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)njhoneybadger
(3,910 posts)HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)if we are going to really dredge up the past...
Cha
(297,196 posts)The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)The one that has All the answers, the know-it-all. As you grew up you realized the guy was full of shit. What sounded good never worked in actual real life practice and led to disaster.
Cha
(297,196 posts)Definitely Fuck Off ralph nader.. freaking LIAR.
Upthevibe
(8,043 posts)forgive him for the sElection of 2000.
trueblue2007
(17,217 posts)raven mad
(4,940 posts)a friend overturned a Corvair.
Entirely the friend's fault.
mountain grammy
(26,620 posts)oasis
(49,382 posts)Fuck Nader and x 2 Susan Sarandon.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Nothing new to see here.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)for this shit?
If he helps the republicans retain power in the midterms this country is going full on fascist and Nader knows this just like we do.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)That's just the facts. So, no, Nader did not actually cost Gore that election. You could, ultimately, blame the Supreme Court who stopped the recount. Or you could just blame those Dems who voted for Bush, when the actual margin turned out to be a few hundred votes.
disillusioned73
(2,872 posts)mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)ahhhhhhh!
Cha
(297,196 posts)political Democratic discussion board are voicing their disgust.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Nader's words are so POWERFUL and MAGICAL!
Cha
(297,196 posts)mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Oh look a unicorn!
Cha
(297,196 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)He's an anti-union prick, too.
http://timshorrock.blogspot.ca/2006/06/boss-nader-or-how-i-was-fired-by-ralph.html
When the fired workers appealed the action to federal authorities, Nader filed a countersuit. Applying a legal tactic that employers commonly use to resist union-organizing efforts, Nader claimed that the fired workers were trying to appropriate his business. Nader spurned efforts by other progressives to mediate the fight, and he refused an offer to settle the litigation by simply signing a declaration that his workers thenceforth would have the right to organize.
"I was shocked by how Ralph acted," said John Cavanagh, director of the Institute for Policy Studies, who tried to mediate the dispute. "He seemed unable to see how this conflicted with his ideals." Cavanagh, who says he likes and respects Nader and supported his 2000 presidential run, said he was particularly surprised that Nader refused a dialogue on the dispute: "That's not the way progressives are supposed to act."
Sid
The Polack MSgt
(13,188 posts)Nader spurned efforts by other progressives to mediate the fight
Should read "Nader spurned efforts by progressives to mediate the fight" It bugs me when such obvious errors make it in to publication.
BTW Ralphie boy - The Corvair was no more unsafe than any other mid 60s car.
You hyped it up and made a fortune providing lawsuit ammo to unscrupulous lawyers, but it was always bullshit, just like your "Political" career. A scam intended to make you wealthy and famous
KG
(28,751 posts)marble falls
(57,081 posts)louis c
(8,652 posts)I have been seething since 2000. The fucking Green Party has fucked this country more than any other entity in our history.
world wide wally
(21,742 posts)Fuck Ralph Nader
wryter2000
(46,040 posts)Kurt V.
(5,624 posts)for the average American.
packman
(16,296 posts)leading America to a more progressive, greener country. Unfortunate he went off the rails and could never get it back on track. What a country we could have been if the Green party and become viable.
still_one
(92,189 posts)G_j
(40,367 posts)geardaddy
(24,926 posts)ChiTownDenny
(747 posts)GeorgeGist
(25,320 posts)Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)Gothmog
(145,179 posts)Nader is an arrogant asshole who gave us (i) the Iraq war, (ii) Citizens United, (iii) the gutting of the voting rights act and (iv) Trump
kevink077
(365 posts)Florida should not have mattered. Nader took enough votes from Gore to swing the state. His idiot voters did not think Gore was liberal enough lol.. I will never forgive him or his brain dead voters.
byronius
(7,394 posts)And definitely caused some serious damage to himself and the nation.
keepleft101
(82 posts)But Nader is a good guy.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Saying that third party candidates should not unite with Democrats against Trump is not being a good guys.
Gothmog
(145,179 posts)Wolf Frankula
(3,600 posts)When that asshole dies, let's bury him in a Corvair.
Wolf