I need educators to help me understand something.

[Kilgore]

First some background. I graduated public highschool in 1978 where my science teachers all had some level of experience in industry. Our physics instructor spent time with NASA during the Apollo project, chemistry was a former chemist with Chevron, and the biology teacher spent time in the pharmaceutical industry. Each colored their lectures with stories and applications from their past. For me, these teachers ignited my interest that resulted in graduating from a state university in 1985 with degrees in both mechanical and electrical engineering.

Like highschool, my college professors had for the most part come from industry. They added stories and practical examples of how the subject at hand was applicable to real life as an engineer. Some of these profs helped us with job leads with their former employers and became lifelong friends.

Recently I had the opportunity to spend time with highschool science teachers from various districts from across our state. As we chatted, I discovered that none of them had any "real world" experience with almost all graduating highschool, going straight to college, then straight to teaching highschool.

So finally to my question. Are science teachers with no industry experience common today? If so, why? And do you think having no industry is detrimental?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Cheers!

[Tarc]

1. I think the private sector is far more lucrative now

there's little reason for veterans of the field to choose second careers in academics.

My HS science teacher was a Syrian man who previously had worked for DuPont. He and hes wife were ~60 and used to invite the class to his house for cookouts , and he's absolutely destroy all of us in ping-pong. Like it was a accomplishment to get a point.

A different era...

[Kilgore]

6. Good memories

Our physics teacher did the same, and was a brutal ping pong player too!

[tonyt53]

2. Did a couple of "career day" at two high schools in March. From what I saw, you nailed it.

They go from high school, to college to become high school teachers. All of their "knowledge" of science comes from the books they learned it from. Not knocking them at all, but that is just they way it is now. They are doing the best they can with what they have. I'm just glad they are trying.

[Kilgore]

7. Ok, so its not only me

I was hoping it was an anomaly, but sadly no.
IMHO, they would have a hard time igniting the fuse in the same way my teachers did.

[Sancho]

3. I've spent more than 40 years in education...

and I started with a science credential in the 70s.

The salaries are awful, and most often the job gets little respect. Right now, almost no one is going into science or math education.

There are some secondary teachers who come over from failing industries (NASA, energy, etc.), but they often have little or no ability to teach in a modern classroom where curriculums are complex and special children are common. Industry experience won't always prepare you for today's schools where you have to be a doctor, lawyer, and psychologist rolled into one. It's a different school than the 70s.

It takes a combination of content experience and teacher training to be successful - and most importantly teachers need the values appropriate for the profession. Unfortunately, that combination is in short supply right now.

[southerncrone]

5. So true, Sancho.

Most people think education is a breezy job, not understanding the complexities of today's schools.

[Kilgore]

8. Excuse my ignorance but

Is there a way to divert the kids who are really interested in science into a different path/environment where the teacher does not have to play those other roles and concentrate on the subject matter?

Or are we dealing with a "one size fits all" situation.

[Sancho]

21. Not really...there are plenty of AP and IB classes for the advanced students...

but just like doctors and lawyers, teachers are responsible to teach everyone. It would be easy if "one size fits all" were the norm!

In fact, most schools are obsessed with testing - and those exams (standardized and "end-of-course" - are used to rate the teacher and grade the school. Sometimes they are tied to complicated statistical formulas called VAM (Value Added Models). Meanwhile, most teachers are observed using complex tools of teacher performance (Marzano, Danielson, etc.). You have to ask certain questions, provide specific activities in class, and teach according to the model your district adapts.

If you "concentrate" on the subject matter, you'd have to decide "what subject matter?"!!! In one of my science classes the parents removed my science books on EVOLUTION!! Others object to sex education; while some insist on sex education!! Meanwhile the district requires that you teach the CCC (Common Core Curriculum), but won't provide supplies for chemistry, physics, or biology demonstrations unless you buy them yourself!

Federal law since the 80s (PL 94-143, ADA, etc.) won't let you exclude special students. That's not just ones who are motivated, but those with impairments of almost every sort. Here in FL, over 25% of the kids were born outside of the US, and about half speak something other than English at home, so you better be multi-lingual and familiar with a bunch of disabilities too. Those students are MOTIVATED, but require lots of attention.

So no, diversion won't help unless you believe in segregation. That's something that our GOP friends actively attempt with charter schools.

[Freedomofspeech]

27. As a retired educator...

You nailed it, Sancho.

[southerncrone]

4. Yes, they are common from my experience.

I retired from teaching high school in 2011.
First, my disclaimer...I was not a science teacher but, of course, knew many. I taught Business & IT.

The main reason science teachers now do not have "real world" experience is because of the low pay in the field of education. I can think of no other profession where someone w/a Master's degree is paid under $40,000 (less in some areas). Anyone w/a good job in industry would be taking a substantial pay cut to become a teacher.

Another reason, I believe, is the total lack of respect for educators in our society today. When you (& I) were in school, teachers were respected members of the community. Not so much today, often viewed as "the enemy" by students & parents alike. It's a no win position. Who do you know would give up a position of status to assume one of disdain?

This will not be a popular reason, but more often than not, male teachers are hired primarily as coaches. They are often placed as science or history teachers. Many of them began their college careers in a science major, but when finding it a difficult path, changed to education. Their main focus is on the field or court where they receive the most accolades, not the classroom.

This is just a short list, but hope it throws some light on the subject.

[Kilgore]

10. Specifically regarding pay

This is speculation, but I would think that the pay gap between industry and education would be the same then and now in inflation adjusted dollars. That would be a neat statistic to research.

I remember the coaches in my highschool also were the PE, drivers ed and shop teachers. Places they could do little harm.

Thank You for the insight. My kids had a live in science teacher and our back yard was one big experiment in progress much to my wifes frustration at times!

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

9. I am not an educator.

I attended high school in the 1960s. My sons graduated in 2001 and 2005 from high school None of our high school science teachers had any real world experience. They were all simply academics. I honestly think your experience was a bit unusual.

In college I had teachers with real world experience of some kind, but not all of them. Most of my many college teachers over several decades (I took classes on and off for a very long time) were mostly teachers/college professors. The few who had real world experience were all in the business field.

It is my understanding that industry tends to pay so very well that people stay there their entire working lives. Teaching is simply not as well paid. Which makes me think that your experience was quite unusual.

For what it's worth, I've attended colleges or universities in a total of six different states from 1965-2007.

[Kilgore]

11. Interesting experience

And opposite from mine. Looking back at college, the majority of the engineering profs had a significant amount of industry experience. I recall one telling us about an orbital telescope that he worked on doing optics. It was called Hubble and we would hear about it, if it ever launches.

Good Times in 1983!!!

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

16. May I ask when you attended high school?

And connected to this conversation, I have a son (35 years old and I can't begin to understand how I can possibly have so old a son) who is in a PhD program in astronomy. Thanks to him and his patient willingness to explain things to me, I know more or less all about the James Webb telescope, which will be launched in 2020.

His current research is in exoplanets, and he is incredibly patient at answering all my many questions about all things astronomy. I have never ever heard him roll his eyes at me, which is pretty amazing, considering how often I ask him the very same questions.

I am not completely surprised that your engineering profs had industry experience. From what little I know of that field, it's a good thing if there's a reasonable amount of back and forth between industry and academia.

[hunter]

12. My wife and I were big city science teachers.

We met, we got married, and when my wife was accepted to a high power graduate school in another state, we left.

My wife and I both have science degrees and I'd been working with computers and/or in medical labs a few years before I started teaching. I had plenty of "real world" experience, some of it quite sordid, some of it soul-sucking corporate, and some just hard physical labor.

Teaching was by far the toughest job I've ever had, and I've had some really stressful jobs. I may be a lunatic, but I'm capable of very hard work, both physical labor and brain sweat. I've loaded and unloaded trucks, written computer software, and worked in blood banks where mistakes can kill people.

Them that survive teaching can be saints, Nazis, or totally burned out oblivious and "controlling" their classes by inducing somnolence.

I'd be so stressed out at the end of the day teaching that I'd putter around my classroom for an hour, sweeping the floor, straightening up the books, cleaning up after labs, mindless stuff, just so I'd be calm enough to drive home safely. Deep breaths.

My wife's sister is a science teacher of the saintly type. My wife is that kind of teacher too, but she wasn't happy. Mostly it was the lack of respect she suffered; she's never much been motivated by money. I jumped at the offer to move away with her because I feared I was evolving into the Nazi sort of teacher.

"Stay in your seat, or I will make your life hell!"

My students, now middle aged, probably remember me as their mad science teacher. I liked fire. All the really dangerous stuff hadn't yet been banned.

I liked this one and let the kids do it... with Bunsen burners:

I wan't so extreme as one of my colleagues, a retired-at-fifty oil company chemist with patents who'd decided his calling was teaching. He once made thermite and his class burned a hole in a corner of the playground asphalt all the way to gravel. The principal was not amused.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

17. From what little I know about teaching,

and I've never been a teacher myself, it seems to me as if for the most part this isn't a profession people should do their entire lives. Actually, there are a number of other professions that fit that mold of limitation. I won't even bother to name them, but whatever you think should be included, you're probably right.

In my own experience in the working world, one of the things I learned was that we can get too narrowly focused in a world view connected to our job. And that isn't necessarily good. Were I dictator of North America, I'd make people change jobs/professions every ten years or so. What would be lost in institutional memory, would be gained by a fresh look at things.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

28. Seems like a bad idea.

I have been teaching for 25 years. I am an incredibly better teacher than I was when I started and than I was 10 years in. It's hard work and a profession. It takes time to perfect it. We need better teachers and not a rotating wave of new teachers.

[hunter]

31. Oh hell no.

Teaching K-12 is one of the jobs where experience counts. Mentor teachers who have decades of teaching experience are invaluable.

You don't need a rocket science degree to teach most high school science or math classes anyways. If we expect high school kids to learn Algebra II in the course of a school year then any intellectually curious teacher ought to be able to refresh their own Algebra skills well ahead of their students, and then relate to their students the usefulness of these skills, not just the practical aspects, but as a way of understanding the world.

As an aside, I think we ought to get rid of the 12th grade, and maybe the 11th grade. Young adults should be in college, learning a trade, or doing public service work, ideally experiencing life outside their isolated middle and high school communities. Anyone old enough to drive a car is too old for high school.

It seems to me the "senior" year in U.S.A. high school exists because of high school football and creepy patriarchal culture. 17 and 18 year old young men win high school football games, and 16-18 year old women are objectified by the Roy Moore types.

Personally I had a really shitty middle and high school experience. The bullies called me queerbait and I was frequently beaten bloody. I was told by some teachers and staff that it was somehow my fault and that all I had to do was "be a man" and the bullies would leave me alone. That wasn't in the cards for me because I was a skinny, squeaky, highly reactive kid.

I quit high school for college as soon as I could, which was one of the better decisions I've ever made in my life. It was weird being a minor in college, but the physical violence against me ended. Adults who beat up minors go to jail.

Most of my middle and high school teachers were competent, a few were excellent, and a few were people I'd never let near any teenager. What's worse, the horrible teachers always seemed to have some special relationship with school administrators and school board members, often through their churches.

My own high school experience was partly what motivated me to become a teacher, that I'd return to high school like Welcome Back, Kotter, a champion of the underdogs, but real life isn't television.

[southerncrone]

33. Cuthbert Allgood is correct in that teaching takes time to master...like honing any skill.

However, I do not see teachers being able to endure the current education quagmire for more than 10 yrs...tops.

The stress of being attacked from all sides (parents, administrators, systems, and sometimes students) takes a toll.
Couple that w/the frustration of not having the tools, or time, to adequately do the job you were hired to do becomes soul-crushing.
I actually came from a corporate background before becoming a teacher. Once I had children, I was fortunate to be able to stay home w/them until they became school age. Living in a rural area, there were few jobs for educated business women, so teaching became a viable option allowing me to be on the same schedule as my children. One of the first things that shocked me was the difference in these two worlds from an employee's perspective. In the corporate world, I was given a task/goal & all the tools & support to achieve said goal. The goal was the goal. All focus was on that end. I quickly discovered that in education, you were given goals to achieve, too, however instead of having the tools & support to achieve them, there were constant barriers & obstacles placed in your path. It began to seem like the goal was NOT to achieve the goal under any circumstances. Not only frustrating, but demoralizing.

Also, in the public school systems, teachers often see some of the worst our society has produced...inflicted upon children. This takes an emotional toll on any caring individual.

Then one must consider that teaching is no longer a safe profession. In my experience, positive PR image of the school always was paramount over safety. We all know of the numerous school shootings in recent years, and they seem to be on the rise. Even kindergartners are bringing guns to school. Need I say more.

Few will be able to endure this stress for more than a decade.

But realize that the Republican agenda for the last 40 yrs has been to dismantle the public education system. They have whittled away at it until we are here in this dysfunctional place. They broke the public school system on purpose. They benefit from an uneducated populous in many ways. I contend the current occupant of the White House is a result of this dismantling. The dumbing down of America is real & purposeful.

[jes06c]

13. Teaching used to be a solid, middle class career

There was a time when a teacher could easily support a family on a single income, and it was a honored profession.

Now, it's common for teachers to work second jobs just to make ends meet. The right wing has vilified teachers over the last decade, turning a good section of the public against them. And believe me, children pick up this lack of respect from their parents. So recruiting people from science/technology industries is going to be a tough sale: almost certainly lower pay, and a toxic political environment that is often hostile to public education.

Also, industry experience doesn't necessarily translate into being a good teacher. I once had a chemistry teacher who was a former chemist. The guy was absolutely brilliant, definitely knew his stuff, but he had struggled to make the material accessible to high schoolers. My wife is a teacher, and I've heard her say many times that personality, people skills, and classroom management are far more important that subject knowledge.

Not only that, many science teachers didn't even go to school to become science teachers. Many of them majored in teaching other subjects, but since science and math teaching positions are so hard to fill, schools will pressure, say, an English teacher to get credentialed to teach math. Here in Arizona, a teacher can pass a basic subject knowledge test, and that qualifies them to teach science or math.

You'd probably be disappointed if you sat in on a modern day science class. You speak fondly about how your teachers would share stories of their past, but with the current obsession with standardizing testing, teachers are put under a lot of pressure to follow a very narrow curriculum to prepare kids for the tests. A lot of schools, at least here in Arizona, frown upon teachers who go off script.

[Ms. Toad]

14. Not sure how far back you're thinking teachers were solidly middle class

But when I started teaching in a public school in 1978, my salary was $10,000.

As for the problem of teachers with outer backgrounds teaching science - a far more significant problem is that many states/schools through grade 9 permit anyone with an elementary certificate to teach any subject.

Two aspects of that are problematic - many elementary teachers chose that certification because it requires fewer math classes which (by and large) is not their forte. The other problem is the tendency to move advanced math classes earlier and earlier in the academic career. That means the best and brightest students are often taking their first advanced math classes from people who are not certified in, and have little interest in, math and science.

[jes06c]

15. I was thinking 1940s - 1960s

I had always heard teacher pay was pretty good during those years. Maybe the Cold War/arms race/space race, and the paranoia to keep up with the Soviet Union had something to do with it?

I'm kind of surprised that a teacher's pay was so low even in 1978. I always assumed that the low pay would've started during the Reagan administration.

I went to school in the 80s and 90s, and jokes about low pay were common even back then. I remember an episode of the Simpsons back in the 90s where Superintendent Chalmers was horrified to find out that Lunchlady Doris was moonlighting as the school nurse. The joke was that Springfield Elementary was so underfunded that they had to resort to hiring a nurse with no medical background. Sadly, this is actually true for the school where my wife works. They don't have a full time nurse. The district nurse comes in for a few hours in the afternoon, but the rest of the day, the principal's secretary (who has no medical experience other than receiving CPR/First Aid training at the start of the school year) acts as the school nurse for most of the day.

[Sancho]

23. That's about right, my contract in 1976 was $8,900 as a teacher...

one time in the 1980s, we started asking elementary teacher candidates to take more math (algebra, calculus), and the result was that students were pretty successful at passing the courses - but they LEFT EDUCATION! Once they got the required math and science courses, they would be offered all kinds of jobs at higher pay or change to other majors. For that reason alone, some colleges stopped requiring math and science for teachers.

Right now, some Florida colleges have made STEM or STEAM "priority" majors and a "critical problem" for teaching. Even with scholarships and tuition forgiveness, they can't attract students to education because the salaries in the private sector are double or triple for anyone with math, science, or technology skills.

[hunter]

32. My wife and I were science teachers with university science educations...

... and we left teaching in the mid-eighties.

My wife got accepted to graduate school in another state and I happily followed her.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

18. My recollection of the teaching profession from when I was growing up,

is that it was marginal in terms of earnings. Most teachers I knew worked serious second summer jobs. Their spouses also worked, and they were probably one of the first professions that encouraged two earners.

Whether or not secondary school teachers are credentialed in their subject opens a huge can of worms. All too often they are not. All too often the history teacher or biology teacher is called "Coach" because he coaches the school's football team and that's where his heart is.

I've gotten into discussions here on DU as to whether that's an okay thing or not. It's my opinion, as someone who went to high school and who also had kids who attended high school, that teachers should have majored in the subjects they are now teaching. I honestly think that college classes to learn how to test should be secondary, although they are important. I want to take classes, I want all kids to take classes, from people who studied that subject in depth and who really care about that subject.

[southerncrone]

34. You speak the truth. I was reprimanded for deviating from the very regimented curriculum.

Only square pegs in square holes. Let's see...who wanted that world?

This at the very time when the business world longs for people who think outside the box. Such a disconnect.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

19. Here's an idea to pitch around...

Why not offer teachers coop job opportunities in industry with salary incentives?

As an engineer, I totally agree it is highly beneficial to students to hear more real-life experiences from teachers. That said, if school boards could work with industry to set up a system to provide either summertime or full year coop opportunities for teachers, I think many would give it a try - particularly if the coop jobs were in their home area.

Teachers could be offered a pay incentives, just like they are for acquiring higher degrees. Industry would benefit in the long-term by having access to better educated employees.

...........

[Sancho]

22. After 40+ years my wife and I both often work outside of education (to make a living)...

We both have taught in three states, and the last 25 years in Florida. We both have multiple degrees.

If not for outside (of teaching) jobs, we would likely have starved. Sometimes it's summers, sometimes part-time, and sometimes just take a year or two off. Frankly, we make about double working outside of the public schools.

You are correct that it keeps us in the loop with the "real world", but as we've gotten older it's harder to maintain the energy for outside employment. My wife is going to quit (41 years in education) soon, and devote her time to the "private sector".

Fortunately, medicare and SS will help so that she can do what she wants.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

25. Sancho, congratulations on two wonderful careers as educators!

In my book, you folks should be among the highest paid professionals in America. And, 41 years is amazing!

My daughter is an elementary school reading teacher and has a masters in special ed, and my wife is a retired teacher's assistant. I'm very proud of the work they've done. My daughter had to use a crowd funding program (DonorsChoose.org) to get enough books for her class and regularly has to by other materials out of her pocket to get her job done. That's a crying shame for the USA, and it's also a shame you folks have had to work outside jobs to get by.

What I meant in regards to a coop program is similar to what's available to most engineering students in college, where they can take a year off school to go out in an industrial job to get industry experience prior to graduation. It's a great deal for both the student and for the employer.

My thoughts were that for high school science teachers, perhaps they could do a coop job in industry either during college, or early in their careers as teachers so they have real world experience to benefit their students. The companies providing the coop opportunities could be given a tax break for assisting education. Seems like a win-win for everyone, and especially if that enhanced the teacher's pay.

I wish both of you the very best as you go into retirement!...... ........

[Sancho]

30. Thanks....I know what you mean...

Reading and special education are still in demand, and much more complicated than parents usually realize, so I'm glad to hear your daughter is still in the profession. My wife just bought the music for her school's spring show, and was shopping this weekend at the dollar store for something her kids needed. That's pretty much the norm now - they hire guards with guns, but won't pay for supplies or materials! Of course, my wife was trilled to hear on FB from a former student who finished college and was now performing at Disney.

In the late 70s I was a scout leader with an exec from an oil company. He found out I was a science teacher and asked if I wanted to work for his company for double the salary!! He said he didn't care what courses I'd taken or my GPA, because I just needed a science background. My guess is that most people doing a coop wouldn't go back to teaching.

OTOH, teacher education is very aware of the need for more experienced secondary teachers. Simply put, our local college programs have very few or no science/math majors, and many, many openings for teachers. It's a major crisis. About the only experienced teachers we get from the private sector are those who were laid off, or those who retired. The statistics are that people moving into teaching from industry cost the districts thousands to train and certify them, and very few stay in teaching. About 70% are gone in 5 years.

Another push is to take experienced teachers (including elementary), and pay for courses in science and math; plus take them into science labs, applied math situations, and get them some exposure. That's another cost per teacher, but it seems to produce better long term results than recruiting from industry (at least that's the early reports). It's not a coop, but more like part-time internships.

I had a grant once in the 90s for teachers to use Saturdays to learn engineering projects with local firms, and develop examples for the kids. It also served to recruit future engineers. It worked pretty well, but the district wouldn't fund it after the grant dried up (typical). The private companies were supportive, but to work with kids a low as middle school - and see engineers graduate 8 years later was too long term for them to invest. Education is a very LONGITUDINAL profession.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

20. Many teachers who came out of industry were layoffs....

from back in the down-sizing, globalization and merger days (still ongoing, but not as bad as 80s/90s). I suspect much of that supply has dried up now.

I recall in engineering school in the 60s, we were encouraged to get a teacher's certificate which required several additional class hours to achieve. They suggested that for "just in case" times got hard, then we would have that to fall back on for employment. I think that was wise advise, but I didn't do it 'cause I was in a hurry to get to work.

[Lee-Lee]

24. The way the retirement system is structured in many states is also a barrier to mid-career swaps

Many states have pension systems set up where a person gets a fairly poor return until they hit 15-20-25 year benchmarks. For someone in their 40’s thinking about a career swap that’s a pretty big disincentive.

It also serves to keep people who don’t really want to do the job anymore in the job and doing just the minimum to get by until they get enough years.

It’s not just teaching. I saw the same thing in law enforcement. Lots of more mature mid-career people who had an interest and would have made great cops, but when your retirement system you would begin at 42 demands 25 years service for a full return, and at less than 20 is a dismal return, it keeps you out. And at the same time that burned out cop whose heart isn’t in it at 22 years he is doing the bare minimum to not get fired for 3 more years and isn’t giving the public good or effective service.

[dameatball]

26. You just described my daughter and she is doing quite well.

She began in public education and now teaches at a private academy. The answer to your inquiry may have more to do with job vacancies and who is available to fill them at the time. An administrator is not going to have science (or any other subject) classes removed from the curriculum until just the right applicant with many years of "real world" experience shows up.

Like you, I did find that my college professors often had plenty of previous experience. I even had one that claimed he had been in the CIA. High school....not so much.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

29. Disclosure: I'm an English teacher and not a science teacher.

Teaching isn't something that you can just take someone without a background in education and hope they do it well. I see it all the time. People that are in industry take some classes to be able to get a license and then come in to teach only to fail at it. Sure, some do fine but they are the minority.

In order to teach well, you need to spend a great deal of time learning and understanding how to do it. Frankly, my subject area is secondary a lot of the time to the human aspect of the job. Getting kids to trust you, getting kids to let you help them get over whatever is happening in their lives to stop them from doing their best. Sure, I teach primarily communication classes and have a master's in communication. I know the subject I'm teaching. But to think that that is all you need to teach is vastly misunderstanding what this job is all about.