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oberliner

(58,724 posts)
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:26 AM May 2018

Israeli soldiers did not "slaughter unarmed children"

The spreading of this lie needs to stop.

One can condemn the actions of the Israeli government/military without lying.

Ha'aretz (a left-leaning news outlet in Israel) does a good job of describing what took place and criticizing the fact that Israel took no steps to prevent what occurred:

Palestinian protesters gathered fairly slowly at first. At noon the army still estimated their number at about 10,000, and the level of the clashes was relatively low. But then came a shift. Tens of thousands more Gazans streamed to the border (at the height of the protest there were apparently 40,000 to 50,000 people there) and at the same time the friction became more severe. Many hundreds of protesters tried to reach the fence itself. The sound of exploding tear gas canisters gradually joined the sniper fire. According to the Israel Defense Forces, Hamas had paid Gazans to reach the fence and saw to it that many young women were in the first lines of protesters. In three cases soldiers shot armed squads who tried to place explosive devices at the fence and opened fire on IDF forces.

Through binoculars, from various observation points a few hundred meters from the fence, it could be seen that the protests were planned and controlled by Hamas. Masses of people had gathered near the Karni crossing, opposite Kibbutz Nahal Oz, and suddenly began to move southward along the border in an orderly convoy, with men on motorcycles nearby. The convoy on foot was stopped about two kilometers from there, at which point it began to reorganize, opposite an earthen embankment nearby where Israeli sharpshooters were stationed. Within minutes, clashes broke out there, with ambulances rushing to wait from behind for the evacuation of the first killed and injured.

The beefed-up presence of the army could clearly be seen on Monday. Soldiers were almost everywhere. Snipers were stationed along the fence, and behind them, troops in the fields of the kibbutzim and moshavim. A little farther back, in parking areas, police Special Forces were waiting if needed to handle a mass breach of the fence and a move deep into Israeli territory. That didn’t happen, but many Palestinians were hit in the clashes along the fence.

By 6 P.M., when the protesters left, as directed from on high by Hamas, 43 Palestinians had been killed, hundreds wounded by live fire and hundreds more by inhaling tear gas. A great deal of tear gas was used, but it dissipated quickly in the open areas, as in previous demonstrations. It seems that its impact is minor and fleeting. Sniper fire was the main weapon, and the number of casualties on the bloodiest day in Gaza since Operation Protective Edge in the summer of 2014 was accordingly high.

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-a-predictable-disaster-in-gaza-israel-did-nothing-to-prevent-clashes-1.6091797


So by all means, I support and endorse criticism of the way the Israeli government and army responded with lethal force, killing several dozen Palestinian adults, and, most tragically and condemnable, a small number of kids, but to create a myth/lie about "slaughtering children" is just preposterous.
211 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Israeli soldiers did not "slaughter unarmed children" (Original Post) oberliner May 2018 OP
People here believe what they want to believe leftynyc May 2018 #1
Spot on. Tipperary May 2018 #2
Thank you, like many things in the Mideast, this is more complicated than a headline can express Amishman May 2018 #6
I am a strong supporter of Israel as a Jewish state, but it is not necessary to move Sophia4 May 2018 #12
How much more slowly would you like to move? leftynyc May 2018 #92
All true, but moving the embassy just makes that bad situation worse. Sophia4 May 2018 #113
Was no need to move that embassy, it was fine! Republicans & RW Israel-foment violence. Sunlei May 2018 #130
Let's see leftynyc May 2018 #158
As I recall, Jerusalem is a holy site for at least 3 religions and was not identified as an Sophia4 May 2018 #166
Yes I know leftynyc May 2018 #202
What does this mean? Sophia4 May 2018 #209
Meaning under any future agreement leftynyc May 2018 #210
The move precipitated the protests tazkcmo May 2018 #186
40000 people trying leftynyc May 2018 #201
You're so right Sophia. InAbLuEsTaTe May 2018 #152
I'm just wondering leftynyc May 2018 #157
It should have been moved 23 years ago. grossproffit May 2018 #208
Can you explain the difference between "slaughtering unarmed children" and "killing kids"? muriel_volestrangler May 2018 #36
Slaughter means "kill (people or animals) in a cruel or violent way, typically in large numbers." oberliner May 2018 #42
Yes, shooting is violent; "typically" does not mean exclusively muriel_volestrangler May 2018 #47
I was unaware that slaughter was "cruel or violent" anyway jberryhill May 2018 #69
In a "cruel of violent way" jberryhill May 2018 #67
Epic fail. Use any trite phrase you like, it won't change the fact that Israel procon May 2018 #98
I'm still waiting for anyone leftynyc May 2018 #94
What children were doing where they live? I don't know, would you like them expelled muriel_volestrangler May 2018 #104
Gaza is 141 square mile... EX500rider May 2018 #167
Would I let my children go to a protest for their rights? muriel_volestrangler May 2018 #168
You would let your young children go to a Hamas inspired riot and attempted.. EX500rider May 2018 #171
What you call a riot, they all see as a protest - the only way to get the world muriel_volestrangler May 2018 #176
I must have missed the molotov cocktails at the MLK marches... EX500rider May 2018 #179
+1000 smirkymonkey May 2018 #197
It makes it impossible to have a discussion about this topic oberliner May 2018 #41
When people only want to blame one side leftynyc May 2018 #95
Yes, I feel the same way oberliner May 2018 #97
That is right wingers treestar May 2018 #131
Are you saying those children you agree were killed weren't "slaughtered"? uppityperson May 2018 #3
Only a small unspecified number jberryhill May 2018 #9
One is too many EffieBlack May 2018 #11
Yes, but Oberliner is objecting to the phrase "slaughter unarmed children" jberryhill May 2018 #13
Do you know how many children were "shot by snipers?" EffieBlack May 2018 #20
I believe that may be a good question to ask Oberliner jberryhill May 2018 #22
Dear GOD Eliot Rosewater May 2018 #53
My work is done here jberryhill May 2018 #61
Thank you uppityperson May 2018 #150
Well one of slaughter's definitions is "the act of killing'. So you can call it one. nt Kirk Lover May 2018 #34
Well a snipers bullet in the head is not 'slaughter' why just killing... ridiculous for the OP to Demsrule86 May 2018 #76
No babies were shot by snipers so that is just a lie oberliner May 2018 #43
Your OP refers to "unarmed children" jberryhill May 2018 #62
Well, they were probably "no angels" . . . hatrack May 2018 #121
I use "babies" in the colloquial sense - in my family, anybody under 10 referred to as a "baby" EffieBlack May 2018 #88
Why was an infant that close? Tipperary May 2018 #142
I saw hundreds of infants at the women's march. Were all those parents "asking for it?" Squinch May 2018 #154
Completely different situation. Tipperary May 2018 #195
The women's march? oberliner May 2018 #199
When live ammunition is used in a crowded situations, the problem bability that people will be still_one May 2018 #44
"sharpshooters. " nt NCTraveler May 2018 #27
i.e. - people who shoot what they are aiming at jberryhill May 2018 #28
No doubt about it. nt. NCTraveler May 2018 #33
To me, RandomAccess May 2018 #31
There is no evidence to support the claim that any child was killed by sniper shot oberliner May 2018 #45
You don't consider teens children? tavernier May 2018 #79
Yeah, but would you let you and yours into a situation like that border mess? Ligyron May 2018 #103
words matter Mosby May 2018 #194
Certainly they matter in a context where they have an agreed meaning jberryhill May 2018 #196
And because they were from the wrong liberalhistorian May 2018 #122
Or they were armed lame54 May 2018 #19
I think slaughter is an acceptable word. NCTraveler May 2018 #4
Thank you for your words of wisdom! cornball 24 May 2018 #30
That's very fair (n/t) leftynyc May 2018 #96
Soldier with a sniper rifle from a safe distance shooting a child with a rock isn't slaughter? NoMoreRepugs May 2018 #5
+1 RandomAccess May 2018 #32
Slaughter usually means killing large numbers oberliner May 2018 #46
Usually it does - rock throwing, even molotov cocktail throwing vs nested sniper is SLAUGHTER to me. NoMoreRepugs May 2018 #145
I have empathy for both the Israelis and Palestinians. DemocratSinceBirth May 2018 #7
I agree. Sophia4 May 2018 #10
Still, moving the American embassy to Jerusalem was intended to incite anger Sophia4 May 2018 #8
Everything you said EffieBlack May 2018 #17
They're attributing a lot of the protest to Hamas organization, as did our loathesome Ambassador maxsolomon May 2018 #14
" I just know there's got to be a better way. " DemocratSinceBirth May 2018 #16
Rump did this to cause killings to show off to his deplorable base who get OFF on seeing Eliot Rosewater May 2018 #59
Eliot, you use the term "brown people" for Palestinians ProudLib72 May 2018 #115
Slaughter is slaughter angrychair May 2018 #15
They didn't use to be trapped in Gaza hack89 May 2018 #18
So that makes it right? angrychair May 2018 #25
" I find it perplexing that a people that lived through what they did..." oberliner May 2018 #51
Speaking of the Jewish people angrychair May 2018 #71
Collectiive punishment treestar May 2018 #105
And argue about whether these mothers' children's murders may appropriately be called a "slaughter." EffieBlack May 2018 #21
I'll have you know that the air conditioning in my restaurant is off jberryhill May 2018 #23
I wonder why they can't cross the Gaza border with Eygpt? EX500rider May 2018 #138
Exactly, oberliner madaboutharry May 2018 #24
"The spreading of this lie needs to stop" jberryhill May 2018 #26
The lie is in quotation marks oberliner May 2018 #63
Okay, could you define "slaughter unarmed children" jberryhill May 2018 #65
An 8 month old child died from inhaling tear gas. That's enough for me. Vinca May 2018 #29
Gazan doctor, Israel cast doubts over Hamas claim infant died from tear gas oberliner May 2018 #60
I would still think Israel is being too heavy handed. Vinca May 2018 #110
Agreed oberliner May 2018 #114
maybe taking your 8 month old baby to a riot in progress is a bad idea. EX500rider May 2018 #140
Tear gas travels. Given the amount it appears was being used, nowhere is safe. Vinca May 2018 #151
Gaza is a 141 square miles. EX500rider May 2018 #155
It probably doesn't matter anyway. By now her parents are probably dead, too. Vinca May 2018 #169
Why would that be? EX500rider May 2018 #170
Oh, for heaven's sake. I already said above I think Israel is being heavy handed. Vinca May 2018 #172
"I have no idea who is or is not dead, wounded or otherwise indisposed and neither do you" EX500rider May 2018 #175
Wow is it that SMALL? City of Houston is 627 square miles lostnfound May 2018 #198
Has lots of empty space: EX500rider May 2018 #200
Isreal gets a pass for the holocaust Liberalhammer May 2018 #35
What the hell? oberliner May 2018 #58
Enjoy your brief stay. n/t Still In Wisconsin May 2018 #87
Europe and the United States and most of the World Liberalhammer May 2018 #125
I'm sick of seeing that leftynyc May 2018 #99
More than that MosheFeingold May 2018 #123
Idiots among us Liberalhammer May 2018 #126
Post removed Post removed May 2018 #134
Seriously Liberalhammer May 2018 #137
You know what I disagree with Liberalhammer May 2018 #143
No but the holocaust crack is. marble falls May 2018 #165
The apartheid lie is an Iranian propaganda meme intended to provoke violence and hatred. Fozzledick May 2018 #180
Lol, yeah, Israelis are time travelers Bradical79 May 2018 #207
In the interest of painting an accurate picture, WaPo is saying there were no Israeli casualties. Girard442 May 2018 #37
Thankfully oberliner May 2018 #57
What else are you thankful for? R B Garr May 2018 #81
Yes, because those are apparently liberalhistorian May 2018 #163
Thus ends the moral authority of the Jews: How many Kids do you need to have a slaughter? doxyluv13 May 2018 #38
The moral authority of the Jews? oberliner May 2018 #56
Have the ADL, the Wiesenthal Center or any major Jewish organizations condemned this crap? doxyluv13 May 2018 #182
What the fuck are you babbling about? leftynyc May 2018 #100
It's Peter Beinart's Crisis of Zionism come to life. doxyluv13 May 2018 #183
I'm guessing IDF bullets grant instant adulthood, with a bonus Hamas membership. denbot May 2018 #39
Look at the Gaza Ministry of Health list oberliner May 2018 #55
Should they be allowed to be enlisted or get married? wellst0nev0ter May 2018 #164
How many Israeli troops died?? PubliusEnigma May 2018 #40
zero Exotica May 2018 #48
Thankfully, none oberliner May 2018 #54
I am blocking you. I don't what your game is but this is an appalling post....one of the worst I Demsrule86 May 2018 #77
That's his job. ret5hd May 2018 #80
maybe...I can't believe any poster would argue that multiple kids must be 'killed' for it to rise Demsrule86 May 2018 #162
You're blocking someone leftynyc May 2018 #101
I am blocking someone who opines that shooting children in the head is not slaughter but merely Demsrule86 May 2018 #161
Yeah, those 50,00 Hamas led criminlas should sit in their own filth The Polack MSgt May 2018 #49
See this: MineralMan May 2018 #50
Yes - everyone should go to that link oberliner May 2018 #52
How many have to die before this rises to your threshold of "slaughter"? Denzil_DC May 2018 #64
Something like this oberliner May 2018 #86
So in the face of an atrocity like that, Denzil_DC May 2018 #89
If it had happened anywhere else MFM008 May 2018 #66
Civilians (including children) are actually being slaughtered around the world every day oberliner May 2018 #68
Yes MFM008 May 2018 #72
Not by an alleged bastion of democracy... a la izquierda May 2018 #203
"a small number of kids" The_Casual_Observer May 2018 #70
It's definitely better that only a small number of teenagers were killed than a large number oberliner May 2018 #73
"only" Denzil_DC May 2018 #75
Seems self evident that fewer deaths is better than more deaths oberliner May 2018 #85
It seems self-evident that you're determined to minimize what's happened. n/t Denzil_DC May 2018 #93
There is no minimizing what happened oberliner May 2018 #120
Good. Denzil_DC May 2018 #159
Oh Jesus, please. The_Casual_Observer May 2018 #78
I have fewer dead kids buried in my basement than John Wayne Gacy did jberryhill May 2018 #90
It is not a lie...children have died and not just yesterday...a giant fuck you to Israel...I will Demsrule86 May 2018 #74
Yes, it is oberliner May 2018 #84
Think it was a false flag operation? Orsino May 2018 #82
No, of course not oberliner May 2018 #83
Israel has become its own enemy. PubliusEnigma May 2018 #91
Okay I condemn their actions HopeAgain May 2018 #102
How about "Israel brutally puts down prison riot"? Bok_Tukalo May 2018 #106
Gaza has a border with Egypt oberliner May 2018 #118
Hey, don't point out the double standard MosheFeingold May 2018 #135
Some of the thinly veiled anti-Semitism in this thread is rather alarming. nt LexVegas May 2018 #107
Because uncomfortable questions treestar May 2018 #111
"Israel gets a pass for the Holocaust." "Thus ends the moral authority of the Jews..." LexVegas May 2018 #119
It does raise an issue treestar May 2018 #128
Explain to me what the "moral authority of the Jews" is and how they "get a pass for the Holocaust". LexVegas May 2018 #129
All you have to do is treestar May 2018 #133
Anti-Semitism? Liberalhammer May 2018 #132
Defending your border from Hamas operatives hiding in a protest and .. EX500rider May 2018 #144
I guess the UN investigation Liberalhammer May 2018 #146
Half the planet doesn't even recognize Israel's existence as a country oberliner May 2018 #188
Thinly veiled?? Seems pretty obvious to me. Fozzledick May 2018 #184
slingshots & bottle rockets v.up to date US military weapons, easy to see the Israelis had no other mulsh May 2018 #108
They have every right to protest and Israel should not have used live ammo against them oberliner May 2018 #117
The whole Palestinian issue could have been solved... MicaelS May 2018 #109
That means open borders treestar May 2018 #136
No, it does not mean open borders. MicaelS May 2018 #211
So they are not allowed to treestar May 2018 #112
Hamas only allows them to organize certain kinds of protests oberliner May 2018 #116
Vague treestar May 2018 #124
Then Israel should post CLEAR PICTURES of "armed squads" with "Explosive devices" Sunlei May 2018 #127
I just hope you're this understanding next time some Israeli kids end up dead... Blue_Tires May 2018 #139
I'm not at all understanding and I completely and wholeheartedly condemn the Israeli actions oberliner May 2018 #149
Among the dead were eight children, including eight-month-old Laila Anwar Ghandour. spanone May 2018 #141
Why was a baby there? Tipperary May 2018 #181
Wow Johnny2X2X May 2018 #147
I'm certain then that proof will be forthcoming from the IDF, right?? Blue_Tires May 2018 #148
From the video footage I saw that was exactly how the "relief" boat episode went. EX500rider May 2018 #174
Sorry, you'll have to do better than wiki Blue_Tires May 2018 #187
Your semantic quibbling - inaccurate, by the way, because it WAS a slaughter - in the face of Squinch May 2018 #153
Thank you for sharing your perspective oberliner May 2018 #191
The truth, imo, is that both sides want the violence to continue. Oneironaut May 2018 #156
"Israel is bloodthirsty" oberliner May 2018 #190
This is such a sad business..... spicysista May 2018 #160
Shooting unarmed civilians is fucking murder. orangecrush May 2018 #173
You debate semantics but the children are still dead. If Israel can't take the heat they shouldn't TeamPooka May 2018 #177
.... spanone May 2018 #178
Go join the IDF before you speak JesterCS May 2018 #185
Post removed Post removed May 2018 #189
if you think oberliner is a bot you haven't been paying attention. Mosby May 2018 #193
If you have your facts right, I agree with you. GitRDun May 2018 #192
It's not a lie/myth Bradical79 May 2018 #204
Yes, it is oberliner May 2018 #205
That's what snipers do. Bradical79 May 2018 #206
 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
1. People here believe what they want to believe
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:28 AM
May 2018

It's that simple. While they ignore that hamas - the elected leaders of the people of gaza - pays families if they martyr their children and puts suicide vest on girls who have been raped so they can leave this world "honorably" and on the mentally deficient.

Amishman

(5,538 posts)
6. Thank you, like many things in the Mideast, this is more complicated than a headline can express
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:40 AM
May 2018

Exaggeration is just another form of lying

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
12. I am a strong supporter of Israel as a Jewish state, but it is not necessary to move
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:46 AM
May 2018

the US embassy to Jerusalem, and that is what the violence on both sides is about.

Now we are in a situation in which rather than moving slowly toward peace and reconciliation, we are moving toward more violence and hate.

Moving our embassy plays right into the hands of Hamas. It is a foolish move. It does not help Israel or the Palestinians, neither side. But it will really hurt Israel the most in the end.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
92. How much more slowly would you like to move?
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:10 PM
May 2018

Israel has been at war with the Palestinians for 70 years in spite of the Palestinians being offered a state many times since 1948. The US passed a law 23 years ago to move the embassy. Israel has proven they will make and keep peace when their partner sits in good faith as proven by both Egypt and Jordan - when have the Palestinians ever proved they wanted anything other than Israel driven into the sea?

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
113. All true, but moving the embassy just makes that bad situation worse.
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:51 PM
May 2018

It's a provocation -- a match in a tinderbox.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
130. Was no need to move that embassy, it was fine! Republicans & RW Israel-foment violence.
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:19 PM
May 2018

and hate.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
158. Let's see
Tue May 15, 2018, 04:10 PM
May 2018

The move was considered provocative because it caused violence and you blame republicans and right wing Israelis but can't seem to muster up any blame for hamas or the other Palestinians who have never done anything but talk about driving Israel into the sea. And that seems fair to so many here at DU.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
166. As I recall, Jerusalem is a holy site for at least 3 religions and was not identified as an
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:06 PM
May 2018

integral part of Israel to be governed by Israel under the mandates that created Israel.

Do you know more about the history on this?

Jerusalem is a sacred site not only for Jewish people but for Christians and Muslims as well. Hence, it was not designated as an official part of Israel.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
202. Yes I know
Wed May 16, 2018, 05:19 AM
May 2018

The history extremely well. It's only under the Israeli government that people of all faiths can worship there. Acttually, that's not true as Jews are still not allowed to pray on the Temple Mount and still can get arrested for that. You were saying....... This embassy is not in East Jerusalem so not in any part of Jerusalem that will not be in Israeli hands under any agreement.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
209. What does this mean?
Wed May 16, 2018, 01:59 PM
May 2018

"This embassy is not in East Jerusalem so not in any part of Jerusalem that will not be in Israeli hands under any agreement."

The original UN mandate did not fully include Jerusalem as a part of Israel. I remember that it was planned that Jerusalem would be governed by institutions representing the religions for which it is a holy city.

"any part of Jerusalem that will not be in Israeli hands under any agreement."

Does that phrase refer to a future agreement placing that part of Jerusalem under Israeli government?

What agreement does that refer to?

Is that part of Jerusalem already, according to an existing agreement, under Israeli government.

I need to add that, while I am not Jewish, there are Jewish members of my extended family including some, now deceased, who were victims and survivors of the Holocaust. I am pro-Israel, but not pro-US-embassy-in-Jerusalem.

Or is it part of a dreamed-of agreement, a wished-for agreement that does not yet exist?

Seems to me there is no need to move the American embassy to a city that is not NOW and under existing agreements, a part of Israel other than to provoke anger among Palestinians. And just what is the point in that?

But then, maybe there is an agreement, and I just don't know about it. What is the truth here? And how many lives is moving the American embassy to Jerusalem really worth? Because that is the score that will be kept by many around the world.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
210. Meaning under any future agreement
Wed May 16, 2018, 02:13 PM
May 2018

The embassy is already in a part of Israel that will remain in Israeli hands. The ONLY part that Palestinians will see is perhaps (if they're ever smart enough to sign an agreement) is East Jerusalem which this new embassy is not in.

The US waited 23 years for an agreement to be made (the law passed to move the embassy to Jerusalem-by a large bipartisan vote was signed in 1995) and this president didn't want to wait any more. I detest donnie but have at least a 100 other things that I'm far more outraged about than this.

tazkcmo

(7,286 posts)
186. The move precipitated the protests
Tue May 15, 2018, 06:14 PM
May 2018

There is no surprise that the move of the embassy has caused widespread protests by Palestinians who had no say in this move. So no, there is no mention of Hamas. In this particular circumstance, even though Hamas does not have clean hands, what can you point to that justifies the firing of live ammunition into a crowd unarmed protesters?

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
201. 40000 people trying
Wed May 16, 2018, 05:15 AM
May 2018

To storm a border. Fires set, explosions planted. There is no country in the world that would stand by. And what kind of parent brings their kids along for that? Looks like hamas propaganda arm is alive and well.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,146 posts)
36. Can you explain the difference between "slaughtering unarmed children" and "killing kids"?
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:20 PM
May 2018

Since you have recommended this thread, and judging from your reply, you also think "slaughtering unarmed children" is "a lie", but "killing kids" seems to be accurate - and the OP said is was.

So, what's the difference? Why is one "a lie"? I'd ask the thread starter, but they seem to have fucked off, despite the number of replies to them talking about this.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
42. Slaughter means "kill (people or animals) in a cruel or violent way, typically in large numbers."
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:41 PM
May 2018

That's not what happened.

Some kids were killed - which is why you can say that accurately.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,146 posts)
47. Yes, shooting is violent; "typically" does not mean exclusively
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:52 PM
May 2018

Will you retract your inflammatory accusation of "lie" now you've shown yourself wrong? It seems aimed at a DU. Why would you be so divisive?

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
69. I was unaware that slaughter was "cruel or violent" anyway
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:12 PM
May 2018

What sort of people do we have working in our slaughterhouses?

IMHO, "slaughter" is pretty much indifferent to either cruelty or violence, or perhaps Oberliner is a vegetarian.
 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
67. In a "cruel of violent way"
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:11 PM
May 2018

I'm pretty sure we have establishments called "slaughterhouses" where animals are regularly "slaughtered" in a way that comports with all relevant regulations on the humane treatment of animals.

I would not think my butcher is engaged in either cruelty nor violence.

So the children were killed in a non-violent way?

procon

(15,805 posts)
98. Epic fail. Use any trite phrase you like, it won't change the fact that Israel
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:18 PM
May 2018

ordered their military to kill children and civilians. The twisted semantics being pushed by Israel would have the world believe that this massacre is somehow justified because the opposing political faction may (or may not) have paid Palestinian civilians to protest. That's a fairly standard tactic, even in the US, and does not excuse the murders.

With all the possible options and equipment available to Israel's military, why is lethal force always the primary method of crowd control?

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
94. I'm still waiting for anyone
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:15 PM
May 2018

to explain what the fuck children were even doing there. Normal parents do anything they can to protect their children and wouldn't ever dream in placing them in harms way. I wonder how much has to do with terrorist hamas promising to throw piles of money at any family that coughs up a martyr?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/04/28/palestinians-are-rewarding-terrorists-the-u-s-should-stop-enabling-them/?utm_term=.dd7306ba1940

40,000 people were storming the Israeli border yesterday - what would any country in the entire world do in response to that?

muriel_volestrangler

(101,146 posts)
104. What children were doing where they live? I don't know, would you like them expelled
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:37 PM
May 2018

and made stateless? Parked in the middle of the Mediterranean, perhaps? Or are you saying you'll campaign for the USA to offer citizenship to all Palestinian children?

Most countries would not use live fire to deter a demonstration. But Israel is OK with shooting demonstrators. That's 'normal' for Israeli government supporters too.

EX500rider

(10,517 posts)
167. Gaza is 141 square mile...
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:09 PM
May 2018

....are you under the impression everyone shot just strolled out their front door?

The pictures i have seen show no houses close to the border riots.
So yes, why the fuck would you bring your children to a Hamas inspired riot in progress?

muriel_volestrangler

(101,146 posts)
168. Would I let my children go to a protest for their rights?
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:13 PM
May 2018

Yes, of course the fuck I would.

Would I shoot unarmed children, or adults, 150 feet away from a border fence? Of course the fuck I would not.

Let's be clear: the killers were the Israeli troops, apparently under orders from the Israeli government. We know who, morally, we should be on the side of - the victims, not the perpetrators.

EX500rider

(10,517 posts)
171. You would let your young children go to a Hamas inspired riot and attempted..
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:25 PM
May 2018

...border breech of the well guarded Israeli border wall?
Bad idea if you care about their safety....less so if you only care about making Israel look bad I suppose.
I wouldn't take kids to any place tear gas is going to be used, much less live fire.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,146 posts)
176. What you call a riot, they all see as a protest - the only way to get the world
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:33 PM
May 2018

to listen to their plight. I'm sure plenty of white Southerners dismissed MLK's marches as riots too - after all, people got hurt. The thing to remember in both cases is which side initiated the violence, and suffered the overwhelming casualties.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
41. It makes it impossible to have a discussion about this topic
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:33 PM
May 2018

Which is probably why it has its own forum and usually posts on I/P aren't allowed in other forums.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
95. When people only want to blame one side
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:17 PM
May 2018

I detest bibi and hate the current Israeli government. That doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and let lie after lie be told about Israel and let anyone place the entire blame on them. I'll fight that until my last breath.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
131. That is right wingers
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:19 PM
May 2018

Even so doing all that does not justify killing other teens. It boils down to collective punishment. We are always supposed to agree with Israeli acts because Hamas is bad and they elected them so they all deserve death anyway.

We elected the dotard and by that standard we deserve what we get.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
13. Yes, but Oberliner is objecting to the phrase "slaughter unarmed children"
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:48 AM
May 2018

While Oberliner's post does not address the truth or falsity of the "unarmed" part, Oberliner makes it clear that instead of "slaughter unarmed children", "most tragically and condemnable, a small number of kids" were killed by being shot by sharpshooters.

Huge difference.

They were not "slaughtered". The were most tragically and condemably shot by snipers. And just a small number.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
20. Do you know how many children were "shot by snipers?"
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:05 PM
May 2018

I wonder exactly how many babies have to be “shot by snipers” before people in faraway lands deem it appropriate to call it a “slaughter.”

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
22. I believe that may be a good question to ask Oberliner
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:08 PM
May 2018

My copy of the Handbook of Online Rhetorical Bullshitting is out of date. Perhaps Oberliner has one with the most recent supplements.

Demsrule86

(68,347 posts)
76. Well a snipers bullet in the head is not 'slaughter' why just killing... ridiculous for the OP to
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:29 PM
May 2018

say this.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
43. No babies were shot by snipers so that is just a lie
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:47 PM
May 2018

The Gaza Ministry of Health lists four people killed who were under the age of 18, two of them were 16, one was 15, and one was 14.

They also list one infant who they say was killed due to tear gas inhalation, but that has been disputed by other sources.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
62. Your OP refers to "unarmed children"
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:03 PM
May 2018

I do not know the age of majority in Israel, so whether the four in question are not adults in Israel is an open question.

But since your OP talks about "lying", and doesn't mention "babies", then have you moved the goalposts here?

So, to be clear on the proper form of condemnation which you believe is warranted, your OP seemed to object to use of the word "children"?
 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
88. I use "babies" in the colloquial sense - in my family, anybody under 10 referred to as a "baby"
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:05 PM
May 2018

Maybe it’s a black thing ...

still_one

(91,937 posts)
44. When live ammunition is used in a crowded situations, the problem bability that people will be
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:49 PM
May 2018

injured or killed increases dramatically

It doesn’t take rocket science to predict something like this would happen

The people who led us into invading Iraq are guiding our ME policy now. After all that worked out so well


 

RandomAccess

(5,210 posts)
31. To me,
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:14 PM
May 2018

one child killed by sniper shot is slaughter. Especially when quite a few unarmed adults are also killed.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
45. There is no evidence to support the claim that any child was killed by sniper shot
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:49 PM
May 2018

The Gaza Ministry of Health lists 4 teenagers younger than 18 killed and 1 infant who they claim died from tear gas, but that has been disputed.

tavernier

(12,322 posts)
79. You don't consider teens children?
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:34 PM
May 2018

I still play “This little piggy” with my 14 year old grandson (when I can pin him down on the couch) because it was his favorite tickle game for years, and now it makes us both laugh at the silliness.

I would die with grief if someone mowed down his young life with a round of bullets.

Ligyron

(7,592 posts)
103. Yeah, but would you let you and yours into a situation like that border mess?
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:33 PM
May 2018

I'd keep my kids and myself far, far away. Everybody knew what was liable to happen.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
196. Certainly they matter in a context where they have an agreed meaning
Tue May 15, 2018, 09:41 PM
May 2018

But there appears to be quite a range of opinions as to what “slaughter” might mean, rendering it difficult to understand why the OP considers these three words in sequence to be a lie.

liberalhistorian

(20,809 posts)
122. And because they were from the wrong
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:00 PM
May 2018

"group", I guess that just doesn't count, right? Or so I've been hearing too many people say today. Considering that my tax dollars helped provide the weaponry and equipment that murdered protestors rightfully angry about this ridiculous and provocative move, it's infuriating and sickening.

Whatever waning support I once had for Israel is now gone, if it wasn't already when they re-elected Netanyahu, a member of the party that directly enshrines ethnic cleansing of "animal" Palestinians in their party platform.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
4. I think slaughter is an acceptable word.
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:37 AM
May 2018

I just think Hamas should be equally blamed.

There are very few good players in any of this. Life is simply not worth living for many Palestinians and they are lied to and treated horribly by their own government and factions.

The people being killed are victims. They aren’t some military group trying to regain land. They are pawns for the powerful. We shouldn’t minimize how they are being victimized.

They all have blood on their hands. The US has blood on its hands.

NoMoreRepugs

(9,257 posts)
5. Soldier with a sniper rifle from a safe distance shooting a child with a rock isn't slaughter?
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:38 AM
May 2018

I'm not endorsing the "myth/lie" - just posing the question that if it isn't slaughter what is it?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
46. Slaughter usually means killing large numbers
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:51 PM
May 2018

The figures from the Gaza Ministry of Health show that of the 58 killed, 4 were teenagers under the age of 18, and 1 was an infant whom they claim died of asphyxiation from tear gas (though this has been disputed).

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
7. I have empathy for both the Israelis and Palestinians.
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:42 AM
May 2018

Moving the embassy to Jerusalem only inflamed the situation. That's why Trump's predecessors said they would move the embassy but never did.

The problem is there are Israelis and Palestinians who deny the other's nationalist aspirations and claim to the land. Here is a great essay on the tragedy:

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/israel-palestine-embassy-legitimacy/560291/

Prior to the advent of Trump I used to believe there were no disputes that were intractable and reasonable folks could find common ground and give a little to get a little and solve their differences peacefully. I no longer believe that. If I can't find common ground between myself and Trump's rabid supporters how can Israelis and Palestinians find common ground ?

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
8. Still, moving the American embassy to Jerusalem was intended to incite anger
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:43 AM
May 2018

and violence. It is wrong to move the embassy at this time.

And I fully support the existence of Israel. That is not the issue here.

The General Assembly voted overwhelmingly during a rare emergency meeting today to ask nations not to establish diplomatic missions in the historic city of Jerusalem, as delegates warned that the recent decision by the United States to do so risked igniting a religious war across the already turbulent Middle East and even beyond.

By a recorded vote of 128 in favour to 9 against (Guatemala, Honduras, Israel, Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Togo, United States), with 35 abstentions, the Assembly adopted the resolution “Status of Jerusalem”, by which it declared “null and void” any actions intended to alter Jerusalem’s character, status or demographic composition. Calling on all States to refrain from establishing embassies in the Holy City, it also demanded that they comply with all relevant Security Council resolutions and work to reverse the “negative trends” imperilling a two‑State resolution of the Israeli‑Palestinian conflict.

“We meet today not because of any animosity to the United States of America,” insisted Riad Al‑Malki, Minister for Foreign Affairs of the State of Palestine. Instead, the emergency session had been called to make the voice of the vast majority of the international community — and that of people around the world — heard on the question of Jerusalem/Al‑Quds Al‑Sharif. He described the 6 December decision by the United States to recognize the city as Israel’s capital, and to move its embassy there, as an aggressive and dangerous move, cautioning that it could inflame tensions and lead to a religious war that “has no boundaries”.

He went on to state that the decision would have no impact on the Holy City’s status, but it nevertheless compromised the role of the United States in the peace process. Moreover, it did nothing but serve the forces of extremism around the world, he said, pointing out that even the closest allies of the United States could not turn a blind eye to its actions. The Assembly was meeting in the wake of the Security Council’s failure to adopt a similar draft resolution, even as 14 of its 15 members had voted in its favour. “The veto will not stop us,” he declared in that regard, underlining that Al‑Quds “will not fall to any siege, monopolization or domination

. . . .

https://www.un.org/press/en/2017/ga11995.doc.htm

I am very aware of the need for the State of Israel as a sanctuary for Jewish people who were discriminated against and killed over many centuries in their diaspora. I have visited a WWII concentration camp, and although I am not personally Jewish, I am aware of the many, many homeless survivors including orphan children after WWII and the many, many Jewish people who left Europe after WWII to settle in countries around the world, not just Israel.

But, it is inflammatory and self-righteous for the US to decide to move our embassy to Jerusalem which is a city of spiritual and historical importance not just to the Jewish people but to the Muslims also. Moving our embassy is just intended to cause conflict. It's simply another stupidly cruel Trump move. And Trump owes the world an explanation.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
17. Everything you said
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:58 AM
May 2018

I could have written this myself:

I am very aware of the need for the State of Israel as a sanctuary for Jewish people who were discriminated against and killed over many centuries in their diaspora. I have visited a WWII concentration camp, and although I am not personally Jewish, I am aware of the many, many homeless survivors including orphan children after WWII and the many, many Jewish people who left Europe after WWII to settle in countries around the world, not just Israel.

But, it is inflammatory and self-righteous for the US to decide to move our embassy to Jerusalem which is a city of spiritual and historical importance not just to the Jewish people but to the Muslims also. Moving our embassy is just intended to cause conflict. It's simply another stupidly cruel Trump move. And Trump owes the world an explanation.


I, too, have been deeply immersed in this issue since infancy. Although I’m not Jewish myself, I have several Jewish relatives, quasi-godparents who were Holocaust survivors, and grew up in a community of Holocaust survivors (mostly from Auschwitz, as evidenced by their tattoos, which fascinated me as a child but I knew not to ask about and led me to visit concentration camps to get answers to questions I dared not ask). I studied the Holocaust and the creation of Israel in-depth in college and was involved in the Middle East Peace Talks in the 1990s. So, while I would never claim to be an expert on this topic, I am knowledgeable and sympathetic and, I hope, always open-minded. And I agree that moving the embassy was craven, ill-advised and intended to inflame and insult. It is a tragedy and a shame.

maxsolomon

(32,975 posts)
14. They're attributing a lot of the protest to Hamas organization, as did our loathesome Ambassador
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:52 AM
May 2018

in his NPR fluff piece/interview, but I don't see corroboration fro inside Gaza in this report. Amy Goodman had a journalist on yesterday who said the protests were organized outside of Hamas. Hamas has mobile phones, does Haaretz call them to ask?

I don't know one way or the other. I just know there's got to be a better way.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,704 posts)
16. " I just know there's got to be a better way. "
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:58 AM
May 2018

That's the gravamen . I understand Israel was justiably concerned about people breaching the fence. Could they have prevented people from breaching the fence without lethal force ?

Eliot Rosewater

(31,096 posts)
59. Rump did this to cause killings to show off to his deplorable base who get OFF on seeing
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:59 PM
May 2018

brown people die.

Not more complicated than that.

And I dont buy the bullshit of people who go out of their way to defend what happened when they dont also do what you did, point out the point that both groups deserve to exist. So thank you for pointing that out, certain others will never do that.

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
115. Eliot, you use the term "brown people" for Palestinians
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:54 PM
May 2018

Most of the Palestinians I've met have been indistinguishable from your average white person. So let's cut to the chase and call these people poor, marginalized Muslims who can be pushed around for the sake of showing off to the xtian fundies who truly believe this is another Crusade.

angrychair

(8,592 posts)
15. Slaughter is slaughter
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:57 AM
May 2018

Killing a child or any other human being that may be throwing rocks, while looking through the scope of a high powered weapon from a secured position 50 or more meters away from said rock throwers, is a slaughter.

Gaza is a strip of land a bit larger than DC, in which roughly 2 million people live. The vast majority cannot travel or work outside this small area. They are trapped in a prison. The world watches and mumbles and spares not a fuck to give.
Then we wonder from our comfortable homes why these people have no hope and hate everyone around them and armchair quarterback the killings of dozens and injuring of hundreds while sipping coffee in an air conditioned restaurant.

Classy.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
18. They didn't use to be trapped in Gaza
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:00 PM
May 2018

Palestinians use to freely work in Israel. Then the bombings in Israel started.

angrychair

(8,592 posts)
25. So that makes it right?
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:12 PM
May 2018

Makes it right to hold 2 million people in a virtual prison?

I know, I know, they should just be happy they are allowed to live.

I find it perplexing that a people that lived through what they did and experienced the dehumanization, imprisonment, torture and death on the scale they did, would find a better way forward.

angrychair

(8,592 posts)
71. Speaking of the Jewish people
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:16 PM
May 2018

And their experience during WWII and actually long before that. There are many points throughout history where the Jewish people have been unfairly targeted based on there faith alone.

Sorry, I can see where the subject of that paragraph may be confusing.

 

EffieBlack

(14,249 posts)
21. And argue about whether these mothers' children's murders may appropriately be called a "slaughter."
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:08 PM
May 2018

madaboutharry

(40,148 posts)
24. Exactly, oberliner
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:11 PM
May 2018

The truth is bad enough. There is no need to embellish it with inflammatory language.

Moving the embassy to Jerusalem was insanity. The response of the Israeli military to the unrest in Gaza is open to harsh criticism.

Peace seems further away than it ever was.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
26. "The spreading of this lie needs to stop"
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:12 PM
May 2018

A lie is a knowing intentional falsehood.

Please specify the lie in question.

You state that an unspecified number of children where "condemnably" shot by sharpshooters. I take "sharpshooter" to mean someone who knows what they are pointing their gun at.

Please state the acceptable form of such condemnation.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
63. The lie is in quotation marks
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:03 PM
May 2018

Israel did not slaughter unarmed children. That is a lie.

The number of people under 18 killed (according the Gaza Ministry of Information) is 5, 2 of whom were 16, one 15 and one 14. They also list an infant who they claim died of tear gas inhalation, but that has been disputed.

The acceptable form of condemnation is to say that the Israeli army should have used non-lethal force against the tens of thousands of people who attempted to breach its border.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
65. Okay, could you define "slaughter unarmed children"
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:04 PM
May 2018

You do not dispute they were "unarmed".

You do not dispute they were "children".

I gather the problem of the "lie" is in the definition of "slaughter"?

The quote is "slaughter unarmed children". Please specify the knowingly false statement embodied in that phrase.

Among the 1000 wounded, I gather there were no children? Or is wounding them also okay and not condemnable? Should any of the wounded end up dying from those wounds, the we will revisit whatever definition you propose for "slaughter".

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
60. Gazan doctor, Israel cast doubts over Hamas claim infant died from tear gas
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:59 PM
May 2018
A Gaza health official cast doubt Tuesday on initial claims that an 8-month-old baby died from Israeli tear gas fired during mass protests on the Gaza border with Israel.

A Gazan doctor told the Associated Press that the baby, Layla Ghandour, had a preexisting medical condition and that he did not believe her death was caused by tear gas. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not allowed to disclose medical information to the media.

Layla’s family claimed Tuesday that the baby had ended up in the area of the protest as a result of a mixup, the AP reported added. The Gaza Health Ministry initially counted her among several dozen Palestinians killed Monday.

A Gaza human rights group, Al Mezan, said it was looking into the circumstances of the infant’s death.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/gazan-doctor-israel-cast-doubts-over-claim-infant-died-from-tear-gas/


How would you feel if it turns out the Palestinian side lied about this for PR purposes?

Vinca

(50,168 posts)
110. I would still think Israel is being too heavy handed.
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:45 PM
May 2018

Trump essentially gave them the green light and they're taking it. No peace talks for a long, long time . . . if ever.

EX500rider

(10,517 posts)
170. Why would that be?
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:22 PM
May 2018

Over 10,000 protesters with 58 killed on Monday and 100 over the 6 weeks gives that very a low probability of having happened.

Vinca

(50,168 posts)
172. Oh, for heaven's sake. I already said above I think Israel is being heavy handed.
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:27 PM
May 2018

I have no idea who is or is not dead, wounded or otherwise indisposed and neither do you.

EX500rider

(10,517 posts)
175. "I have no idea who is or is not dead, wounded or otherwise indisposed and neither do you"
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:32 PM
May 2018

Sure I do, their names are right here in this post:

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210617092

lostnfound

(16,138 posts)
198. Wow is it that SMALL? City of Houston is 627 square miles
Tue May 15, 2018, 11:17 PM
May 2018

I can’t imagine being trapped in such a small place.

 

Liberalhammer

(576 posts)
125. Europe and the United States and most of the World
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:10 PM
May 2018

Have turned a blind in the past at Israel's agression, way before this last mass murder.

I don't buy the excuse it's because Israel is a democracy , it's because of guilt over the Holocaust where A blind eye was turned to the plight of European Jews by the US and other countries before and during the genocide.

I see that same dynamic now with Palestinians, the world turning a blind eye and Israel being the aggressor. No, it won't lead to mass genocide, but ethnic cleansing.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
99. I'm sick of seeing that
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:22 PM
May 2018

imbecilic use of the word apartheid used for Israel. There were ZERO blacks part of the south african government under apartheid. Currently 16 non-Jewish members of the Israeli parliament (including the first Arab woman).

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
123. More than that
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:01 PM
May 2018

The 20% of Israeli citizens who are Arab are full Israeli citizens. While most Arabs are not subject to the draft (the Bedouins and the Druze volunteered to be subject to the draft), they increasingly serve in the IDF and are proud Israelis.

Why? Because Arabs in Israel are the most prosperous, wealthy, educated, and happy Arabs in all of the middle east. They are not subject to religious tyranny. In fact, the RICHEST AND MOST EDUCATED demographic in Israel is --- Christian Arabs. Note, many of these Arabs fled the PA because, as Christians, they were subject to massive discrimination, crimes, and general hate by the Iranian-controlled Hamas.

As I've often said, making a subgroup the wealthiest group in your country is a pretty piss-poor way of doing apartheid.

The Arabs in the PA are a self-selected group of religious nuts who refused to live among Jews as equals. They wanted Jews to die. Well, they failed, and yet keep trying.

As for the attacks, there are funded by Hamas (and thus Iran), roughly half of the dead are members of the Hamas security apparatus, and they are charging the border with Molotov cocktails, grenades, explosives, and guns. Interviews with them reveal (and I quote) they say "I want to get over the fence and kill Jews."

The fact we give Hamas even the benefit of the doubt at this point is antisemitism.

I am the last Democratic party member in my Orthodox shul. They look at me like I am an idiot.

The party of Harry Truman (who saved Israel) should not tolerate such idiots among us.

Response to Liberalhammer (Reply #126)

 

Liberalhammer

(576 posts)
143. You know what I disagree with
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:34 PM
May 2018

It's Isreal slaughtering people and the USA supporting the slaughter, and the world ignoring it, and you justifying it.

Is that antisemetic?

Fozzledick

(3,859 posts)
180. The apartheid lie is an Iranian propaganda meme intended to provoke violence and hatred.
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:41 PM
May 2018

Its not surprising to see anti-Semites using the big lie technique, but its easy to see where they're coming from when they use one that's so recognizable.

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
207. Lol, yeah, Israelis are time travelers
Wed May 16, 2018, 07:58 AM
May 2018

That's one of the more blatantly idiotic anti-semitic posts I've seen on the internet.

doxyluv13

(247 posts)
182. Have the ADL, the Wiesenthal Center or any major Jewish organizations condemned this crap?
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:45 PM
May 2018

I can't find that they have and unless you can provide some instances (in which case I'll apologize) the comment means exactly what it says.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
100. What the fuck are you babbling about?
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:24 PM
May 2018

Moral authority of the Jews? Why is it that threads like this bring out the most disgusting posters this site has ever had to deal with (ban)?

denbot

(9,894 posts)
39. I'm guessing IDF bullets grant instant adulthood, with a bonus Hamas membership.
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:30 PM
May 2018

But hey, defend the slaughtering of civilians by soldiers anyway that helps you “live your values”.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
55. Look at the Gaza Ministry of Health list
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:57 PM
May 2018

Last edited Tue May 15, 2018, 05:00 PM - Edit history (1)

They indicate the ages of those who were killed.

Demsrule86

(68,347 posts)
77. I am blocking you. I don't what your game is but this is an appalling post....one of the worst I
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:30 PM
May 2018

have ever seen.

Demsrule86

(68,347 posts)
162. maybe...I can't believe any poster would argue that multiple kids must be 'killed' for it to rise
Tue May 15, 2018, 04:43 PM
May 2018

to the level of 'slaughter'. You couldn't pay me to say such things.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
101. You're blocking someone
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:25 PM
May 2018

who is glad no Israeli's died? Is the inverse of that that you'll throw a parade for a poster who would be thrilled if they had?

Demsrule86

(68,347 posts)
161. I am blocking someone who opines that shooting children in the head is not slaughter but merely
Tue May 15, 2018, 04:41 PM
May 2018

a 'killing'...And who wrote a post defending what israel has done to Palestinians...it makes me sick.

The Polack MSgt

(13,159 posts)
49. Yeah, those 50,00 Hamas led criminlas should sit in their own filth
Tue May 15, 2018, 12:53 PM
May 2018

And be happy with whatever their captors choose to do with 'em.

It's the Palestinians own fault for thinking that the IDF would balk at killing children - They haven't declined to fire on kids in decades.

Denzil_DC

(7,186 posts)
64. How many have to die before this rises to your threshold of "slaughter"?
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:03 PM
May 2018

Mealy-mouthed parsing from the comfort of a computer can't gloss over the horror and loss, and the lasting resentment that will only fuel further atrocities (and I can find no other sensible word for this).

It reminds me of "An Interactive Guide to Ambiguous Grammar" - https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-interactive-guide-to-ambiguous-grammar

Depending on whom you ask, the use of the active voice over the passive is arguably the most fundamental writer’s maxim, thought to lend weight, truth, and power to declarative statements. This absolutist view is flawed, however, because language is an art of nuance. From time to time, writers may well find illustrative value in the lightest of phrases, sentences so weightless and feathery that they scarcely even seem to exist at all. These can convey details well beyond the crude thrust of the hulking active voice, and when used strictly as ornamentation, they needn’t actually convey anything at all.

As a thought experiment, let’s examine in extremely close detail a set of iterative changes that can be made to a single simple grammatical structure, turning it from a statement taken at face value into one loaded with unrealized implication. This makes for rich writing which rewards – or even demands – close scrutiny.

The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.

[A longish read, IMHO well worth following to the end]

We have finally fully arrived at the ultimate in passive voice: the past exonerative tense, so named because culpability is impossible when actions no longer exist. For the most extensive erasure of direct communicative value, the original object can now even be removed entirely.

Speed was involved in a jumping‑related incident with a lazy dog while a fox was brown.


 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
86. Something like this
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:56 PM
May 2018
Burma: Rohingya Muslim babies and children 'being slaughtered with knives', UN warns

Babies and children have been slaughtered with knives during a military campaign on Rohingya Muslims in Burma, according to a series of accounts in a disturbing UN report.

An eight-month-old, a five-year-old and a six-year-old were all reportedly stabbed to death in their own homes during so-called “area clearance operations” by Burmese security services, which are reported to have killed hundreds of people since 9 October, in a Rohingya-dominated area in northwest Rakhine State.

The chilling accounts, described by the UN as “revolting”, are outlined in a flash report from the United Nations Human Rights office. The report, which has been released early because of its alarming nature, is based on interviews with more than 200 Rohingya refugees who have recently entered Bangladesh after fleeing from violence they faced in Rakhine.

One mother recounted in the report how her five-year-old daughter was trying to protect her from rape when a man “took out a long knife and killed her by slitting her throat”, while in another case an eight-month-old baby was reportedly killed while his mother was gang-raped by five security officers.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/burma-rohingya-muslim-babies-children-slaughtered-knives-massacre-genocide-un-warns-a7561711.html


It's not just about the numbers, it's the use of the term and what it connotes (such as the above).

Denzil_DC

(7,186 posts)
89. So in the face of an atrocity like that,
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:08 PM
May 2018

would you be quibbling pointlessly about the terminology employed to describe it and looking to allocate blame on both sides, or condemning it outright for what it is?

What's preferable - death dealt at a distance by a sanitized, well-aimed bullet from a sheltering, heavily armored soldier from one of the most sophisticated military forces in the world, or the revolting honesty of a slit throat at close quarters?

Both end up with kids dead.

This is the horrible absurdity arguments like yours lead to.

I have no problem condemning both without worrying about the words used. If you were at all consistent, nor would you.

You're doing the Israeli government's side - and I emphasize that, as I'm insistent on acknowledging solidarity with the significant number of Israelis who are appalled their government's and armed forces' conduct - no favors with OPs like this.

In fact, OPs like this are just inflammatory.

MFM008

(19,774 posts)
66. If it had happened anywhere else
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:08 PM
May 2018

Rock throwing protesters gunned down by elite troops the world would be roiling.
Theres a problem on this planet and 2 main ones are sitting as the most corrupt administrations in their nations histories both desperate for a distraction and support from their right wing fanatics.
No not Iran but alleged bastions of democracy....

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
68. Civilians (including children) are actually being slaughtered around the world every day
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:12 PM
May 2018

Posts about the ongoing conflicts across Africa, for instance, barely get noticed here.

MFM008

(19,774 posts)
72. Yes
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:25 PM
May 2018

But not by an alleged bastion of democracy
With American made weapons.
As we all know Israel has the Palestinians
Locked into a confined area.
Occupied, sealed off.
Trapped.
Massacres ANYWHERE in the world
Should be ardently condemed.

a la izquierda

(11,784 posts)
203. Not by an alleged bastion of democracy...
Wed May 16, 2018, 06:08 AM
May 2018

That gets shitloads of money and support from another alleged bastion of democracy (that would be us).

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
120. There is no minimizing what happened
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:58 PM
May 2018

It was awful and I condemn the use of live ammo by the Israeli forces.

Denzil_DC

(7,186 posts)
159. Good.
Tue May 15, 2018, 04:13 PM
May 2018

It was an awful, unnecessary, and in the long run counter-productive series of acts. Pretty much the world's most sophisticated military had a number of alternatives, but its leaders chose this course of action.

So why quibble over a word, or sidetrack into a definition predicated on numbers or whatever you've turned to arguing over since I last posted?

Demsrule86

(68,347 posts)
74. It is not a lie...children have died and not just yesterday...a giant fuck you to Israel...I will
Tue May 15, 2018, 01:27 PM
May 2018

never support this violent country again...I had a soft spot for years given the history...but no more. Oh and my Grandparents on my Dad's side were Jewish.

PubliusEnigma

(1,583 posts)
91. Israel has become its own enemy.
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:10 PM
May 2018
41. The Empire is the institution, the codification, of derangement; it is insane and imposes its insanity on us by violence, since its nature is a violent one.

42. To fight the Empire is to be infected by its derangement. This is a paradox: whoever defeats a segment of the Empire becomes the Empire; it proliferates like a virus, imposing its form on its enemies. Thereby it becomes its enemies.

-PKD, Valis

Bok_Tukalo

(4,322 posts)
106. How about "Israel brutally puts down prison riot"?
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:39 PM
May 2018

"Prisoners who had been found guilty of being Palestinians and sentenced to incarceration tried unsuccessfully to break out of their open air jail and were met with deadly force by Israeli prison guards."

MosheFeingold

(3,051 posts)
135. Hey, don't point out the double standard
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:27 PM
May 2018

Egypt is perfectly reasonable to keep out religious nut bags from invading its country.

Jews, on the other hand, are evil people for not agreeing to die peaceably.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
111. Because uncomfortable questions
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:48 PM
May 2018

Are anti Semitic. I’m tired of posts like this. Passive aggressive. What I this thread are you labeling as anti semitic? Too often one sees mere questions regarding Israeli acts in any way described that way

treestar

(82,383 posts)
128. It does raise an issue
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:17 PM
May 2018

Not to be discussed or we are anti Semitic. I mean why not answer? Don’t we hold Israel to the same standards regarding international acts as any other country?

Why if we sympathize with the other side for even a second are we labeled antiSemitic?

LexVegas

(6,005 posts)
129. Explain to me what the "moral authority of the Jews" is and how they "get a pass for the Holocaust".
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:19 PM
May 2018

treestar

(82,383 posts)
133. All you have to do is
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:25 PM
May 2018

Say Israel is not allowed by us to get away with more than other countries can.

I suppose the idea is that as victims of the holocaust, we can now take whatever land we want and any opposition to that is wrong. So make the case that is not true.

IMHO the West Bank settlements are wrong in that they undermine the two state solution.

 

Liberalhammer

(576 posts)
132. Anti-Semitism?
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:21 PM
May 2018

How about a reason for why the world has let Israel get away with its aggression?

So am I to believe in situational principles? It's bad to commit murder of unarmed civilians if it's in Syria, but okay if Israel dies the same thing?

EX500rider

(10,517 posts)
144. Defending your border from Hamas operatives hiding in a protest and ..
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:36 PM
May 2018

....trying to get close enough to the border wall to plant explosives is hardly "aggression".

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
188. Half the planet doesn't even recognize Israel's existence as a country
Tue May 15, 2018, 06:52 PM
May 2018

There are countries that have relations with the most vile, brutal dictatorships in the world and yet still do not even recognize Israel.

mulsh

(2,959 posts)
108. slingshots & bottle rockets v.up to date US military weapons, easy to see the Israelis had no other
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:43 PM
May 2018

choice but to fire on marginally armed insurgents.

Why those peoples in Gaza keep picking on Israel is a mystery.

Rolling burning tires is much more harmful than toting the latest in US arms. Throw a rock hard and far enough and you might damage expensive protective clothing or put an eye out.

Really, why the Palestinains didn't all move to Syria, Lebanon, or Jordan 70 years ago I'll never know.

they could at least SFU after all these years.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
117. They have every right to protest and Israel should not have used live ammo against them
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:56 PM
May 2018

The situation in Gaza is awful and Israel is doing nothing to help (and does not particularly wish to do so).

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
109. The whole Palestinian issue could have been solved...
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:44 PM
May 2018

Years ago, if their Muslim brothers would have given them citizenship in their countries, but they did not. Instead they want to keep the plight of the Palestinians as a club they can use to beat Israel over the head with, while simultaneously diverting attention from their own repressive regimes. No one wants the Palestinians, especially Saudi Arabia.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
136. That means open borders
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:28 PM
May 2018

To an extent for them. Which means right wingers cannot use that argument.

Should the USA also have had to take them and give them citizenship? Other countries? Whatever their motives , they get to decide who is a citizen of their countries. Or none of us can.

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)
211. No, it does not mean open borders.
Wed May 16, 2018, 03:08 PM
May 2018

It means that their Muslim brothers say to them.."Come to our country and be a citizen." And no, the US should not have to, since it is not a Muslim nation.

I repeat what I said earlier....

they want to keep the plight of the Palestinians as a club they can use to beat Israel over the head with, while simultaneously diverting attention from their own repressive regimes.
 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
116. Hamas only allows them to organize certain kinds of protests
Tue May 15, 2018, 02:55 PM
May 2018

A protest against Hamas, for instance, wouldn't fly.

They support and encourage (and pay for) protests that involve attempting to breach the border with Israel - knowing that this could be the result.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
124. Vague
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:04 PM
May 2018

If they breached a fence, they wouldn’t last long.

Hamas is a dictatorship? I have heard the Palestinians condemned as a group for electing them.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
127. Then Israel should post CLEAR PICTURES of "armed squads" with "Explosive devices"
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:15 PM
May 2018

Or I don't believe them, 50 dead and 200 plus wounlded and LIVE fire- isn't right.

"soldiers shot armed squads who tried to place explosive devices at the fence"

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
139. I just hope you're this understanding next time some Israeli kids end up dead...
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:31 PM
May 2018

And having said that, I'll see myself out.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
149. I'm not at all understanding and I completely and wholeheartedly condemn the Israeli actions
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:49 PM
May 2018

Any children dying is awful and tragic and the Israeli side should not have used live ammo as I've written several times on this and other threads.

spanone

(135,627 posts)
141. Among the dead were eight children, including eight-month-old Laila Anwar Ghandour.
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:32 PM
May 2018

call eight children dead what you like....i call it a fucking SLAUGHTER.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/15/middleeast/gaza-protests-israel-intl/index.html

Johnny2X2X

(18,731 posts)
147. Wow
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:44 PM
May 2018

There is something called an appropriate level of response, this wasn't it. Slaughter is too harsh? How about, relieved of their life? Bibi is a thug and his military is committing war crimes.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
148. I'm certain then that proof will be forthcoming from the IDF, right??
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:45 PM
May 2018

I remember a clean, slick, highly detailed and perfectly plausible "explanation" after Israel stormed that relief boat from Turkey trying to break the embargo...

And I'm still waiting to see the first bit of evidence that the situation played out exactly how they said it did...

EX500rider

(10,517 posts)
174. From the video footage I saw that was exactly how the "relief" boat episode went.
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:30 PM
May 2018

"....the Israeli Navy faced resistance from about 40 of the 590 passengers, including IHH activists – described in the commission's report as a separate "hardcore group" – who were said to be armed with iron bars and knives. According to flotilla organizer Greta Berlin, the Israeli soldiers didn't start firing until an activist sized a gun from one of them."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
187. Sorry, you'll have to do better than wiki
Tue May 15, 2018, 06:35 PM
May 2018

I'm looking forward to hearing the report of some kid trying to snatch a soldier's rifle...

Squinch

(50,773 posts)
153. Your semantic quibbling - inaccurate, by the way, because it WAS a slaughter - in the face of
Tue May 15, 2018, 03:58 PM
May 2018

this tragedy, is revolting.

Oneironaut

(5,461 posts)
156. The truth, imo, is that both sides want the violence to continue.
Tue May 15, 2018, 04:06 PM
May 2018

Israel is bloodthirsty, and Hamas wants to be the perpetual victim. Both find the violence very convenient.

spicysista

(1,663 posts)
160. This is such a sad business.....
Tue May 15, 2018, 04:37 PM
May 2018

All around. My heart aches for the lives lost. I'm not sure what's your motivation for posting this, or what's behind some of the more disturbing (possibly anti-semite) posts in response. But, we must take this moment to feel the loss of life. We need to empathize with the souls that have just lost loved ones. These are the important moments that help us to connect to each other's humanity.
Yes, it's complicated. But, some things really are not. Kids have been executed. Kids are dead. I can't cry about Trayvon walking home and Tamir playing in the park and not weep for the kids of Gaza.
Oberliner, I don't know what you'd like to call what is happening in Gaza. To me, it's utterly soul crushing.

TeamPooka

(24,155 posts)
177. You debate semantics but the children are still dead. If Israel can't take the heat they shouldn't
Tue May 15, 2018, 05:34 PM
May 2018

kill children.

Response to oberliner (Original post)

GitRDun

(1,846 posts)
192. If you have your facts right, I agree with you.
Tue May 15, 2018, 07:17 PM
May 2018

From my perspective, the big picture issue is how do you deal with the settlements and giving the Palestinians a homeland.

Palestinians want a homeland free from night time raids from folks knocking down olive groves, killing their folks, and the ability to cross borders to work, etc.

Israel wants defendable borders, no tunnels into its homeland that enable terrorist attacks. Prolly more.

Everyone wants to "share" Jerusalem somehow.

The problem is, from a big picture standpoint, guys like Netanyahu and Hamas are not honest about what they really want. They do not negotiate or behave in good faith.

So they fight on.....

A pox on both their houses I say.

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
204. It's not a lie/myth
Wed May 16, 2018, 06:51 AM
May 2018

It's just stronger language to describe what happened. Describing snipers picking off kids as they have before as a "slaughter" is no lie at all. It's a valid expression used to emphasize how horrible it is to shoot children. More adults being killed than children doesn't invalidate the phrasing. People know they weren't literally slaughtered like in a slaughter house.

 

Bradical79

(4,490 posts)
206. That's what snipers do.
Wed May 16, 2018, 07:52 AM
May 2018

They pick specific targets and shoot them. In this case, it included children. It's something they have done previously too, which is an undeniable fact that Israeli military has openly talked about.

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