General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIsraeli soldiers did not "slaughter unarmed children"
The spreading of this lie needs to stop.
One can condemn the actions of the Israeli government/military without lying.
Ha'aretz (a left-leaning news outlet in Israel) does a good job of describing what took place and criticizing the fact that Israel took no steps to prevent what occurred:
Through binoculars, from various observation points a few hundred meters from the fence, it could be seen that the protests were planned and controlled by Hamas. Masses of people had gathered near the Karni crossing, opposite Kibbutz Nahal Oz, and suddenly began to move southward along the border in an orderly convoy, with men on motorcycles nearby. The convoy on foot was stopped about two kilometers from there, at which point it began to reorganize, opposite an earthen embankment nearby where Israeli sharpshooters were stationed. Within minutes, clashes broke out there, with ambulances rushing to wait from behind for the evacuation of the first killed and injured.
The beefed-up presence of the army could clearly be seen on Monday. Soldiers were almost everywhere. Snipers were stationed along the fence, and behind them, troops in the fields of the kibbutzim and moshavim. A little farther back, in parking areas, police Special Forces were waiting if needed to handle a mass breach of the fence and a move deep into Israeli territory. That didnt happen, but many Palestinians were hit in the clashes along the fence.
By 6 P.M., when the protesters left, as directed from on high by Hamas, 43 Palestinians had been killed, hundreds wounded by live fire and hundreds more by inhaling tear gas. A great deal of tear gas was used, but it dissipated quickly in the open areas, as in previous demonstrations. It seems that its impact is minor and fleeting. Sniper fire was the main weapon, and the number of casualties on the bloodiest day in Gaza since Operation Protective Edge in the summer of 2014 was accordingly high.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-a-predictable-disaster-in-gaza-israel-did-nothing-to-prevent-clashes-1.6091797
So by all means, I support and endorse criticism of the way the Israeli government and army responded with lethal force, killing several dozen Palestinian adults, and, most tragically and condemnable, a small number of kids, but to create a myth/lie about "slaughtering children" is just preposterous.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)It's that simple. While they ignore that hamas - the elected leaders of the people of gaza - pays families if they martyr their children and puts suicide vest on girls who have been raped so they can leave this world "honorably" and on the mentally deficient.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)Amishman
(5,538 posts)Exaggeration is just another form of lying
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)the US embassy to Jerusalem, and that is what the violence on both sides is about.
Now we are in a situation in which rather than moving slowly toward peace and reconciliation, we are moving toward more violence and hate.
Moving our embassy plays right into the hands of Hamas. It is a foolish move. It does not help Israel or the Palestinians, neither side. But it will really hurt Israel the most in the end.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Israel has been at war with the Palestinians for 70 years in spite of the Palestinians being offered a state many times since 1948. The US passed a law 23 years ago to move the embassy. Israel has proven they will make and keep peace when their partner sits in good faith as proven by both Egypt and Jordan - when have the Palestinians ever proved they wanted anything other than Israel driven into the sea?
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)It's a provocation -- a match in a tinderbox.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)and hate.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The move was considered provocative because it caused violence and you blame republicans and right wing Israelis but can't seem to muster up any blame for hamas or the other Palestinians who have never done anything but talk about driving Israel into the sea. And that seems fair to so many here at DU.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)integral part of Israel to be governed by Israel under the mandates that created Israel.
Do you know more about the history on this?
Jerusalem is a sacred site not only for Jewish people but for Christians and Muslims as well. Hence, it was not designated as an official part of Israel.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The history extremely well. It's only under the Israeli government that people of all faiths can worship there. Acttually, that's not true as Jews are still not allowed to pray on the Temple Mount and still can get arrested for that. You were saying....... This embassy is not in East Jerusalem so not in any part of Jerusalem that will not be in Israeli hands under any agreement.
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)"This embassy is not in East Jerusalem so not in any part of Jerusalem that will not be in Israeli hands under any agreement."
The original UN mandate did not fully include Jerusalem as a part of Israel. I remember that it was planned that Jerusalem would be governed by institutions representing the religions for which it is a holy city.
"any part of Jerusalem that will not be in Israeli hands under any agreement."
Does that phrase refer to a future agreement placing that part of Jerusalem under Israeli government?
What agreement does that refer to?
Is that part of Jerusalem already, according to an existing agreement, under Israeli government.
I need to add that, while I am not Jewish, there are Jewish members of my extended family including some, now deceased, who were victims and survivors of the Holocaust. I am pro-Israel, but not pro-US-embassy-in-Jerusalem.
Or is it part of a dreamed-of agreement, a wished-for agreement that does not yet exist?
Seems to me there is no need to move the American embassy to a city that is not NOW and under existing agreements, a part of Israel other than to provoke anger among Palestinians. And just what is the point in that?
But then, maybe there is an agreement, and I just don't know about it. What is the truth here? And how many lives is moving the American embassy to Jerusalem really worth? Because that is the score that will be kept by many around the world.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The embassy is already in a part of Israel that will remain in Israeli hands. The ONLY part that Palestinians will see is perhaps (if they're ever smart enough to sign an agreement) is East Jerusalem which this new embassy is not in.
The US waited 23 years for an agreement to be made (the law passed to move the embassy to Jerusalem-by a large bipartisan vote was signed in 1995) and this president didn't want to wait any more. I detest donnie but have at least a 100 other things that I'm far more outraged about than this.
tazkcmo
(7,286 posts)There is no surprise that the move of the embassy has caused widespread protests by Palestinians who had no say in this move. So no, there is no mention of Hamas. In this particular circumstance, even though Hamas does not have clean hands, what can you point to that justifies the firing of live ammunition into a crowd unarmed protesters?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)To storm a border. Fires set, explosions planted. There is no country in the world that would stand by. And what kind of parent brings their kids along for that? Looks like hamas propaganda arm is alive and well.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,110 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)if it EVER would have been seen as anything but provocative.
grossproffit
(5,591 posts)1995 Jerusalem Embassy Act.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,146 posts)Since you have recommended this thread, and judging from your reply, you also think "slaughtering unarmed children" is "a lie", but "killing kids" seems to be accurate - and the OP said is was.
So, what's the difference? Why is one "a lie"? I'd ask the thread starter, but they seem to have fucked off, despite the number of replies to them talking about this.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That's not what happened.
Some kids were killed - which is why you can say that accurately.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,146 posts)Will you retract your inflammatory accusation of "lie" now you've shown yourself wrong? It seems aimed at a DU. Why would you be so divisive?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)What sort of people do we have working in our slaughterhouses?
IMHO, "slaughter" is pretty much indifferent to either cruelty or violence, or perhaps Oberliner is a vegetarian.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I'm pretty sure we have establishments called "slaughterhouses" where animals are regularly "slaughtered" in a way that comports with all relevant regulations on the humane treatment of animals.
I would not think my butcher is engaged in either cruelty nor violence.
So the children were killed in a non-violent way?
procon
(15,805 posts)ordered their military to kill children and civilians. The twisted semantics being pushed by Israel would have the world believe that this massacre is somehow justified because the opposing political faction may (or may not) have paid Palestinian civilians to protest. That's a fairly standard tactic, even in the US, and does not excuse the murders.
With all the possible options and equipment available to Israel's military, why is lethal force always the primary method of crowd control?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)to explain what the fuck children were even doing there. Normal parents do anything they can to protect their children and wouldn't ever dream in placing them in harms way. I wonder how much has to do with terrorist hamas promising to throw piles of money at any family that coughs up a martyr?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/04/28/palestinians-are-rewarding-terrorists-the-u-s-should-stop-enabling-them/?utm_term=.dd7306ba1940
40,000 people were storming the Israeli border yesterday - what would any country in the entire world do in response to that?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,146 posts)and made stateless? Parked in the middle of the Mediterranean, perhaps? Or are you saying you'll campaign for the USA to offer citizenship to all Palestinian children?
Most countries would not use live fire to deter a demonstration. But Israel is OK with shooting demonstrators. That's 'normal' for Israeli government supporters too.
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)....are you under the impression everyone shot just strolled out their front door?
The pictures i have seen show no houses close to the border riots.
So yes, why the fuck would you bring your children to a Hamas inspired riot in progress?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,146 posts)Yes, of course the fuck I would.
Would I shoot unarmed children, or adults, 150 feet away from a border fence? Of course the fuck I would not.
Let's be clear: the killers were the Israeli troops, apparently under orders from the Israeli government. We know who, morally, we should be on the side of - the victims, not the perpetrators.
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)...border breech of the well guarded Israeli border wall?
Bad idea if you care about their safety....less so if you only care about making Israel look bad I suppose.
I wouldn't take kids to any place tear gas is going to be used, much less live fire.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,146 posts)to listen to their plight. I'm sure plenty of white Southerners dismissed MLK's marches as riots too - after all, people got hurt. The thing to remember in both cases is which side initiated the violence, and suffered the overwhelming casualties.
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I am so sickened by this. I really don't have any words for it right now.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Which is probably why it has its own forum and usually posts on I/P aren't allowed in other forums.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I detest bibi and hate the current Israeli government. That doesn't mean I'm going to sit here and let lie after lie be told about Israel and let anyone place the entire blame on them. I'll fight that until my last breath.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Agree with you on all points.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Even so doing all that does not justify killing other teens. It boils down to collective punishment. We are always supposed to agree with Israeli acts because Hamas is bad and they elected them so they all deserve death anyway.
We elected the dotard and by that standard we deserve what we get.
uppityperson
(115,674 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)And makes the allegation true.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)While Oberliner's post does not address the truth or falsity of the "unarmed" part, Oberliner makes it clear that instead of "slaughter unarmed children", "most tragically and condemnable, a small number of kids" were killed by being shot by sharpshooters.
Huge difference.
They were not "slaughtered". The were most tragically and condemably shot by snipers. And just a small number.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I wonder exactly how many babies have to be shot by snipers before people in faraway lands deem it appropriate to call it a slaughter.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)My copy of the Handbook of Online Rhetorical Bullshitting is out of date. Perhaps Oberliner has one with the most recent supplements.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,096 posts)that
made
me
laugh
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)uppityperson
(115,674 posts)Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)Demsrule86
(68,347 posts)say this.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The Gaza Ministry of Health lists four people killed who were under the age of 18, two of them were 16, one was 15, and one was 14.
They also list one infant who they say was killed due to tear gas inhalation, but that has been disputed by other sources.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I do not know the age of majority in Israel, so whether the four in question are not adults in Israel is an open question.
But since your OP talks about "lying", and doesn't mention "babies", then have you moved the goalposts here?
So, to be clear on the proper form of condemnation which you believe is warranted, your OP seemed to object to use of the word "children"?
hatrack
(59,436 posts).
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Maybe its a black thing ...
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)Mind blowing.
Squinch
(50,773 posts)Tipperary
(6,930 posts)But you know that. Smh.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Seriously, that's your comparison?
still_one
(91,937 posts)injured or killed increases dramatically
It doesnt take rocket science to predict something like this would happen
The people who led us into invading Iraq are guiding our ME policy now. After all that worked out so well
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)one child killed by sniper shot is slaughter. Especially when quite a few unarmed adults are also killed.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The Gaza Ministry of Health lists 4 teenagers younger than 18 killed and 1 infant who they claim died from tear gas, but that has been disputed.
tavernier
(12,322 posts)I still play This little piggy with my 14 year old grandson (when I can pin him down on the couch) because it was his favorite tickle game for years, and now it makes us both laugh at the silliness.
I would die with grief if someone mowed down his young life with a round of bullets.
Ligyron
(7,592 posts)I'd keep my kids and myself far, far away. Everybody knew what was liable to happen.
Mosby
(16,158 posts)Surely a lawyer knows that.
Or not.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)But there appears to be quite a range of opinions as to what slaughter might mean, rendering it difficult to understand why the OP considers these three words in sequence to be a lie.
liberalhistorian
(20,809 posts)"group", I guess that just doesn't count, right? Or so I've been hearing too many people say today. Considering that my tax dollars helped provide the weaponry and equipment that murdered protestors rightfully angry about this ridiculous and provocative move, it's infuriating and sickening.
Whatever waning support I once had for Israel is now gone, if it wasn't already when they re-elected Netanyahu, a member of the party that directly enshrines ethnic cleansing of "animal" Palestinians in their party platform.
lame54
(35,130 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I just think Hamas should be equally blamed.
There are very few good players in any of this. Life is simply not worth living for many Palestinians and they are lied to and treated horribly by their own government and factions.
The people being killed are victims. They arent some military group trying to regain land. They are pawns for the powerful. We shouldnt minimize how they are being victimized.
They all have blood on their hands. The US has blood on its hands.
cornball 24
(1,471 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)NoMoreRepugs
(9,257 posts)I'm not endorsing the "myth/lie" - just posing the question that if it isn't slaughter what is it?
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)It certainly is in my book
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The figures from the Gaza Ministry of Health show that of the 58 killed, 4 were teenagers under the age of 18, and 1 was an infant whom they claim died of asphyxiation from tear gas (though this has been disputed).
NoMoreRepugs
(9,257 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)Moving the embassy to Jerusalem only inflamed the situation. That's why Trump's predecessors said they would move the embassy but never did.
The problem is there are Israelis and Palestinians who deny the other's nationalist aspirations and claim to the land. Here is a great essay on the tragedy:
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/05/israel-palestine-embassy-legitimacy/560291/
Prior to the advent of Trump I used to believe there were no disputes that were intractable and reasonable folks could find common ground and give a little to get a little and solve their differences peacefully. I no longer believe that. If I can't find common ground between myself and Trump's rabid supporters how can Israelis and Palestinians find common ground ?
Sophia4
(3,515 posts)Sophia4
(3,515 posts)and violence. It is wrong to move the embassy at this time.
And I fully support the existence of Israel. That is not the issue here.
The General Assembly voted overwhelmingly during a rare emergency meeting today to ask nations not to establish diplomatic missions in the historic city of Jerusalem, as delegates warned that the recent decision by the United States to do so risked igniting a religious war across the already turbulent Middle East and even beyond.
By a recorded vote of 128 in favour to 9 against (Guatemala, Honduras, Israel, Marshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Togo, United States), with 35 abstentions, the Assembly adopted the resolution Status of Jerusalem, by which it declared null and void any actions intended to alter Jerusalems character, status or demographic composition. Calling on all States to refrain from establishing embassies in the Holy City, it also demanded that they comply with all relevant Security Council resolutions and work to reverse the negative trends imperilling a two‑State resolution of the Israeli‑Palestinian conflict.
We meet today not because of any animosity to the United States of America, insisted Riad Al‑Malki, Minister for Foreign Affairs of the State of Palestine. Instead, the emergency session had been called to make the voice of the vast majority of the international community and that of people around the world heard on the question of Jerusalem/Al‑Quds Al‑Sharif. He described the 6 December decision by the United States to recognize the city as Israels capital, and to move its embassy there, as an aggressive and dangerous move, cautioning that it could inflame tensions and lead to a religious war that has no boundaries.
He went on to state that the decision would have no impact on the Holy Citys status, but it nevertheless compromised the role of the United States in the peace process. Moreover, it did nothing but serve the forces of extremism around the world, he said, pointing out that even the closest allies of the United States could not turn a blind eye to its actions. The Assembly was meeting in the wake of the Security Councils failure to adopt a similar draft resolution, even as 14 of its 15 members had voted in its favour. The veto will not stop us, he declared in that regard, underlining that Al‑Quds will not fall to any siege, monopolization or domination
. . . .
https://www.un.org/press/en/2017/ga11995.doc.htm
I am very aware of the need for the State of Israel as a sanctuary for Jewish people who were discriminated against and killed over many centuries in their diaspora. I have visited a WWII concentration camp, and although I am not personally Jewish, I am aware of the many, many homeless survivors including orphan children after WWII and the many, many Jewish people who left Europe after WWII to settle in countries around the world, not just Israel.
But, it is inflammatory and self-righteous for the US to decide to move our embassy to Jerusalem which is a city of spiritual and historical importance not just to the Jewish people but to the Muslims also. Moving our embassy is just intended to cause conflict. It's simply another stupidly cruel Trump move. And Trump owes the world an explanation.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I could have written this myself:
I am very aware of the need for the State of Israel as a sanctuary for Jewish people who were discriminated against and killed over many centuries in their diaspora. I have visited a WWII concentration camp, and although I am not personally Jewish, I am aware of the many, many homeless survivors including orphan children after WWII and the many, many Jewish people who left Europe after WWII to settle in countries around the world, not just Israel.
But, it is inflammatory and self-righteous for the US to decide to move our embassy to Jerusalem which is a city of spiritual and historical importance not just to the Jewish people but to the Muslims also. Moving our embassy is just intended to cause conflict. It's simply another stupidly cruel Trump move. And Trump owes the world an explanation.
I, too, have been deeply immersed in this issue since infancy. Although Im not Jewish myself, I have several Jewish relatives, quasi-godparents who were Holocaust survivors, and grew up in a community of Holocaust survivors (mostly from Auschwitz, as evidenced by their tattoos, which fascinated me as a child but I knew not to ask about and led me to visit concentration camps to get answers to questions I dared not ask). I studied the Holocaust and the creation of Israel in-depth in college and was involved in the Middle East Peace Talks in the 1990s. So, while I would never claim to be an expert on this topic, I am knowledgeable and sympathetic and, I hope, always open-minded. And I agree that moving the embassy was craven, ill-advised and intended to inflame and insult. It is a tragedy and a shame.
maxsolomon
(32,975 posts)in his NPR fluff piece/interview, but I don't see corroboration fro inside Gaza in this report. Amy Goodman had a journalist on yesterday who said the protests were organized outside of Hamas. Hamas has mobile phones, does Haaretz call them to ask?
I don't know one way or the other. I just know there's got to be a better way.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,704 posts)That's the gravamen . I understand Israel was justiably concerned about people breaching the fence. Could they have prevented people from breaching the fence without lethal force ?
Eliot Rosewater
(31,096 posts)brown people die.
Not more complicated than that.
And I dont buy the bullshit of people who go out of their way to defend what happened when they dont also do what you did, point out the point that both groups deserve to exist. So thank you for pointing that out, certain others will never do that.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Most of the Palestinians I've met have been indistinguishable from your average white person. So let's cut to the chase and call these people poor, marginalized Muslims who can be pushed around for the sake of showing off to the xtian fundies who truly believe this is another Crusade.
angrychair
(8,592 posts)Killing a child or any other human being that may be throwing rocks, while looking through the scope of a high powered weapon from a secured position 50 or more meters away from said rock throwers, is a slaughter.
Gaza is a strip of land a bit larger than DC, in which roughly 2 million people live. The vast majority cannot travel or work outside this small area. They are trapped in a prison. The world watches and mumbles and spares not a fuck to give.
Then we wonder from our comfortable homes why these people have no hope and hate everyone around them and armchair quarterback the killings of dozens and injuring of hundreds while sipping coffee in an air conditioned restaurant.
Classy.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Palestinians use to freely work in Israel. Then the bombings in Israel started.
angrychair
(8,592 posts)Makes it right to hold 2 million people in a virtual prison?
I know, I know, they should just be happy they are allowed to live.
I find it perplexing that a people that lived through what they did and experienced the dehumanization, imprisonment, torture and death on the scale they did, would find a better way forward.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Huh?
angrychair
(8,592 posts)And their experience during WWII and actually long before that. There are many points throughout history where the Jewish people have been unfairly targeted based on there faith alone.
Sorry, I can see where the subject of that paragraph may be confusing.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Is never just
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Harumph!
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)madaboutharry
(40,148 posts)The truth is bad enough. There is no need to embellish it with inflammatory language.
Moving the embassy to Jerusalem was insanity. The response of the Israeli military to the unrest in Gaza is open to harsh criticism.
Peace seems further away than it ever was.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)A lie is a knowing intentional falsehood.
Please specify the lie in question.
You state that an unspecified number of children where "condemnably" shot by sharpshooters. I take "sharpshooter" to mean someone who knows what they are pointing their gun at.
Please state the acceptable form of such condemnation.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Israel did not slaughter unarmed children. That is a lie.
The number of people under 18 killed (according the Gaza Ministry of Information) is 5, 2 of whom were 16, one 15 and one 14. They also list an infant who they claim died of tear gas inhalation, but that has been disputed.
The acceptable form of condemnation is to say that the Israeli army should have used non-lethal force against the tens of thousands of people who attempted to breach its border.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)You do not dispute they were "unarmed".
You do not dispute they were "children".
I gather the problem of the "lie" is in the definition of "slaughter"?
The quote is "slaughter unarmed children". Please specify the knowingly false statement embodied in that phrase.
Among the 1000 wounded, I gather there were no children? Or is wounding them also okay and not condemnable? Should any of the wounded end up dying from those wounds, the we will revisit whatever definition you propose for "slaughter".
Vinca
(50,168 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)A Gazan doctor told the Associated Press that the baby, Layla Ghandour, had a preexisting medical condition and that he did not believe her death was caused by tear gas. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not allowed to disclose medical information to the media.
Laylas family claimed Tuesday that the baby had ended up in the area of the protest as a result of a mixup, the AP reported added. The Gaza Health Ministry initially counted her among several dozen Palestinians killed Monday.
A Gaza human rights group, Al Mezan, said it was looking into the circumstances of the infants death.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/gazan-doctor-israel-cast-doubts-over-claim-infant-died-from-tear-gas/
How would you feel if it turns out the Palestinian side lied about this for PR purposes?
Vinca
(50,168 posts)Trump essentially gave them the green light and they're taking it. No peace talks for a long, long time . . . if ever.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)EX500rider
(10,517 posts)Vinca
(50,168 posts)EX500rider
(10,517 posts)Just a mile from the riots would have been fine.
Vinca
(50,168 posts)EX500rider
(10,517 posts)Over 10,000 protesters with 58 killed on Monday and 100 over the 6 weeks gives that very a low probability of having happened.
Vinca
(50,168 posts)I have no idea who is or is not dead, wounded or otherwise indisposed and neither do you.
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)Sure I do, their names are right here in this post:
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210617092
lostnfound
(16,138 posts)I cant imagine being trapped in such a small place.
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)Liberalhammer
(576 posts)For any of their apartheid actions, killing, or fascism.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Still In Wisconsin
(4,450 posts)Liberalhammer
(576 posts)Have turned a blind in the past at Israel's agression, way before this last mass murder.
I don't buy the excuse it's because Israel is a democracy , it's because of guilt over the Holocaust where A blind eye was turned to the plight of European Jews by the US and other countries before and during the genocide.
I see that same dynamic now with Palestinians, the world turning a blind eye and Israel being the aggressor. No, it won't lead to mass genocide, but ethnic cleansing.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)imbecilic use of the word apartheid used for Israel. There were ZERO blacks part of the south african government under apartheid. Currently 16 non-Jewish members of the Israeli parliament (including the first Arab woman).
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)The 20% of Israeli citizens who are Arab are full Israeli citizens. While most Arabs are not subject to the draft (the Bedouins and the Druze volunteered to be subject to the draft), they increasingly serve in the IDF and are proud Israelis.
Why? Because Arabs in Israel are the most prosperous, wealthy, educated, and happy Arabs in all of the middle east. They are not subject to religious tyranny. In fact, the RICHEST AND MOST EDUCATED demographic in Israel is --- Christian Arabs. Note, many of these Arabs fled the PA because, as Christians, they were subject to massive discrimination, crimes, and general hate by the Iranian-controlled Hamas.
As I've often said, making a subgroup the wealthiest group in your country is a pretty piss-poor way of doing apartheid.
The Arabs in the PA are a self-selected group of religious nuts who refused to live among Jews as equals. They wanted Jews to die. Well, they failed, and yet keep trying.
As for the attacks, there are funded by Hamas (and thus Iran), roughly half of the dead are members of the Hamas security apparatus, and they are charging the border with Molotov cocktails, grenades, explosives, and guns. Interviews with them reveal (and I quote) they say "I want to get over the fence and kill Jews."
The fact we give Hamas even the benefit of the doubt at this point is antisemitism.
I am the last Democratic party member in my Orthodox shul. They look at me like I am an idiot.
The party of Harry Truman (who saved Israel) should not tolerate such idiots among us.
Liberalhammer
(576 posts)Seriously.
It's either agree with Israel's actions 100% or be insulted.
Response to Liberalhammer (Reply #126)
Post removed
Liberalhammer
(576 posts)Please inform me of what antisemitism I spread?
Liberalhammer
(576 posts)It's Isreal slaughtering people and the USA supporting the slaughter, and the world ignoring it, and you justifying it.
Is that antisemetic?
marble falls
(56,353 posts)Fozzledick
(3,859 posts)Its not surprising to see anti-Semites using the big lie technique, but its easy to see where they're coming from when they use one that's so recognizable.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)That's one of the more blatantly idiotic anti-semitic posts I've seen on the internet.
Girard442
(6,058 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)R B Garr
(16,919 posts)You seem thankful in this thread (post 54 as well).
liberalhistorian
(20,809 posts)the only casualties that count, to you, and to too many others.
doxyluv13
(247 posts)nt
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What the hell?
doxyluv13
(247 posts)I can't find that they have and unless you can provide some instances (in which case I'll apologize) the comment means exactly what it says.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Moral authority of the Jews? Why is it that threads like this bring out the most disgusting posters this site has ever had to deal with (ban)?
doxyluv13
(247 posts)Have you read it?
denbot
(9,894 posts)But hey, defend the slaughtering of civilians by soldiers anyway that helps you live your values.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Last edited Tue May 15, 2018, 05:00 PM - Edit history (1)
They indicate the ages of those who were killed.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)If you say yes to either, you are a ghoul.
PubliusEnigma
(1,583 posts)Exotica
(1,461 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Demsrule86
(68,347 posts)have ever seen.
ret5hd
(20,433 posts)Demsrule86
(68,347 posts)to the level of 'slaughter'. You couldn't pay me to say such things.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)who is glad no Israeli's died? Is the inverse of that that you'll throw a parade for a poster who would be thrilled if they had?
Demsrule86
(68,347 posts)a 'killing'...And who wrote a post defending what israel has done to Palestinians...it makes me sick.
The Polack MSgt
(13,159 posts)And be happy with whatever their captors choose to do with 'em.
It's the Palestinians own fault for thinking that the IDF would balk at killing children - They haven't declined to fire on kids in decades.
MineralMan
(146,189 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,186 posts)Mealy-mouthed parsing from the comfort of a computer can't gloss over the horror and loss, and the lasting resentment that will only fuel further atrocities (and I can find no other sensible word for this).
It reminds me of "An Interactive Guide to Ambiguous Grammar" - https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/an-interactive-guide-to-ambiguous-grammar
As a thought experiment, lets examine in extremely close detail a set of iterative changes that can be made to a single simple grammatical structure, turning it from a statement taken at face value into one loaded with unrealized implication. This makes for rich writing which rewards or even demands close scrutiny.
The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
[A longish read, IMHO well worth following to the end]
We have finally fully arrived at the ultimate in passive voice: the past exonerative tense, so named because culpability is impossible when actions no longer exist. For the most extensive erasure of direct communicative value, the original object can now even be removed entirely.
Speed was involved in a jumping‑related incident with a lazy dog while a fox was brown.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Babies and children have been slaughtered with knives during a military campaign on Rohingya Muslims in Burma, according to a series of accounts in a disturbing UN report.
An eight-month-old, a five-year-old and a six-year-old were all reportedly stabbed to death in their own homes during so-called area clearance operations by Burmese security services, which are reported to have killed hundreds of people since 9 October, in a Rohingya-dominated area in northwest Rakhine State.
The chilling accounts, described by the UN as revolting, are outlined in a flash report from the United Nations Human Rights office. The report, which has been released early because of its alarming nature, is based on interviews with more than 200 Rohingya refugees who have recently entered Bangladesh after fleeing from violence they faced in Rakhine.
One mother recounted in the report how her five-year-old daughter was trying to protect her from rape when a man took out a long knife and killed her by slitting her throat, while in another case an eight-month-old baby was reportedly killed while his mother was gang-raped by five security officers.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/burma-rohingya-muslim-babies-children-slaughtered-knives-massacre-genocide-un-warns-a7561711.html
It's not just about the numbers, it's the use of the term and what it connotes (such as the above).
Denzil_DC
(7,186 posts)would you be quibbling pointlessly about the terminology employed to describe it and looking to allocate blame on both sides, or condemning it outright for what it is?
What's preferable - death dealt at a distance by a sanitized, well-aimed bullet from a sheltering, heavily armored soldier from one of the most sophisticated military forces in the world, or the revolting honesty of a slit throat at close quarters?
Both end up with kids dead.
This is the horrible absurdity arguments like yours lead to.
I have no problem condemning both without worrying about the words used. If you were at all consistent, nor would you.
You're doing the Israeli government's side - and I emphasize that, as I'm insistent on acknowledging solidarity with the significant number of Israelis who are appalled their government's and armed forces' conduct - no favors with OPs like this.
In fact, OPs like this are just inflammatory.
MFM008
(19,774 posts)Rock throwing protesters gunned down by elite troops the world would be roiling.
Theres a problem on this planet and 2 main ones are sitting as the most corrupt administrations in their nations histories both desperate for a distraction and support from their right wing fanatics.
No not Iran but alleged bastions of democracy....
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Posts about the ongoing conflicts across Africa, for instance, barely get noticed here.
But not by an alleged bastion of democracy
With American made weapons.
As we all know Israel has the Palestinians
Locked into a confined area.
Occupied, sealed off.
Trapped.
Massacres ANYWHERE in the world
Should be ardently condemed.
a la izquierda
(11,784 posts)That gets shitloads of money and support from another alleged bastion of democracy (that would be us).
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)Ok then, that's better. Jesus.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,186 posts)Just read to yourself what you're writing.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Denzil_DC
(7,186 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)It was awful and I condemn the use of live ammo by the Israeli forces.
Denzil_DC
(7,186 posts)It was an awful, unnecessary, and in the long run counter-productive series of acts. Pretty much the world's most sophisticated military had a number of alternatives, but its leaders chose this course of action.
So why quibble over a word, or sidetrack into a definition predicated on numbers or whatever you've turned to arguing over since I last posted?
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I feel a lot better about that.
Demsrule86
(68,347 posts)never support this violent country again...I had a soft spot for years given the history...but no more. Oh and my Grandparents on my Dad's side were Jewish.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)Palestinian crisis actors?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)PubliusEnigma
(1,583 posts)41. The Empire is the institution, the codification, of derangement; it is insane and imposes its insanity on us by violence, since its nature is a violent one.
42. To fight the Empire is to be infected by its derangement. This is a paradox: whoever defeats a segment of the Empire becomes the Empire; it proliferates like a virus, imposing its form on its enemies. Thereby it becomes its enemies.
-PKD, Valis
HopeAgain
(4,407 posts)Don't think anyone needs to lie for that.
Bok_Tukalo
(4,322 posts)"Prisoners who had been found guilty of being Palestinians and sentenced to incarceration tried unsuccessfully to break out of their open air jail and were met with deadly force by Israeli prison guards."
oberliner
(58,724 posts)People seem to not be aware of that fact sometimes.
MosheFeingold
(3,051 posts)Egypt is perfectly reasonable to keep out religious nut bags from invading its country.
Jews, on the other hand, are evil people for not agreeing to die peaceably.
LexVegas
(6,005 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Are anti Semitic. Im tired of posts like this. Passive aggressive. What I this thread are you labeling as anti semitic? Too often one sees mere questions regarding Israeli acts in any way described that way
LexVegas
(6,005 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Not to be discussed or we are anti Semitic. I mean why not answer? Dont we hold Israel to the same standards regarding international acts as any other country?
Why if we sympathize with the other side for even a second are we labeled antiSemitic?
LexVegas
(6,005 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Say Israel is not allowed by us to get away with more than other countries can.
I suppose the idea is that as victims of the holocaust, we can now take whatever land we want and any opposition to that is wrong. So make the case that is not true.
IMHO the West Bank settlements are wrong in that they undermine the two state solution.
Liberalhammer
(576 posts)How about a reason for why the world has let Israel get away with its aggression?
So am I to believe in situational principles? It's bad to commit murder of unarmed civilians if it's in Syria, but okay if Israel dies the same thing?
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)....trying to get close enough to the border wall to plant explosives is hardly "aggression".
Liberalhammer
(576 posts)Will sort that out.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There are countries that have relations with the most vile, brutal dictatorships in the world and yet still do not even recognize Israel.
Fozzledick
(3,859 posts)mulsh
(2,959 posts)choice but to fire on marginally armed insurgents.
Why those peoples in Gaza keep picking on Israel is a mystery.
Rolling burning tires is much more harmful than toting the latest in US arms. Throw a rock hard and far enough and you might damage expensive protective clothing or put an eye out.
Really, why the Palestinains didn't all move to Syria, Lebanon, or Jordan 70 years ago I'll never know.
they could at least SFU after all these years.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The situation in Gaza is awful and Israel is doing nothing to help (and does not particularly wish to do so).
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Years ago, if their Muslim brothers would have given them citizenship in their countries, but they did not. Instead they want to keep the plight of the Palestinians as a club they can use to beat Israel over the head with, while simultaneously diverting attention from their own repressive regimes. No one wants the Palestinians, especially Saudi Arabia.
treestar
(82,383 posts)To an extent for them. Which means right wingers cannot use that argument.
Should the USA also have had to take them and give them citizenship? Other countries? Whatever their motives , they get to decide who is a citizen of their countries. Or none of us can.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)It means that their Muslim brothers say to them.."Come to our country and be a citizen." And no, the US should not have to, since it is not a Muslim nation.
I repeat what I said earlier....
treestar
(82,383 posts)Organize protests?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)A protest against Hamas, for instance, wouldn't fly.
They support and encourage (and pay for) protests that involve attempting to breach the border with Israel - knowing that this could be the result.
treestar
(82,383 posts)If they breached a fence, they wouldnt last long.
Hamas is a dictatorship? I have heard the Palestinians condemned as a group for electing them.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Or I don't believe them, 50 dead and 200 plus wounlded and LIVE fire- isn't right.
"soldiers shot armed squads who tried to place explosive devices at the fence"
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)And having said that, I'll see myself out.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Any children dying is awful and tragic and the Israeli side should not have used live ammo as I've written several times on this and other threads.
spanone
(135,627 posts)call eight children dead what you like....i call it a fucking SLAUGHTER.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/15/middleeast/gaza-protests-israel-intl/index.html
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)Who puts a baby at that risk?
Johnny2X2X
(18,731 posts)There is something called an appropriate level of response, this wasn't it. Slaughter is too harsh? How about, relieved of their life? Bibi is a thug and his military is committing war crimes.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I remember a clean, slick, highly detailed and perfectly plausible "explanation" after Israel stormed that relief boat from Turkey trying to break the embargo...
And I'm still waiting to see the first bit of evidence that the situation played out exactly how they said it did...
EX500rider
(10,517 posts)"....the Israeli Navy faced resistance from about 40 of the 590 passengers, including IHH activists described in the commission's report as a separate "hardcore group" who were said to be armed with iron bars and knives. According to flotilla organizer Greta Berlin, the Israeli soldiers didn't start firing until an activist sized a gun from one of them."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I'm looking forward to hearing the report of some kid trying to snatch a soldier's rifle...
Squinch
(50,773 posts)this tragedy, is revolting.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Oneironaut
(5,461 posts)Israel is bloodthirsty, and Hamas wants to be the perpetual victim. Both find the violence very convenient.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you really this this? If so, why?
spicysista
(1,663 posts)All around. My heart aches for the lives lost. I'm not sure what's your motivation for posting this, or what's behind some of the more disturbing (possibly anti-semite) posts in response. But, we must take this moment to feel the loss of life. We need to empathize with the souls that have just lost loved ones. These are the important moments that help us to connect to each other's humanity.
Yes, it's complicated. But, some things really are not. Kids have been executed. Kids are dead. I can't cry about Trayvon walking home and Tamir playing in the park and not weep for the kids of Gaza.
Oberliner, I don't know what you'd like to call what is happening in Gaza. To me, it's utterly soul crushing.
orangecrush
(19,236 posts)TeamPooka
(24,155 posts)kill children.
spanone
(135,627 posts)JesterCS
(1,827 posts)Unless you were there you haven't a clue
Response to oberliner (Original post)
Post removed
Mosby
(16,158 posts)GitRDun
(1,846 posts)From my perspective, the big picture issue is how do you deal with the settlements and giving the Palestinians a homeland.
Palestinians want a homeland free from night time raids from folks knocking down olive groves, killing their folks, and the ability to cross borders to work, etc.
Israel wants defendable borders, no tunnels into its homeland that enable terrorist attacks. Prolly more.
Everyone wants to "share" Jerusalem somehow.
The problem is, from a big picture standpoint, guys like Netanyahu and Hamas are not honest about what they really want. They do not negotiate or behave in good faith.
So they fight on.....
A pox on both their houses I say.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)It's just stronger language to describe what happened. Describing snipers picking off kids as they have before as a "slaughter" is no lie at all. It's a valid expression used to emphasize how horrible it is to shoot children. More adults being killed than children doesn't invalidate the phrasing. People know they weren't literally slaughtered like in a slaughter house.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There is no evidence of "snipers picking off kids".
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)They pick specific targets and shoot them. In this case, it included children. It's something they have done previously too, which is an undeniable fact that Israeli military has openly talked about.