Please dont fall for the "He gets how much of a pension?" "That is TOO much!" grumble grumble

[Eliot Rosewater]

The only thing wrong with a police officer getting an $8000 a month pension, even if he did fuck up big time one day which may have contributed to many deaths, is that we dont ALL get a pension like that.

This is simple, either you are OK with pushing DOWN on people i.e. saying his pension is too much or you are good with pushing UP as to people and pensions making it so we ALL get pensions like that.

The choice is simple if you are a liberal or a Democrat, let alone progressive.

p.s. want to see TEXTBOOK divide and conquer? here it is...

[Turbineguy]

1. How much would his widow have gotten?

From NARPO:

"A pension for a widow, widower or surviving civil partner, normally of half of the officer’s pension entitlement, ceases on remarriage, the formation of a new civil partnership or cohabitation."

http://www.narpo.org/survivor-pensions-information/

[Hortensis]

7. I have a problem with the conditions. Officers earn

those pensions. It may be right to put limitations on them, but with limitations on the limitations.

I know two women, first and second wives, who both were denied their retired husband's large pension because the first wife of 30 years had just become divorced (part of her settlement was to be paid out of their pension) and the second, whom he married immediately after the divorce, had been married only two months when he died.

His employer didn't have to continue the pension to either. This heist was in the documents, all nice and tidy.

[unblock]

2. agreed, beware of the mob mentality and keep things in perspective.

so easy to jump on the condemnation bandwagon, and then to turn that into an excuse for any convenient punishment that comes along.


there are many things to contemplate here.

one is that "a good guy with a gun" can't always help. in fact, it may simply encourage the bad guy to wear body armor and upgrade his arsenal.

it's easy to root for the hollywood story where the good guy with one gun and just a few bullets lands the perfect shot and takes down the bad guy who has enough weaponry to take down a small village. but in real life it's hard to really imagine it working out so well. we can be disappointed that the guy didn't even try, but honestly, i can't blame him.

well, i can blame him for going along with the sham illusion that one guy with one gun is appropriate and adequate defense against someone with a far better arsenal. but once in that situation, honestly, i can't blame him for not announcing, hey, over here, i'm the only one who's any remote threat to you, aim here.

in any event, yeah, we know nothing about his lengthy career and a pension based on an entire career rarely if ever should be taken away based on one bad day.

[suffragette]

29. This made me think of the real Hollywood bank robbery which took damn near the whole LAPD

Police and SWAT force to stop. Yes, very different than the classic Hollywood story and demonstrated the real dilemma of what happens when confronted with heavy weaponry and body armor.

Agree about pension. So tired of ordinary people being pitted against one another in terms of condemning the amount of pension they should receive. Similar to arguments about why should people be able to have reasonable cost healthcare or food or financial aid. In the meantime, so many CEO’s receive actually exorbitant golden parachutes, even if they have completely wrecked the companies and employees’ livelihoods (and lives) as they scamper way.

[unblock]

31. The difference with executive pensions

Ordinary pensions are earned in a straightforward manner, usually there's a known formula based on years of service, etc. but there's no doubt you earned it.

Executive pensions and severance, on the other hand, are often negotiated at the time the executive is hired. There may be a component based on years of service and/or performance, but often there's at least a minimum that's effectively simply a form of signing bonus.

So it's millions of dollars based on their initial hope of what you can accomplish, not based on what you actually do accomplish.

[suffragette]

40. Great point about how ordinary pensions are earned and exec ones are negotiated ahead of time.

So few people even have pensions anymore.

Execs seem to be getting ever increasing bonuses and severance packages though.

Their golden parachutes are more like platinum encrusted with diamonds.

[LakeArenal]

3. That's the reason we don't have unions or raises or overtime....

That " I got mine, but you better not have yours..."

[Eliot Rosewater]

5. And here is how they do it, republicans get power or influence or both, drastically

reduce state and local taxes mostly on the rich and make it near impossible to pay the pensions, knowing all along this will infuriate the public leading to the END of unions and pensions.

Even some here today are falling for it.

[Armymedic88]

4. Preach it!

As a disabled veteran myself whom receives a pension, I have family members bitch and moan about how much I get. I regret ever telling them how much I get. Lift others up so everyone has financial security!

[Eliot Rosewater]

6. Acquaintance finally got PTSD from Vietnam, as a result of OBAMA forcing the system to pay

the damn thing, and he never once gave Obama credit for it.

Now that check is pretty darn nice, I wont say the amount it might piss some people off and just feed this beast even more; but even though he refuses to acknowledge who fought for him and who didnt (he is a righty, not really a friend but acquaintance) he gets that big check and I am glad he does!

[Armymedic88]

9. The inability of people..

To give credit where credit is due frustrates the hell out of me. Especially, when something as substantial as that is done!

[EffieBlack]

8. EXACTLY!!!

Thank you!

This applies to all of the arguments about government employee salaries and benefits. The problem is not what they're getting, the problem is that EVERYONE isn't getting it.

[Eliot Rosewater]

11. Elsewhere I am in an argument with someone in FL who just cant

understand that the problem is who isnt paying taxes and that is why they cant afford pensions.

[obamanut2012]

37. I also live very near Parkland

And that person you are talking to is ridiculous. He wants to bring down someone else's pension instead of raising his wife's. wtf

[lame54]

10. Seems like cops are well compensated for their risks...

Why are we always whining for them and act like they are doing it out of selflessness

[Eliot Rosewater]

12. Not about cops, it is about public employees.

[lame54]

13. My comment is about cops...

I just learned their pay is very generous
Way more than most blue collar workers get after 20 years

[HopeAgain]

15. Way, way more

Meanwhile all the other public employees in Broward County are waiting while Eliot's magical change in taxes happens. I would happily redistribute some income in the meanwhile.

[Eliot Rosewater]

17. Cops pay may be generous as are pensions in many cases.

So you all have two choices on this

1. support making it so EVERYBODY has these pay and benefits (that is the liberal or democratic position)

or

2. support making it so NOBODY has these generous packages (Dont have to tell you which political philosophy likes that one, do I)

[lame54]

25. I get your point but...

I'm not responding to your point
I'm making my own
The public fawns over cops for selflessly protecting us and it turns out they get fat cash for C average high school grads
Not trying to dumb down their wages - I too would like to see wages rise for everybody
I just don't want to hear any more saintly praise for cops

[Eliot Rosewater]

27. Oh I agree. When I first found out how much a cop made in Southern Cal I was in

sticker shock but I had sort of the same reaction to the wages of firemen and women.

But I realized that sticker shock was conditioned in me by billionaires like the Koch's who are using my emotions against my own survival.

If it were up to me I would fire every single cop in America, rehire them, some would get rehired some wouldn't, and require they go thru way more sensitivity and peaceful resolution training and I would simultaneously enforce the 2nd amendment as written giving states the right to limit ALL guns to regulated militias which would all but eliminate the need for cops to have guns.

[Eliot Rosewater]

16. Dont believe that

[Nevernose]

20. They've since cut the loophiles

But this was a practice going on until just a few years ago.

http://transparentnevada.com

It’s a site funded indirectly by the Koch Brothers, granted, but it’s accurate (I looked up myself, my friends, and my family).

It was a big deal in local political circles — specifically Clark County and maybe Las Vegas.

ANY system can be abused.

[Eliot Rosewater]

21. KOCH bros and you post it here?

[Nevernose]

22. That's my working theory

It’s got the salaries for every government worker in the state. I’d post a link to the newspaper articles, but those are all owned by Sheldon Adelson — and it’s the newspaper that once sued DU. Not a lot of choices here.

[Kirk Lover]

18. Does the overtime you receive count towards your pension? nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

19. I dont get any pension, no clue.

I would think it might, have to ask someone fortunate enough who gets one.

Unfortunately due to the thinking we are seeing a lot of today, most of us dont have pensions.

[Nevernose]

23. As I as saying above

It depends on the particular contract. A few firefighters in town realized it included overtime in the final year, but just for firefighters. So a few bad actors spent their last year pulling off a Byzantine scheme of trading shifts for overtime, then collecting sick pay on top of the shifts they traded. A judge and an arbitrator found it didnt violate the contract, but they abused the hell out of the system.

The vast majority of us government employees make far less. As a teacher, I don’t even get overtime, so it doesn’t apply.

[JNelson6563]

26. That would depend on the contract.

Such things are terms in a contract. I'm in a union with an employer that has a pension plan. Every hour I work (up to 40 a week) so much is contributed to my pension.

I would imagine that is pretty standard practice.

[Yupster]

30. Normally a pension is based on some kind of formula

A typical one might be your years experience times 2.3 equals the average of your three highest paid year.

For example,

30 years times 2.3 equals 69 % of your average pay. Average pay is 100,000 so pension is 69,000.

There are ways to abuse the system.

Cops are notorious for allotting overtime to retiring officers to greatly increase those last three years pay. Overtime does count toward your pay.

In Texas, teachers used to have a loophole that many used. It's been since closed. If you retired from a district that didn't contribute to social security, you had your social security cut dramatically. If you retired from a district that did contribute to social security, you got full social security. So teachers didn't retire. They quit. Then they went to work for one day at a district that did collect social security. Near us there was a local district that collected social security. They charged teachers $ 200 to work for them for one day and then retire so they'd get TRS and social security. The state legislature closed that loophole a few years ago.

[TheRealNorth]

36. This

If people are being allowed to abuse the system, the abuses should be called out AND corrected because it endangers the solvency of the system.

[beaglelover]

35. I manage the pension plans for a very large very well known entertainment company.

None of our plans include overtime pay, union or non union. The union plans are regular pay only and the non union plans are regular pay plus commissions for the people in sales. Our union plan formula is generous and our non union plan formula is very generous and doesn't cap years of service. One of my favorite retirements was a guy who washed dishes in the commissary for 50 years and now receives a monthly pension benefit equal to what most average executives get since number of years of service is a multiplier in our formula.

[backtoblue]

24. He should donate to MSD and the survivors...

[Beartracks]

28. A few years ago, that was all the conservative rage: "Public employees make too much!"

Instead, their concern SHOULD have been: "Hey, how come I'M not getting paid fairly, too?"

===========

[marybourg]

32. They get those generous pensions

because they stand ready, thru their entire careers, to lay down their lives for us. Oh, wait . . .

[obamanut2012]

38. He earned his pension by working the same job for 30 years

He deserves every cent.

I know someone who died that day, I have friends whose kids were shot out. I don't give a damn that he is getting the pension he earned.

[marybourg]

39. Millions of Americans work for longer than that

and don't get anything like $96,000/year , although I wish everyone did. Fire and police and military pensions have always been more generous than others based on the danger they face and their willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice for the rest of us. That justification, although valid in general, failed in this case.

[brer cat]

33. Thanks, Eliot!

This really needed to be said.

[Eliot Rosewater]

34. You are indeed welcome!

[phylny]

41. My husband has worked for a big oil company for 37 years.

He's hated his job at times, he's been on the verge of quitting at times, we've moved our family around the country six times, and he continues to work into his 60s.

Our children are amazed that he gets a pension AND 401K AND Social Security AND health insurance to supplement Medicare when he retires. They are also amazed that the company guarantees those benefits to me as well, even if he dies, even if we divorce.

Everyone should have the same financial security we will enjoy when we retire. Everyone.