General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTexas school had a shooting plan, armed officers and practice. And still 10 people died.
They thought they were a hardened target, part of whats expected today of the American public high school in an age when school shootings occur with alarming frequency. And so a death toll of 10 was a tragic sign of failure and needing to do more, but also a sign, to some, that it could have been much worse.
My first indication is that our policies and procedures worked, J.R. Rusty Norman, president of the school districts board of trustees, said Saturday, standing exhausted at his front door. Having said that, the way things are, if someone wants to get into a school to create havoc, they can do it.
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The shooting didnt seem to rattle beliefs or prompt the calls for change that followed the Parkland shooting. Norman Franzke, 69, whose granddaughter safely escaped Santa Fe High, noted that guns have been part of the culture here for generations. When he attended, students kept shotguns on racks in their pickups, ready for hunting after school.
I dont think this will change the mentality of this community, Franzke said. There may be some changes in how kids enter and leave school. But even then, he was a student, so he would still have had access.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/santa-fe-school-had-a-shooting-plan-armed-officers-and-practice-and-still-10-people-died/2018/05/19/58b1b55e-5b8d-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html
TimeSnowDemos
(476 posts)Guns can't meaningfully stop gunmen. Neither can 'security'.
Those are all just distractions.
19catsandcounting
(32 posts)The only way to stop school shootings is to disarm the population or create sweeping changes throughout our culture that make every young man feel deep belonging to a community and a sense of unity with his country. Or do both.
No one, not even the Federal Government, has the capability of making either of these changes. If we harden every school in the country to the point where such attacks would no longer be good targets, shooters will attack other soft targets where the innocent gather.
Im in a negative mood right now, would be much obliged if someone persuaded me I am wrong. What legislation could stop this?
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)That doesnt mean legislation is ineffective or not worth the bother.
For instance, raise the gun owning/purchasing/unsupervised usage age to 21. Something like 40% of school shooters bought their weapons legally and were between 18 and 21.
Along with the age restriction, hold gun owners responsible. If parents dont lock up their guns, parents should be held accountable for crimes committed with those guns. A few high profile prosecutions of upper middle class white professionals who were irresponsible with their weapons would go a long way in changing the culture. People buy guns to protect themselves and their families, but guess what? Suicide is a much bigger threat to your children than home invaders, and access to firearms mean a greater likelihood of success in suicide attempts.
Most gun owners really are responsible, but that doesnt mean shit if we dont begin holding the irresponsible owners accountable.
And thats just this one case. There are literally dozens of laws and regulations that could be passed tomorrow some dealing with guns, some with schools, some with mental health that would significantly reduce gun violence overnight, and that wouldnt infringe on anybodys eights or even American culture in any meaningful way.
19catsandcounting
(32 posts)marlakay
(11,457 posts)Arent held responsible for not keeping the guns away from their kids. I personally think if you own a gun you are responsible for anything that happens with it. If you are afraid that someone in your household may get it then lock it up at a gun place.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Are going to need to write stricter, more specific laws addressing unsecured weapons and criminal liability.
Like it or not, people have to realize that times have changed. We just dont live in a world where we can leave our grandpas shotgun in the closet and keep even .38 in the nightstand. Not if youve got people under 21 in the house. Setting aside school shootings, crime, and homicide in general, we know too much about the risks of suicide and access to firearms. If you knew for an absolute fact that someone you live has battled with depression husband, roommate, mom, whoever then I believe that you probably shouldnt have a gun in your home, and if you do keep a gun in your home, you should be required to secure it under lock and key. Most states dont even have a legal duty for owners to report stolen or lost firearms, and most states and the Feds dont even have a database to keep track of them.
Its 2018. Thats a foreseeable, avoidable risk, and I think people should start going to prison for negligent homicide, manslaughter, or even murder depending upon the circumstances. Anyone afraid of a law enforcement operated database because of government tyranny or some such obviously bullshit reason certainly lacks all right to ever say support our troops or blue lives matter ever again.
I suspect that there are an awful lot of civil liability lawsuits we just dont here about in many of these cases. Not sexy enough for the news. We should make it easier to sue the owners, we should remove all caps on penalties, and we should make it a debt impossible to discharge through bankruptcy (just like my student loans).
Responsible gun owners would have nothing to fear.
Straw Man
(6,624 posts)Whether it is strict or specific enough is open to debate.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Im arguing that people who allow unfettered access to those under 21 or those with chronic psychological disorders (like depression) should be punished severely, preferably as severely as the actual person who pulls the trigger.
Under that statute you listed, the Santa Fe school shooters dad can be charged with a Class A misdemeanor. At most its a year in jail (if hes poorly behaved), and afterwards, he can still buy more guns.
Im actually opposed to harsh sentencing for most crimes, but there are exceptions. Crimes of violence and crimes committed by those in authority are those exceptions.
USALiberal
(10,877 posts)Unless you remove all guns from society, which WILL NEVER HAPPEN, you cannot stop a lone nut from killing a few people.
Shotguns will always be legal. Pistols will always be legal.
The gun culture in this country make it worse.
The real issue is why we have so many people who want to do this.
19catsandcounting
(32 posts)I think the issue is that Capitalism amongst many other factors are highly effective at dissolving communities, family and a unifying culture. Young men are mentally and physically equipped to kill, if they are bitter, resentful and in despair, the innocent to whom they feel no connection become targets for cathartic violence. Obviously not just young men are susceptible to this.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)So what's changed in our population over the last 50 years where mass shootings at schools are now routine while they used to be unheard of.
Wikipedia has a good list of all the school shootings for 100 years.
There used to be a lot of them but they were the boyfriend shoots new boyfriend at the school dance ot principal kill himself in his office. This shooting as many people as possible is a very new phenomenon.
It's not the guns that has changed. They've always been around.
It's not the lack of protection at schools. They sued to have open doors.
So what's changed in the population where people do things they never used to do?
19catsandcounting
(32 posts)The dissolution of community, loss of unity, increased desperation/inability for regular people to attain status....How do we get that?
B2G
(9,766 posts)But there were guns.
Too many kids means too little supervision and too much potential conflict. They are microcosims of the larger society.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)and my high school had 3,000. 100 years ago. I'm not that old so can't say.
Fla_Democrat
(2,547 posts)well thought out, intelligent, reasonable conversation.....
Too bad we can't have it here.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)to make their pain known worldwide.
Those that might not have been shooters if they were in high school 30 years ago, might now be.
There is a ritual - social media messages, manifestos, then going into school and down in history.
This is why the media doesn't mention the name of the shooters as much.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/19/thresholds-of-violence
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)...and kill several I'm sure before police shot you dead.
It's not about just being secure, because the type of secure needed to prevent all shootings is unattainable. Think high security super prisons. No kids are going to school in a Super Max but anything short of that is susceptible to violence.
kacekwl
(7,016 posts)potent weapon. Good thing dad didn't have a AK type weapon at home.
No surprise. A determined shooter is going to plan for those things. Remember he knew there was an armed officer there, and probably planned on dealing with him.
LisaL
(44,973 posts)If the shooter is already in the room any armed cop would have to enter that same room immediately putting cop into disadvantage.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)a determined shooter will switch to a mall or movie theatre.