Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Botany

(70,070 posts)
Wed May 23, 2018, 08:41 AM May 2018

Clapper tells Maddow the president is illegitimate: Trump would not be president if not for Russia

Last edited Wed May 23, 2018, 11:07 AM - Edit history (2)

James Clapper tells Rachel Maddow the president is illegitimate: ‘Trump would not be president if not for’ Russia


https://www.rawstory.com/2018/05/james-clapper-tells-rachel-maddow-president-illegitimate-trump-not-president-not-russia/

“Now that he is out of government service and a private citizen, James Clapper is ready to say what he really thinks on that front and what he saw happen,” she said.

While quoting his book directly, Maddow broke down the Russian investigation into the presidential election.

Clapper says he has “no doubt” that Russia swung the elections.

snip

“He served as director of national intelligence for 6 1/2 years, including for the duration of the Russian attack on the 2016 election. He says that Donald Trump would not be president if not for that attack,” Maddow said.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=XRXWVJsDdAQ

************

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clapper

"Clapper became Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency in November 1991 under George H. W. Bush."


38 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Clapper tells Maddow the president is illegitimate: Trump would not be president if not for Russia (Original Post) Botany May 2018 OP
If Not For The FBI - Comey PaulX2 May 2018 #1
McConnell threatened Obama's people at a meeting to make it highly partisan if people shraby May 2018 #10
And why did they cave??? calimary May 2018 #14
Exactly. And gone on tv every day that it's not partisan, it's american Roland99 May 2018 #15
Please post cites for your allegations.... Honeycombe8 May 2018 #19
The FBI's lies and manipulations during the fake email scandal were a much bigger deal. (eom StevieM May 2018 #2
How can you assess that? triron May 2018 #9
The poll numbers dropped 2 points directly because of the letter. SunSeeker May 2018 #17
Also, she might have recovered other voters who she had just recently lost, mostly because StevieM May 2018 #24
Absolutely. Thanks to Comey, Putin's cyberattack for Trump succeeded. nt. SunSeeker May 2018 #25
This message was self-deleted by its author StevieM May 2018 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author SunSeeker May 2018 #30
The change in the polls after Comey intervened. StevieM May 2018 #18
The email issue was real. Clinton acknowledged it. nt Honeycombe8 May 2018 #20
Russian Trump supporters celebrated their victory. keithbvadu2 May 2018 #3
And a member of the Russian Duma bragged about it too. Botany May 2018 #4
US intel didn't miss it as much as McConnell and Ryan refused to let it be known. keithbvadu2 May 2018 #7
McConnell was a told and he blocked that information from the American people and that info was .... Botany May 2018 #8
it was Comey Kurt V. May 2018 #5
You just keep thinking that and ignore McConnell's threat to make it highly political shraby May 2018 #11
I don't understand the thinking there. Kurt V. May 2018 #12
Please cite your sources for that information. Because it's wrong. Honeycombe8 May 2018 #21
here. Kurt V. May 2018 #35
And their end game is quite clear. byronius May 2018 #6
Clapper DID NOT SAY Trump was illegitimate. Hortensis May 2018 #13
There is evidence that Russia DID hack some election systems. So it's likely that Russia did more. Honeycombe8 May 2018 #22
I don't think there is any evidence of vote hacking, just "could have happened." Fact is, Hoyt May 2018 #31
It was Maddow's interpretation. triron May 2018 #27
Why do you think more people weren't fooled than were, Hortensis May 2018 #32
Hmmm. Tell that to the many red state republicans who because of lack of Laura PourMeADrink May 2018 #29
Laura, Russia didn't dissuade those from voting Democratic. Hortensis May 2018 #33
Must be a finer point I am not picking up Laura PourMeADrink May 2018 #36
I'm guessing you're answering a different post here, Hortensis May 2018 #37
Why so politically correct? rolypolychloe May 2018 #16
First, equating investigationwith spyingis disengenuous, to say the least. BobTheSubgenius May 2018 #23
Feel so sad for Clapper. You can see it in his face. Master in Intelligence...yet Laura PourMeADrink May 2018 #28
This headline is a lie oberliner May 2018 #34
Please note that Raw Story is lying and Clapper did not say this (please delete the post) oberliner May 2018 #38
 

PaulX2

(2,032 posts)
1. If Not For The FBI - Comey
Wed May 23, 2018, 09:20 AM
May 2018

Trump is under investigation. FBI says nothing. Hillary. FBI blabbers garbage.

shraby

(21,946 posts)
10. McConnell threatened Obama's people at a meeting to make it highly partisan if people
Wed May 23, 2018, 10:30 AM
May 2018

were told about Russia's involvement.

calimary

(80,142 posts)
14. And why did they cave???
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:14 AM
May 2018

Shoulda said a big fat “FUCK YOU!” and gone out and done it ANYWAY.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
19. Please post cites for your allegations....
Wed May 23, 2018, 10:57 PM
May 2018

allegations that Comey cost the election.

I can post cites showing you that Hillary was winning in 12 out of 13 polls right before the election. Never happened before that someone who was doing so well by the polls lost. THAT'S why everyone was shocked.

Comey cost her a bit, but nothing to indicate enough to lose.

If you read up on this matter, you will know why the FBI didn't say anything about the Russia investigation (it hadn't been publicly announced; what we knew, we knew from leaks). AND it wasn't an investigation of Trump. AND it was an ongoing investigation, unlike Clinton's, which had been concluded.

SunSeeker

(51,058 posts)
17. The poll numbers dropped 2 points directly because of the letter.
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:39 AM
May 2018

They initially dropped 4 points, but Hillary inched back up 2 points, before running out of time. And that doesn't even count all the Dem voters who decided to just stay home because of the repeated FBI Hillary bashing. This drop off was of course most devastating in the swing states where it was already very close.

StevieM

(10,494 posts)
24. Also, she might have recovered other voters who she had just recently lost, mostly because
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:22 PM
May 2018

of Vladimir Putin's shenanigans.

Response to SunSeeker (Reply #25)

Response to StevieM (Reply #26)

StevieM

(10,494 posts)
18. The change in the polls after Comey intervened.
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:40 AM
May 2018

I am not downplaying the importance of Russian interference. I am simply saying that it seems clear to me that James Comey and the FBI dominated that race from start to finish.

Botany

(70,070 posts)
4. And a member of the Russian Duma bragged about it too.
Wed May 23, 2018, 09:47 AM
May 2018

Russian politician says on live TV that Russia stole U.S. presidency.


https://www.axios.com/russian-politician-says-on-live-tv-that-russia-stole-us-presidency-1513305421-105c4fa4-70e6-4fa4-98c9-eb90e35987ad.html

Russian politician Vyacheslav Nikonov, a member of the Duma, said U.S. "intelligence missed it when Russian intelligence stole the president of the United States." He made the remarks on a Russian panel show, "Sunday Evening with Vladimir Solovyov."

The episode centered on the U.S.' diminishing power on the world stage and the resulting chaos, The Hill reports. University of Virginia professor Allen Lynch told The Hill that Nikonov's statement was directed at the idea that the U.S. must be losing power if it can't uphold the integrity of its own electoral system.

Julia Davis, who monitors Russian media, first noted the comments on her Twitter account last night.

Botany

(70,070 posts)
8. McConnell was a told and he blocked that information from the American people and that info was ....
Wed May 23, 2018, 10:19 AM
May 2018

Russia acting under orders of Vlad Putin interfered in our elections with 2 goals

1) Helping Donald Trump in the election.

2) Hurting Hillary Clinton in the election.

Both Senators Burr (R) & Warner (D) of the Senate Intel Committee are on record
as saying that the agree w/those conclusions.

*************
I live for the day when Trump and company are treated as the treasonous un-American bastard
that he is and people will not even want to sit by him.

shraby

(21,946 posts)
11. You just keep thinking that and ignore McConnell's threat to make it highly political
Wed May 23, 2018, 10:32 AM
May 2018

if anything was said.

Kurt V.

(5,624 posts)
12. I don't understand the thinking there.
Wed May 23, 2018, 10:43 AM
May 2018

all things in DC are highly political. Comey knew he would catch a ton of shit from repubs if he didn't say anything about the weiner emails. he folded.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
21. Please cite your sources for that information. Because it's wrong.
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:01 PM
May 2018

See my above post for the facts. You can have your opinion, but not your own facts. The FACT is that she was practically a shoe-in right before the election (post-Comey).

The reason everyone was shocked at Trump "winning" was because she was ahead in 12 out of 13 polls.

byronius

(7,341 posts)
6. And their end game is quite clear.
Wed May 23, 2018, 09:51 AM
May 2018

They will not succeed.

And the cost to them will be enormous. We will alter their reality as they have altered ours.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
13. Clapper DID NOT SAY Trump was illegitimate.
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:13 AM
May 2018

Trump was elected by both those citizens who voted for him and those who didn't vote for Hillary Clinton. Not Russia.

And here's another:

WE are Russia's big enemy and big targets. Not Republicans. Electing Democrats was OUR job. WE lost not just the presidency but the senate, possibly the house, and many state governments because too many of US failed.

Ignorance and other personal weaknesses are what Russia exploits. And they're big experts on identifying and exploiting personal weaknesses. Knowledge and adequate standards for our own behavior are the weapons that defeat them.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
22. There is evidence that Russia DID hack some election systems. So it's likely that Russia did more.
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:03 PM
May 2018

Do you think Russia stopped at bots and fake news? No, Russia doesn't stop at anything. Easy to hack some of the those districts in purple areas and flip the results. They were only flipped in a few districts.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
31. I don't think there is any evidence of vote hacking, just "could have happened." Fact is,
Thu May 24, 2018, 12:32 AM
May 2018

Clapper said Ruskies could have swayed enough votes to cause Clinton to lose in the 3 key states by 80K votes.

Of course, sore primary losers who stayed home or voted for opposition, people who stayed home because they thought Clinton would win, Jack Pine Radical types, voters swayed by Comey or lies, etc. could have caused the loss.

triron

(21,792 posts)
27. It was Maddow's interpretation.
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:47 PM
May 2018

Your response assumes voters decisions don't depend on information
they are receiving it seems. Why do you think drug companies spend so
much money on advertising?

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
32. Why do you think more people weren't fooled than were,
Thu May 24, 2018, 02:38 AM
May 2018

though? It's not that we don't all know that we're routinely lied to, because we do.

We live in the information age, Triron. Some Democrats chose lies because they liked them, many because they provided the excuse they wanted and needed to behave badly. And that's what I mean about using our weaknesses against us.

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,766 posts)
29. Hmmm. Tell that to the many red state republicans who because of lack of
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:55 PM
May 2018

knowledge and incentive to seek the truth were bombarded with Russian fake stories about what a devil Hillary was.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
33. Laura, Russia didn't dissuade those from voting Democratic.
Thu May 24, 2018, 03:01 AM
May 2018

I live in the rural deep south and it's very...rural deep south down here. Same for Arkansas, where our daughter now raises her family. We've both been told by people that they'd never met a liberal.

Russia especially targeted registered Democrats and independents who normally vote Democrat.

Using social media, they identified and fed personal weaknesses, providing lies to feed things like ignorance, lack of conviction and resentment, and they alarmed and "disillusioned" a small but critical percentage into mostly not voting. We're not angels, and with encouragement constantly fed directly into personal furnaces, some voted third party or Trump our of spite and resentment. Likely most believed they could safely do so because for a year prior the news had been discussing how far ahead we were and how big our wins would be. But they still ultimately made themselves fatally useful idiots.

We'll get Russia eventually. But for now we have to stop this problem by fixing ourselves, and that starts with accepting blame, not making excuses for it. That's an exploitable, fatal weakness.

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,766 posts)
36. Must be a finer point I am not picking up
Thu May 24, 2018, 08:32 AM
May 2018

on. It sounds like your title says one thing and your message just the opposite.

I think we will never have a quantified answer...how many people were affected by fake ads and influenced by trolls to not vote for Hillary.(among other hacker goals) A documentarian could search for these people and interview them ..but how likely would it be that they would admit it...or even be self aware enough to recognize that it happened. Might be more interesting to poll people in detail about specific issues they had against her to see how many were never true.

By admitting Facebook ads affected your vote you would also be admitting that you don't research and seek out truth.

So we will never know the number but a rational person can conclude it did change the vote. The beauty of this kind of influence campaign...it's effect can't be proven since votes are confidential.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
37. I'm guessing you're answering a different post here,
Thu May 24, 2018, 10:33 AM
May 2018

Laura. Beyond doubt this era is being intensively studied, and I'm looking forward to reading some of the best regarded histories, written after rather than from in the middle.

Came back for something that just occurred to me: This is the information age. Data gathering and analysis aren't only done by inimical forces bent on defeating electorates. The study of humans is already becoming far, far, far more fact based than was ever even imagined possible before.

rolypolychloe

(56 posts)
16. Why so politically correct?
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:29 AM
May 2018

Trump is the Bastard of the United States and Pence is the Vice Bastard of the United States.

BobTheSubgenius

(11,502 posts)
23. First, equating investigationwith spyingis disengenuous, to say the least.
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:17 PM
May 2018

Second `Trump should be happy`that he`s breathing free air, for now, and is still wealthy, for now.

Laura PourMeADrink

(42,766 posts)
28. Feel so sad for Clapper. You can see it in his face. Master in Intelligence...yet
Wed May 23, 2018, 11:52 PM
May 2018

he is not given the respect/awe/credence he deserves. Sure there are many more like him who are watching their whole world crumble before their eyes.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
38. Please note that Raw Story is lying and Clapper did not say this (please delete the post)
Thu May 24, 2018, 10:35 AM
May 2018

At no point did he say the president is illegitimate.

100 percent Raw Story falsehood.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Clapper tells Maddow the ...