Most Democrats should be for standing for the national anthem.

[DemoHack]

This may not be a popular opinion on this website, but it needs to be said.

We all know that racial tensions are at an all-time high in the last 30 years, and we need to address this immediately as best we can. We also know that Colin Kaepernick was very brave, and likely cost himself his NFL career. We know the meaning of WHY he did it in the first place, so maybe we can shift our attention to The Why and away from the act of the protest itself. The meaning is far more important than the act that brought it to our attention.

But overall, Democrats should be for standing for the national anthem. It's the right thing to do, and Donald fucking Trump is no more patriotic than we are.

And if we want to win back Congress I sure as hell hope we're not still talking about this, frankly ridiculous, issue in the fall right before the November election, because this is just the type of Trumpian Red Meat that WILL drive our opponents to the polls.

[guillaumeb]

1. Why? eom

Added: welcome to DU

[DemoHack]

6. Thank you!

But I'm a long-time lurker.
And contrarian.

[guillaumeb]

25. You did provoke some discussion. eom

[LonePirate]

2. I strongly disagree. We should let people do as they please, be it stand, sit, kneel, sleep, etc.

[DemoHack]

78. I agree. You must not have read what I said.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

3. Horseshit... Democrats are for freedom of speech and against police brutality above fake patriotism

in support of a racist anthem.

[pangaia]

44. HORSHIIT -- HA HA ! Well, THAT was to the point...

I like it.

You surely know the meaning of horseshit in baseball.

[MFM008]

4. Im not standing

For shit.
Not while this repulsive maggot is debasing this entire country.
Im 60. White. A woman and they can piss off.
I support players that want to take a knee.

[smirkymonkey]

121. Hear, Hear!

[DemoHack]

5. What if they were taking a knee...

To protest "the wanton murder of unborn babies by abortion?" Everyone still cool with it? I hope you stay consistent.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Fine with me.

What if they were taking a knee What if they were taking a knee... To protest "the wanton murder of unborn babies by abortion?

If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.

-John Stuart Mill

[raging moderate]

75. Fine with me, too. John Stuart Mill AND the First Amendment!

Democrats must stand on principle and reason.

[Squinch]

31. They have the right to use their First Amendment rights however they want. You seem to

have been hoping we would NOT be consistent. So sorry to disappoint.

[DemoHack]

56. Not true.

Just curious.

Taking a knee for the absolute, unequivocal defense of the 2nd Amendment? Still cool?

[Squinch]

63. Give it up. You are wrong in your assumption that Democrats are hypocrites.

Maybe you should look to new sources and get some accurate information about our support for the First Amendment.

And where is your source for that bogus "77% support" number? I found nothing that says anything close to that.

Infowars, the batshit crazy lunatics say 64% support standing.

CNN says 60% support TAKING A KNEE.

So where is your source?

[lunatica]

54. It's their Constitutional right to protest

They do it all the time outside of abortion clinics. So far no one has stopped them.

[AncientGeezer]

98. That's not a place of employment for those protesting...apples to cactus.

[lunatica]

111. It the 1st amendment

no apples or whatever fruit you pick to compare.

[Iggo]

123. Oh yeah? Well what if they were taking a knee to protest freedom of speech?

What then, smart guy?

(Checkmate! High-five! Yeah! Okay, I'm going back to Discussionist now.)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. I will defend to the death you're right to stand , sit, or take a knee

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10657073

[DemoHack]

8. I didn't say it should be forbidden.

People should do what they want to.

But as a party we -by and large- should side with the 77% that support standing for the anthem.

[bluestarone]

10. WE are a party of choice!!!!!!!!!

Where did you get that figure??? 77%? i doubt it

[Squinch]

35. That whole choice thing seems to be a new concept for this one.

[Squinch]

48. PS: I wondered about the figure too. CNN says 6 in 10 support taking a knee.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10657724

[bluestarone]

73. yea figures!!

Just another divider here i guess!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. That figure is meaningless without context.

Ask this question and see how it's answered.

Should a person be deprived of his livelihood because he refuses to stand for The Anthem to protest what he or she perceives as injustice.

[Squinch]

43. See my post 41. They're not even trying any more.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10657724

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I am not for iconoclasm for the sake of iconoclasm.

As a general rule people should stand for the Anthem unless their conscience or religion informs them not to.

I suspect I can get supermajorities to agree with that stance.

[Squinch]

74. I'm not a football person, but if I were, this middle-aged white lady would absolutely be kneeling.

I thought it was a perfect protest. It was totally respectful - kneeling ferchrissakes - and it made its point.

[shraby]

28. Give me one good reason why we should support the 77%.

I never have gone along just get along. I feel everyone has their own feelings about things and it's not my place to tell them what they should do. That's their business.

I have never like national flags. Especially where the flag becomes more important than the people it is supposed to represent. Some flags represent some pretty odiferous regimes.

If the kneelers want to make a point by kneeling, they have that right just as someone with a pen and the gift of gab makes a point by writing an essay.

I could never see the object of the national anthem at a sports event anyway. It's out of place.

[Squinch]

41. Bwahahahahahaha!!!! Whatever source gave you 77%, it's more batshit crazy than INFOWARS!!!!!

I just tried to check your number. I googled "taking a knee poll." NOTHING supports your number. There was an infowars poll that said 64% support standing.

CNN says the support for taking the knee is actually 6 in 10!
https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/29/politics/national-anthem-nfl-cnn-poll/index.html

But thank you for playing!

[pangaia]

46. Why?

[EffieBlack]

66. A majority of Americans opposed interracial marriage in 1967 and thought MLK was "divisive."

The majority is sometimes - actually, often - wrong - and rights are not determined by poll.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

94. THIS!!

[heaven05]

106. ++ nt

[Demsrule86]

117. And Mississippi polls show that if it could be implemented (white voters) again they would support

it...shocking. I saw the true picture after my daughter became engaged to a fine young man of color...a great person. But some will never know because they can't look beyond his dark skin...their loss.

[wasupaloopa]

95. No we should be individuals and use our own minds to determine what we do

Remember that picture of the lemmings jumping off the cliff. I hope you don’t have to suffer too long after you hit the bottom.

Dems will be standing there and watch you jump.

[mcar]

112. Link to your statement please

77%?

[Squinch]

119. Crickets.

[bluestarone]

9. THIS is the ONLY way to be!!!!!!!!!!

100% AGREE!!!!!!!

[AncientGeezer]

100. Will you defend the right of the employers to fire employees for detrimental Co. behavior?

1st A isn't an employee-employer protection..

[DemocratSinceBirth]

102. Do I think a person should be fired for peacefully following his or her conscience ?

You want me to die to protect an NFL owner's right to fire one of his players for protesting the indignities suffered by my African American brother and sisters ? That's as nonsensical as asking me to die to protect Kim Jong-un's right to possess nuclear arms.
Did you get lost ?

1st A isn't an employee-employer protection.

Just because you have a right to do something doesn't it mean it's prudent or moral to exercise that right and firing a person for following the dictates of his or her conscience would be one instance.

[Squinch]

105. Do you think a company should be able to fire employees for refusing to pray when their

Last edited Sat May 26, 2018, 07:01 AM - Edit history (1)

customers say they REALLY want those employees to pray?

[Afromania]

11. So, in order to win the election everybody should stand for the anthem and completely ignore

that the reason behind the protest has not been addressed? The fact it has been brought to the attention of folks that don't care enough to admit there is a serious problem in the first place has changed nothing. I'm still seeing my black and brown brothers and sisters brutalized by police weekly. I see white people calling said police full well knowing that there is a pretty good chance that call is going to lead to some sort of rough treatment for those called on.


You want the protests to stop so we can win in November? You want the issue at hand to be settled with a hand wave because trump ass kissers will run to the polls? The only thing I find ridiculous is that you have come hereunder the guise of a ally of liberal ideals to peddle this garbage. If you are actually a progressive leaning person then it's ridiculous to label yourself such when you are willing to sweep the bettered bodies of black and brown people under the rug for a win.


How many black and brown bodies do you think will be crippled? maimed? killed? before November? 10? 20? 50? How many bodies do you need before it's enough for you that not standing for a song in peaceful protest won't be ridiculous....... for you...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. It's a phony ginned up issue.

[cyclonefence]

61. Oh my god

no words

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. It's a phony ginned up issue Trump is using to divide people.

If Afromania gives me permission I will post the private message he sent to agree with me.

Thank you for implying the worst about me. I will be the bigger person, take the high road, and not respond in kind, for now.

[Afromania]

113. What I had said was......

"I know it's bullshit and this is a troll, but enough people are skittering around here like roaches in the dark that think things just like this. My posts are sometimes open statements to these people." I'M paraphrasing a bit, but that's the gist of it. Not sure what all went on here but there ya go.

[Demsrule86]

118. I agree with this...just another way to divide us...it is all these losers have. We shouldn't fall

for it. I was thinking as I wrote this post...I go back and forth on this issue.... that damn it I will stand. This country is bigger than Trump and his minions and murderous racists...we can fix this. So I will stand with faith that we can and will do better.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. When you inadvertently insult someone the proper response is to apologize

When you inadvertently insult someone the proper response is to apologize but that would take modicum of character.


https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10657823

[DemocratSinceBirth]

86. Where do I go to to get my reputation back ?

A good name is better than fine perfume-

-Ecclesiastes 7:1

This is a teachable moment. When you attack someone you don't get to calibrate his or her response.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

120. Still no apology

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10658541

[DemoHack]

57. I guess you completely ignored what I wrote.

I said we should focus on the reason behind the protest.

[Blue_true]

12. As democrats, we should focus on clearly explaining why EVERYONE has a right to do what they choose

when the anthem is played. This country has never been about conforming, if that was the case, we would still be part of the crown and have slavery.

[pennylane100]

26. Just an FYI about being part of the crown.

The crown abolished slavery long before the US did and did not need a civil war to do it. Not that it makes them heroes, they were still very brutal in dealing with the people they colonized.

[kydo]

14. Um, I thought that Dems didn't tell others what they should or should not do

That's what repugs do.

[Squinch]

24. Lots of brand spanking new posters telling us how we should react to the NFL, though, aren't there?

So sick of this shit.

[rzemanfl]

30. +1. n/t

[Squinch]

33. I think they really think we don't notice.

[pangaia]

51. 3 guesses.......

don;t know about this case but somewhere I read the ruskies are involved in the NFL thing... pushing conflict...

[Squinch]

82. Yep. It's just the kind of idiocy they like to spin.

[Blue_true]

55. Most of the new posters mean well.

I think that with Trump being in the White House and republicans doing nothing about his actions, and the chaos happening in a lot of red states, we are getting a lot of bluedog democrats joining our ranks. We can respectfully disagree with their positions and respectfully explain why, or we can humiliate them for having a view somewhat different from ours. I believe that the latter is self-defeating.

The poster was not advocating a republican position, the concern seemed to have been that if we fully support protests to the anthem, we may be handing republicans a winning issue for November. I happen to disagree with that view, we have always been a party that protected Americans' rightful freedoms, we should never back away from that, because if we do, why bother having a country.

[DemoHack]

59. I've been lurking around since 2002.

Through the "Deaniac" phase in 2004, as well as Kucinich, who many here now hate.

I read this site during the good times in 2006 and 2008.

I ignored this place during the 2016 primary though.

But please, keep attacking me, and not my argument that we should stand for the national anthem, while still working on the issues that initiated the protest.

[Blue_true]

65. Reread my post.

I did not attack you. My position was that you have a view and have your reasons for feeling as you do. I disagree with your position, but respect your right to have it and I believe no one should try to humiliate you because of your view on this issue, doing that is counterproductive, IMO.

[DemoHack]

71. You're a very respectful and thoughtful person.

I thank you for that. I believe I hit the wrong "Reply to" button.


Blue Wave '18.

[Blue_true]

77. No problem. The Demo party is a big tent party. Republicans lean facist, except the ones that have

bailed.

[Squinch]

84. Some do. Some are here to stir division using specific issues, complete with bogus statistics.

[Blue_true]

110. You make point, but members are able to figure that out.

Some better than others, but it gets figured out. I get angry at some posters, but I have learned not to reply to them in a way that may offend (exceptions happen if they have attacked me). The particular OP does not appear to trying to cause trouble, the post seemed to have been a sincere expression of a different point of view on a hot button issue.

[Squinch]

114. Well good for you.

[Caliman73]

16. My patriotism is not defined by standing for a song.

My patriotism is defined by what I do to make my community and my country better. Outward expressions of "patriotism" are for show. Donald Trump stands for the anthem, is he a patriot?

I refuse to play by the rules of the game that right wingers make up to exclude people or brainwash them into some kind of cult like conformity.

If we want to win back Congress we need to show people a vision of how Democratic policies can make their lives better. Wearing silly flag lapel pins and standing for a song is just the laziest and least meaningful thing that can be done to show how you want to make life better for people.

[sunRISEnow]

17. Most people do stand. Some people don't. We all make choices for whatever reason.

[Blue_true]

60. Some people use the anthem as a chance to go get food and beer.

My position is that whatever a person does, including players, that is their right. I registered for the Draft and had two brothers fight in wars. A number of my relatives are career military and a couple are cops. I see nothing wrong with players kneeling during the anthem.

[NRaleighLiberal]

18. Kinda like how putting a magnet slogan on a car really

Accomplishes stuff.

I say bullshit.

[Hekate]

20. And all those heading for the concessions to get snacks? Do they stop what they are doing ...

...to put their hands on their hearts and face Mecca, I mean the Flag? Do the people watching from home stop everything and murmur a prayer with their hands folded?

No, this is not religion we are dealing with. And even if it were, the First Amendment protects our right to not participate. Good manners dictates respect; the Constitution doesn't even dictate that.

--> from the concession stand

[renegade000]

21. I do think you're right in that we should be trying to assume the mantle of patriotism...

I mean, nothing "nationalist" or "patriotic" about Trump/GOP getting illegal foreign aid to win elections and then selling out US policy for money to same foreign sources. I think they've forfeited the right to the mantle of patriotism for generations.

So you're right, we need to be careful not to concede what should be an obvious point to us.

That's why I think it's good to have people like Tammy Duckworth lead the response. She ties our position regarding free speech with a personal example of true sacrifice for this country.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. I suspect folks of all political bents stand for the Anthem.

It just shouldn't be mandatory

[TheRealNorth]

42. +1

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. If I ever decide to take a knee it will be because someone said I couldn't.

[Squinch]

23. Bullshit. And who are you to be telling Democrats what to do? The RIGHT thing to do

is to join the protests calling for an end to black men being randomly shot when they go out for a quart of milk.

[pangaia]

52. +++++++ +

[DemoHack]

64. Remember standing for the anthem is also a sign of respect...

For the veterans who fought and died for this country.

I support the right for any player to protest, unequivocally. I also support Americans who want to stand for their anthem.

[DemoHack]

68. A lot of swearing and vitriol. Not many coherent arguments as to why I am wrong...

I support the right to protest unequivocally.

But standing for the national anthem means different things to different people. For a lot of people it is a sign of respect for our military and for the veterans who gave their lives for this country.

[Squinch]

72. Remember, there is nothing DISRESPECTFUL about KNEELING for the flag.

Standing or kneeling at a football game has nothing whatsoever to do with veterans, so spare me that right wing clap trap.

And remember, many veterans are black men, in the same danger of being randomly killed as other black men.

And no, you don't support that right. You are telling us we should not do it.

[EffieBlack]

80. No, it's not

Many veterans will tell you that.

If you really believe that standing and facing the flag during the National Anthem is the only appropriate way to show respect for the flag and, by extension, all of the veteran who fought and died for this country (notwithstanding the number of veterans who also have taken a knee and have come out and said they fought for people's right to express themselves as they see fit) why don't you insist that EVERYONE stand for the National Anthem, not just football players?

Why not advocate for concession stands and stadium bathrooms to be shut down during the National Anthem? Why not insist that everyone stand for the National Anthem wherever they are, whether they're on a football field or not? Why not demand that sports bars, restaurants stop serving and patrons stop drinking and eating when the National Anthem comes on?

Unless it spreads to demands that everyone everywhere every time stand, wherever they are and whatever they're doing when the National Anthem is played, it is clear that this is a bullshit "controversy" that has nothing to do with the National Anthem, the flag or love of country but is nothing more than some ignorant, bigoted, privileged wealthy white men having a fit because they haven't been able to get a group of black men they "own" to do what massa tells them to do. That's all well and good. These smart, committed brothers can handle it. The sad thing is that they've gotten some well-meaning people to back them up.

[bronxiteforever]

88. Outstanding points. +1000

[pangaia]

89. man, you are good at this.............. ++++++++++++++++

[pangaia]

87. "... standing for the anthem is also a sign of respect...For the veterans who fought and died for

this country."

I have NEVER thought of it that way. Not for a second.

[rzemanfl]

27. Use a canoe paddle. It stirs much more effectively. n/t

[Va Lefty]

29. Thank you for voicing an unpopular opinion

you may well be right that "this is just the type of Trumpian Red Meat that WILL drive our opponents to the polls." There comes a time, when you must make a stand, even if the rest of the sheep say "that's baaaaaad."

[RockRaven]

32. I'll give full-throated support for everyone standing for the national anthem when

they stop playing it at every goddamned sporting event, and other times/places that have nothing to do with nationalism or patriotism.

Reserve it for special, solemn occasions, and then let's talk.

[MontanaMama]

47. +1

There’s no reason to play it at sporting event that I’m aware of. Even my kiddo who plays Little League is forced to recite a pledge that starts with “I trust in God. I love my country...” He asks me what God and country have to do with baseball. I have no answer for him.

[Scurrilous]

34. Next!

[Ccarmona]

37. How 'bout we just don't play anything

There’s no anthem before ANY EPL kickoff, so I don’t know why it’s played before sporting events here.

[Blues Heron]

38. I only stand for the Hendrix version

otherwise - yeah I'm taking a knee every time.

[livetohike]

50. +1000

[lunatica]

58. I even cry with that version!

His rendition goes right through you to rock your very soul!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

39. People should mind their own fucking business. This idiotic fake ass patriotism has gotten

beyond childish. Especially coming from people who at most could only name 2 amendments to the constitution.

[hunter]

40. I don't like the song and I don't like football.

Not going to be a problem for me. You'll never see me at a football game.

I don't say the pledge either.

When I was a kid my mom was Jehovah's Witness.

Apparently the Pledge of Allegiance would get you in trouble with God so I ignored it. Mostly I read, sometimes I'd doodle. Mostly I drew spaceships. Space exploration inspired my interest in science and technology. Or maybe it was the other way around.

Religious Freedom is more important than some bad nationalistic poetry set to the music of an English drinking song.

[WePurrsevere]

53. Umm... No...

Democrats should always be on the side of human/civil & constitutional rights even when it's messy and/or 'inconvenient'.

You have a right to stand, that's your right & choice. I however will continue to support the right to take a knee in, what IMO is actually a rather respectful, peaceful protest.

Instead of Democrats trying to force others to stand for the pledge perhaps we should speak up in defence of those who take a knee and do a better job of A) educating the public about why some do it, B) informing people how the constitutional right to speech and protest isn't just for those they agree with and C) taking more steps to STOP the REASONS that people feel that taking a knee needs to be done in the first place.

If you want a party made up of lockstep lemmings, Democrats certainly are NOT that and thank goodness.

[EffieBlack]

62. Democrats are for being respectful

Which Colin Kaepernick was doing by kneeling quietly - upon the advice of a Navy Seal veteran.

We are also for freedom of speech and expression and not having the government or anyone else tell us or anyone else what it means to us to be respectful.

[DemoHack]

79. There is not a thing you said, that I disagree with.

[EffieBlack]

83. Then why do you say that Democrats should stand?

[GulfCoast66]

69. Democrats should support and defend all choices

But we really, really do not want to be defined as the party of kneeling during the anthem.

We really do not.

[Crutchez_CuiBono]

70. I will take it one at a time.

If I'm in front of impressionable children you always model good behavior. I reserve the right to stand or sit or sleep or salute, the anthem, at my discretion. It's a private decision like praying. Open discussions are foolish imho. HAven't we go bigger fish to fry?
PS...I'm behind the kneelers 100%. If it weren't all over youtube that people are getting gunned down by the overly excited.

[thegoose]

76. Nope

It will be interpreted and covered in the media as cooperating with Blotus and the Pukes.

[Ferrets are Cool]

85. Democrats should be making up their own minds, not letting someone else do it

for them.

[PSPS]

90. It's sad that enough people fell for this to create 85 replies.

[ucrdem]

91. Alternative anthem for SWs and other peaceniks

[doc03]

92. Every time someone takes on Trump with social issues they loose nt

[sharedvalues]

93. What? Better: white and black DUers kneel TOGETHER

If white and black people kneel together, what could be a better sign of racial harmony?

[Cal Carpenter]

96. Fuck that bullshit. TRUTH BEFORE RECONCILIATION. n/t

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

97. Damn straight!!

[denbot]

99. FUCK THAT!

Fuck phony Fox News patriotism.

[sinkingfeeling]

101. Standing for the anthem is not the 'right thing to do.' When the country has

betrayed It's founding principles, the anthem has no meaning at all.

[stonecutter357]

103. cool story bro ! I stand for no anthem .

[ooky]

104. I think democrats should be standing for the Constitution

and I don't think the NFL's new rule is constitutional. I see it as caving to this unconstitutional wannabe dictator President. Telling the players they are required to either stand, or hide themselves in their locker room was just another load of Trump's unconstitutional bullshit.

Let's stay together as a party that stands together for our constitutional freedoms, in this case standing with both those who choose to stand or kneel. Either way it IS their 1st Amendment right, and if you stand for the Constitution there are no other options.

[Major Nikon]

107. We should compel everyone to stand to demonstrate how free we are

Oh wait...

[Codeine]

108. That's a lot of words but no argument at all.

You’ve spent a lot of verbiage to say essentially nothing. Fail.

[wellst0nev0ter]

109. Your post made me think of this article

Centrists Are the Most Hostile to Democracy, Not Extremists

private window/incognito to get around paywall.

[lapucelle]

122. "People Who Self Identify as Centrists" would be more accurate. N/T

[eShirl]

115. I'm pro-choice on standing for the national anthem.

and this isn't a jingoism contest

[Demsrule86]

116. I choose to stand for the national anthem...not sure I should until after Trump is gone...with him

in office very little to take pride in.