Re Wypipo and Divisiveness

[EffieBlack]

Folk keep insisting that the term "Whypipo" is "divisive." but all I get back are meta definitions such as "It's divisive because it causes division."

So I'm going to try one more time.

What exactly is "divisive" about the term "Wypipo?"

Specifically:

1. Who does it divide and what does that division look like/mean?

2. If the term "Wypipo" causes a divide, what was the layout of views about race, racism, discrimination, privilege before the word turned up on DU a couple of weeks ago? Were the people who are now divided as set forth in the response to Question 1 all on the same side of these issues with no disagreements or dissent between them but now are different sides because someone began discussing the word on DU?

3. If you consider yourself to be an ally in the fight for racial justice, has the fact that a stranger whom you don't know and will likely never meet wrote the term "Wypipo" on an anonymous online discussion board changed your opinion, perspective or behavior vis a vis racial justice?

4. If your answer to Question 3 is yes, please explain how your opinion, perspective or behavior vis a vis racial justice has changed in the past couple of weeks? For example, did the word "Wypipo" make you less likely to continue fighting for racial justice? D

I look forward to actually getting some real answers, finally, to my very simple request that the people who keep using the term "divisive" define your term - and disabuse us of the notion that "divisive" means nothing more than "You're talking about race in a way that makes me uncomfortable."

Thanks.

[Bok_Tukalo]

1. Calling people a racial epithet is a way of "talking about race"?

I disagree.

[EffieBlack]

5. I'll put you down as "Can't provide a definition"

Thanks.

[Bok_Tukalo]

7. That would probably be more comfortable for you than engaging

I don’t blame you.

[EffieBlack]

8. LOL

I AM engaging. You just don't like how I'm doing it and continue to insist on telling others how we should and should not engage. But your efforts at tone language policing don't work on me

Of course, it's up to you whether you're going to respond or participate. But pretending that you're trying to engage in some high-minded discussion but I won't let you is laughable.

[mythology]

20. No, you're denying.

You asked for a reason, you were given one and just dismissed it because it's inconvenient for you. You aren't asking the question in good faith based on your response.

[sheshe2]

58. Wait a second here.

Bok_Tukalo
7. That would probably be more comfortable for you than engaging

I don’t blame you.

Effie in her OP asked a question. You refused to answer then say she is not ' engaging' when in fact it was you that refuse to answer and therefore disengaged.

[guillaumeb]

2. It is shorthand, and simple.

And while some see it as simplistic, the simple fact is that racism persists in this country 400 years after the first Africans were brought here in chains.


The Southern flag, the Sons of the South, the segregation that persists, the new Jim Crow of the prison complex, Trump himself, all show the deep roots of racial hate in this country.

And that makes people uncomfortable, but that discomfort should be directed at the problem, not a term like Wypipo.



Well stated, by the way, and recommended.

[NurseJackie]

6. 👍

[Renew Deal]

3. I've seen these types of arguments by racists many times before

Followed by something about not having a "white history month"

[nini]

4. It's not divisive

It's touching a nerve and they refuse to step back and self reflect as to why.

[procon]

39. You said "they" like that's the vilified "others", people who are intrinsically different

and less worthy than yourself. Since these others must act deferential and "step back and self reflect as to why", so is this more about revenge or is there some productive solution hidden away in all that non-divisive rhetoric?

[nini]

53. Yawn

[procon]

54. I'm not a teenager, so you're safe. nt

[nini]

62. Another yawn

[bettyellen]

79. Wow, being asked to take time to think is somehow a revenge?

It might feel that way to some very defensive and myopic folks, but it really shouldn’t. If your premise is problems shouldn’t be discussed by thrive suffering from unless it’s to cure the problem- as in racism- that’s pretty fucked up.

You really should try to have some empathy. Jeeze.

[TCJ70]

9. A race is being used as an insult...

...is it really that hard to see how something like that is divisive? In addition to that, any word that separates people into groups, drawing lines between factions is inherently divisive. It’s dividing people up. You’re smart. This isn’t hard.

From dictionary.com:

Divisive
Adjective
1. forming or expressing division or distribution.

I’ve been labeled wypipo on this site, not for saying I’m offended by the word, but just for saying I disagree with using race based insults. It’s incredible to watch that happen when all you’re saying is that insults based on race aren’t cool that suddenly you’re the bigot and racist.

[EffieBlack]

10. You haven't answered the questions

Yes. I am smart. Very smart. And that's why I know that saying something is inherently divisive and divides people is not a definition of "divisive."

[Renew Deal]

16. Change the W word to the N word and reread your OP

[EffieBlack]

22. No. But I do suggest you reread your OP and consider deleting it.

But I do suggest you reread your OP and consider deleting it.

[Renew Deal]

48. Of course you won't. That would reveal your hypocrisy

I don't have an OP on this topic

[EffieBlack]

95. As I was saying ...

(WARNING: GRAPHIC LANGUAGE CONTAINED HEREIN)

You should consider deleting your post (not OP - I misspoke) since not only can’t “Wypipo” be replaced with ( “nigger,” the fact that you would even suggest it reveals such a cluelessness, it undercuts pretty much anything else you might have to say.

[George II]

59. What? The "W" word is a relatively recent word and isn't used derogatorily, just descriptively....

...whereas the "N" word has been used for close to 200 years or more and HAS been used derogatorily and as "rationalization" for countless lynchings and murders.

It boggles my mind that anyone could compare one to the other.

Serious question - have you ever seen a white person dangling from a tree with a sign saying "Wypipo"? Further, have you ever seen children run a gauntlet of Blacks taunting "Wypipo" as they tried to go to school?

[sheshe2]

64. Woah.

Bravo.







https://www.democraticunderground.com/10025653764#top

[George II]

65. Little Rock 1959:

"N" = "W"? I think not!

[sheshe2]

67. I think I saw that kid somewhere...

Yep...10 years later.

[George II]

94. Sadly we come across people like that almost every day.

[Eliot Rosewater]

113. And you can find them in all kinds of places, too. Most of them not clever enough to

hide who they are but a few are.

[Eliot Rosewater]

122. Sometimes I am AMAZED Barack got elected.

[sheshe2]

123. There was more of us than them.

Gawd. Election night 2008 and 2012 where the happiest days of my life.

[radical noodle]

72. I've heard that from Roseanne supporters recently

who claim that calling trump an orangutan is just as bad as Roseanne's comment about Valerie Jarrett and the Planet of the Apes. Is it really? Saying Wypipo is NOTHING like saying the N word.

[tonedevil]

78. Change the history of the US...

so black people kept white people as slaves for 400 years and your point is valid.

[gollygee]

100. You are claiming an equivalence that does not exist. nt

[TCJ70]

17. Hmmm...

saying something is inherently divisive and divides people is not a definition of "divisive."

That’s not what I said. I said:

any word that separates people into groups, drawing lines between factions is inherently divisive.

Let’s look up some definitions shall we?

Dictionary.com - Divisive (Adjective)
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/divisive
1. Forming or expressing division or distribution

Expressing division...well a common defense of the word is that it doesn’t mean all white people, so there’s a division there somewhere. I’d say this definition fits.

Merriam-Webster - Divisive (Adjective)
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/divisive
Creating disunity or dissension

Once again, creating disunity, dividing one group of people into separate groups. I guess this one fits, too.

Man, 0 for 2. Maybe if we look at the root of the word. Divide...no that won’t work. Ya know what? I think this word might be divisive, no matter how you slice it.

At the end of the day, though, you’re either ok with race based insults or you aren’t. I’m not. So I disagree with their use. You can’t say that using a racial descriptor as an insult isn’t race based. Seems pretty simple to me.

[mythology]

27. But you didn't declare your smartness. Obviously you lose the discussion

This thread is amusing.

[procon]

47. Donald! Donald Trump, is that really you?

The internet is wonderful, isn't it, any anonymous stranger can claim to be smart or anything else they want to be. What next, a puppet, a pauper, a pirate, a poet, a pawn or a king... my apologies to Mr Sinatra.

[George II]

61. That's life!

[Bok_Tukalo]

11. It is a racial epithet

It is all white people. Or each white person as necessary. That’s how race based pejoratives work.

[ecstatic]

12. When an ally begs you to stop and you don't...

It lowers the discourse. There's a lot of words and phrases that I've been told I shouldn't say because they are offensive. In some cases, I don't get it. But it's not my job to decide for another person what is and is not offensive. If someone asks you to stop, just stop. Just be kind, at least here on this site.

[Bok_Tukalo]

13. Allies are the worst "wypipo"

https://www.theroot.com/it-s-official-white-allies-are-the-worst-wypipo-in-the-1797481427

[treestar]

21. That's pretty hopeless

White allies are just dishonest and still racist deep down so they are worse than the racists who admit to it.

[Bok_Tukalo]

26. Yes. Internalize that.

“Allies” are laughed at, ridiculed, derided, and loathed.

Don’t be one.

Just be a decent human being.

[Crunchy Frog]

34. According to that article, Hillary is the worst.

Nice to finally see a definitive definition.

[EffieBlack]

36. No definition - he doesn't even mention the term "divisive" much less define it

But it is pretty funny to see people who insist on telling everyone else what we mean when we speak but refuse in this one instance to define their own term - suddenly decide that Michael Harriott is a reliable, unassailable source, even on things he never even mentioned.

[Crunchy Frog]

41. I was talking (to the previous poster) about the definition of the "w" word.

I have absolutely no interest in debating or discussing the main issue of this thread. Was simply making a comment about something else in a subthread.

[Petrushka]

40. I'm shocked to see WHO the essayist considers to be among the worst "wypipo"!

[wonkwest]

71. Oh man, that is awful

I read the Root maybe once or twice a week, but I somehow missed that one.

"You're the worst kind of person. Now support me!"

And yet, the author is probably baffled and angry that more people aren't allies.

What a total mystery.

[Eliot Rosewater]

114. Two ways to look at something written by someone with life experiences you have NO POSSIBLE

way of understanding.

I know what I do when I see something I may not at first understand.

[EffieBlack]

125. 'Splain to them why they're wrong?

[Bok_Tukalo]

143. Something you seem to enjoy doing.

<OPE>

[EffieBlack]

15. You STILL haven't answered the question

And, by the way - your "allies" have begged white folk on DU to stop gaslighting us ("stop making everything about race), defending indefensible behavior ("the cops didn't have any choice but to arrest/shoot him&quot , attacking our heroes ("John Lewis is a sellout because he didn't endorse Bernie&quot and they've not only completely ignored us and continued to do it, but then accuse US of being "divisive" when we object.

So I'm really not impressed with the newfound concerns about not saying anything that might offend some of our "allies" - and not just because most true allies wouldn't even think about equating a term like "Wypipo" to nigger nor do they react to a stranger using it as if they're about to be dragged out of their homes in the dark of night and lynched.

But I'll put you down as a "Can't answer the question.""

Next!

[ecstatic]

24. I don't know if anyone compared wyp** to n***, so I can't speak on it

First thing I'll say is, I don't have a problem with you. I've recc'd most of your posts.

You're angry. I get it. So am I. I haven't immersed myself in the other threads on this topic, but if you're suggesting that I have done any of those things that you've mentioned, that's complete BS. Again, I'm not white. I'm black. And I live in Atlanta, so of course the attacks on John Lewis infuriated me. Never been a Bernie supporter, in fact, some might describe me as a hater.

Now back to the point.... I've said it before, I'll say it again: The vile behavior of trump and other racists in this country doesn't give me or you or anyone else a free pass to become just as vile/rude. Especially to people who are generally on my side.

I see you put "ally" in quotes. If you don't think of DU as a community of allies, and you feel hatred and resentment, then why be here?

On the other hand, if you do see DU as a community of allies, why would you intentionally be hurtful/disrespectful?

And this time, try answering MY questions without all the extra hyperbole and adding of words that I've never said.

[EffieBlack]

43. Scroll up

And I'm not angry.

[ecstatic]

45. Interesting. nt

[EffieBlack]

46. DU is a community of thousands of people. Many of them are allies. Lots of them are not

Some of them are assholes. Some of them are racists. Some of them are confused. Some of them are disturbed.

People here get offended by all manner of things. Some get offended by my presence here. Some get offended because I'm not a Bernie fan. Some get offended because I speak up about race and get mad, hostile and hateful matter what language I use or how gentle my tone or patient my demeanor.

Given all of that, I'm not going to twist myself into knots making sure that nothing I write ever offends anyone. The only way to do that is to not say anything at all - which, I suspect is what some people would love for me to do.

So, just as I am expected not to and don't get myself all worked up every time one of the thousands of DUers says something that offends me - even after I've told them they're being offensive - I also expect others to grow a thicker skin and expect that if they're going to participate in a diverse online discussion board, they are likely to read things they don't agree with and often don't like and frequently get their feelings hurt.

[ecstatic]

51. ok, but when does it become bullying? I'm sure I offend

people all the time. Not something I'm proud of. But those are isolated, unrelated incidents.

On the other hand, if I were to keep using one specific word, and that word always leads to division and fighting, and hurts some people's feelings... at what point does it become bullying? Especially when it's so easy to just stop saying it. I just don't get what good comes out of using it in DU:GD as opposed to a site with more similar minded people?

[sheshe2]

75. Why is it your job to tell people what they can or cannot say on this site?

ecstatic
12. When an ally begs you to stop and you don't...

It lowers the discourse. There's a lot of words and phrases that I've been told I shouldn't say because they are offensive. In some cases, I don't get it. But it's not my job to decide for another person what is and is not offensive. If someone asks you to stop, just stop. Just be kind, at least here on this site.

What they say lowers the discourse?

"But it's not my job to decide for another person what is and is not offensive"

Then you go on and say:

If someone asks you to stop, just stop.

Alrigthy then. Not your job to tell people what they can and cannot say, then go on and tell them what they can and cannot say.

[ecstatic]

77. I didn't say that. I said I don't get to determine what another person finds offensive.

So if someone tells me on multiple occasions that one particular word is offensive, I respect it.

[Tarc]

99. But the OP is telling you, on multiple occasions, what they find offensive

about the situation of racial divides and how the support of progressive whites is less than ideal. Why don't you respect that?

[kcr]

102. That sounds nice

It may seem intuitive to blanket yourself in an all-bad-words-are-equally-bad-no-matter-what-don't-be-mean! policy and call it good, thinking that will make yourself a nice ally for everyone, but it doesn't work that way.

These false equivalency arguments and claims of victimhood are really about dominating the conversation and maintaining position in the hierarchy. It is right to call out that bs.

[Sailor65x1]

14. error_overflow

// Wypipo overflow_error.cpp
// compile with: /EHsc /GR
#include <bitset>
#include <iostream>

using namespace Wypipo;

int Wypipo_Thread_Counter( )
{
try
{
bitset< 33 > bitset;
bitset[32] = 1;
bitset[0] = 1;
unsigned long x = bitset.to_ulong( );
}
catch (Wypipo exception &e )
{
cerr << "Caught " << e.what( ) << endl;
cerr << "Type " << typeid( e ).name( ) << endl;
};
}
* Output:
Caught bitset<N> overflow
Type class std_overflow_error, "Wypipo thread count overflow: reduce Wypipo thread count, or assign count to 64-bit register"
*

[sheshe2]

18. Hell no!

3. If you consider yourself to be an ally in the fight for racial justice, has the fact that a stranger whom you don't know and will likely never meet wrote the term "Wypipo" on an anonymous online discussion board changed your opinion, perspective or behavior vis a vis racial justice?

I am one of the ones that posted about wypipo. I have also seen the comments that some may just withdraw their support???? if this continues. If a disruptive, their words not mine word causes them to abandon racial justice, then they really were not that into seeking justice in the first place.


It is time to UnFuck America

posted this awhile back. to be exact, 2014.

Am I Next?












https://www.democraticunderground.com/10025653764#top

Past time we 'Unfuck America'

Thanks Effie.

[EffieBlack]

25. A lot of the folks throwing fits about "Wypipo" were the same ones telling us back in 2015-16 that

saying "Black Lives Matter" was "divisive" and we should find more palatable ways to express ourselves so as not to offend our "allies."

Same music, different lyrics.

[sheshe2]

37. Basically.

You were told to sit down and shut the hell up, then and now. How dare you?

I saw a post about how, without all this division that we can have and have had awesome discussions about race here. LMFAO....have they read the AA Group here lately? Have they even noticed that they closed shop, run off, mostly silenced and lights out. We are not user friendly to AA.

[Eliot Rosewater]

115. Yep and almost EVERY last one of them has one other thing in common from that time period

[EffieBlack]

124. Hmmm

I'm gonna need to think about that for 2 or 3 seconds to figure out what you're talking about.

[Eliot Rosewater]

126. LOL I almost pm'd you before I read the whole sentence...

[Docreed2003]

19. I'd post a funny Wypipo gif

But the last time I did that I got accused of making fun of people in the gif...SMDH, Wypipo....lol.

This term, which isn't even being used for ALL whites, a term used to describe the Wypipo who do stupid Wypipo stuff, seems to bring out some crazy emotions in this forum.


Love ya Effie...keep pushing this envelope open! This whole thing has taught me much about people's perceptions...and that some clearly are offended when Wypipo gifs are posted in this forum!

[drmeow]

23. Divisive

"tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people" - Dictionary.com

"Creating disunity or dissension (partisan and contentious quarreling)" - Miriam Webster online

While the root may be divide, the term does not necessarily mean to cause division. This makes questions 1 and 2 difficult to answer.

Regarding question 3, no it has not changed my view, perspective, or behavior. I still believe that I experience tremendous privilege, I still acknowledge that I do not do enough to counter that privilege, I still acknowledge that I struggle with unconscious bias, and I still believe that there is an inordinate amount of racism in this country and we should all be working to change that even though I don't think I completely do my part.

On the other hand, while the use of the term most likely stems from "you are talking about race in a way that makes me uncomfortable" for some people and even somewhat for me (however, did does not take the term Wypipo to make me feel shame about the treatment of minorities in this country), the continued use of the term on a partisan forum when members of the forum have expressed discomfort with it does appear to me to cause disagreement, hostility, disunity, and dissension. As such, I accept the assertion that the use of the term is divisive based on the definitions of divisive I posted above.

[EffieBlack]

30. Thank you for offering a definition and a very thoughtful answer.

"tending to cause disagreement or hostility between people"/"Creating disunity or dissension (partisan and contentious quarreling)"

I understand the dictionary definition. But don't these definitions describe just about any topic posted on DU where people disagree and often get hostile and dissent about all manner of topics - from whether Bernie Sanders is a true Democratic ally to whether Joe Biden should run for president or Nancy Pelosi should step down or Joe Manchin is too conservative to whether Democrats should or shouldn't take impeachment off the table and countless other subjects?

So, if your definitions are accurate, shouldn't we insist that NO controversial topic be discussed on DU and ONLY those topics that don't tend to cause any disagreement, hostility, disunity or dissension should be allowed?

But we can always just post cute puppy videos ...

[drmeow]

60. After I posted

I thought about editing it to add -

I do see the term as somewhat hostile and divisive but I also see the hostility as warranted (or at least understandable) and I find DU to be increasingly divisive (to the point that I rarely actually post - although I often write posts and then delete them ) so ... I guess I agree with your point.

Why does it always have to be about puppies. We need more cute kitten videos!!!!!

[DonCoquixote]

28. the article done by the guy that coined it

https://www.theroot.com/in-defense-of-wypipo-1797033553

[EffieBlack]

31. Yes. I've read it. It doesn't answer my question

And Michael Harriott didn't create the word.

[oberliner]

33. Michael Harriot, author of: "Why I Could Never Vote For Hillary Clinton"

Since we're talking about things that are divisive.

[EffieBlack]

35. Hey, Boo - I was SO excited when I saw a link to Harriott because I KNEW that would smoke you out

I'm a little jealous of your obsession with Harriott - you're almost as obsessed with him as you are with me. But I'm learning how to deal with it ...

[oberliner]

44. Thanks

I gave a response to your questions below. I hope that they are helpful to you in understanding what you seem to be confused about.

Honestly, I think if the term had been introduced not via Michael Harriot's dumb "‘WYPIPO’ EXPLAINED" article then we would not have gotten to this point of divisiveness in the first place.

[mcar]

29. Good questions

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for answers.

[ProudLib72]

32. I will be the final arbiter of this long standing dispute

For the sake of expediency and clarity, the "W" word will now be written out thusly:

Persons-of-Caucasian-descent-who-are-so-clueless-about-racism-that-they-believe-their-patently-racist-remarks-or-deeds-are-not-racist-remarks-or-deeds.

Yes, "expediency" because think of how many repetitious OPs this will obviate! No one in their right mind will want to use a term that takes five minutes to hyphenate.

[EffieBlack]

38. I LOVE it!

But, of course, certain Persons-of-Caucasian-descent-who-are-so-clueless-about-racism-that-they-believe-their-patently-racist-remarks-or-deeds-are-not-racist-remarks-or-deeds will get their shorts all in a bunch because how dare you say Caucasian and racism in the same sentence. That's RACIST, you know!

[Eliot Rosewater]

116. All of the "splainin" you are receiving here today, wow, record breaking

IT is no laughing matter, white supremacy and privilege, which we see EVERYWHERE, but we will have to laugh sometimes

[EffieBlack]

120. Not only am gettin some good splainin, but did you know I've been given a new job?

It's now my responsibility to praise white people for not being jerks so that I can encourage them to continue not being jerks and inspire other white people not to be jerks.

And that's on top of making sure I don't ever do anything to offend or make uncomfortable any other Persons-of-Caucasian-descent-who-are-so-clueless-about-racism-that-they-believe-their-patently-racist-remarks-or-deeds-are-not-racist-remarks-or-deeds

Can't chat - lotta work to do.

Bye.

[Eliot Rosewater]

121. You are the BEST!

[EffieBlack]

127. So are you

It's always better here when you show up ...

[ProudLib72]

136. You realize I was being super facetious, right?

Especially in assuming everyone should follow what I say.

[Eliot Rosewater]

137. Oh lord yes, in fact, I didnt read your post until now, I was referring to the usual

folks who actually do think it is their job to explain racism to black people.

No, I am a FAN of yours!

[oberliner]

42. These are great questions

1. It divides DU members. Similar to any other discussion on DU where people disagree (i.e. should we care that Joy Reid lied about her blog being hacked and made numerous homophobic posts in the past?). What the division looks like is people arguing, getting annoyed with each other, posting numerous threads to keep the argument going, etc.

2. The layout of views about those topics was the same before the term as it was after the term. This just introduced a word into the mix for people to argue about.

3. No, it hasn't changed anything in that regard.

4. N/A

The fundamental misunderstanding is in your last sentence (before "Thanks" ). Perceiving this in that way disregards the fact that this term was introduced to DU with a definition that was patently ridiculous and nonsensical.

For example: "White people don’t season their food, but wypipo like theirs organic, free range and gluten free."

and "Most white people love animals, but wypipo will kiss their dog in the mouth and feed them with the same silverware they are eating with."

Would you agree that these are at least silly and not really helpful in terms of having any kind of serious discussion of race?

[progressoid]

52. +1

[fescuerescue]

49. Why is North Carolina divided over the best BBQ sauce?

I suppose we could break it down into the type of sugars and vinegars. Cooking techniques and complementary menu choices.

But really - people view things differently.

Divisive things are like that. People have opinions and it's generally hard to force others to see things your way. The details - don't really matter in the end.

When you add race into the mix, it's like adding gasoline to fire.

I really don't think its very complicated.

[LostinRed]

50. It's divisive because that is the intent

You might consider that a meta definition but every post on this subject have been contentious. That should prove 1. Personally I really don’t care about it but there are many people here that just want to troll by using the word. When I was as at UCLA in the 90’s I was referred to as Opie many times. I didn’t care then and I don’t care now; you can refer to me as any term you want. I will still support social justice and race equality but the label doesn’t prompt a real discussion on race equality. Keep posting on the subject though.

[HDSam]

55. I am unfamiliar with

this word, assuming it is a word and not some sort of acronym.

I’m lost on it’s significance so having a better idea of what it refers to and intends to communicate would be beneficial to my understanding.

[LexVegas]

56. Dont know about divisive, but it is rather obnoxious. nt

[ismnotwasm]

57. White people by and large

Refuse to understand racism or refuse to try. Or we kind of try and get into these false equivalencies that leads to your questions. Sometimes we do try hard-and trying hard is a requirement for success— and become as good of allies as we can be. I admire you for continuing here, I must say.

I keep saying I come from racists. Raised by racists. It’s all over my white family in many of its forms, covert or overt. I’ve taken college courses in it. I watched it and not spoken up. I’ve seen it and raised all the hell I was capable of. I’ve made and lost friends over it. I can practically smell it. I recognize it when I see it, even when it’s being soft pedaled as we are the world bullshit, but sometimes the sheer stupidity of it—such as comparisons of the N word to “wypipo”—surprises me. This lets me know I have a lot of anti-racist work left to do, because I bet people of color aren’t surprised by how stupid racism can be. (My own personal journey from this environment to becoming as aware of racism and the death power of whiteness and becoming as anti-racist and anti-whiteness* as I can be is a long story
*whiteness defined as the dominant social paradigm.
I get that people want to “get along”—white people in particular are good at either avoiding uncomfortable conversations or doing this:

We aren’t so good at listening, or rather, truly hearing when the topic of race becomes uncomfortable. We have a long way to go.

[uppityperson]

63. K&R. Interesting how I found this thread. K&R

[wonkwest]

66. I'll take a crack at this

1. It divides black commentators from white allies who desire to listen and learn. Speaking only for me, if I see wypipo in an article's title, I am no longer receptive to what that person has to say. It speaks to their character, and if a person needs a juvenile racial pejorative to net eyeballs, I don't imagine anything else they have to say is particularly useful. It tells me they don't want to engage. They want back pats and snickers from people who already agree with them. And if it comes at the cost of other people's discomfort, so be it. A person who behaves in that way is not someone I'm paying any heed.

2. I enjoy engaging in racial discussions, listening, and learning. I am in a mixed race relationship and have dated nonwhite people for many, many years now. I always like listening, learning, debating, trying to see things from different angles and perspectives. What the word has done is put white allies on the defensive unnecessarily.

I've heard a lot of, "You're uncomfortable? Good!" But there is good discomfort and bad discomfort. Facing uncomfortable truths, seeing and recognizing one's own behavior and complicity in discrimination and privilege, realizing you could have and should have done a lot more. That is good discomfort. Having someone mock, poke fun, and deride an ethnicity? Bad discomfort. That people cannot parse the difference between the two is a big problem in social justice activism these days. Discomfort in and of itself is thought of as an absolute good.

It is not. It can be corrosive, dismissive, and turn people off from what you're trying to explain to them.

3. Me personally? No. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Racial pejoratives are wrong, by the way. Just because it's anti-privilege or only after a "certain kind of white person" doesn't ameliorate the practical effects the word has on people. "I can mock your ethnicity, and you just have to take it! Because oppression and privilege!" No one older than nineteen should be thinking this way.

4. Non-applicable.

But I'll add my own.

5. Wypipo is wrong in the way other racial pejoratives are. Warning, I'm going to write out some slurs in the following. Note, these pejoratives aren't only uttered by white people. Any person of any ethnicity can and has said these things about the targeted ethnicity.

- "Oh, he's a nice black/colored fella. He's not one of those n---ers."

- "Oh, she's the nicest oriental girl. She isn't a chink, ya know?"

- "Yeah, he's queer, but he isn't a faggot."

- "Sure, they're a Jew, ya know, but not like a kike or anything."

- "She's a hard-ass bitch, but she's not really a cunt."

(I just cannot spell out the n-word. Part of my programming. I feel deeply uncomfortable at the thought of it).

In all of the above, people think they can use slurs and yet still somehow compliment people. The target is supposed to be flattered! "You're one of the good ones. That word doesn't apply to you."

No, that's really bad. None of it is ok.

Wypipo isn't ok, no matter how many white people give permission. A lot of my gay friends use faggot in various ways to various purposes. They have zero problem with it. Some of my gay friends are deeply uncomfortable around that word, no matter the intent behind it. Once they make that known, we don't use it around that person. We respect their feelings, because we value them as a person. We want them to feel comfortable and included.

So why this abject resistance to respecting the feelings of white people here who don't like it? And there has been a lot of use of that word as little mocking jabs meant to rub people's noses in it. Let's not deny that. It's beneath us.

Why so married to it? Why this ardent, prolific defense of it? White people have said it makes them bad uncomfortable. That alone should be enough to discourage its use. Yet, on a liberal board, here we are.

And let's go with 6. here.

6. This gives amazing amounts of ammunition to the Right. "See? Told ya they hate white people." Let's just get an actual video of Michelle Obama calling someone whitey. Might as well. Because that's pretty much the effect this cutesy little internet speak is going to have if it ever gets out into the white mainstream.

7. Bonus round. This super cool word is being propagated by a guy who told people not to vote for Clinton in the general.

I don't get it. Why be an asshole to allies and potential allies? What's the point? That people find it amusing or worth constantly subjecting people to it speaks to their maturity level. And it doesn't say anything amazingly good.

I'm not offended. I'm irritated. Because the kind of damage this shit does to social justice should be screamingly obvious. That it's not, that it's defended in a liberal space means a lot of people took a very wrong turn somewhere in the evolution of their thinking.

[LostinRed]

80. Nice post

[ms liberty]

86. Well said. n/t

[elehhhhna]

101. Thank you. Well said.

[HDSam]

68. I went

and looked it up.

So I guess my question is, what happened to perfectly fine epithets for wypipo like ‘cracker’, ‘honky’, ‘hillbilly’, or ’peckerwood’, did they lose their punch or something?

We just needed something new?

[betsuni]

73. Those were mostly originally used by whites to describe lower class poor whites.

If I'm not mistaken. Wypipo actually is new.

[shadowmayor]

69. Good Grief

Put me down as a white "boy" who thinks wypipo is just fine. In fact the first time I read it, I laughed out loud. Some folks don't like Chevy trucks and some don't like Fords, and we don't try to take all the trucks off the roads just because some people are bothered by it. Sometimes it seems people get more involved with the conflict and miss the message. Kinda like taking a knee during the National Anthem. If seeing somebody take a knee during the anthem bothers you more than seeing citizens gunned down in our streets, then you probably aren't paying attention or maybe you're part of the problem.

[njhoneybadger]

70. Anybody at anytime can claim anything is divisive it is a subjective term.I believe intent of the

Author should be considered. My personal opinion is calling something divisive here is a cheap shot to control the narrative.

[Alea]

74. When I hear it actually spoken verbally

It's usually a black woman that you can barely understand saying white people, and the people around, including poc, say "quit with the ghetto" talk.

On the internet it's taking on different meanings and one is to poke at white people. All I know is that the people wanting to use a word against another group of people aren't the ones that get to decide if it's offensive or not. White people don't get to decide if the "n" word or "redskins" is offensive, and if poc have a pet word or phonetic spelling of a word for white people, they don't get to decide if it's offensive.

This white bashing agenda going on here is sickening, and combined with the hate permeating out of DU makes me wonder just how out of step DU is with the Democratic Party.

Hate hate hate, echo echo echo echo, and while we were arguing about hate and jabbing white people, the republicans will win another election and we won't even know it until it's over.

[wonkwest]

82. Not necessarily

I read through the thread and understand that you're black.

So what I'm about to relate is 100% true, but speaks to what you're responding to. I'm a little uncomfortable relating this - so please be kind if you hate it - but this is something I have experienced more than once in variations. I'm going to relate one single story as illustrative.

I live in San Francisco. I was loitering around a BART (public transit) station catching Pokemon (don't judge). Two older black women converged on the corner I was on. They seemed to know each other. They started talking amongst themselves. Their particular racial accent was very thick, and I was having a little bit of trouble understanding what they were saying initially.

Ultimately, I caught on. They were speaking a bit of nonsense. "Trump's going to put us all in FEMA camps." "Oh yeah, I heard that. Best mind your cash." That sort of thing. On one hand, I desperately wanted to roll my eyes and probably did. On the other, it spoke to the fear that PoC have of Trump.

However, then a young black man approached. He was loitering at the corner, too. Maybe he was also playing PokemonGo. I have no idea. But he was clearly a UC student. He leaned against the wall on one side, I was on the other. We both listened to these two women. I was just listening. The women's conversation was in that vein for quite awhile. After about three to five minutes, he stood up straight and said, "Why you gotta be ignorant like that?!" He was really angry and put out. I, being white, said nothing and melted entirely into the wall.

But, the poster you're calling a troll may not have untrue experiences. I had to "tune in" to the racial dialect. In passive listening, I wasn't understanding/hearing what the women were saying. It was only once I took an interest that I understood. The young, educated black man was offended by them. He was super unhappy with them.

This isn't a one-off. I've sensed (and you can no doubt speak to this way better than I can) that some black people who are educated judge or look down on those who are less educated or speak in a dialect. So what the poster above you related isn't an untrue thing. I've seen/experienced similar dichotomies. I could not begin to explain the how or why - I, as a white person, do not know the cultural nuances at play here.

But that interaction you called a troll doesn't ring false to me. I've seen similar myself.

If I'm wrong or misinterpreting in some way, please tell me how/why. I will listen.

[ecstatic]

83. My take on what you witnessed

Disclaimer: I'm a life long east coast gal, so it's very possible that the culture is very different there, but I doubt it.

some black people who are educated judge or look down on those who are less educated or speak in a dialect

Interesting guess, but wrong, IMO. If the student injected himself into their conversation, I'm confident that it was for good reason. He was sticking up for someone who they were mocking, probably you or someone else within earshot of the conversation. Or maybe even himself, but I think it was likely someone else. I guess he didn't know that you or whoever else was around didn't fully understand what they were saying anyway.

It would be impractical for most black people to be classist (in the way you suggest) because our families and friends generally consist of all educational and financial backgrounds. Just like white people, our social circle consists of poor, middle class--and depending on where you live, upper middle class, and even top 1% & 2%. And as far as the "racial dialect" aka Ebonics, again we can switch in and out of that as well, and you can't necessarily tie it to income or education.

BTW, thanks for sharing your experience. I like that we can discuss touchy issues like this.

[wonkwest]

84. Thanks for your reply!

I admit, I don't entirely understand. Part of why I think I'm interpreting things through a classist lens is because of experience. My brother has a "working class" job (I don't want to be too specific on a public board). But he has a lot of black co-workers with the same job. They all borderline six figures and live in McMansions in some far-flung suburb in the Midwest. So watching working class and/or poor whites moving up alongside black people who are similarly moving up has been a very interesting experience. I won't lie. I grew up poor, my parents used to be super racist against black people, but somehow they all evolved. (being gay, I've never been on board with the racism I grew up with. Bigotry has always been bigotry. I caught that in my early teens after a really racist upbringing).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying the student possibly spoke up because he perceived I or others were standing there? (I was about three feet away from him).

We're more alike than different. White people have code words for other poorer, more ignorant white people. White trash is just what we tell the media. We have lots of other words for other white people based on education and class. It's all a complicated, supremely subtle code based on pointed connotation.

I'm just very curious why you thought the student responded the way he did. As you said, I may have wrongly interpreted it through a class lens. Why do you think he was so irate with them?

Ebonics is a thing. But white people have accents. I actually put my father on speaker phone during our weekly chats for my boyfriend's or friends' edification and amusement. He has a specific regional dialect I have to interpret and explain. No one believes me that he's inexplicable until I speaker phone that shit. Then they're like, "Oh! Ohhhhh . . . .."

For all the bitching people ever do about Ebonics, yeah, ever heard my super white dad talk? You wouldn't understand that either. I had to actively drop my accent. Somewhere along the line, I made a choice to adopt neutral Midwestern English. My growing up dialect was a thing. And I'm as white as the sun is evil.

But I'm super curious to know your thoughts if you're patient enough to explain.

[Eliot Rosewater]

117. White BASHING? Get the HELL Out of here with that CRAP

[Gothmog]

76. K&R

[doxyluv13]

85. Since you chose not to use a dictionary, I'll help you

Divisive
adjective
1. forming or expressing division or distribution.
2. creating dissension or discord.

Creating discord. Do you deny that pushing this epithet has created discord on DU? QED

[EffieBlack]

98. Thanks for the response. But you really believe "discord" should be verboten on DU?

The Oxford Dictionary defines “Discord” as “disagreement between people.”

Are you saying that the term “Wypipo” is a terrible thing because people disagree about it? Is everything that people disagree with verboten on DU.

Forbidding discussion on anything that people disagree with would certainly should streamline this board. We’d be left with little more than puppy videos.

No - that won’t work, either. We’d still have to deal with all of the discord between the puppy people and the kitten people ...

Now, how about answering my other questions?

1. Who does it divide and what does that division look like/mean?

2. If the term "Wypipo" causes a divide, what was the layout of views about race, racism, discrimination, privilege before the word turned up on DU a couple of weeks ago? Were the people who are now divided as set forth in the response to Question 1 all on the same side of these issues with no disagreements or dissent between them but now are different sides because someone began discussing the word on DU?

3. If you consider yourself to be an ally in the fight for racial justice, has the fact that a stranger whom you don't know and will likely never meet wrote the term "Wypipo" on an anonymous online discussion board changed your opinion, perspective or behavior vis a vis racial justice?

4. If your answer to Question 3 is yes, please explain how your opinion, perspective or behavior vis a vis racial justice has changed in the past couple of weeks? For example, did the word "Wypipo" make you less likely to continue fighting for racial justice?

[doxyluv13]

139. Who said anything about "forbidden"?

The point is that causing discord is divisive by definition.

Remember this from your OP?

"What exactly is "divisive" about the term "Wypipo?"

Or have you been reposting you gotcha questions so much you forgot?

IMHO you can cause as much discord on DU as the rules allow. Just admit you are doing it.

[Orsino]

87. It's a slur, and discourages some people who might be inclined to alliance.

Depending on how it's used, of course. A user is not going to quite get the engagement that would otherwise have been accomplished. That's nothing new; DU is just heavily white and the effect therefore pronounced.

The use hasn't changed my views on justice; it just tells me who to be wary of conversing with. Often it helps add emotional impact to tales of white supremacy.

The term has its place, but as with other racially-charged words, it ought to be deployed with care if the object really is engagement. However, I think it has value in sheer venting about common experience, and so I am not particularly inclined toward banning it. "Divisive" it is, but that's not all it is.

[Eliot Rosewater]

118. Oh my god this reminds me of you better give me a reason

I am so FURIOUS at what you just said that I will have to take a break now

[cyclonefence]

88. This shiksa is fine

with whatever definition people want to attach to it.

[Dorian Gray]

89. Who cares?

Everybody really is uber sensitive about everything other people say.

I can disagree and state why it's rude. Is Wypipo rude? Sure. Is it divisive? Only because it hurts people's feelings, apparently.

I don't like to propensity toward "othering" people. Don't be an asshole. If you are an asshole expect pushback.

[betsuni]

90. Comes down to: if you're walking down the street and someone yells

"Hey, asshole!" do you turn around expecting to see someone you know? Only if you know people who think you're an asshole. If a person is offended by the word wypipo, same thing.

[Heidi]

91. :thumbsup:

[EffieBlack]

96. And if you're walking down the street and hear someone say "Wypipo" you might not like it but that's

pretty much the end of it.

I doubt that anyone’s reaction would be a pounding heart, spinning brain, shortness of breath, the shakes, dry mouth and other painful immediate physical and emotional changes and the abject terror that we are in imminent peril of bodily harm that occur to black folk when WE hear the word “nigger” while walking down the street.

[Me.]

92. K

[Baitball Blogger]

93. I haven't been following these wypipo threads too closely because of time

constraints, so I may be going on a tangent. But, from my personal view:

For forty of my <mumble> years, I was very much entrenched in mostly white environments and I can definitely see why minorities would group Caucasians into a wypipo category. Seriously people. Do you think we would be where we are today if minorities felt that they could count on a vocal number of white people who understand their problems and will have their backs? Nothing in what I have seen in college and out of college suggests that Anglo-leaning cultures understand or care about offering a helping hand. No matter who they are. Well, except for a large percentage of those who are Liberals, but certainly not all.

The response from most of the people in Caucasian groups is silence or they side with the white people who respond to us with admonishment for voicing our opinions. "Who are you?" That's the kind of reaction we get when we stand up and point out facts that question their decisions or decision making process. All the "decent" white people look at us like we're the cautionary tale. This is what will happen to them too, if they agree with us in public venues. So they remain silent and their silence legitimizes whatever aggressive behavior is directed at us.

Jesus. I have had a woman, who I thought was a friend, look uncomfortable when she saw me coming her way on a sidewalk. She was with two other white women and she avoided looking in my direction. I didn't even hear a friendly greeting as they walked passed by. I couldn't have been more than twenty feet away, since I gave them space because I was walking the dog. But this was in an open area where there was nothing taller than grass to block the view. Compare that when the next time we crossed paths when she was alone. Open smile and ready to talk, but for me, it was too late.

For me, all these little collisions have left a large scar where all the nerves and feelings have been stripped. You just can't be subjected to this kind of behavior and leave unchanged. So, in sum, "wypipo" definitely expresses a perspective that is valid. We are being excluded out of certain social circles, especially the circles where decisions are being made that affect our personal lives. Our worlds are split or divided where they count the most. Division exists, it's a reality and it didn't happen by our choice. So, why are you blaming black Americans for finding a term that communicates what they see? Asking them to be silent because it makes white people uncomfortable is just as bad as shutting down minority opinions before an election because you don't want to turn off the racist Southern Democratic votes. Yes, that happened.

I agree with those who say that it will get worse, before it gets better. How can I put it? If you are opposed to the term, maybe you don't see the problem from a minority point of view?

[EffieBlack]

97. GREAT post

[DonCoquixote]

104. BB

make this response it;'s own OP please

[Baitball Blogger]

109. Wow. Thank you, I will.

[philly_bob]

105. In spoken language, how does WYPIPO work?

Like, "WYPIPO is a term used to refer to a subset of White People who are clueless on race." (That's my attempt at a definition.)

In speech, how do you distinguish between the two?

Here's my attempt at reading that sentence:
https://vocaroo.com/i/s1VuBsX8aLyi

Most people will not "hear" the difference between WYPIPO and White People.

Feel free to offer your own reading. (Vocaroo.com is free.)

The fact that in spoken language WYPIPO and White People sound the same makes it problematic because advocates of WYPIPO argue that it is essential to the definition that WYPIPO does not apply to all White People.

I have said lots of thing about Trump-supporting "Deplorables" (WYPIPO) that I would not want to say about White People in general.

[EffieBlack]

106. Oh, good Lord

[fescuerescue]

107. That's the way that dog whistle language works

A person that embraces this sort of thing. They can tell the difference.

[philly_bob]

108. Illuminating response, FR

Here's Wikipedia on Dog Whistle Politics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics

Classic example was in the American South, "Segregation Forever" was replaced with "States Rights."

Will have to think about whether "Dog Whistle" encoding applies in this case. If WYPIPO becomes a part of American political dialogue -- and I hope it doesn't -- who will be using it, and will it be used in speechmaking?

[EffieBlack]

112. You apparently don't understand what "dog whistle" is

It's not a dog whistle when the people saying it say it to you, explain to you what it is, and engage you in endless debates about the what it means.

[philly_bob]

129. You still haven't responded to the question

on the use of WYPIPO in spoken language -- except for an intellectually dishonest "Oh My Lord" -- and instead you question my understanding of "Dog Whistle Politics," which someone else brought up.

Effie. you dodge the hard questions, like the one I asked. Is WYPIPO intended for use in speech? If so, how does it distinguish between "White People" and WYPIPO. And if that distinction is not apparent in spoken language, doesn't the justification for WYPIPO disappear? Or is it just an online affectation, used in DU and the Root and nowhere else.

I persevere in my questions because a) I never heard the term until three weeks ago -- what the hell does it mean? (I know you THINK you've already explained it) and b) the more I see it in use, I fear WYPIPO has the potential to become a divisive racial slur, not a harmless acronym.

[EffieBlack]

130. I don't intend to answer your question on demand

If you're really interested in the etymology of the term, I suggest you do some research on it, starting with the Google. There are articles all over the internet about it that should answer any question you have about the word.

And if you've never heard the term until three weeks ago - even though it's been openly used for several years now - your research should help you expand your horizons and expose you to information and perspectives that you're currently not familiar with.

[melman]

132. And yet you demand answers from everyone else

[EffieBlack]

134. Actually I don't. But nice of you to pop in to try to stir things up.

I ask questions. If people want to answer them, that's great.

Now, I DO hold their feet to the fire if people deign to answer and then give me some bullshit.

But I'm not anyone's explainer and have not engaged directly with that particular poster in any way that should give him reason to think that I owe you lessons on the history and usage of language, just because he demanded that I tell him. If anyone wants to know the etymology of the word "Wypipo," they can do some homework and look it up. If that's too much for them, it's clear they're not really interested in an answer but just want to disrupt and I don't play those kinds of games with anyone.

Take that as you wish.

[tonedevil]

135. At the risk of whitesplaining...

since you are asking how the term would be used in speech I'm going to assume you have never heard anyone use it before. Mostly when I have heard it used, and by the way I have heard this used for at least three years, it is usually preceded by a full face palm and is then expressed as an anguished cry like when you are watching your dog eat cat shit after you just told him not to. Again, because you have not heard it before I have to assume you don't spend much time around black people. I'm an old white guy, but I do wind up spending a fair amount of time with black people due to my musical tastes. The inexplicable crazy dimwittery of a lot of white people is the subject of a lot of mocking talk. When black people have so much societal power that people with white names don't get hired and white people are the subject of stop and frisk the the concern about wypipo becoming a racial slur may be justified.

[MicaelS]

110. I am a 60 yr old cis white man, and I think...

It is funny as hell, but that is just me.

I find it funny, because part of it applies to me, in that I wear shorts nearly year round. Being "weight challenged" I find the extra insulation requires extra cooling.

It is interesting how black speech toward whites has evolved over the years. I remember the days of "honky" back during the 60s/70s. With pale white skin and flaming red hair, I was called "red-headed peckerwood", or just peckerwood. It never really offended me, because I loved Richard Pryor and Red Foxx, and had all their albums. I miss Richard Pryor, and still think of him as the funniest comic of all time.

All in all, I think I would rather be called wypipo than honky.

BUT, having said all that, just how many more threads do you plan to start on this topic?

[EffieBlack]

111. Thanks

I'm not sure how many more threads I'll start on the topic - but as long as people keep contributing to the conversation with interesting posts like yours, I may just keep doing them.

[Eliot Rosewater]

119. I hope there are 200 more if that is what it takes to get the point across

[samnsara]

128. the only place i have heard read seen that word in print is on DU....so what gives?

[EffieBlack]

131. Google it

[philly_bob]

138. Or better yet, Twitter it.

https://twitter.com/search?q=wypipo&src=typd
(You may need a Twitter account to access this.)

As I read it, WYPIPO grew out of online conversation among black social-media participants -- an insiders' shorthand expression of exasperation with the peculiarities and quirks of the dominant white culture. Somewhat like the jokes Black comedians make on the same subject. Often the use is quite funny. Sometimes poignant, with workplace and schoolroom slights. And always with the history of 400 years of racism behind it. There's real pain, but it's a little like a bar table discussion among black college students and young black professionals.

The closest analogy I can think of is the meme that presents silly concerns of privileged people as "FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS." (Google it.)

I think the problem with the appearance of WYPIPO on DU is that it doesn't transfer well to a racially diverse audience. WYPIPO's advocates presented it a little too seriously, as yet another required classroom assignment on White Privilege, not as the wry piece of humor (with a history) that it is.

And the advocates have been a little quick to accuse those who disagree on one point or another as being unconscious racists/WYPIPO -- a classic bullying tactic.

Anyway, I think those who wish to use the phrase WYPIPO on DU should be aware of the context -- the African American group or General Discussion.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

133. As a white, older (67) male

it is my belief people offended by this are over reacting. Why does it bother people so much to admit there are LOTS of clueless white people with NO IDEA on what it's like to be a minority in this country? As far as I'm concerned the more videos we see of white people losing their shit and being demonstrably racist the better. We cannot legislate racism or prejudice or fear even, out of existence. But we can expose them to the light and recognize racism is for the most part something learned, prejudice is ignorance and fear is what drives hate............

[betsuni]

140. K&R

[Captain Stern]

141. I don't think the term is divisive.

I don't think any term can be divisive, however a term can expose divides

The term 'Whypipo' is doing that here.

I don't really see why that's a bad thing. There's absolutely no reason we can't disagree about things, discuss those things, and still all be in the big tent.

If every single subject, or term, was banned here that troubled anyone, this place would get real boring...real fast.

[ck4829]

142. And I ask what's wrong with divisiveness? We SHOULD divide white people in general against wypipo

We can all work to make it so that simply being white does not make one a wypipo, this label is not some magical, divine, biological, or natural thing... We can work deconstruct and reconstruct it. Here. Today.

Being white does not automatically make you a wypipo.

You call 911 because you simply see a black person? You're a wypipo.

You turn "Press 1 for English" into something that demands revolution? You're a wypipo.

I'm a white guy against wypipo.

We need to stop being concerned about being "divided" or at least get more concerned about what's on the other side of that division, because frankly, the right wing's getting kind of scary.

[ehrnst]

144. White fragility is very much in force, even on DU.(nt)