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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRomney's Tax Returns - What if it's the Rope-A-Dope strategy?
What if he's taking a page out of Obama's playbook and trying to get all of the surrogates (maybe even Obama himself) out on a limb regarding the tax returns - just like Obama did with his birth certificate - and then he unloads all the documents once everybody's on record and the echo chamber is at a fever pitch. And there's no "there" there.
Obama did this with his birth certificate and made everybody in that particular echo chamber look like a fucking moron.
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Evergreen Emerald
(13,096 posts)that is why throughout the years he complained that his opponents have not provided their spouse's returns.
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)What doesn't Harry reveal this "person" who apparently is so close to Mitt that he knows whether or not he paid taxes.
Then maybe you can all get the answers to your questions instead of spending all this time on "what ifs". Me thinks mittens is laughing his ass off
Sorry I am just getting tired of this and want to talk about real issues
lunatica
(53,410 posts)
It didn't take you long to out yourself by saying "..the answers you want..." I take it you don't want the answers.
You got me, I am a bank robber.... what shall I do word is out
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)and live by your quote. You sound like a troll
lunatica
(53,410 posts)You know, like how you hate Obama and stuff because the bank bailout happened during Bush's last days in office.
teamster633
(2,032 posts)If you want to talk about "real" issues I think you know where to go. In fact, you already spend 99% of your time there anyway, don't you?
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Sorry I am just getting tired of this and want to talk about real issues"
...about taxes.
by Jacoby Jonze
<...>
Now this is the guy that called the Bain attacks false simply because Romney claimed that no matter what the SEC papers said, that he left in 1999. As more and more proof came to contradict the Romney claims Mr. Kessler stood firm - but recently he relented and said it is a grey area that neither side could prove or disprove given the current information available (though I don't believe he went back to change his Pinocchio's awarded).
While we hated him for his complete inability to be rational and look at the facts in the Bain case, I believe a lot of that came from the position that he first raised the potential for Romney criminality if he did sign off on the SEC papers and didn't work there. So he sort of really painted himself into a corner and either had to stick to his guns in trusting the Romney campaign or would be calling Romney a liar and criminal. But this episode will also give him credibility with the true undecideds and indies. Which brings me to his findings in the "Stretch ad" -
You can read his deconstruction of the ad here - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/a-tough-new-obama-ad-that----surprise----is-accurate/2012/08/02/gJQAuigQSX_blog.html
But the jist of it is that Romney by failing to release specifics in his policy ideas leaves himself open to interpretation and given that Kessler holds the non-partisan Tax Policy Center is really high regard (consists of serious tax policy folks from both sides of the political spectrum with veterans of Dem and GOP administrations involved) until Romney Camp releases more details (which they refused when Kessler requested more) to counter the findings, the Tax Policy Center paper will be accepted as fact on this matter.
This ad is tough, but we cannot fault the accuracy of its key points. To some extent, the Romney campaign has been hoist with its own petard by refusing to provide sufficient detail that shows how the numbers add up in Romney’s tax and budget plans. So we are left with the judgment of a respected and independent third party.
We hold campaign ads to a high standard, particularly attack ads. If Romney releases the missing details, and a new analysis finds that Romney can meet the stated goals of his tax plan, then we can certainly revisit this analysis. But, until then, for the first time in this frequently nasty campaign, we award a rare Geppetto Checkmark for a campaign ad.
What is the Geppetto Checkmark?
- more -
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/03/1116417/-OFA-s-Stretch-Ad-gets-rare-Geppetto-Checkmark-from-WaPo
New Obama ad: 'Romney's tax plan? He pays less. You pay more.'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021061091
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)this I can discuss. Not what ifs or he said she said.
Well said
lunatica
(53,410 posts)You're not very good at this.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)He has refused to do so; arrogantly stating he doesn't owe an explanation. The American people CHOOSE the president, we are the employers and right now, Romney is in the middle of a long interview process. He's failing miserably by portraying himself as above reproach.
BTW - what are the real issues to you?
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)Jobs, deficiet, getting out of wars we don't belong in. Issues in the middle east.
Taxes, really is that all we have?
what are your issues?
Solomon
(12,648 posts)released his tax returns if you think its such a non-issue.
I suspect he has released his tax returns at some point in his life. He can't be that stupid. Maybe I am giving him too much credit, but this reminds me of the birth certificate thing. So much talk and energy was put into it and in the end they were wrong. I think in the end Romney will release his taxes to the public and it will be nothing. All this time and energy for what? That is the only point I am trying to make.
Going back to robbing banks
madmom
(9,681 posts)besides Obama did show his birth certificate and it was on his web site,before the birther stuff started,
so there is no comparison.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)to provide evidence to support your claim.
NEVER!
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)There are several situations in ones life that requires we show our tax returns. I just assumed at some point in his life he had to show them. With that being said, if he never showed his taxes to anyone then how does "someone" know he paid no taxes?
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)equivocations.
Romney has NEVER released his tax returns in aggregate while running for public office. That said, of course his accountants and others close to him might be privy to his returns.
But if you are saying that he has released his returns while running for public office, then the challenge is on you to document it. Otherwise, the 'real issue' is still what Mitt is hiding and why, your attempts to change the subject notwithstanding.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)Also, his foreign policy advisors.
cheezmaka
(785 posts)because it's more of a "character" issue. Romney is not holding himself accountable to the American people like all the other Presidential candidates. Whether he paid his fair share of taxes or not, he is portraying a serious "double standard". If Romney lacks the character of someone "fair" enough to represent the "will of the people" then he will not be taken seriously on ANY other "issue"...
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Too bad for you and your pal Mitt it won't go away.
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)I could use a few bucks. However; I'll wait for the debates and see how pally me and mitt are. I will get back to you
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Unless you come back as a Zombie, yet again.
mazzarro
(3,450 posts)Yeah - at the expense of his reputation taking a beating for his recalcitrant refusal to release the basic information other presidential candidates have previously release without delay? You sure are a wise voter!
Marr
(20,317 posts)I hope they don't pay you, because you're not worth it.
emilyg
(22,742 posts)TeamPooka
(25,577 posts)the democrats would get more ammunition by going through his tax returns.
He's right and I can't wait to see.
Historic NY
(40,102 posts)his rope-a-dope becomes little hope. The crescendo is going to keep rising as the curtains goes up on their convention in 3 weeks.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)What if he's taking a page out of Obama's playbook and trying to get all of the surrogates (maybe even Obama himself) out on a limb regarding the tax returns - just like Obama did with his birth certificate - and then he unloads all the documents once everybody's on record and the echo chamber is at a fever pitch. And there's no "there" there.
...the birth certificate/tax return analogy is a false equivalency. More important, if this Mitt's strategy, then he's more incompetent and inept than the missteps of the last month demonstrates.
He's creating the impression that he has something to hide, stating that releasing his returns would be "damaging," and then at the last minute, after most Americans are convinced he's either a liar and/or a tax cheat, he's going to say "gotcha"?
Romney campaign "is hoping the waters will recede, and looking for a safe mountaintop"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021066830
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)I don't think he'd get a lot of laughs from the voters.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)They know releasing them is more harmful than not releasing them.
Amonester
(11,541 posts)I boggles the mind trying to imagine how much MORE harmful releasing them would be!
http://www.barackobama.com
(Happy Birthday Barack!) 
chowder66
(12,392 posts)if he is purposely misleading the american people then he is diverting attention from the big issues. It is irresponsible.
That is not a game we can afford to play when the country is hurting and needs jobs.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Your hypothesis is based on Romney having nothing to hide. Perhaps there is a remote possibility this is true, but highly unlikely; Reid would not be going after him hard unless there's some really nasty stuff in Romney's returns. Doing so would be political suicide.
babylonsister
(172,784 posts)I agree. I don't think the President felt he needed to prove he's a citizen; he had too much faith in too many people.
stopbush
(24,850 posts)watching your poll numbers drop - disastrously in the swing states - just to pull an "I told you so" AFTER you've been trashed at your own hand,
Besides, this whole stonewalling on his tax returns has been Romney's MO for decades. If his plan was to hold his cards and play them at an opportune time as an election ploy, then why didn't he do it when he ran against Teddy?
quinnox
(20,600 posts)or is paying attention to it anyhow. Taxes are a boring subject that most people find extremely dull. It's not going to have any real effect on the election either way IMHO. The debates will be important I think, and then we can start to hear about issues that actually matter.
Let's start the debates and talk about the actual issues
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)lax regulations on investment banks, and offshore tax avoidance.
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)I am with you. I lost my job because of out sourcing. I was pissed when Obama gave BofA a bailout and could have put a stipulation on it that the money be used in this country. Instead the bank invested in China and India. The bank did nothing for those of us in the USA.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)George W. Bush signed TARP into law, Skippy.
You're angry at Mr. Obama because of something that happened three fucking months before he was sworn into office?
Go away, you fool no one here.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)I'm not sure how you can blame him for that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_america#Federal_Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program_.28TARP.29
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)and Obama was our president
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)You might have lived it but you need to check your facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_america#Federal_Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program_.28TARP.29
Federal Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP)
Bank of America received $20 billion in the federal bailout from the U.S. government through the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) on January 16, 2009, along with a guarantee of $118 billion in potential losses at the company.[55] This was in addition to the $25 billion given to them in the Fall of 2008 through TARP.
Information does not fit narrative
**PURGING INFORMATION**
It's impossible to have a meaningful conversation with someone who simply denies information they don't like.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)You are either delusional or are being deliberately obtuse, you pick.
catbyte
(39,224 posts)Why is it that the ONLY CONSISTENT principle Romey has fought for is the secrecy of his tax returns? That is weird. That is odd. That is suspicious. He is willing to throw any position out the window for political expediency except this one. And you think there is "no there there"? LOL We'll see who's "laughing their ass off" come November7.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=287829&sub=trans
Thanks, Skinner, for putting a red shirt on inthemiddle2.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)People that vote Republican, and they aren't very happy about Mitt either paying less than they do, or is paying no income taxes at all.
Lots of people are paying attention, there is massive traction out there on this subject, no matter how many people wish it would just go away.
Even here, it would seem, we have people wishing Democrats would stop hammering Mitt on this tax problem.
Tanuki
(16,481 posts)so he couldn't possibly be "taking a page from Obama's playbook" on this. (Btw, I don't agree that Obama was withholding his birth certificate...on the contrary, he had released it many times). Romney apparently thought that the same stonewalling that worked in his campaigns in MA would work in the larger arena. He is scared mitless to release his returns, because he knows nobody will vote for him when they see what a rotten , selfish SOB with no concern for the well-being of his country he really is.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)is that Romney didn't pay any taxes for 10 years. That's not a good place to be.
I personally think it's true as well. It wouldn't surprise me, coming from someone who claims to always pay the minimum possible.
sofa king
(10,857 posts)Romney is taking severe damage over this, and has been taking severe damage over it for several weeks, long enough for everyone who is going to notice to have already seen it. There is virtually nothing in Mitt's records which can undo the damage that has already been done.
Mitt's campaign has obviously not been run all that well up to this point, but they must have weighed out the problem and decided that the damage from the cover-up will be less than the damage from the crime (and it pretty much has to be a crime, because Mitt is risking his last shot at the White House by stonewalling).
Furthermore, Romney's own credibility is at near-zero. Pulling a rabbit out of the hat at this point simply wouldn't be believed by a majority of people who have watched Mitt get caught lying more times than my doormat.
The Romney camp's only recourse now is to fall back on Shrub-like obfuscation, distraction, and opacity, hoping to run out the clock before the actual facts can be discerned. That worked... before the American people were gnawed on the ass by it for eight years.
Enrique
(27,461 posts)he even threw his wife and her horse under the bus when people were making fun of it.
He is only taking this beating because he is afraid of a bigger beating if he releases them.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)... to avoid releasing his returns. While demanding others release theirs. And, as Rachel's piece pointed out, Romney has a history of hiding his official documents and lying about what's in them, like when he told everyone he had claimed Massachusetts as his primary residence so he could run for governor, but actually had not.
I do think the "bombshell" he's hiding could simply be an embarrassingly low effective tax rate. Although he might also have sought amnesty over Swiss accounts.
But I think the history indicates he's obsessed with this issue -- he's willing to look bad to avoid giving in, and willing to flatly lie, and I don't think it's coming from anything as simple as a sense of "privacy."
It goes to a core issue though -- Romney believes he is a member of a class of Americans -- the extremely rich -- who simply don't have to play by the same rules as everyone else. Yet he's happy to tell us how he will change the rules for everyone else, specifically, to favor people like him over those with less.
There's something intensely nasty hiding back there though. He's a little boy saying he hasn't seen the cat, but holding a bloody sack behind his back. He's guilty, and frightened and furious, to the point where he's in denial of reality -- the reality that this issue will not go away this time, that he's actually going to have to answer to "those people."
I thought about rope-a-dope too, but he's already past that point. He already looks so squirrely and scared and angry that he looks un - Presidential. Nixonian. Crazy.
tridim
(45,358 posts)MjolnirTime
(1,800 posts)He's a true blue cheat.
Scratchee
(10 posts)Or are they in on it too?
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)it's already caused way too much trouble that cannot be fixed by a clean tax return.
No matter how this turns out Rmoney camp loses on this and Obama is roses.
randome
(34,845 posts)
DonCoquixote
(13,973 posts)We cannot deny that taxes are a part of this election. We know Mitt wants to tax the poor and middle class, so that the rich can get even MORE tax cuts. If Mitt is a tax cheat, then he needs to be focused on, because we know, even if he paid his taxes, he did not pay as much of his income as John and Jane Q. Public.
NRaleighLiberal
(61,877 posts)The right wing doesn't care if something is true or false - they realize that you just saturate people with it and over time it becomes part of the belief system (ie Obama is a Muslim, Saddam had WMD). I don't care what RMoney's returns show - it is a message about being secretive, about hiding something - a great meme that if the left had as big a megaphone as the right, would get traction even faster and erode any remaining confidence in RMoney in sufficient numbers to cost him the election.
tsuki
(11,994 posts)Mormon Church than the IRS.
Never thought about that, great point. Now that makes sense
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Never thought about that, great point. Now that makes sense"
...you only want to talk about it if it's about the Mormon church.
Suddenly, it's "BINGO"?
lunatica
(53,410 posts)LOL!
now I understand why he is not showing his taxes. It has nothing to do with him not paying taxes, but rather his donations to the Mormon. Repubs can't handle the mormon church never mind donating millions (an assumption) to them. They would never show up to vote.
capice?
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"It has nothing to do with him not paying taxes, but rather his donations to the Mormon."
...donations are not a secret. Still, you're talking about the OP issue.
"capice?"
inthemiddle2
(59 posts)because you responded to my post.
capice
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"I was being polite because you responded to my post. "
...the discussion has become confusing for you. Your engaging on the issue was not because someone "responded" to your post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1072398
Brother Buzz
(40,157 posts)David Zephyr
(22,785 posts)So ugly, that he has to hide it. He can't release his taxes.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)This goes back many years. He has always stonewalled on his taxes. He won't release them because they are so politically damaging.
If they weren't he could end this now and get out of this downward spiral he is in. If he releases his returns tomorrow and he paid 30% tax, he will have already lost.
There is a difference between the birth certificate and the taxes. Obama showed a version early, and it was never really in question. It was only conspiracy yahoos who thought otherwise. THis is a presidential candidate refusing to reveal his tax history, yet running on a platform of cutting taxes. We need to see where he is coming from.
applegrove
(132,698 posts)the time he ran against Kennedy...probably earlier. He would have known he had to release tax returns. I also notice that each time the controversy has errupted in the last month it is always led my some Republican releasing information or reacting or such.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"He would have known he had to release tax returns. I also notice that each time the controversy has errupted in the last month it is always led my some Republican releasing information or reacting or such."
You mean, the Obama campaign and Democratic ads and Reid's comments have nothing to do with it?
There are some serious attempts to try to deflect on this issue. Why?
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)by the Obama campaign in '08. Repubs are used to dishing the dirt but they don't expect to receive it.
GoCubsGo
(34,968 posts)A lie that's repeated enough becomes the truth? I'm not saying that the accusations regarding his taxes are a lie. I'm saying that, regardless, the accusation has been out long enough that even if he does put out his taxes, and nothing is there, a lot of people won't believe it. It's funny you bring up Obama's birth certificate. He has shown it numerous times, including that last big showing, and people STILL claim he was born in Kenya. Something like 68% entire GOP STILL thinks he is foreign-born. Why would the Romney campaign risk something like that happening here? Especially when his own party dislikes him so much that they are looking for any excuse they can to stay home in November. I know his campaign committee is damn stupid, but they aren't THAT stupid.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)He has NEVER released tax returns.
He is hiding something.
Many somethings.
Marr
(20,317 posts)incredibly unlikely.
He's been refusing to release this information for at least that long, even when it would've taken a lot of pressure off to do so (assuming the tax returns contained nothing scandalous, of course).
It just doesn't make any sense for him to have refused to release these documents all this time if there was nothing damaging in them.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)The whole bullshit birther thing didn't pick up steam with the wingnuts until AFTER he was already in office. So Obama could afford to ignore the issue.
Rmoney can't. No candidate in their right mind is going to allow one single negative issue to dominate their campaign for weeks (if not months) if there was an easy resolution. Rmoney has made the conscience decision that whatever is in his tax records is more politically damaging than not revealing them is. That means there must be some pretty serious shit there.
Historic NY
(40,102 posts)Harry Reid is the "boxer" and he is fresh to the match.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)I find it difficult to believe a guy who's been planning to run for president for a decade and is really good at fucking around with money would allow damaging stuff to appear on his recent tax returns.
The closer to the election he releases them (if there's nothing significant there), the closer to the election his critics look dumb and, perhaps more importantly, the less time the opposition has to pour through them and figure out if they're accurate.
Betty Jo
(66 posts)The there is the what.The what is strange words like "Hercules II LLC".That is the name of the investment entity that is Romney/Bain.It partially owns HCA.HCA is "Hospital Corporation of America "That is hundreds of hospitals in America, and in England.Think about what that means.There are a lot of other strange words in the tax returns.Seek and ye shall find.Mitty and Annie hope you won't.There life depends on it.
Scratchee
(10 posts)I think a lot of people are forgetting that these tax returns are documents filed with the federal government. It's unlikely they contain evidence of an overt crime.
It's interesting to hear how various news outlets report Reid's recent accusation. Some say that Romney "didn't pay any taxes." Others say--incorrectly, in my opinion--that Romney "didn't pay his taxes." The latter implies that Romney owed taxes but didn't pay them, while the former, which I strongly suspect is the actual claim made by the unknown caller, implies that Romney structured his income in such a way that he owed no taxes. Such a structuring would be politically embarrassing and potentially very damaging, but it's a very different matter from actually cheating on his taxes. Again, these documents were filed with and reviewed by the IRS.
Same goes for Reid's claim that Romney had money "hidden" in the Caymans and elsewhere. How hidden can it possibly be if we learn about it from a document filed with the government?
DearAbby
(12,461 posts)By Romney responding to Reid as he had, proves he is guilty as charged. If Romney were innocent, he would have gladly released the tax returns to totally humiliate Democratic leader. The Teabaggers would be singing his praises in church this Sunday..Carving his likeness on Mount Rushmore. They would treat Romney as a GOD...Even Romney knows this...but he is guilty as charged, that is why he can never release his tax returns.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Romney has been reluctant to release his returns long before he even ran for President.