I don't give a rat's a$$ if this violates Godwin's Law or not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

[FBaggins]

1. Godwin's law exists for a reason

Comparisons to Hitler always make the speaker look stupid... and more than hint that you can’t be faaaar from Hitler and still be entirely unacceptable.

Obviously different in this case are the rest of the sentences/ like the ones that end with “... and killed them by the millions “

[Fullduplexxx]

3. Godwin himself cancelled Godwin's law for Trump

[Lucky Luciano]

9. Nazis were still Nazis before kristallnacht. nt

[madinmaryland]

27. The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. Period.

Of course tRump thinks Nazis are good people.

[forgotmylogin]

11. I believe Godwin's Law doesn't necessarily apply here.

From KnowYourMeme.com:

Godwin's Law is an internet adage that is derived from one of the earliest bits of Usenet wisdoms, which posits that "if you mention Adolf Hitler or Nazis within a discussion thread, you've automatically ended whatever discussion you were taking part in."

I believe Godwin's Law is invoked when someone invokes Hitler or Nazism in a topic that shouldn't be related to Hitler at all. If someone invokes the Nazis in a discussion about the latest Star Wars movie, they lose and the thread is considered over and off-the-rails. It's the indicator the discussion has gone on too long and gone too far afield with the assumption that any internet forum discussion that goes on far too long will end up being about Hitler somehow.

Of course, this doesn't apply when actually discussing World War II or fascism; it's intended to give Moderators a definite kill switch to stop your scrapbooking message board from devolving into screaming matches about the Holocaust.

[Pacifist Patriot]

39. This

[Lars39]

17. The creator of Godwin's law:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/08/14/the-creator-of-godwins-law-explains-why-some-nazi-comparisons-dont-break-his-famous-internet-rule/?utm_term=.319d7dc0a0bc

[FBaggins]

19. Like the law of gravity...

It was discovered, not invented.

[GusBob]

30. And before he killed millions, what law should we apply?

Before you use an absolute phrase like "always make (you ) look stupid", you should educate yourself.

Hitler didn't rise in a vacuum and he didn't start killing people until he had absolute power.

Some reading suggestions for you:

1. "They thought they were free" by Milton Mayer
2. "The third reich at war" by Richard Evans

Every other page of these books has parallels to Trumpism. It will shock you.

Lastly a great well researched and prescient essay in the 4/30/18 New Yorker:
" What Hitler learned from America" by Alex Ross

Mr Ross is a fantastic writer and a very intelligent guy. By your rule because he compares Hitler to Trump, he is stupid.

It could be argued: what difference does it make if the racists kill us by taking away our health care, let cops gun down innocent unarmed folks, allow mass carnage gun deaths, puerto ricans left to die in hurricanes.....just a different form of the gas chamber

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. Germany's elites thought they could control Hitler or use him to achieve their ends.

Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2018, 12:36 PM - Edit history (1)

[eppur_se_muova]

49. Well, that just fleshes out the analogy a little more, doesn't it ?

OK, maybe not -- not clear if Repugs think they can control 45 since they haven't shown any inclination to try.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. They thought he was a harmless clown.

Sound familiar.

[populistdriven]

58. Pre WWII not many realized that being slightly prejudiced could lead eventually to horrible things

So now we have Trumpism and not only do most of US not believe it will lead to bad horrible unimaginable inhuman things but his core supporters see calling a bigot a bigot as a ploy to taking something away from them.

Yea this won't end well if it keeps up.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. In the books I read the mild anti-semitism

In the books I read the casual anti-semitism that permeated the State Department blinded them to the evil Hitler portended.

[Mc Mike]

54. They were successful. Not one of them suffered from the 'absolute dictator'.

Last edited Sun Jun 17, 2018, 09:07 AM - Edit history (1)

[populistdriven]

56. +101000

[LanternWaste]

42. Goodwin's Meme is no different except there are no cats

All memes exists for a reason. Goodwin's Meme is no different except there are no cats.

Popular acceptance of a meme taking a higher role than critical thought seems a silly form of self-censorship for no other reason than self-censorship.

From my chair, that's what makes the speaker look stupid.

[Time for change]

52. It's not a law, it's just an opinion

The "law" presupposes that there can never be legitimate comparisons between Nazis and other people. Yet history, prior to and after the Nazis, is full of examples of groups that started off slowly and ended up committing terrible atrocities.

Comparisons with the Nazis make people look stupid only when they're used inappropriately.

I have little doubt that if Trump is able to acquire comparable power to Hitler he will have no compunction about using that power in a similar manner.

[treestar]

60. Do we have to let it get that far first?

Obviously we are attempting to identify the time before all that happens, the time of the events that lead up to it, so we can head it off. It is what Hitler did and said before all that which concerns us.

[Pope George Ringo II]

2. If the Nazi regime simply must be invoked

Quisling is the most appropriate comparison, albeit still imperfect.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

4. This looks entirely accurate and appropriate to me. Thank you, DemocratSinceBirth! n/t

[Thomas Hurt]

5. Nazis and Hitler were specific to an era and place....

Trump is a modern day American fascist.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

[erronis]

14. Thank you for that piece on Italy and the fall of Mussolini, but not the fascists.

Reminds me of a friend who was a young boy in Sicily when the Americans landed to start moving up the peninsula.

One of the GIs threw out some candy to the swarming children and my friend got one or more pieces. He didn't think about it any more until he emigrated to the US and became a teacher at a university. One day he went to a local soda counter (remember those?) and decided to order a root beer. As soon as he tasted it his memory of that day in Sicily came flooding back.

[Thomas Hurt]

22. You didn't read the whole essay...

But in spite of this fuzziness, I think it is possible to outline a list of features that are typical of what I would like to call Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism. These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.

1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages—in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia.

This new culture had to be syncretistic. Syncretism is not only, as the dictionary says, “the combination of different forms of belief or practice”; such a combination must tolerate contradictions. Each of the original messages contains a sliver of wisdom, and whenever they seem to say different or incompatible things it is only because all are alluding, allegorically, to the same primeval truth.

As a consequence, there can be no advancement of learning. Truth has been already spelled out once and for all, and we can only keep interpreting its obscure message.

One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements. The most influential theoretical source of the theories of the new Italian right, Julius Evola, merged the Holy Grail with The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, alchemy with the Holy Roman and Germanic Empire. The very fact that the Italian right, in order to show its open-mindedness, recently broadened its syllabus to include works by De Maistre, Guenon, and Gramsci, is a blatant proof of syncretism.

If you browse in the shelves that, in American bookstores, are labeled as New Age, you can find there even Saint Augustine who, as far as I know, was not a fascist. But combining Saint Augustine and Stonehenge—that is a symptom of Ur-Fascism.

There are 13 more characteristics...

[DavidDvorkin]

6. It's really more like Godwin's Rule of Thumb.

[smirkymonkey]

7. We ignore the comparisons at our own peril.

They may not be exactly the same, but they are certainly following the same playbook.

[BobTheSubgenius]

31. And I think that is, the point of making comparisons nnd drawing parallels.

They don`t have to be spot on, up and down a long checklist to be valid. The value of the exercise is the instructive nature therein, not a nattering debate - I am NOT referencing this thread, but more the general nature of these discussions - about the level of `The administration hasn`t designed special uniforms and there is no official salute or adopted lexicon, so...no, there is nothing to be gained by bringing up fascists and Nazis.`

There is a large and important point, and that is, as you say `Be Aware!`

[Mr. Ected]

8. Hitler's exploits are a fait accompli

Trump's are still a work in progress. He seems to a faithful protege, though.

[Cha]

10. I don't give a Rat's ass about it, either..

This regime threw it out the window. It's gone.

[calimary]

32. Neither do I, Cha.

Besides, if it fits the description, then so be it. Something about if it quacks like a duck...

[appalachiablue]

12. FDR, Feb. 29, 1938

[Caliman73]

13. That isn's Godwin's Rule anyway.

It may be a corollary but it isn't what Godwin came up with. He simply stated that the "longer an internet topic is discussed regardless of the subject or scope, the likelihood of someone one making a comparison to Hitler or his crimes increases."

Other people added the idea that bringing up Hitler automatically makes the person who brought it up, the loser of the argument.


I understand that Hitler and the Nazi's crimes are unique in history, but then again so are Stalin's, Mao's, Pol Pot's, The Spanish, Andrew Jackson and the Manifest Destiny folks, King Leopold, etc....

What they have in common is that none of them started out murdering millions upon millions of people. Each one started out novel and supported by people. There was always debate about how strongly to condemn each one and each had their vocal supporters and mostly a much larger but silent group that went about their lives as if nothing was happening, until it did.

When people think that nothing like the Third Reich can happen again or happen especially in America, that only makes it more likely that something like that will happen.

[tonedevil]

21. This correction...

is what I was looking for. It upsets me, beyond what it should, when people misuse Godwin's law. It is ignorant to say that if you make a comparison to Hitler in a threaded conversation you lose. Perhaps it is significantly more frequently true that making a Hitler comparison indicates a weak argument, but as you point out while unique he isn't incomparable.

[mehrrh]

29. agreed 100%

Fascists started out with popular favor, which supplied them with a strong base from which to launch their horrific reign.
Read Sinclair Lewis' book from decades ago "It Can't Happen Here" -- it was written to demonstrate how Hitler came to power and how it can be duplicated in the US. People were cheering for the dictator initially and when the regime turned on them, it was too late.

[Pepsidog]

15. The point is, Trump & Hitler are strikingly similar. If Hitler were alive, Trump would be his buddy

[FiveGoodMen]

55. Without a doubt, considering how chumy he now is with "Little Rocket Man"

[sandensea]

16. Ruled hand in glove with big business...bashed journalism...threatened neighbors...

No resemblance at all.

[Gore1FL]

18. There are huge differences, though.

For example:

Hitler won the popular vote.

The Russians didn't own Hitler.

Hitler didn't put ketchup on well-done steaks.

[gratuitous]

34. Hitler didn't win the popular vote, either

But anyway, Trump's followers, employees and mouthpieces have done the following: Held a rally in Charlottesville where they invoked "blood and soil" and killed a counterprotester; characterized the outcome of the G-7 conference with our putative allies as a "stab in the back" (Peter Navarro and Larry Kudlow both independently used that loaded term); and demonized immigrants and refugees, and laid claim to being the only "real" Americans.

I know there are a lot of well-meaning voices out there counseling calm and fer gosh sakes, don't say any swears! I'm not content to bide my time watching the increasing Nazification of our culture and our country, and I'm calling it out every day until the election in November.

[njhoneybadger]

20. I don't think it's a stretch that he would kill millions of Muslims either

I also don't give a rat's ass

[rickyhall]

23. Hitler also betrayed his allies.

[Progressive2020]

24. Valid

We need to be able to talk about Trump and Fascism in the same discussion. These are real things (Trumpism, Fascism). Certain comparisons are valid.

[dalton99a]

25. Kick

[former9thward]

26. Goodwin's law came about because people don't know history.

They just know internet sound bites. So some people compare Trump to Hitler, others compared Obama to Stalin and various dictators. Neither know history. Neither have traveled the world and seen other peoples and cultures. They are all just keyboard warriors putting out internet sound bites that sound cool.

[mehrrh]

28. Godwin

There is a reason Godwin's exists is because it is true.

[smirkymonkey]

35. Oh, FFS. It is not.

It's psuedo-intellectual bullshit.

[EndGOPPropaganda]

33. Godwin HIMSELF has given you dispensation

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/08/14/the-creator-of-godwins-law-explains-why-some-nazi-comparisons-dont-break-his-famous-internet-rule/?utm_term=.32451a4c9779

[robbedvoter]

36. Godwin himself said - last year I think - law is suspended when actual Nazis are involved

on Twitter

[Mc Mike]

37. He isn't called shitler for nothing.

[OneGrassRoot]

38. Godwin himself...

said to use the term Nazis, after Charlottesville.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. If you put dictators on a scale

Last edited Fri Jun 15, 2018, 09:04 AM - Edit history (1)

If you put dictators on a scale with a garden variety dictator like Francisco Franco on one side of the scale and Stalin and Hitler on the other I'm not convinced Trump would be closer to Franco if he wasn't encumbered by to our now strong institutions. Many dictators were popularly elected at first, including Hitler whose National Socialists won a plurality in Germany's 1933 elections.

[oberliner]

41. Main Thing Hitler did: Exterminated Six Million Jews

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Up to 20,000, 000 people died in Stalin's purges and forced collectivization.

Up to 75,000,000 died in Mao's Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward.


Up to 3,000, 000 people died in Pol Pot's killing fields, in a country of only 15,000,000 people.


Many dictators take an awful toll. The only thing that prevents Trump from joining that rogue's gallery is not his moral compass but our to now strong institutions.

[Mc Mike]

53. A lot of people could see what he wanted to do, before kristallnacht.

He wrote about it, ran on it, gave power to people who hated Jews.

Some of the people decrying the comparison are being obtuse. There's no reason to reify the nazis to the single time point in their existence right before VE Day.

No reason to have to be so precise in our language every time, 'they're like the NSDAP in the period after '33, though they're not german national socialist workers, to be sure.' Simplifying it to 'they're nazis' is in no way dismissive of the major evil action of exterminating those millions of Jewish people.

They're nazis like those beer hall putsch-ers.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. "History repeats itself, "the first as tragedy, then as farce."

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210735798

[Gothmog]

46. Great meme

[DiverDave]

47. LAW??

Sure, some dude tells me I'm stupid.
Screw him. And anybody else that tells me
That "I lose" for stating a FACT.
sounds like, um, NAZI GERMANY.

[IronLionZion]

48. Mike Godwin has stated the comparisons are valid

and has noted that the alt-right and white nationalists are the ones using "Godwin's Law" to discredit opposition.

[backscatter712]

51. Even Godwin himself said Godwin's Law doesn't apply if the comparison is true.

And it is.

[Nitram]

57. Dude, Godwin's Law fell by the wayside early in Trump's presidency.

Or was it back on the campaign trail? It stopped bing a law when Trump came along.