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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy Can't Democrats Give Trump Credit on North Korea?
The Singapore summit actually made the world a safer place. The presidents critics wont admit it.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-kim-jong-un-summit/562934/
The irony, therefore, is nearly irresistible. In his nuclear summit this week in Singapore, Trump gave up moreand got lessthan Obama did with Iran. He flattered Kim Jong Un in ways Obama never flattered Hassan Rouhani or Ayatollah Khamenei. And so, having been offered a free shot on goal, congressional Democrats are taking it. Its satisfying to expose your political adversaries as frauds.
But the Democrats are wrong. Theyre not wrong that Trump proved a weaker, dumber negotiator than Obama. Theyre wrong to suggest that makes the Singapore summit a failure. In their desire to prove themselves savvy and tough, Democrats are proving myopic. And theyre making themselves de facto allies of ultra-hawks like John Bolton, who may try to derail the Trump-Kim peace process, and revive the threat of war.
Squinch
(50,773 posts)quartz007
(1,216 posts)Not exactly a right winger.
lame54
(35,130 posts)Hey we can always start the military exercises again
But Trump may pull the troops out
And putting them back in would be equal to Trump admitting a mistake
Trump don't admit to mistakes
quartz007
(1,216 posts)I can bet my last dollar on that. However Peter Beinart makes a valid point in his article and frankly I was surprised he wrote this article.
lame54
(35,130 posts)This may open up trade to NK
= more money
= more nukes
Making Kim a world player is not a good idea
LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,538 posts)If the deal with North Korea goes down as many us expect, he'll blame the Democrats, Obama, Trudeau (his new favorite whipping boy), Mexican rapists, and the failure of Congressional Democrats to pay for his wall.
Oh, yeah -- don't forget Crooked Hillary. He certainly can't.
Then he'll ask Kim Yung Un what else he wants from us and then try to explain to "his people" why giving the North Koreans more than they want shows what a masterful deal maker he is.
still_one
(91,944 posts)and his assessment worked out real well on that one.
As for his thesis in this OP impling that the Democrats should not say the Korean summit was a failure, perhaps he should be a little more objective and realize while some of the critique is from the Democrats, most of that of that criticism is coming from republicans in the Senate, independent foreign policy experts, along with our allies, and other independent sources.
By all indications the U.S. took our ally, South Korea by surprise by canceling the scheduled military exericises with them, did not receive anything in return, and cut off the press when they asked the reasonable question if they will have the means to inspect the dismantling of the nuclear weapons. Instead of responding with something to the effect, "the discussions hadn't gotten that far", this administration took the question as an insult, became defense, and said it was an impertinent question.
If Beinart wants to characterize that as a success, then I suggest his judgement is severly lacking
Tavarious Jackson
(1,595 posts)and maximum pressure can no longer be applied in the future. Why? Because North Korea has been normalized n the world stage and we no longer have the help of other nations. It's the long game that works not the short game.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)That is their passport to survival and world prestige.
I am surprised Peter Beinart thinks Trump deserves credit. He has been a reliable anti-Trumper in the past.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)What success? Was the proper ass kissing as success? If so, what result?
quartz007
(1,216 posts)read Peter Beinart's whole article.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)That is what he is doing in the excerpt you posted, so fuck him!
quartz007
(1,216 posts)DonViejo
(60,536 posts)Republicans held him up as a "good" liberal, beating up the rest of us with his "goodness."
Cha
(295,899 posts)Cha
(295,899 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)So he is not a right winger. That does not mean he is correct.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)prediction of future. Every article is to be taken with a grain of salt.
unblock
(51,974 posts)quartz007
(1,216 posts)by Kim Jong Un. But only fools will trust N Korean leaders. History is the proof of that, and never ignore history otherwise you will be doomed to repeat it.
lame54
(35,130 posts)And instead of using that to our advantage Trump makes him a world player
Voltaire2
(12,610 posts)they have missile test facilities, at least 6 that are known.
Squinch
(50,773 posts)dalton99a
(81,065 posts)randr
(12,408 posts)sheshe2
(83,324 posts)MrsCoffee
(5,801 posts)Cha
(295,899 posts)He's full of shite.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)progressive. This is the first article I ever came across written by Beinart which has something good to say about Rump.
lame54
(35,130 posts)"He's pretty good except for that one article."
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Peter Beinart wrote this article. I guess there is always the first time.
JHB
(37,128 posts)His reasoning then bore a close resemblance to his reasoning here. Essentially "yes, it's being proposed by despicable people, but because of (assumption), (believed lie), (ignorance of important aspects), (more assumptions), and above all (wishful thinking), it will make the world safer."
In doing so, he and his fellow "liberal hawks" helped Bush sell the upcoming invasion as having "bipartisan support", undermined the people trying to stop it, and made it easier for Bush to get congress' authorization to launch that half-assed neoconservative joyride that made the wold decidedly less safe.
A little perspective on why people are reacting so negatively to the OP. We've seen Beinart with massive blinders on before.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)of What Beinart wrote back then. But There is no reason to doubt what you recall.
I have said this so many times, attacking Iraq by Bush-43 was the worst foreign policy blunder in 100 years.
Cha
(295,899 posts)be posted on DU.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Cha
(295,899 posts)all the other posts who agree it's CRAP.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Do you recall the panic in Hawaii over rumors of incoming missiles from N Korea?
It is a good thing Rump is not insulting Kim anymore. But I have grave doubts if Kim will give up his much beloved nukes.
Cha
(295,899 posts)quartz007
(1,216 posts)It was the biggest foreign policy blunder by any president in 100 years. If Beinart was for Iraq war, he was totally mistaken.
rockfordfile
(8,682 posts)tazkcmo
(7,286 posts)still_one
(91,944 posts)that sorry affair destabilized the entire middle east, and killed over a million people
Also, what is missing from Beinart's criticism of Democrats, is that they were not even close to the biggest critics of this non-deal. Foreign policy experts, the military, our allies, and a large number of Senate republicans were not pleased at all, and made that very clear
I could care less whether it gets posted at DU or not, plus adding that his points can easily be refuted make it a nonsensical premise
Cha
(295,899 posts)I wasn't clear enough.. I meant this particular piece of crap shouldn't be posted on DU.
Yeah, I do remember now.. Beinart Blew it on Iraq, too.
Link to tweet
I sense a pattern.. seems he hasn't learn from his previous egregious "mistake".
still_one
(91,944 posts)crap
Give trump credit for what?
Nothing
I didn't think so.
Voltaire2
(12,610 posts)so unless things change posting articles from there is fine, even if they are wrong.
Cha
(295,899 posts)Freethinker65
(9,929 posts)Successful in that things may have calmed down for a bit after Trump fucked up earlier and escalated tensions? Ok. Sure.
Trump's negotiating skills were shown to be non-existent. Is that something to be pleased about as a nation?
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Trump's negotiating skills with foreign adversaries are a big unproven enchilada.
TCJ70
(4,387 posts)He got a whole lotta nothing in writing, and said the important stuff they agreed to they just didn't have time to write down. That's pretty convenient. If two maniacs decide to work together I'm hesitant to view that as a good thing.
thewhollytoast
(318 posts)lsewpershad
(2,620 posts)Sjould call bs.
lsewpershad
(2,620 posts)Should call BS.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)be an ignorant, hateful white wing racist/bigoted buffoon. And he is not going to do any of that, just the opposite.
But, we are better off for having the summit. trump did little if anything to get the summit or make it through, but peace -- even if short-lived -- is better than nukes flying and hundreds of thousands of thousands innocent people killed. Just months ago, we were rightly criticizing trump for threatening to attack, even nuke, NKorea. Now, he bumbles through a summit and things have cooled down a bit for awhile, maybe just a short while.
Jeeez, people actually think because he didn't come back with a 500 page agreement -- that typically takes a year or so to negotiate -- he totally failed. That's wrong. This kind of meeting was to set some kind of lofty goal. The next steps will lead to verification, etc., and hopefully some requirements to improve human rights in NK. Bombing them into treating their people right, isn't going to work.
I know the GOPers viciously criticized Obama for every great thing he -- and the First Lady -- did. They bashed him/her on little things too, including wearing a tan suit or a sleeveless blouse. The outright racist insults were disgusting.
But we don't have to be like GOPers, just because they did it. trump did one thing sort of right, hopefully he or the next Prez can expand upon this beginning of detente and work on human rights for the good of the people in NK and the region. Maybe this moves us a few years closer to that end.
The best message we can send him, rather that yapping at everything, is to win big in November. That would be a renunciation of trump, and display a lack-of-confidence.
I despise GOPers, but rather than wasting time criticizing trump on that, maybe it would be better to just ignore the so-called "summit," and move on to things that do matter -- health care, immigration, raising minimum wage, education, human rights here, corruption . . . . .
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Take the summit as a possibility, never a guarantee of success.
treestar
(82,383 posts)not for that, but for establishing world peace.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Remember the panic in Hawaii over incoming missiles?
At least orange Fuehrer is not trading insults with the dictator in NoKo.
treestar
(82,383 posts)quartz007
(1,216 posts)But the fact is harsh insults were being lobbed, and could have started a nuclear exchange. Hawaii was in panic once.
treestar
(82,383 posts)and nothing he should get a ton of credit for.
lame54
(35,130 posts)leftstreet
(36,078 posts)You make good points, but by your own observation:
the whole thing looks like a Trump-manipulated P.R. attack on all of us
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 17, 2018, 01:44 AM - Edit history (1)
We are better off with the summit. It surprised me when trump said yes, rather than going into his fire, fury, Rocketman, chest thumping routine.
Of course, one half-assed semi-accomplishment hardly makes up for the crud hes done recently.
Trump's not the problem. We're just so gosh darn hard on him!
Come on.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)But the summit is not the problem. Find something real to bash trump about, theres plenty there.
rockfordfile
(8,682 posts)Hoyt
(54,770 posts)to see there are lots of really bad things to go after trump about. The summit isnt one of them.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)The summit was a Christmas present to NK, and Trump brought absolutely nothing back but a bill of goods.
Though I certainly don't think you're an idiot, I do think your premise, unsupported by any objective evidence is.
Though I get it... holding an opinion others than yours is merely our myopia.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)But, we are better off for having the summit. trump did little if anything to get the summit or make it through, but peace -- even if short-lived -- is better than nukes flying and hundreds of thousands of thousands innocent people killed. Just months ago, we were rightly criticizing trump for threatening to attack, even nuke, NKorea. Now, he bumbles through a summit and things have cooled down a bit for awhile, maybe just a short while.
Trump acts like a fool and backs down from his own rhetoric.... for a bit. WIN!
ladjf
(17,320 posts)on DU. Who would be dumb enough to think that Trump deserves credit for a tacky piece of stage craft?
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Peter Beinart has been a respected progressive author.
Squinch
(50,773 posts)Cha
(295,899 posts)rockfordfile
(8,682 posts)That piece reads like Sanders crap.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,207 posts)this all came about at the behest of Vladimir Putin. We gave away the store, and got little in return, and Democrats are not "wrong" to label this little piece of Russian stagecraft "a failure".
Cha
(295,899 posts)Rachel's Reality Based View.
Tarheel
Initech
(99,912 posts)Kim Jong Un is a murderous thug and putting him on a pedestal is not a good idea. One meeting and Trump's suddenly an expert in diplomacy? Get the fuck out of here!
catbyte
(34,169 posts)[IMG][/IMG]
Cha
(295,899 posts)see the reality of what happened with the two Dics.
Thanks catbyte
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)GoCubsGo
(32,061 posts)The only thing that sack of human waste deserves credit for is suckering people like Beinart into believing he did something more than beating up the strawman he created.
samir.g
(835 posts)No fucking way.
GeorgeGist
(25,294 posts)quartz007
(1,216 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)a destabilizing empty photo op that is not going to increase safety because it raises expectations which North Korea will only smash down the road so that they can get more concession is the whole methodology.
One of the great achievements of the Obama administration is in reinforcing the patient stable diplomacy of multilateral diplomacy which creates a wide net of stable structure rather than the bull in the china shop of bilateral bullying.
Just as he has created chaos in unilateral trade actions Trumps go it alone method simply creates a metric for all of the crazy authoritarians who want to leverage particular advantages to carve out individual state advantages.
This same article could have been written for Neville Chamberlain. In this case not just one dictator has been emboldened but two. You have now fed Trump on glorifying the great leader like giving a crack addict a newer more potent drug.
Response to grantcart (Reply #48)
mr_lebowski This message was self-deleted by its author.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Being in a constant stage of outrage about what Trump is doing is having an impact on my ability to keep focused.
Thanks for the heads up.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Rustynaerduwell
(646 posts)When the car braked the motorcyclist hit the back of the car. Instead of dying, the motorcyclist flew head over heels forward, flipped, and made a perfect landing on his feet on the roof of the car. Not a scratch on the cyclist, but his bike was totaled. I don't credit him for surviving.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)rzemanfl
(29,540 posts)about saluting North Korean generals. Jesus H. Christ. (That's my bedtime prayer, not an insult).
ooky
(8,885 posts)When I see a concrete denuclearization effort coming together then I will give credit for an accomplishment. I think what we saw last week was a grand, Donald Trump style production, intended to glorify Donald Trump. I'm for talking, but my opinion was this approach was all wrong. This should never have been about Trump's "greatness". But that's what it was, and always is with Trump involved. I can see a lot of ways this can blow up in Trump's face, and ours. So I need to see it play out for a while before I start to feel safer.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Only thing I prefer is less verbal bombs thrown at dictators.
Squinch
(50,773 posts)quartz007
(1,216 posts)Can you do us all a favor and tell us how high the DJI will be by year end?
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)The right bashes the Iran deal but loves this Putin Stagecraft.
mr_lebowski
(33,643 posts)Then again I'm so far post-this-entire-ridiculous-shitshow that I don't even ...
dawg
(10,609 posts)Not a single missile, warhead, or even conventional piece of artillery pointed at Seoul has been decommissioned.
We gave a photo op, and we got one in return.
Yay?
neeksgeek
(1,214 posts)The only thing that Trump achieved in Singapore is further distance from democracy.
Now Im debating whether to stop reading The Atlantic.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)Thomas Hurt
(13,903 posts)sarah FAILIN
(2,857 posts)Trump has done not one thing that hasn't been done before except embarrass our country multiple times and give away everything with nothing in exchange.
shanny
(6,709 posts)trump ratcheted up tensions with his little rocket man and my-button-is-bigger-than-your-button BS. Now he's ratcheted them down again, for the sake of a photo op and a win.
And that's all this is. There is no "agreement" with NK that hasn't been agreed to before, 14 times iirc, going back to 1985. That's on their side; on our side we have colossal liar preznit doing his usual thing.
renegade000
(2,301 posts)You're pretty naive...
quartz007
(1,216 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)You keep digging in with that particular deflection, punkin! It seems to be working, for you if for no one else. But as long as it's working for you...
Heck, say it loud enough and repeat it seventeen times, and people may even begin to believe you're sincere in the reasons you alleged to post it here.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Much published progressive author. I see no reason to ban his articles on DU.
nolabels
(13,133 posts)Caliman73
(11,690 posts)Democrats are not lining up with Bolton either, that is utter horseshit. You can be against One imbecile talking to a murdering shit bag without being against an actual peace process.
I suppose Beinart was all in for Neville Chamberlain too. That poor guy got a bum rap. I mean who knew Hitler wasn't trust worthy? Trump did what Trump does ALL THE DAMNED TIME. Vague promises of greatness with NO details to a guy who has been schooled by his Father and Grandfather on the skills to take actual well written documents with checks and verification methods, extend them out, then break agreements.
North Korea launched a cyber attack against parts of the US infrastructure, just days after the "historic, world made safer" summit.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)struggle4progress
(118,032 posts)no preparation, signed a meaningless document for a photo-op, made his usual off-script remarks, and rushed back before his limited attention-span was utterly exhausted
International observers will suspect that the White House is a chaotic mess, that the US has no reliable analysis, and that US commitments will flutter unpredictably with the wind, especially after his bizarre performance in Canada immediately prior
Perhaps it improves US-NK relations, if by US-NK relations we mean nothing more than Trump-Kim relations, but viewed in recent immigration context, the real take-away message may simply be a further step back from US human rights postures -- and that damages US standing in the world, while also weakening US labor against goods manufactured under repressive conditions. It's hard to read that as a defeat of the thuggish interests that people like Bolton serve
duforsure
(11,882 posts)Claiming something he didn't do, make us safer. If anything he made us more unsafe from Kim and Putin , and China aggression. Just like right now trumps doing nothing to prevent more election fraud from putin, doing nothing to take away nukes from sick kim, and allowed him to test enough bombs he no longer needs more testing, and now is mass producing weapons with them still having their delivery systems, and with the help of putin and China, and trump. Then pulling out our service members , and stopping military exercises for putin is a huge national security threat, and hasn't made us safer at all, just the opposite . Kim is a corrupt lying killer and trump wants us now to trust both him and kim ? lol. They both should never be trusted.
tavernier
(12,322 posts)He owns it all.
Demsrule86
(68,347 posts)is dumb...he got nothing good in that deal. Other presidents have made better deals which Korea ignored. This is no different except he gave the despot murderer, stature and that is a mistake...and without sanctions, he will be free to improve his weapons. We leave South Korea ...he invades...bad bad deal... made by the dumbest president ever.
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)JHB
(37,128 posts)That's all that has actually happened (as long as you discount, as he does, damage to relations with allies), but Trump is touting it as if Kim has already dismantled everything.
It did not "ma(k)e the world a safer place", and by asserting it Beinart is showing the same wishful thinking, lack of perceptiveness, dismissal of Democratic opposition as contrariness, and myopia that he had when he was one of the "liberal hawks" who supported Bush's invasion of Iraq.
This is another round of Pete-splaining how narrowly other people are seeing things, not noticing his own tunnel-vision.
quartz007
(1,216 posts)Liberal hawks are no better than neocons on the right wing.
What all these people fail to understand, is that we are no longer the superpower we were post WWII and Korean war and even Vietnam.
To spend dollars on wars with borrowed money is as stupid as it gets. Especially since these wars are not defensive. Korea and Vietnam and Iraq did not attack us.
rock
(13,218 posts)Of course, it's true, we may deliver on what we have promised, and Kim may deliver on what he promised. BWAH HA HA! Just kidding!
Stinky The Clown
(67,670 posts)Ammiright?
jmowreader
(50,447 posts)Problem 1: immediately before going, he alienated all Americas allies at the G7 summit.
Problem 2: he basically promised to remove the US military from South Korea. The ROK Army is better now than it was when I was stationed there, but its going to need US reinforcements to fend off a dedicated North Korean Peoples Army invasion. And its going to need them right then, not three days later - we have to stop them before they get a chance to get into the hills. (MASH fans know the 4077th sometimes got hundreds of casualties from a battle over one hill...well, thats how the real war went. And now they have ten times the manpower, a 6-million-member Reserve Force, and an active defense industry. If North Korea invades the south, there are no guarantees they wont turn the whole peninsula communist.
Problem 3: in exchange for giving KJU everything he wanted - entry into the world of nations and defanging the military opposing him - Trump got nothing real in return.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Fuck Trump.