Fucking Welfare Queens

[unhappycamper]

During the 2008 ~ 2009 financial meltdown, my 401K dropped around 40%. In other words 40% of my retirement savings disappeared. Poof. Gone. Many of you also experienced similar involuntary reductions in your 'wealth'; some lost their jobs and homes; 99% of us have experienced cutbacks in one way or the other. Some of us work two or three jobs to feed their family. Other have just given up.

Federal aid to cities and towns has been cut, as have many, if not all social programs. Chances are the roads where you live are in dire need of repair; I know many of the roads in Massachusetts are shit. Many water systems are teetering on the point of collapse, and your school budgets have been cut. Private prisons, private public schools, private colleges and private highways throughout this country are now becoming the new norm.

Hungry kids, adults, seniors, shitty schools, roads and infrastructure, homelessness , no new taxes, and the Tea Party and has become the new hallmark of America.

St. Ronnie gave us the welfare mom driving a Cadillac as the rallying cry to cut social programs. After 30+ years of this bullshit rallying cry, I would like to introduce the 2012 version of that cry. First let's look at where that money goes in the Federal budget:



So the United States Military budget comes from the same pot as Education, Housing & Community, Veterans Benefits, Health, International Affairs, Enery & Environment, Science, Labor, Transportation and Food & Agriculture. The Military is taking 57% of all discretionary funds in the proposed 2013 budget.

So what are we getting for that 57%?

We have a fleet of 186 (or 187) $418 million dollar F-22 Raptors that were grounded for five months because the oxygen systems in those planes were causing pilots to lose consciousness. One plane actually augured into the ground in Alaska when the pilot blacked out. In a recent international war games in Alaska our $418 million dollar wonder did not do all that well:

[center]They (the military) found that the F-22, which Gates once said was supposed to “ensure U.S. command of the skies for the next generation, ”was in fact evenly matched against the German Typhoons. While the F-22s excelled at fighting from beyond visual range, thanks to their sophisticated radar and long-range missiles, close-range combat was a different story. The F-22 is bigger and heavier than the German Typhoon, putting it at a disadvantage. German pilots defeated the F-22s at close-range; they have outlined their tactics in the latest Combat Aircraft magazine.[/center]

The Typhoon cost less than half what an F-22 does and "German pilots defeated the F-22s at close-range". So much for air superiority.

The F-35 is but another example of spending money for the purpose of spending money. Current cost for one of these bad boys is at least $243 million dollars a pop. And the price just keeps going up.


The United States Navy has not had much luck keeping the cost of what they buy down. $200 million dollar Littoral Combat Ships now cost $500+ million dollars each. Our Nation Security Cutters cost at least $546 million dollars a pop. $4.5 million dollar aircraft carriers have given way to the new $40 billion dollar Ford-class aircraft carrier. And we are buiding $5+ billion dollar destroyers at Northrup Grumman's shipyard in Bath, ME.

The $1.5 billion dollar LPD ships and Austral-built ships are, in a word, crap. The USS San Antonio has been in the shop at least three times for repairs since the United States Navy took possession. A recent article surfaced about new woes for the San Antionio class of ships:

www.defensenews.com/article/20120801/DEFREG02/308010007/New-Problems-Found-Avondale-Ships

[center]A new issue involving improperly installed bolts has emerged in the latest ships built by the Avondale shipyard near New Orleans, delaying the delivery of one ship and affecting another.[/center]


The United States Army has also spent a shit load of money on useless crap. $40 to $50 billion dollars of $1 million dollar MRAPs that are no longer needed. $89 thousand dollar precision 155 mm artillery, bad helmets for the troops, bad body armor for the troops, and we are still trying to select another camouflage pattern for our troops. The $100 million dollar Osprey is an expensive helicopter that is still prone to crashes. Andthe Army is bitching about needing to replace HMMWVs, Strikers and all their wheeled and tracked vehicles.


In 2011 the United States Congress created a Super Committe to cut $1.2 trillion dollars in Federal spending. If they did not come up with $1.2 trillion dollars in spending cuts, the military would budget would cough up $600 billion dollars over ten years as would everything else in the discretionary budget.

The Super Committe failed to reach an agreement on where to cut so sequestration is now in effect. Starting in 2013, social programs AND the Military is supposed to take a $60 billion dollar per year reduction in their budgets.

democrats (small d) and Republicans are lamenting the fact that the Military is going to lose another $60 billion dollars of their annual budget because the Super Committe failed to reach an agreement. Cries of a 'hollow force', preparedness decline, 'our equipment is wearing' out and 'we-need-this-weapons-system' abound.

ds and Rs want to stop that additional $60 billion dollar a year cut to the Military budget.

A little perspective is in order:

* The annual budget of the United States Military is around $1 trillion dollars a year by time you add occupation costs, the cost of NATO (in Afghanistan and elsewhere), the cost of supporting the Israeli military, nuke weapons costs, black programs, and all sorts of other goodies to the pile.

* The Military already took an annual $50 billion dollar hit in their one trillion dollar budget. For those not strong on math, one trillion dollars is $1,000,000,000,000; fifty billion dollars is $50,000,000,000. A one followed by twelve zeros divided by five followed by ten zeros is: 1,00[s]0,000,000,000[/s] / 5[s]0,000,000,000[/s] = .05 or 5%.

* These guys (ds and Rs) are bitching about another 5+% hit on their budget and are crying 'foul'. They want the United States Military to remain the strongest in the world. Basically, fuck your jobs, fuck your homes, fuck your health, fuck your food, and fuck you.


Who are the Welfare Queens you ask? Here's just a few of them:

[brewens]

1. I keep bringing up how many of the 1% must actually make more directly from taxpayers than

they pay in. I'd love to see some analysis on that. I've even emailed some of the shows, ED and Rachel among others. Think about a CEO of a weapons manufacturer. He may be close to 100%. The guys running or heavily invested in oil companies. How much do they get from us? Add up all the fuel and lubricants we buy for the military, federal and state governments.

The big guys calling the shots didn't buy a system they lose money on. They come out way ahead. More needs to be said about that.

[HiPointDem]

18. it seems like the upper middle class pays the taxes and the top 1% collects them.

[LiberalFighter]

45. The average itemized deductions for those with income $200k or more is $64k.

Guess how much of Romney's income was exempt from taxes?

$4 to 6 million in the last two years.


Guess who pays higher taxes because he pays less?

[brewens]

58. Hasn't that almost always been the case with the ruling class. They just didn't used to

have to hide it. They sent their guys around to directly collect from their peasants. One thing about Robme's taxes that I like to see. His 13.9 percent kind of blows up these rich guys that constantly claim paying 50% or more. The "even if you took it all it wouldn't be drop in the bucket" people.

I remember someone doing some research on Billdo O'Reilly when he was going off on taxes. Sure if you added up his federal, state and other local tax rates it comes out to something like 50%. We all know he doesn't really end up paying anything close to that. Deduction and investment income that is taxed at a much lower rate get his actual taxable income way down percentage wise. Of course they will always look at it differently. What they do pay is a lot of money. A much lower percent than most of us but a lot higher dollar figure. The only thing is a lot of them collected more from us than what they paid in.

[Tennessee Gal]

2. Which parts of that represent welfare?

Or the Food Stamp program?

Just curious. Would be good info to have.

[paradox]

3. Food and Agriculture

I might be wrong but i'm pretty sure.

[Tennessee Gal]

5. That's what I thought.

Thanks.

[happyslug]

77. This is DISCRETIONARY spending, Social Security, Welfare, Food stamps etc are NOT included

Social Security, Welfare, Food stamps are non-discretionary spending. i.e. fixed by law and MUST be spent unless the underlying law is changed.

Veterans Benefits include Military "retirement". By tradition what is called "Retirement" is technically "Half pay". "Half pay" for possible activation has been the norm for Military Retirement since BEFORE the Revolution. Since Congress has NEVER ruled such "half pay" anything more then a retaining pay for later call up, the military recipients has no property right to it, and thus Congress can cut it out anytime for any reason or no reason. Thus it is technically discretionary, but in reality politically non-discretionary (i.e. the American people will support such retirement pay for military personal, even if the American people want to cut the military by 90% or more).

Percentage from the TOTAL Budget (Both discretionary and non-discretionary spending):

Non-discretionary spending:
$820 billion (22%) Social Security payments
$811 billion (21%) Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP payments
$246 billion ( 6%) interest on the National Debt
$583 billion (15%) other ‘mandatory’ payments (including TARP)

Discretionary spending:
$700 billion (18%) national defense
$565 billion (15%) other ‘discretionary spending’
$ 97 billion ( 3%) Overseas Contingency Operations (war supplemenetals)

Revenues:

$1,294 billion (34%) individual income taxes
$990 billion (26%) social insurance (FICA/Medicare)
$365 billion (10%) corporate income taxes
$234 billion ( 6%) other taxes & duties
$901 billion (24%) budget deficit

Please note a lot of Non-discretionary spending can still be cut, but Congress has to do it by re-writing the underlying law OR do a "budget reconciliation" bill that does the same thing, but only for a year. Such "budget reconciliation" can stay in the budget for years, just passed every year. For example, the underlying law as to eviction for criminal activity has been "on or by" public housing property at least since the 1970s, but starting in the 1980s it was changed each year to "On or off" public housing property every year in every budge reconciliation bill. i.e for at least 20 years the law has been "on or off" not "on or by" for every year, as part of the budget, "on and off" is included as part of the Budget.

I bring the public housing rule for the simple reason it shows that even non-discretionary spending can be changed in the budget, thus why the GOP goes after the non-discretionary spending part of the budget every year.

[rocktivity]

4. .

rocktivity

[CrispyQ]

102. Nice!

Our cartoonists & comedians speak more truth than the entire "news" media combined.

[marmar]

6. The MIC death grip on this country continues unabated.

nt

[99Forever]

17. My sentiment exactly.

Unlimited funding for The Death and Destruction Machine?

Not a problem.

Pennies for housing, food and health care for "you people?"

Fuck off, look at the "National Debt," we gotta have some REAL austerity.

[MannyGoldstein]

7. A 5% cut in military spending. That's it?

I heard a piece on NPR yesterday, IIRC everyone interviewed made it sound like the cuts were catastrophic and utterly irresponsible. They forgot to include the 5% number, of course...

Thanks for your analysis.

[Thinkingabout]

8. Corporate welfare still exist and cost more than the welfare queens.

Another form of welfare has been the raiding of company pension by the likes of Bain Capital. They run in and grab the piggy bank and send the jobs to India. Rmoney does not think the job creators should be taxed and I agree with him and the true job creators are the 90% present which purchases products and services and not the 1%.

[Smilo]

9. Excellent well thought out

article OP - thank you. Welfare queens indeed.

It is ironic that while we are telling other countries to make the world more peaceful and caring, we are busy stockpiling expensive, useless weaponry. And because it is useless the MIC keep bringing out "bigger and better" so the stupid Defense Dept keeps buying into it.

What did your tax dollars buy today:

- War - because we just need to show our military might somewhere

- Pestilence and Disease - because we don't need to spend the military's money on healthcare and this is a
good way of weeding out those "welfare" sucking poor people.

[SaveAmerica]

10. My husband saw Contractor Fraud Waste and Abuse in Iraq BigTime!

When I was a kid and my family was stationed in Germany, they had a commercial on AFN-TV about Fraud Waste and Abuse and how when you take Government property it was stealing taxpayers' dollars. Every pen, every pencil, anything you take home from your office the commercial said. I laugh at that now with the rampant FW&A going on in the military.

I've told the story on DU before of my husband who had to move from one FoB to another in Iraq and while waiting for the helicopter to take off watched 3 contractors gas it up; one to open the tank, one to put the nozzle in the tank opening and one to open the fuel valve to start it up. Last time I checked we have servicemembers who have been trained in those tasks. His own MoS while there was overshadowed by the contractors; they did the work and my husband and his troops were to watch and never have contact with them. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (in my opinion) paid out more than twice what it should have with the doubling up of contractor to military jobs and then the pay they received being 2 - 3 times what the military earned.

Are you a Veteran (checking your medal on your picture)?

[xtraxritical]

11. War mongering for corporate welfare, USA, USA...

Would voting Democratic help?

[SaveAmerica]

15. Yes, I feel it will. I think Obama's steps have been calculated,

I haven't always understood them or liked some of them, but I feel that there is rhyme to his reason.

If he'd come out too left-leaning in his military strategy he would have exposed himself in a way that could be used by the right in campaign ads and debates. They could make some in America feel that he doesn't know what he's doing and help him lose the 2nd term. This way, he has kept his campaign promise of getting us out of Iraq and working to close shop in Afghanistan. I think we'll see some serious changes after he wins.

I wonder if the military (especially those currently in Afghanistan) would be able to see the bigger picture of this time in Afghanistan as insurance to safeguard their buddies in the future? I feel that Obama was methodical in his Middle East planning to help him get into the 2nd term which will get troops out of Afghanistan and not rushing into another fire which I feel would happen if Romney or any Republican got into office (keeping them in Afghanistan and elsewhere to keep raking in the $$$).

Just to let you know; I was against us going into Iraq from the beginning and then had a husband who served there. Every time I hear of a Servicemember who has lost his or her life in Afghanistan, it's like burning in my heart. I think Obama had been given a really horrific situation to fix and he has done the best he could to work on making it better.

[Amonester]

16. I think pretty much the same. In a second term, fighting climate change must...

become #1 emergency priority, IMHO, otherwise there will not be any chance for a 22nd century (for mankind).

[The Wizard]

21. Can't forget the mercenaries

And how much of that military budget gets funneled into "campaign funds" or worse, Cayman Islands secret accounts in the name of phantom corporations?
Remember when 19 guys with box cutters brought us to our knees and had the entire nation shuddering in the corner?
Whenever anyone suggests cutting the bloated military budget they get hammered in the media for being weak on the day's bogeyman or ism. GE/NBC is also a major defense contractor. The CIA has people in every major media outlet to ensure the propaganda of fear gets into our unconscious.
Ever since December 7, 1941 the military has been given a blank check.
In the late 40s we were put on a permanent war footing when the Department of War (only fully funded in a declared war) became the Department of Defense, and from that moment we've been on a permanent war footing with military bases all over the world.
Every empire in History has been consumed by an expanded military footprint it was unable to sustain. The road to empire is paved with failed republics that couldn't contain military expansion.

[JonLP24]

68. Things must have changed

When I was in Iraq it was third-country nationals that were the fuelers. There were contractors but they didn't do the job you described. TCNs are probably technically contractors but they get paid far less, even much less than American troops. In '06-'07 they got paid between $300-$600 a month and had shit living conditions.

Your point still stands but wanted to point out when I was there, dirt poor TCNs did that job. There was highly paid contractors but they typically didn't do that job. I guess it depends on the FOB but I was a motor transport operator who delivered supplies to about 20 different ones.

Here is a good article about the not talked about TCNs.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12675

[SaveAmerica]

80. This was '09 and only one example

He says it was American contractors doing the fueling in the above example with Nationals cleaning and cooking for approximately $4000 a year if not less in other areas. The contractor jobs for Americans started at 80k with the guys hired to do what he was supposed to do getting 100k plus.

I imagine the details of pay would come down to which contracts were awarded each year and how Halliburton decided to hire and pay out to sub-contractors.

[JonLP24]

85. That sounds about right

I overlooked the helicopter part so they probably have the regular contractors for that. The only time I went to fuel points was to fill up trucks.

The pay for each is the same as to when I was there. Cooking & cleaning is there most common jobs but when I went on supply convoys, the majority of the trucks was their's about 20-30 to our 5. (plus 2 bobtails to pull inoperable trailers) Their trucks w/ fiberglass, no vehicle or body armour, no weapons. Hopefully things have changed in that area but I doubt it.

Sorry for the quick post, I overlooked helicopter.

[SaveAmerica]

112. It's all good, bottom line is that they're wasting money over there

Giving it to people who don't deserve it and then are not putting sufficient funds into Veterans needs when they return.

[L0oniX]

13. ...and there's all the HLS and other covert op costs which are covered in secrecy.

[raouldukelives]

14. It's digusting and there is no end in sight.

And it is all because of Wall St. Every stance they take is anti-liberal. Leaving all of our natural resources up to their discretion. Funneling billions to war contractors. If anything has done well for people in the market over the last decade, it's killing people. Your always guaranteed to make a little bit off of someones death, suffering or poor health.
Not to mention the infrastructure. As you pointed out it is all falling apart and it is all because of privatization and the fraud committed to keep that money and use it to make huge bets in the derivatives market.
They are speculating and gambling the country & world we love out of existence. Every buck in the market is an extra chip for them on the table. They will never stop. It cannot be regulated and they will not listen to reason. We've lost our social safety nets and many of us our friends & family because of it. They are destroying our water tables and forests. It feels like those of us who deeply care about those things have no voice anymore. Not in the face of all that wealth. Our corporate sponsored politicians use the US Military as the enforcement arm for its ends and now we are literally watching our very climate twist & squirm under the offenses they have perpetrated.
It sucks and I wish I knew a good way to make it work for the betterment of the world because it will never go away until it doesn't matter anymore.

"Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten."

[crimson77]

19. At least they do something for their handout

I was in the store a few days ago, stuck behind 2 perfectly capable men, arguing with some cashier about how much they had on their EBT card. I don't agree with the republicans on much, but this I agree with them. We have way to many people abusing the system.

I grew up poor, so I am willing to cut the poor alot of slack but at some point, cut the shit, As an aside the 2 idiots in front of me weren't buying basic staples to make a decent meal, like my single mom used to make. Nope for these geniuses it was potheads potluck: ice cream, frozen pizza, soda and pop tarts.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. Sounds like typical guys who don't know how to cook.

Maybe they think even learning to fix mac and cheese is "women's work" or worse, "gay".

Lots of TV dinners and hot pockets. If it weren't for microwave ovens these guys would starve. Hell, I know WOMEN like that too. They consider anything that involves a pot or pan to be "difficult".

[crimson77]

23. Not to change the subject

but I am a hell of a good cook. I live in what you would call a liberal haven, a friend(giant lib who went to Wellesley) had some french southern comfort food I made and in front my girlfriend blurts out "how are you not gay, your apartment is spectacular and you made this". So much for openmindness.

I shine at breakfast and the the grill.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

24. Tell me about it...

I made Crepe Suzette for my girlfriend.

[img][/img]

Needless to say, it freaked her out a little.

[crimson77]

28. Ragout of duck legs and Shrimp Remoulde are my specialities.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. I'm more of the "pizza casserole" type

But I have my moments. There's an entire generation that has never even boiled water and a toaster seems like it takes FOREVER.

We're talking about people who never even THINK of buying Minute Rice. They head straight to the freezer section. What I find funny are the ones who have a complete set of Wolfgang Puck cookware that's never been used. I show up and they act like I'm going to ruin it by putting it on a fire.

[crimson77]

41. The hardest thing for me, is finding all my ingredients at one store.

My big supermarket never has everything I need, Whole Foods will sometimes have to some of the other stuff.

That's why I love mexican food, this resturant I go to uses all fresh produce and makes their own tortillas, he let me go back and watch the guys cook, it was a total geekout.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

48. I have access to just about ANYTHING within three miles.

Including an oriental place where I can buy live crab and lobster and even live fish.

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

I bought a friend some imported chocolate from Holland there.

[img][/img]

There's another Mexican market down from them that makes fresh corn tortillas out of a machine with conveyors. It's neat seeing them pour in the fresh ground corn meal and out comes the perfectly formed tortillas to be fast cooked and packed.

[B Calm]

27. Only in republican world does

subsidies to oil companies that show record profits makes sense.

At least they do something for their handout, right?

[crimson77]

30. Take all subsidies away, and deductions as well.

Eliminate taxes on the first 25,000 you make and then go to Clinton level taxes on the rest, across the board.

[B Calm]

34. We do agree.

For a minute there I was thinking you were saying something else. Sorry. . .

[sabrina 1]

32. Did you look at the chart? What % of the national budget goes to the poor?

Even if every last one of them were cheating, as Republicans are certain of, it would not compare to the cheating that Military Contractors get away with.

Seems a bit odd to focus on such minutia in terms of spending, when you are looking at a chart that shows the egregious waste of trillions of dollars going to a very small number of people.

Do news reports, which we've seen, of Military Contractors cutting corners on flack jackets for the troops eg, to save themselves millions of dollars, while endangering the lives of the troops bother you as much as a few guys buying ice cream instead of peas? And that same contractor spending his ill-gotten gains on a multi-million dollar Sweet Sixteen party for his daughter? Or whatever the party was for??

Frankly I don't care what poor people receiving help from the government spend that money on. I care what the war mongers spend trillions of our tax dollars on because that money could be used to create jobs here, and these guys who have you so upset could be working.

Does anyone ask what these Welfare Queens from the MIC who live off the tax payers, spend THEIR money on? Are we concerned that they are buying the 'right food'?

Focusing on such trivia is exactly what they want us to do.

[crimson77]

33. I was born in a Marine Corps family, on a Marine Corps base.

If their guilty of malfesence hang them from the bow of a ship.

Why do you think they get away with this? Because everyone is bought off.

Who do you think Patty Murray cares about Boeing or the poor in Seattle?

[sabrina 1]

40. Well, there's certainly been enough reporting on the egregious and massive corruption since

these wars started. Yet, Congress ignores it all and continues to fund them without any real oversight.

My point is, if we're going to get upset over wasting tax dollars, the place to focus on is where most of those dollars are being wasted.

[crimson77]

43. I am overly protective the military, for a variety of reasons.

I am also weary of people who give this blanket amensty to the poor, I saw so many people abuse the entitlement system.

[sabrina 1]

52. Military Contractors, Halliburton, Bectel et al are not 'the military'.

I admit to giving 'amnesty to the poor' unless they have committed some crime other than being poor. I am weary of the attacks on the poor, while Welfare Queens like Dick Cheney and his Corporation are not even questioned regarding the money the profits they take from tax payers while not even doing the work they claimed they would do.

[crimson77]

53. But Northrup Gruman,Boeing, and Hughes are. I think they do great work.

[sabrina 1]

90. You never answered my question, 'what % of the National Budget goes to the poor'?

What you think is irrelevant, we are dealing with facts here.

[crimson77]

96. Do you know the answer, I'm to tired to look.

Plus all the diffrent agencies, it would be to hard to get an accurate read .

[sabrina 1]

113. It's not hard at all. It's quite easy as a matter of fact.

You could start with the chart in the OP which would help answer the question. Put it this way 'not nearly enough' is spent on the poor.

[crimson77]

114. I am not uncomfortable with those ratio's

Personally I'd like more money spent on science and transportation and the State dept. If the the President were willing to go back to Clinton tax rates and end all subsidies and deductions and spend that money to help the poor and lower middle class that would be fine. Whatever the case, what we are doing now isn't working.

[happyslug]

79. Welfare, Food Stamps and Social Security are under "NON-Discretionary" spending.

Non-discretionary spending:
$820 billion (22%) Social Security payments
$811 billion (21%) Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP payments
$246 billion ( 6%) interest on the National Debt
$583 billion (15%) other ‘mandatory’ payments (including TARP)

Discretionary spending:
$700 billion (18%) national defense
$565 billion (15%) other ‘discretionary spending’
$ 97 billion ( 3%) Overseas Contingency Operations (war supplemenetals)

Revenues:

$1,294 billion (34%) individual income taxes
$990 billion (26%) social insurance (FICA/Medicare)
$365 billion (10%) corporate income taxes
$234 billion ( 6%) other taxes & duties
$901 billion (24%) budget deficit

http://www.ontheissues.org/background_budget_+_economy.htm

[crimson77]

51. I am more opposed to the 2 stoner guys part.

I told you I grew up poor in the open, I am not ashamed.

[Egalitarian Thug]

56. Do you have any idea how much those "perfectly capable men" (a judgment you leap to with

Last edited Sun Aug 5, 2012, 07:42 PM - Edit history (1)

no supporting facts whatsoever) and everybody else you "conservatives" claim are abusing the system represent? Practically nothing. An insignificant rounding error in the DoD budget, which is what this thread is about.

In fact, for about 20% of the DoD budget, we could make the DoD budget completely unnecessary. Cutting the real welfare queens off would free up enough money to provide health care, education, and a guaranteed decent standard of living for all of our citizens with enough left over to balance the budget and to take the lead in healing the third world.

[crimson77]

59. I am not conservative, I have an opinion that I wish more people would share.

[Egalitarian Thug]

65. Reading your post and replies leaves only one possible conclusion. Yes, you are a conservative.

Maintaining your flawed opinion, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary shown to you here as well as being readily available to everyone with the least desire to know, is absolutely indicative of a conservative mindset. Not to mention the fact that every policy instituted in support of this illusionary army of poor people leaching off the system in luxury has failed for going on three generations now.

Who but a conservative can look at an uninterrupted record of failures, over so long a period of time, and conclude that the problem is that we just haven't tried hard enough?

BTW, millions upon millions of people share your erroneous opinion, they just don't generally join this party.

[crimson77]

70. What's flawed about it?

Do you know that Obama just waived Bill Clinton's welfare reform work requirement? A program that was working absolutley gangbusters, no real issues involved. All that was asked of them was that they work for 10 hours a week I believe. Evidently that peeved someone in some community that had some pull with the President. For all the benefits that are given EBT, medical and housing. All Clinton agreed to was you needed to work 10 hours a week. When someone is put off by working 10 hours a week that should tell you all you need to know about that person.

[progree]

73. The waiver is about granting states more flexibility - a typically RW position

It leaves the work requirement up to the states. For a little bit of perspective on the waivers:

Shift in Welfare Policy Draws G.O.P. Protests, By REBECCA BERG, New York Times, Published: July 17, 2012
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/18/us/politics/welfare-to-work-shift-angers-republicans.html

==============================
State support of waivers is not a new phenomenon. In 2005, 29 Republican governors, including Mr. Romney and Mr. Huckabee, asked Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader, for more “flexibility to manage their TANF programs and effectively serve low-income populations.”

“Increased waiver authority, allowable work activities, availability of partial work credit and the ability to coordinate state programs are all important aspects of moving recipients from welfare to work,” the letter read.

... Peter B. Edelman, a professor at the Georgetown University Law Center and director of the Georgetown Center on Poverty, Inequality and Public Policy, called Republican opposition to the waivers “totally ridiculous.”

“This is an advisory that is all about making it easier to get a job, which I thought is what the Republicans wanted,” Mr. Edelman said. “To say that this is somehow against the concept of TANF is bizarre, because what we have here are restrictions that Congress enacted that, on the ground, make it harder to get from here to there.”
==============================

(On edit 1108p EDT added 2 more paragraphs to the above New York Times quote)

On the broader issue -- I wonder about the welfare thing too. First, its not all contained in Discretionary spending, which is what is shown in the pie chart in the OP. Social Security disability benefits (and I've known some people on SSDI who sure seem fine to me, drive a much better car than me), and Medicaid are not part of Discretionary spending.

In Discretionary spending, it is not just Food and Agriculture. There is likely some also part of Health, Housing & Community, and Education. I doubt that TANF is in Food and Agriculture (I have no idea where it is).

I'd really like to know what the real picture is so that I can at least argue knowledgably with RW'ers. And just out of curiousity and for the sake of my own knowledge. But unfortunately there's probably not a place where one can discuss these things without it turning into a leftie vs. rightie lying contest.

[crimson77]

74. Don't get me started on SSDI

My neighbor is on it, perfectly fine, say's he got it for psychological reasons. He is fine, has been fine and will continue to be fine. At first he got denied, then he got these lawyers Binder and Binder on it. 2 or 3 months later of incessant phone calls and appeals later, he was approved.

As for the waiver, why kind of flexibilty does one need? There are 168 hours in a week, the goverment is asking you to work 7%ish of it.

[progree]

86. Ask the 29 RepubliCON governors including Mitt Robme why they wanted the waiver. I don't know.

"As for the waiver, why kind of flexibilty does one need? There are 168 hours in a week, the goverment is asking you to work 7%ish of it."

I don't know. You will have to ask Mitt Robme, Mike Huckabee, or the other 27 RepubliCON governors who signed the letter. I suspect you are getting a RW version of the story.

On another subject, I should have added the Earned Income Tax Credit to the list of welfare not in Discretionary spending.

[crimson77]

97. The governors are assholes, for many diffrent reasons

You know my position, what's yours. Is working 10hrs a week to much to ask of someone recieving assistance.

[progree]

108. I think the RWers are pulling your leg - they are great at telling half truths and manufacturing

outrage. You might look into the real story rather than just circulating RW talking points. You might for example, do a little research (avoid NewsMax and Fox "News&quot and find that letter that the RepubliCON governors signed. Then tell us what you find.

If for example, you've got a single mom with 3 kids going to school full-time in a demanding field, I'd waive the requirement -- why? so she'd get through school sooner and get a good job sooner, where, even as a single with 3 kids, she would become an income taxpayer rather than, say getting the earned income tax credit in some low-income job. That might be one reason the governors want more flexibility.

[crimson77]

111. What percentage do you think that actually is?

I'll throw you a bone and say it's 15%, not worth throwing the requirement away.

[progree]

119. The RWers are pulling your leg.

Obama didn't get up one day and decide 3 months before a major election that people on welfare shouldn't have to work. You are being fed nonsense by the right wing noise machine. And how is your research going on the letter that RobMe and 28 other REPUBLICAN governors signed? Do you really think it was because 10 hours of work is too arduous? Really? You think that?. I don't have the time to research every Freeper nonsense -- there is an election coming in 3 months and I'm not going to waste it arguing with RW trolls or DemTards either. And oh, by the way, Obama wasn't born in Kenya.

And I don't know what your percentage question is -- what percentage of what?

Would you get it through your nog noggin that Obama is leaving the work requirement up to the states, according to that NY Times article? He is not outlawing a work requirement, he is letting the states decide e.g. how to handle that single mom with 3 kids in #108 finishing up med school or engineering or whatever, what their work requirement will be. It is stupid, it is foolish, and it is asinine to assign her to some county make-work project for 10 hours a week, where they try to find things for people to do. Why? so she finishes up sooner and becomes a taxpayer rather than a taxeater that much sooner. OK?

[crimson77]

121. I don't care about their reasoning.

Is it to much to ask a person to work 10 hours a week?

I believe some idiot got into the Presidents ear and said " Mr President, this part of the law is making it to hard for blah blah to be there for there kids, will you please do something"

[progree]

123. yOU ARE BEING FED RW NONSENSE. How is your research going?

Would you get it through your nog noggin that Obama is leaving the work requirement up to the states, according to that NY Times article? He is not outlawing a work requirement, he is letting the states decide e.g. how to handle that single mom with 3 kids in #108 finishing up med school or engineering or whatever, what their work requirement will be. It is stupid, it is foolish, and it is asinine to assign her to some county make-work project for 10 hours a week, where they try to find things for people to do. Why? so she finishes up sooner and becomes a taxpayer rather than a taxeater that much sooner. OK?

I believe some idiot got into the Presidents ear and said " Mr President, this part of the law is making it to hard for blah blah to be there for there kids, will you please do something"

And do you believe some idiots got into the 29 REPUBLICON governors' ears with the same message, including Romney and Huckabee, and so they signed that letter asking for a waiver?

[crimson77]

124. I believe that the Republican governors are assholes.

And Romney is the biggest one.

But your right, let's go back to the halcyon day's of the 80's, welfare was going real well back then.

[progree]

130. "But your right, let's go back to the halcyon day's of the 80's" - cut the crap

But your right, let's go back to the halcyon days of the 80's, welfare was going real well back then.

Absolutely NOTHING, NOTHING I said indicated I wanted to go back to the halcyon days of the 80's, or that I thought welfare was going real well back then. NOTHING. I pay $14,000/year in federal income and state income taxes, and it sucks. I am a taxpayer, not a tax-eater. Giving a waiver on some 10 hour (if that's the number, where do you get that, by the way????) to the single mom with 3 kids to get through med school sooner rather than later is to save the taxpayers money, so that she transitions from tax-eater to taxpayer sooner. There is NO GOOD PURPOSE to putting her on some kind of county make-work project like looking for the teeniest bit of litter in an already very clean park (where I live there are far more people assigned to community service than there is real work to do).

By the way, have you done ANYTHING to look into what the real story is, rather than circulating some RW deliberately and grossly misleading half truths? ANYTHING?????.

Again, do you think Obama, before an election, decided to become a bleeding heart liberal and ban work requirements? NO HE DID NOT.

Do you think those 29 governors, including Romney, wanted waivers because they are secretly bleeding heart liberals that think people should sit on their asses all day? If you think that, well, never mind. Well, to put it nicely, I think you are really gullible to fall for these RW deliberately grossly misleading half-truths without even a bit of skepticism or curiosity. Just swallow whatever you hear on right wing hate radio, or right wing hate TV, or right wing hate email.

Have you even looked at the letter to find out why waivers might be a good idea in their minds? Obviously you didn't. Because all you seem to want to do is circulate RW crap.

====================================================
Obama Administration Defends Change to Welfare-to-Work Program, By REBECCA BERG, 7/19/12
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/19/obama-administration-defends-change-to-welfare-to-work-program/

In a letter dated Wednesday and signed by Kathleen Sebelius, the Health and Human Services secretary, the agency called its proposal one that “strengthens the law’s purpose to move people off of welfare and into jobs by utilizing state-based innovation. ... Our goal is to accelerate job placement by moving more Americans from welfare to work, and no policy which undercuts that goal or waters down work requirements will be considered or approved by the department,” the letter read.

... At issue is a directive released last week that would enable states to experiment with changes to their welfare-to-work programs, primarily as a means to bypass burdensome paperwork and reporting requirements. The letter to Mr. Camp and Mr. Hatch clarified that waivers would only be granted if states aimed to increase work placement by 20 percent, and waivers would be rescinded unless states demonstrated “clear progress toward that goal” within the first year.

... Speaking to reporters on Wednesday, Jay Carney, White House press secretary, maintained that the “administration opposes any effort to undermine those [work] requirements” and called Republican opposition “hypocritical.” (and the article goes on to mention the 2005 letter signed by 29 governors, and also last year by 5 governors - 2 of them Republican)

=====================================================
Here's the ***** 29 Republican governors' 2005 letter. Basically they are saying the federal law is a patchwork mess and that Congress isn't able to fix it because of politics, so let the states deal with it.

http://democrats.waysandmeans.house.gov/media/pdf/112/2005_Romney_Letter.pdf

======================================================
Actually, I think Obama caved to the Republicans by letting them increase the work requirements and tighten up on other rules. But the RW noise machine turns that into a propaganda campaign about Obama -- the Kenyan Mau Mau Socialist food stamp president -- ending the work requirement.

[JaneyVee]

88. How many people do you know personally that you believe is "taking advantage" of the system?

People you are 100% sure are able bodied & taking advantage. Remember, many people DO work & collect subsidies due to their low wage pay because corp's like to privatize the profits & socialize the losses.

[crimson77]

95. In my Situation

I lived in section 8 housing, It was really nice apartments in a well to do town, run by a private managment company, You had to pay 33% of your monthly income(i.e work,govt. assist). HUD would make up the other 66%. The only reason the managment firm did it was because when it was being built they got loans on the guarantee that the apts would accept Section 8. Now the building was about 80 units. About 20 of them were old folks, retirees and lower middle class people on a fixed income. The other 60 were divided in 2. 30 units of affordable housing and 30 units market rent. The market people were what I would call "transient" tenants. Most were upwardly mobile young single waiting to get married or buy a house. The others were just getting divorced or relocating for short periods of time. The lifers were the section 8 people, I saw scam on top of scam. Life was fun growing, so it alleviated the suck nature of living there. One of my favorite scams was if you had 2 children and they were both boys or girls, they had to stay in the same room. If you had a boy and a girl who were separated by more than 5 years, well they got seperate rooms. Where I lived a 3 bedroom was the creme de la creme. You had about 6 rooms and 2 bathrooms. You would be shocked at how many friend of mine have brother or sister that are 5 years younger then them.

[sabrina 1]

89. Where on earth do you live where all these 'undeserving poor' are managing to get all these

undeserved benefits? This is hilarious! You even got the Binder and Binder Teevee ad in! Binder and Binder?

Here's some reality for you, from the real world. It is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get SSDI unless you are seriously disabled and even when you are, it is still extremely difficult.

I'm finding this hard to believe for some reason since in the real world where I live, unless you are seriously disabled, you will not be getting any government checks.

[crimson77]

92. section 8 housing, go sometime it will be illuminating.

[crimson77]

93. Your laughing, I'll prove it to you.

When you go to get ssdi, you get denied. You call Binder and Binder they begin the appeal process. When the appeal is accepted, which is the only way binder get's paid, they take 25% of the first check. That check is for all the time since my friend got denied. It took about 4 months and he showed me his first check, it was about 1350. Look it up it's the truth.

[ejpoeta]

103. i hate to tell you but those places won't take the case unless they know they can win.

and psychological are the hardest to prove. I should know because I have tried to get it for myself as I have suffered with depression and bipolar most of my life. Does that mean I am able bodied and undeserving? You must really know your friend well to know he is scamming. Sometimes people don't wear this stuff on their sleeve. I have a hard time leaving the house. Being around people. I might have a few good days, but then I have really bad days I can't even get out of bed. I am on medication and go to therapy. But I guess I am just scamming if I try to get any help. My main purpose is generally so that i can get medicaid because otherwise I cannot afford to continue to go to the doctor and therapist. My husband works. We have very expensive insurance with high deductibles. I think you shouldn't judge everyone based on what you THINK. because you don't know all those people. You only know what you think you know.

[crimson77]

109. When I say my friend,

Hang out everyday.

[sabrina 1]

120. So you know one person who in your opinion is scamming the system for what is, actually a pittance

compared to all those actual Welfare Queens mentioned in the OP, and you have decided that the poor should never be helped?

That sure is some critical thinking. I never judge policy based on a personal situation. Don't know many people who do.

But if, rather than going with facts, we are to base policy on personal anecdotes, I could give you ten of my own which more than cancel out yours. But since personal anecdotes cannot be verified we generally do not use them here. They generally get as much credibility as they are worth.

I am looking at charts, and there so many of them, where I see this country spending more than all the other countries in the world COMBINED and more than any in the history of the world, on the MIC and still we are told, 'we are not safe'. So since this outrageous amount of money is not making us safe, what is the justification for it at this point?

Trillions of dollars, and still we are not safe. But the real Welfare Queens are getting richer and richer without any requirement it appears, to make this country safe.

But you're worried about one guy who might be getting what is pocket change to the MIC without deserving it.

Strange priorities imho.

[crimson77]

122. I'll give you facts

Over 8000000 people are on it, of 315 million people, thats near 2.5 percent of the population. 47% population works, the other half are kids and retirees.

And you think that everyone is on the up and up. If I speculated that 15% perecent of SSDI people were commiting fraud would you think that number is high or low?

[sabrina 1]

125. You still haven't commented on the Welfare Queens who are getting trillions of dollars

mentioned in the OP. And they have failed to make this safe we are told.


As far as I am concerned, the amount of money going to help the poor, the disabled, the elderly and children in this country is shameful, nowhere near enough which is why we have so many children in this country going to bed hungry every night, so many homelesss, so many of the homeless who are veterans "Support the Troops"! Right!

We have a worse rate of infant mortality, eg, due to lack of pre-natal care, than any other civilized country and worse than Cuba where HC is free.

Your obsession with the relatively minimal amount of money spent on the most vulnerable people in this country, is not often seen here, where people do have the facts.

44,000 Americans die each year for lack of Health Care. That is a national security issue. And it is a disgrace. That is more than half a million dead Americans from something that could have been easily fixed, since 9/11. So it's clear saving American lives is not the reason for those trillions of dollars.

[crimson77]

128. If people are guilty of frauding the goverment over military spending

They should go to jail. My point is for all the money we spend at least we get a return on Investment. We are safe, for some people they'll never feel "safe" enough.

There are only so dollars in the federal budget, the military takes up 18.74, let's for the sake of shits and giggles, we put it down to 15%. Where would you put that money?

The way I see it the only way our budget crisis gets solved Is to end all deductions,tax credits,subsidies and raises taxes to Clinton levels. Everyone pay's and the rewards for the new money would be from me:

Double NIH grants
Build new schools
Keep military same
Double Nasa budget
Rebuild Infastructure

[JonLP24]

104. You know how hard it is to get approved for SSDI?

If he has psychological reasons he probably has psychological reasons. They can appear fine on the outside but a mess on the inside. I certainly don't trust your judgment.

I'm personally not familiar with the 10 hour thing, what if you can't find work even for 10 hours? Unemployment numbers aren't so hot these days.

[sabrina 1]

87. More generalizations about the working class poor. Keep going, I'm enjoying your posts, they

certainly are, shall we say, 'unusual' here.

The sort-of praise for Clinton's program, mostly opposed btw by Democrats, was a nice touch though!

[Egalitarian Thug]

131. I don't even know where to start...

Shall we go back to reagan's mythical "Cadillac driving Welfare Queen"? The fact that she doesn't and has never existed doesn't seem sufficient to stifle this narrative.

Perhaps we need to go back to LBJ and his Great Society programs? The American Civil War?

I guess the biggest flaw is that your opinion is based on the most absurd, irrelevant, and financially insignificant examples that you and the people you choose to unquestioningly listen to can find, while simultaneously ignoring the trillions of your dollars that flowed to the very people causing every problem this nation and most of the world is facing.

Clinton's welfare deform isn't and has never worked "absolutley (sic) gangbusters". It was and remains one of the cruelest, most destructive abandonments of millions of helpless and voiceless victims of the parasites he works for. Of course it worked very well for him personally, he is a multi-millionaire, his wife has accepted the decree that she will never be allowed to be anything other than a water carrier for the party, and Chelsea is a hedge fund manager (you know, like the current republican candidate).

[knitter4democracy]

62. From the list, it sounds like they might not have a stove.

It's easy to judge when you don't know the situation. Many of our nation's poor live in old motels with only a fridge, a microwave, possibly a toaster or hot plate. It's really hard to eat healthy with a minifridge and no stove or oven without putting serious money into extras like a crockpot or a toaster oven, and then you have to be able to move quickly with few possessions--where do you put those?

"Perfectly capable" might mean all kinds of things. I have a former student who sure looks healthy and is on food stamps and disability because he has serious seizures.

That, and you'd be surprised how few kids grow up learning how to cook. I almost cried when, two years back at the alternative high school, I helped a class learn how to bake Christmas cookies. Most never had and had no idea how to make cookies at all. Their smiles lit up the room when they were done. So many kids don't have a Thanksgiving meal, have never learned how to do much more than boil water and follow directions on a box, and don't know how to sew or fix anything (but can't afford to throw anything away). The last few schools I've been in haven't had home ec--it's not tested, so it's gotten cut--or don't require kids to take it at all.

[Warren Stupidity]

101. Many working poor qualify for food stamps.

The food stamp program (SNAP) reaches 45,000,000 americans, many of them 'perfectly capable men' who, like many americans, make incredibly stupid food purchase choices. We spent around 80 billion dollars last year for this program. That is 80 billion out of 2.5 trillion. Are you seriously proposing cutting this program because you didn't like the food choices these two people made?

Seriously?

[CrispyQ]

105. How do you know they are perfectly capable?

Do you know these men personally? Do you know all the circumstances of their lives? Maybe they've already served in Iraq or Afghanistan & have PTSD & can't get a job. Maybe they just graduated from college & the only job they can get pays $8 an hour. Maybe their family is going through a difficult time & they all live together in one house & pool their resources. How do you know they are potheads? Because they are buying ice cream & pizza with food stamps they must be potheads?

You make a lot of assumptions based on no facts. You know more about the shady dealings of Haliburton & Blackwater than these two young men & yet you judge the young men more harshly than you do the major corporations that are stealing our Treasury by the billions, for the profit of a few.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

20. Would you spend $50,000,000.00 for an alarm system to protect a 73 Ford Pinto?

That's about what we are doing with our military spending.

Ya see, deep down there is a TERROR inside of white people that the "coloreds" are going to rise up and take over and make them slaves. They feel the military is there to "keep them in their place". Republicans know all about that fear and exploit it.

[crimson77]

25. Disagree

This country is and will continue to be the greatest country in the history of civilization. Do we have problems? sure, but the good far outweigh the bad. And can we please stop with the generilzation that the US is in some sort of meltdown, even if you took the U6 number ,15% of the work force is unemployed or under employed, 95% of the world would throw parades to have that number. Housing values where I live, are pretty close to pre-08 levels, construction is booming in Boston. Alot of people have had to adjust their lifestyles, but people are still buying houses, getting married, having babies(that i have to constantly see on facebook).

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. "This country is and will continue to be the greatest country in the history of civilization."

You need to get out more.

Try Tahiti.

[crimson77]

31. My nana's canasta team could take them over, I meant of the superpowers.

But I'd go Turks and Caicos, if we are going smaller.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

42. No, actually my response was directed at the "civilization" part.

Because we tend to define "civilization" as "making money" which is further defined lately as not being civil to one another.

Don't mind me, I'm old enough to remember the phrase, "It was a pleasure doing business with you."

[crimson77]

44. Top of the morning to you, good sir.

[LanternWaste]

110. In what specific context?

"greatest country in the history of civilization..."

In what specific context? Health? Education? Happiness? etc..

[crimson77]

118. I know where you are going to go with this.

I am not going to answer that question because your going to come at me with polls or statistics, that show Finland has the highest level of happines or or that everyone is covered in name your overtaxed euro country.

Name one country that is better through history? Name one other that could have accomplished what Curiosity did last night?

[NYC_SKP]

26. Your retirement savings didn't disappear. They were redistributed.

Terrific post.

K/R

[indepat]

35. The out-of-control MIC, of which Ike warned us, and a chillingly regressive tax scheme, perpetrated

with much malice of forethought, account for most of the reasons the USA ranks at or near the bottom in all quality-of-life ranking factors among industrialized nations. The power-brokers view these as small prices to pay in order to gorge the MIC and the uber-wealthy, including large corporations. Fascism is here in its purist form imo.

[thelordofhell]

36. I always say it and I always get shit for it, but here it goes again

It should be illegal to make a profit off of the military

[Honeycombe8]

37. There is no military budget. Do you mean Dept of Defense?

If so....there is another post in DU complaining about the pittance his mother got as pension from being a VA widow.

So, which side do you fall on? Good pension and other benefits for Vets and their families? Or a large DOD budget? Which is it for you?

[Starry Messenger]

39. k&r

[revolution breeze]

46. Hubby retired from the Navy

When he went to the VA for assistance finding a job, he was told he needed to have a complete physical and be evaluated by VA physicians. The next day he had an EKG, bloodwork, X-rays and met with a psychiatrist. The next day he was to meet the physician who told him before he even examined hubby or opened his chart "You are 80% disable and you are eligible for retraining. What did you do in the Navy?" Hubby said he worked on computers and the doctor responded "Well, you have to accept your claim or the VA will lose funding and will not be able to help others." Hubby found a job that week and went to work. Six months later the VA sent him a letter telling him he could go back to school to learn to repair ........ computers! His friend collects retirement and disability and the GI bill. He was a boatswainmate and never thought about what he would do after his Navy life. He recently got his medical marijuana card and is studying wildlife photography. All this falls under the military budget!

[99th_Monkey]

49. And that doesn't even take into account the "Black Budget"

http://exopolitics.org/Report-Black-Budget.htm

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_sociopol_blackbudget.htm

I don't know much about these sites, but have no reason to disbelieve
that there IS such a budgetary black hole, full of unsavory activities
that cannot endure the light of day.

[happyslug]

82. The "Black Budget" is included, it is buried in the Defense Budget somewhere.

From what I have been told, the budget of the CIA and NSA are included in the Defense budget, but is hidden in the form of padding certain items. For example the Army may be budgeted for 10,000 new rifles, but only really buys 8000, the money for the other 2000 rifles is money for the "Black Budget". Ships, Planes are believed to be the main way the budget is hidden, i.e 10 planes but only 8 are purchased. More likely it is something like 10 planes are set to be rebuilt, but instead none are, the money is part of the "Black Budget". Congress knows of the slight of hand and approves the "Black Budget" in a secret session including the changes in the Defense Budget to reflect the "Black Budget" but the total is included in the Defense Budget (Through could be in other parts of the Budget, we are talking about something that is classified and thus no way to know unless you have the needed secret classification, something I do not have and the people who do will not comment).

[99th_Monkey]

94. What about the $2.3 Trillion that Donald Rumsfeld said was missing?

"The technology revolution has transformed organizations across the private sector, but not ours, not fully, not yet. We are, as they say, tangled in our anchor chain. Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building because it's stored on dozens of technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible."
- Remarks as Delivered by Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, The Pentagon, Monday, Septembe

http://solari.com/archive/missing_money
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6674130&mesg_id=6674238

[happyslug]

115. Could be, but the 2.3 Trillion is one of many years if not decades.

The "Black Budget" could be in there, but most likely elsewhere and the 2.3 Trillion is just "lost", i.e. can trace where it went. Probably spent for what it was intended (or looted if that was the intention) but do to the terrible accounting system of the Defense Department, untraceable.

[madrchsod]

50. my brother in law died before he could get his disability payments

he had great care at the va/uw hospital in madison wi. he tried and tried to find out when he was going to get his disability payments. his best friend died 3 weeks before him of the same type of cancer and he never received his disability either. i guess agent orange does`t cause cancer so one can`t get disability. or maybe they just wait long enough so you die before they cut the check.this is just the Vietnam guys.. there`s two new generations from the oil wars that will be coming into the system.

take half of that budget to help the guys and gals who will be filling up the hospitals,clinics, and disabled services instead spending an obscene amount of money on shit that does`t work.

[truedelphi]

54. One part of the puzzle that you are leaving unmentioned is

That Any Presidential Administration's accomplishments occur because of appointments.

Obama appointed Tim Geithner to his current position as head of the US Treasury. He did this immediately after the period of time in which good ol Tim had maneuvered the various Federal Bailout programs around, in his capacity to do so as the Head of the NY fed. This meant he made major decisions as to which firms went under, like Lehman Bros, and which firms like AIG and Goldman Sachs got the lion's share of the rewards of the various TARP and tax programs helping the "Too Big to Fail" crowd.

Also, Obama has re-appointed Bernanke to continue in his role as head of the US Federal Reserve. We now know through the "peek" we got at the working s of the Fed Reserve brought about by the audit of the Fed that some 4 to 16 trillions of dollars have gone from the Fed to the "Too Big To Fail" crowd, some of which to went to Big Banks not even inside the boundaries of this nation.

So you would think, with all the generosity floating around, that maybe when the governor of the state of California, one Arnold Schwartzennegger, made the request to Geithner that the state BE LOANED some twenty billions of dollars, that maybe the request would be granted. After all, this state of 37 million people has coughed up huge amounts of monies for the Federal Government, with only 73 cents of every dollar sent to Washington DC coming back to the citizens here.

But Geithner, having the power to do this, said No. He added that this sum would hurt the nation's deficit.

Then the people of the state of Calif., realizing that within their boundaries is the remarkable ability to supply a worthwhile plant for domestic medical needs started putting together the medical marijuana clinic programs. Even though this program was set back by almost every jurisdiction demanding many meetings with the activists behind the medical marijuana implementation,
entailing discussion of zoning, road use, curfews, useage of property that the clinics was on (for instance, clinics can supply the substance,but it cannot be smoked out in the parking lots or nearby, but must be taken to residents' homes.) Over the years all that gets hashed out (no pun intended.) It wasn't simply that voters voted it the medical marijuana provisions. But that the activists spent long dreary hours putting it together.

And Obama at first respected the states' rights issues involved. But once the program was going full force, providing some 8 thousand jobs to people,and pulling in some 125 millions of dollars into the beleagured treasury of the state of Calif., what happens? Why, Obama does his old Swicheroo tactic, and lets the DOJ and IRS descend on the clinics.

So leaving out the discussion of what the President has done sure makes it all seem like some distant entity needs to be dealt with. But it is an election year. Maybe somebody can get Obama to actually reverse his bad decisions. (Bruce Springsteen, you have his ear, don't you? Can't you twist his arm a bit, saying no more concerts for the Oval Office if the Tom and Thomasina Joads of the USA don't get some help from Geithner?) And sop, Mr President,loan the states that have troubling deficits money directly rather than having these "stimulus packages" that require so much massage on the parts of so many. Just have Geithner give the states the damn money Mr President. And get the DOJ to go away and stop punishing those running the medical marijuana clinics in various states.

I realize that this means maybe Obama won't get the money he is counting on for campaign pledges from Big Pharma, and from Big Bankers (who profit greatly from the laundering of illegal drug monies.) It also won't win him favors from the privatized Big Prison industry. But it might get people who have been hurt by the Geithners of your administration to forgive you, to be enthused about you. Believe me, Mr Obama, people living in their cars who understand the situation are not going to worry that much about finding their polling place on election day, when you haven't been finding solutions that are readily available to you, through the arms of the various officials you have appointed.

[dreamnightwind]

71. Great post

The appointments say it all. Campaign on hope and change, then appoint the usual suspects to run things. That's about all there was to hope and change, empty campaign sloganeering.

The Republicans in congress had meetings with Bernanke to lobby him against providing assistance to states. So it could be claimed that it's the Republican's fault, but as you point out, Arnold couldn't get help from Geithner, who Obama appointed, also Obama kept Bernanke running the Fed, and there was very little if any pushback on Bernanke from our party to implement policies that would benefit the non-rich.

Amazing how the apologists around here overlook Obama's appointments, or suggest he couldn't have gotten better people confirmed. It's B.S., he appointed most of those people because they're his guys. 2nd term, if we're lucky enough to get one, will be pretty much the same. Great for the big corporations, MIC, prison systems, health insurance companies, big pharma, Wall St., not so great for the rest of us.

[Ikonoklast]

57. Go away.

Boring talking points are boring.

Truth matters no to people like you.

[blkmusclmachine]

60. +1

[Crowman1979]

61. And when people suggest cutting military spending, the Teabaggers throw a shit fit!

[xchrom]

63. Kick. Nt

[Cryptoad]

64. Funny how that works,,

we dont have money to take care of all the wounded vets cause of this kinda crap!

[JonLP24]

66. Nice to see you again unhappy

Love your threads. K&R.

[Octafish]

67. ''Money trumps peace.''

Last edited Sun Aug 5, 2012, 10:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Pretzeldent George W Bush, Feb. 14, 2007

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1095133&mesg_id=1095549

On behalf of Detroit and Michigan and the United States of America, thank you, UnhappyCamper!

[lib2DaBone]

69. We spent $80 Billion over 10 years to re-build Afghanistan Electric grid and schools....

We spent $20 Million to train the Iraq Police who no longer want to be involved.. but not a dime for roads, schools and electric grid at home.
______________________
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/19/us-usa-aid-idUSTRE7BI1KO20111219

The legislation provides $42.1 billion in regular funding for the State Department and foreign aid in 2012, which is a cut of more than $6 billion from the 2011 level.

But when another $11.2 billion in war-related foreign aid for Afghanistan and Iraq is added in, such as money for counterterrorism and humanitarian assistance, the total for 2012 is $53.3 billion. That total is actually an increase of some $5 billion over the comparable amount for 2011

[magic59]

72. We the people don't get crap from that military spending

I could care less what goes on off our shores, I need the military like I need a hemorrhoid.
Corporations and the rich elite need police to guard their goods overseas. The arms dealers need the contracts to fatten their overseas bank accounts that also need guarding by the world police (AKA US military). Just too bad they don't pay any taxes to support the world police.
We the people pay the whole bill, just more corporate welfare.

[MrMickeysMom]

75. THANK YOU...

I feel you've reached many and certainly ME.

kicking, plus I'm gonna cut and paste that sourced chart for my Republican "friends".

[DonCoquixote]

76. One point that gets missed

One would think that wars are waged to be WON. It is an easy assumption, but a false one. Alllow me to show an example.

Let us say thay, a week after Saddam went to the Gallows, we left Iraq. We could have said, for all the Hell the war was, our opponent was Dead. That would have been a point to cut losses, rather than face guerilla forces that are funded by everyone who fills a gas tank, including and especially ourselves. We would have left just before that one last round at the Casino tables of History.

Now, why did we not? Because it would have cost the MIC Billions, especially the one Cheney loved and nutured back to health with war money.

Why is it that none bring up the fact that is the elephant in the room on every issue from education to prisons to yes, even war: a corporation does NOT have to do anything it claims it does well to make a profit. Indeed, if it can PROFIT from the very problem it claims to solve, it can and will try to make that problem worse, as it has what James Madison called "a vested interest in disorder."

This is the real terror of money in politics. If you were running Al Qaida, or the People's Republuc of China, or Iran, you would want everything to stay AS IS, because the USA is investing in strategies that will not only make them unable to win a war, but also allow you to get rich. All it takes is to send some money to get Mitt elected. It used to be that such an op would require spies, the sort that knew they could end up killed if caught.

Now, we have our own traitors, called billionaires.

"When treason doth prosper, none dare call it treason." A. Pope.

[RKP5637]

78. What the bullies of the world spend the most on ... MIC ... and corporate welfare. n/t

[HCE SuiGeneris]

81. Well done.

Thank you for articulating the truth so engagingly.

A brilliant OP.

[happyslug]

83. I have to disagree, but excluding non-discretionary spending, this chart is missing half the budget.

The Chart does NOT include the following:
Non-discretionary spending:
$820 billion (22%) Social Security payments
$811 billion (21%) Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP payments
$246 billion ( 6%) interest on the National Debt
$583 billion (15%) other ‘mandatory’ payments (including TARP)

The does include the following:

Discretionary spending:
$700 billion (18%) national defense
$565 billion (15%) other ‘discretionary spending’
$ 97 billion ( 3%) Overseas Contingency Operations (war supplemenetals)

The Chart also does NOT include the following:
Revenues:

$1,294 billion (34%) individual income taxes
$990 billion (26%) social insurance (FICA/Medicare)
$365 billion (10%) corporate income taxes
$234 billion ( 6%) other taxes & duties
$901 billion (24%) budget deficit

[SaveAmerica]

84. 57% to send them to A'stan 5% to fix them when they return

I'll look for a link to the pie chart, it's good to share i think.

[tex-wyo-dem]

91. What's really disgusting is to think...

How much good could have been done with those trillions and trillions of $$$ poured into the MIC over the decades. Scientific research, healthcare, infrastucture, environmental projects, poverty, job creation, education (the list goes on and on)...you know, stuff that would actually benefit all of us instead of a few 1%ers and the blackhole that is war.

If we spent half as much on military and re-distributed that money to the things that really matter, the US would be the unquestioned leader in almost everything and the envy of the world.

[Egalitarian Thug]

98. Indeed +1. The numbers are right there, from independent NGO's to the U.N.

It would be far cheaper to provide for everyone than to finance the military forces to say "No".

And here's the question none of them answer, even on the rare occasion it is asked, "Exactly who is it that they expect is going to attack us and how is the world's largest military, built to fight two simultaneous wars against foreign national militaries that haven't existed in half a century, going to be of any use in defending us against the most likely threats that do exist?"

[libodem]

99. Yeah

Raytheon and the Pentagon
Danced out in the pale moonlight
And when they were done
Neither one could come
So they just screwed the people for fun.

[baldguy]

100. We used to call these people "war profiteers", and when we caught them they got hung for treason.

[allan01]

106. re:Fucking Welfare Queens,dont get me started on ssdi

then people need to be knowcked off of it . also it took me 5 fucking years with my team to get me on. and even those damn high priced lawyers at berg didnt help so fu

[Madmiddle]

107. Senators and Congressman

profit from this budget.

[Stuart G]

116. K and R nt. thanks for posting

[Initech]

117. We spend more on defense than the next 50 countries combined.

Fuck these assholes. I've won more wars in games of Civilization V than they have in the last thirty years. Isn't it time we told the MIC to take a hike?

[sabrina 1]

127. And they tell us, we are still not safe. I would call that an historically expensive, spectacular

failure from the POV of the American people who are paying for it.

[Initech]

129. Yup - it's a classic false sense of security. That's what the MIC offers.

[cbrer]

126. But these Queens have such huge teats

And a correspondingly huge percentage of the global population makes their living off of those grand nipples.

So what if it defiles international and federal law.

And wastes hundreds of thousands of lives.

And puts our great grandchildren in debt.

And pushes human progress back to the pace during the dark ages.

If we don't have these incredibly enormous, colossal, vast, monstrous entities, YOU don't love America!