Can we stop with the outrage at non and 3rd party..

[TheSocialDem]

Voters? And can we awknowledge that if the GOP wasn’t purging voter rolls, implementing voter ID laws, gerrymandering the country’s districts, and and working with, if not being complacent with, Russia’s campaign to swing all our elections to the republicans, Hillary would be president, by a landslide.

There has always been people who don’t vote or vote 3rd party but they are not the reason trump got installed, in fact I Russia played a huge role in turning undecideds away from the Democratic ticket with the Bernie bro naritive and perpetuating and inflaming divisions within the Democratic Party.

In fact, those same people who I’ve seen berated all over this forum are the same people who we need to convince to vote for Dems in future elections, because God knows the trumpets and remaining republican voters will never switch to the Democratic Party, and I put that block of voters in America at about 35%.

I’m tired of us putting all the blame on them when if the game wasn’t already rigged by the REPUBLICANS with help from RUSSIA, we would have no problem winning without their votes.

It’s been a rough week, but let’s call a spade a spade and direct the blame, and our energy and outrage, where it really belongs.

[cynatnite]

1. Um...no. n/t

[wryter2000]

45. +1 n/t

n/t

[Cosmocat]

59. yeah

nm

[Gothmog]

117. Agreed

The answer to the OP is a clear NO

[Fresh_Start]

2. The people you are worried about are not on DU

so they are safe from our written disdain.

[TheSocialDem]

7. It just doesn't seem productive

They are towards the bottom of my list in allocating blame for this shit show

[Fresh_Start]

12. It might help other people even if it doesn't help you

Cursing and other things have been shown to be stress relievers...and I'm doing a lot of cursing over the current situation. I think you should look at it in that light.

People can yell, scream, curse...as long as they are also doing something to help turn this ship.

[JCanete]

114. I don't see that here. I see people deciding who their enemies are based on any affiliations.

If a progressive democrat is endorsed by Sarandon or anybody else who people here would like to say fuck you to, people here say the stupidest shit about that being reason enough for them to not support that person.

This is ginning up division because it is pervasive. Every day somebody needs to say "let me just say ...fuck so and so..." so that everybody can participate in the same circle jerk again? Plus oneing something that is just redundant over and over and over? Do people at this point not know who agrees with them on these boards about this? Does this not suck out some of the oxygen in the forum that could be spent on more productive material?

[Cha]

149. Too bad you don't like the FECKLESS FUCKING LIARS stein

and saranDon being called out for their part in enabling Russia to steal the election from Hillary and Us.

Link to tweet

Stupid Fucks are going to do it again in 2020.

[LanternWaste]

18. Then we can expect all your posts to achieve productivity?

Or is this simply another case of holding others to a higher standard than you hold yourself to?

I'm guessing it's the latter, as calling anything a "shit show" is simply not productive...




I'm also guessing a rather lazy distinction lacking any relevant difference will be made.

[lapucelle]

122. They need to take responsibility and apologize. N/T

[Cha]

146. Tough crap.. the FUCKING LIARS stein and sarandon who

enabled Russia to steal the election from Hillary and Us are at the top of my fucking list. They need to be held Accountable.

They are going to do it Again in 2020.

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Stupid FUCkS.. and they're going to do it again in 2020.

[Gothmog]

118. The persons who the OP is worried about are busy on JPR spewing hate

JPR is a russian troll hate site. There are a number of threads on the greatest page of that site that are disgusting. These idiots hate Hillary Clinton, people who voted for Hillary Clinton and people who post on this website (we are called site SV by these morons). I am not going to link to this hate site but go read the hate filled threads on the greatest page

For example this post is the top post on that hate site's greatest page

I'm going to say it
F##K EVERYONE who voted for Hillary Clinton.

I don’t care why you voted for her. I don’t care if you loved the fact that she was an oligarch or liked her hideous yelling voice or her laughing about mass murder or justified her vote even though she was less liberal than Goldwater or she somehow “inspired” you (what the hell is up with that anyway – are you 8 years old who believes that being married to a mediocre President somehow makes YOU qualified?). Unless you were too ill or otherwise physically incapable of voting or your vote was suppressed, fuck everyone who voted for the useless candidate who already LOST once and couldn’t “win” the second time without blatantly STEALING the nomination

I edited the f-word out.

Here is another gem

Every hateful shriek of blame makes me more proud of my vote
Hey feckless resistance cunts, you don’t own my mind, body, soul, or vote. Until you accept that, and make meaningful adjustments to inspire people to vote for your platform and candidates, YOU are the ones f##king the world with your choices.

We are not going to reason with these hate mongers.

[GoCubsGo]

3. There was plenty of blame to go around.

But, yes. Time to end the blame game and move forward. Rehashing the 2016 election is a waste of precious time and energy.

[Mariana]

81. Except for Trump voters. They bear no responsibility whatsoever

for the catastrophe that is the Trump administration, to listen to some people here.

[stevenleser]

109. Nope, that has never been said. nt

[Mariana]

152. "I don't blame Republican voters."

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=10789965

[Cha]

151. Bull.. Suckers for trump are always getting raked over

to coals.. And, the LIES of stein and sarandOn

Stupid 3rd party Fucks are going to do it again in 2020

[Ninsianna]

184. I will indeed blame them, especially the ones who were pretending to be

such pure progressives and whose votes proved them to be merely racists, misogynists and right wingers as so many here pointed out they were before they pranced off to the other place to stew in their hateful venom.

[cry baby]

4. Nope nt

[Wounded Bear]

5. Enjoy your stay...

[JCanete]

116. Uncalled for. nt

[Wounded Bear]

147. Your opinion is duly noted...

but irrelevent to mine.

[Wwcd]

6. But political guru Cenk just tweeted that Hillary was a terrible candidate That's why we have Trump.

Can't even tell you how many time I've seen that same reason given on this site alone.
I've no problem laying blame back on those who repeat that falsehood they happily flooded social media with when this country was at the brink of being turned over to fascism or being salvaged.

[Me.]

63. And This Is The Answer To That Russian Loving Guy

harry (Harry Enten, senior political writer): The case, as far as I see it, is twofold: First, the number of votes cast for Stein in the three states that proved to be pivotal (Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin) exceeded Trump’s margin of victory over Clinton.”

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jill-stein-democratic-spoiler-or-scapegoat/

[Wwcd]

69. There it is, ME. The margin of non Dem voters via 3rd party &

Putinsteins, fringe & juvenile minded idiots treating this critical moment in time as tho they were choosing NFL draft picks brought this country to its knees.

[KPN]

86. So go blame those people. Stop blaming

imaginary offenders here at Du. It only comes across as innuendos and accusations, especially towards people who supported Sanders in the primary and those that push for a more aggressive approach on the economic front. It’s of no benefit here. Scapegoating is never a positive endeavor within any group.

[Wwcd]

130. I did blame them. Why would you bring bernies name into this thread about Cenk?

You said, " blame them".

I did blame them.

Wtfever

[KPN]

171. Blame is nothing but negative energy.

[Wwcd]

174. Haaaahaa....rofl. What was my question again?

How bout a happy face..better?

[KPN]

175. I don't know.

[Wwcd]

176. I know you don't know. Its ok.

[KPN]

180. ........

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

158. It never ends.

[KPN]

170. I would ignore it if I didn't think it was harmful.

I have 3 adult kids who were Bernie supporters. Only one of them voted despite my non-stop arm-twisting ( fortunately we are all in deeply blue Oregon). They express concerns that I am unable to dismiss. They are not racist, they are not stupid, one of the two who didn’t vote is gay, they all have college degrees, they all work hard and honestly to support themselves. I am proud of who they are and what they stand for. Frankly, anyone who criticizes them is criticizing me — and off base. I could go on. Suffice it to say blaming people like my adult kids — which is exactly what they are doing in effect — is self-defeating. It angers me ... especially coming from what I consider my own.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

182. I hear ya KPN! Appreciate the post... guess I take comfort in knowing Bernie is winning...

the political argument, while bringing enormous attention to serious Progressive issues he and his supporters care about, which, no doubt, will reverse the misfortunes of that Nazi tRump.

[LonePirate]

8. Not a chance in hell that I will not be outraged by the selfish ignorance of non & 3rd party voters.

[Garrett78]

9. Given how close several states were, any one of numerous factors could have made the difference.

The main factors were Russian interference, Comey's last minute announcement, voter suppression, and the mainstream media (people like Andrea Mitchell could not stop talking about Clinton's emails and drawing false equivalencies).

I'd list all of those above Sanders, Sanders surrogates, 3rd party voters and non-voters. Most who didn't vote don't ever vote, and most 3rd party voters simply wouldn't have voted at all if there wasn't a 3rd party candidate to vote for.

Sanders made some sharp attacks, but that always happens in primaries.

Sanders has some pretty awful surrogates, but the people they would have influenced probably weren't ever going to vote for Clinton. So, again, they fall pretty far down the list.

[TheSocialDem]

36. Those are some other big factors I forgot to mention.. nt

[Wellstone ruled]

51. Hmmm.

Guess you forgot how Jesse Ventura and his Campaign Manager pulled the wool over the eyes of tons of fellow Minnesotan's. He literally cut the nuts of Skippy by avoiding anything DFL,all he did was promise a hundred dollar check for your vote.

Now that you third Party failed to garner enough votes to stay viable,maybe someone at Central Committee will listen to the Likes of Walz and Ellison,you can shut out the Fransen's in your state.

[brush]

131. One other: A certain candidate didn't concede for 8 weeks after...

it was over.

Let's not kid ourselves. That influenced thousands of voters.

[wonkwest]

91. +1 for truth and honesty

Sanders was not the problem in that election.

For all the Bernie Bros narrative - as it has been explained time and time again - more Sanders voters moved over to Clinton than Clinton voters moved over to Obama.

But that's a hard, uncomfortable truth that works against the hippie punching narrative, so it goes unacknowledged. When you cite it, you can almost see the other person blink hard through the computer screen before their id takes over, discards the information, and carries on the emotionally-driven narrative.

So. Damn. Frustrating.

[Garrett78]

93. "more Sanders voters moved over to Clinton than Clinton voters moved over to Obama"

I've never heard that or seen evidence of that. But I don't suppose it matters all that much.

[wonkwest]

95. There was a poll done about it

Don't quote me on the specific numbers here - I'm working from memory - but it was something like only 11% of Sanders voters didn't vote for Clinton, while 25% of Clinton voters didn't go for Obama.

I was reading a Vox article the other day that called Ocasia a "Sanders acolyte." Pissed me right the hell off. Clinton has her acolytes too. And they just will not. let. this. go.

[lapucelle]

138. Yes, it has been explained and analyzed by experts.

"This is a huge hypothetical, of course. Clinton’s losses in the Rust Belt, which cost her an electoral college majority, can be attributed to many factors. And a lot depends on the exact number of Sanders supporters who did not vote for her.

Two surveys estimate that 12 percent of Sanders voters voted for Trump. A third survey suggests it was 6 percent."

snip==============================

"Another useful comparison is to 2008, when the question was whether Clinton supporters would vote for Barack Obama or John McCain (R-Ariz.) Based on data from the 2008 Cooperative Campaign Analysis Project, a YouGov survey that also interviewed respondents multiple times during the campaign, 24 percent of people who supported Clinton in the primary as of March 2008 then reported voting for McCain in the general election."

snip=======================================

However,

"[The political scientist Brian Schaffner analyzed the Cooperative Congressional Election Study and] generated some state-level estimates, which G. Elliott Morris quickly noted were large enough to exceed Trump’s margin of victory in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania."

Link to tweet

"Even if we assume that the overall percentage of Sanders supporters who voted for Trump was 6 percent and not 12 percent, and assume therefore that we can cut every state estimate in half, the estimated number of Sanders-Trump voters would still exceed Trump’s margin of victory. But again, attach a lot of caveats to that analysis."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.7c47a84de699

[wonkwest]

148. Thank you for the data

I was working from memory, but you provided the things. I appreciate it.

[Cha]

154. "hippie punching" GMAFB.

[wonkwest]

161. Whose side are you on?

Besides the popular one at the time.

[Cha]

162. All you have are ignorant personal attacks.

You really have no idea what you're talking about.

[wonkwest]

163. You answer no questions

Care to?

[Cha]

164. You are absolutely clueless with your personal attack.

[wonkwest]

165. You say words with no meaning

I didn't personally attack. I caught you hated Hillary, then you loved her, then hated Sanders, and now . . .

Why does your opinion hold weight? Explain your thought process. You just say things. I don't know what your political stances are. Hillary was the devil, now she's good. Liberalism was awesome, now they're all demons.

What, exactly, is your purpose at this point?

[Cha]

166. Yes you did.. own it. i expect an apology.

[wonkwest]

167. Don't

I see right on through your silliness.

Inconsequential "Heeee-eeey" is fun on facebook. Less so on a serious political board.

But. You do you.

I'm going to keep addressing the issues. Cute, though. In that way.

[Cha]

168. Yeah, I really didn't think you would own up to your personal attack.

So not really expecting apology for your ignorant insult.

[Hekate]

169. That's a startling bit of re-written long-ago DU history.

What was your name back then?

By the way, jmho and all that, but the term "hippie punching" is so retro as to be risible.

[wonkwest]

186. Reading is a thing

Punching Left (hippie punching) has always been a thing.

So why bother with it? Why be invested in it?

Who's actually being divisive at this point?

[WhiteTara]

10. I will never stop being outraged. But,

I can do two things at one time. Through my outrage, I am working even harder to save our democracy. But until they say, mea culpa, no and F them and their horses and colts.

[Orsino]

11. This very selective outrage is weird.

Third-party voters were numerically insignificant next to Trumpers. The nonvoters deserve more blame, though not all of them were actually able to cast ballots. Sixty million eagerly (or reluctantly) pulling the lever for Trump were the largest factor, and we need not look much farther for explanations.

Maybe DUers think that third-party voters are more likely to read posts here, and they're probably right about that.

[Fresh_Start]

19. I think that Trumpers have proven themselves to be bigots and idiots

The third party voters are definitionally protest voters...they could have done the right thing because they weren't blinded by bigotry

[Orsino]

23. And there weren't enough third-party to make them a big factor.

Pinning a victory margin of under a hundred thousand votes entirely on a few times more third-partiers, when there were a hundred million Trump- and non-voters, is weird.

[Hekate]

78. Here is the role they play: their presence in a rigged campaign is to give the APPEARANCE ....

...of a narrow victory or narrow loss.

[LeftInTX]

41. We have the JPR group who probably read posts here

I got the impression that many of them on DU didn't vote for Obama either.

I think many want to the capitalist US to "to fail", so that "The Revolution" will begin.

Susan Saranwrap could care less...she's rich

[shanny]

65. I agree.

And I also wonder why no one ever mentions the Libertarian votes Gary Johnson pulled in (3x as many as Stein, and no doubt mostly from tRump), and also omit discussion of the approx 8 million Obama-to-Trump voters (racists all, no doubt).

[Mariana]

88. Someone posted outright the other day, "I don't blame Republican voters,"

and then proceeded to raise hell about all these people who didn't vote for Trump. It's really weird.

[NYC Liberal]

92. Nonsense. Stein received more votes than Trump's margin in several states.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/308353-trump-won-by-smaller-margin-than-stein-votes-in-all-three

[Orsino]

185. And pretending that Clinton would have won had Stein not run is still a non sequitur.

Stein voters were numerically insignificant compared to the 100 million Trump- and non-voters.

Sure, blame anyone who could have voted and didn't vote Clinton to some degree--I agree with that--but there were far larger voting blocs than Stein's which had far greater impact. Stein ballots mattered no more than votes going to anyone else.

Such selective outrage is weird.

[MrsCoffee]

13. Fuck no. Next question.

[NurseJackie]

29. ...

[R B Garr]

37. .........

[smirkymonkey]

44. Thank YOU!

[jrthin]

14. NO! Never forget, in hopes of never making the same mistake.

[TheFrenchRazor]

101. what mistake? the mistake of counting on your opponents to drop out so the dem can win? yeah,

if only dems wouldn't keep making that same mistake.

[Cha]

159. The same "mistake" of being SUCKERED in by FUCKING FECKLESS

stein's and sarandOn's LIES.. that MISTAKE.

Link to tweet

The STUPID FUCKS are Going to Do IT Again in 2020.

[Cha]

160. Yeah, that's one reason to Shame their LIES.. maybe

some of their previous Suckers will get WOKE in 2020.

[FSogol]

15. I keep seeing threads like this. Do some people have guilty consciences?

[Locutusofborg]

16. Hell No

There are many in that cohort whose hatred of the Democratic Party and ALL it stands for is palpable. There are some who would actually prefer Trump to Clinton even at this point. I, for one, will continue to attack and shame them every chance I get.

[world wide wally]

17. I think that shaming them isn't the worst thing we can do

They will have the same choice to make in the future. It should not be a comfortable decision to oppose what is best for the country and put your foolish pride aside.

[Cha]

157. Exactly, WWW.. they need to be shamed just

like anybody who LIES for Profit.

They're going to do it again in 2020.

Link to tweet

[Blue_Tires]

20. The 3rd party/stay home crowd isn't solely to blame

but like it or not they do share a huge chunk of it. They knew what was at stake but it was more important for them to keep their liberal 'purity' intact and as a result, a century of progressive legislation is not only on the chopping block as we speak, we now have to deal with a Biblically justified ethnic cleansing operation...

Anyway, cry me a river -- In my younger and dumber days I was a big Nader 2000 guy and I took ten times the shit that these fragile leftbros are getting today...

[LW1977]

21. No.

Fuck those Trump enablers.

[mrgorth]

22. We have to have enough votes

to counteract their cheating. That's part of the point. I don't really care for Hillary. But I'd rather have a team of Hillary clones running things as opposed to this madman.

[marble falls]

24. Those idiots didn't vote or voted for Trump to display their outrage. They're too ...

stupid to worry about.

[moriah]

25. No. They already forgot the lesson of the 2000 election, whereas die-hard Rs...

... voted for fucking Trump, even though in their primary there was so much fecal flinging and NeverTrumpers it's amazing he got anyone he campaigned against to help him, because they haven't forgotten 1992.

We can't forget again.

[moriah]

103. You really think Dems are violating every principle they stand for?

Which ones? Which Dems? Which principles? Examples, please.

Edit to add: or are you suggesting that you believe Hillary would have been a "democratic Trump"

[Cha]

155. Whatever it was.. they sound brainwashed bad.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

26. I called out...

My own son and my granddaughter for writing in Bernie’s name on their ballot.

I supported Bernie in the primary but went Hillary full bore for the election.

If I can call out my own with distain and outrage, can I not do the same to others?

BTW, we’re ok now. Love does conquer.

[Cobalt Violet]

27. I tune them out but I'm sick of it too.

It's not at all productive. Whining on the internet doesn't really do anything.

[bettyellen]

46. Ironically unproductive post!

[Cobalt Violet]

50. just expressing my agreement with the op.

Don't like it? Move on.

[bettyellen]

80. Just noting the amusing circular reasoning going on, I liked it...

Needed a good laugh today. Thanks!

[Cobalt Violet]

141. get a life

[bettyellen]

187. Cranky and bossy today? HA

[Cobalt Violet]

190. no, just not into being trolled 2 days in a row.

[bettyellen]

191. Same!

[NY_20th]

28. No.

No rational person should still need convincing. Lives are being destroyed. Our Democracy is being destroyed.

I'm only going to spend my time on people who care, and people who know what is at stake. Not selfish people who still think they need to be coddled.

[progressoid]

30. DU needs something to punch. And this is what we do...

?itemid=9295569

[JHan]

31. Nope, won't stop. And my reasons for this? ...

the lesson they need to learn is to stop being the useful idiots of Republicans. Republicans have long learned how to fracture the dem base and exploit fractures in the Democratic coalition.

And yes, the Republicans are gaming the system, but they're getting help -

Voting out of "protest" whatevertheF that is, not voting, treating the Presidency like you would a consumer product instead of understanding what civic action really means, understanding that it's not just about "you" ( and that is the collective you) are important lessons they need to learn.

I am tired of Fifth columnists fucking things up for everyone, it's bad enough having to fight Republican chicanery.

[Cattledog]

32. No, that's what they said in 2000.

And now we have Trump.

[Squinch]

33. What are you? The 50th brand new poster telling us who we can be mad at?

Or maybe 60th.

[TheSocialDem]

136. Nah, not new, haven't posted in a while, but not new

Just expressing an opinion on the newly resurfacing trend I believe to be counterproductive and misguided in terms of accomplishing our shared goal of a more progressive America, or more relevant at the moment, getting people to vote democratic in November

[LeftInTX]

34. I blame the stay at home crowd

Unfortunately, they do not read DU.

They tend to somewhat politically apathetic.

They liked Obama, they didn't like Hillary.

They aren't even aware of recent SC decisions or that Kennedy is retiring.

I also blame the media...

I blame stupid Trump voters in the heartland who are like Reagan Democrats. ("He's gonna save our jobs!!&quot

The protest voters, the protest non-voters, Green Party did not decide this election. They exist in every election and with the exception of 2000 their votes did not throw elections

It was apathy and voters who thought Trump would make their lives better....with the help of Russian Propaganda....

[Ron Obvious]

35. Didn't more Bernie voters vote for Hillary than Hillary voters voted for Obama in 2008?

Silly obsession in any case. The Democrats failed to win over independents despite outspending Trump 2:1.

[JHan]

38. I've seen this point made and I don't buy it...

And I say this not to excuse the HRC supporters in 08 who couldn't move past the primaries.

1) john mc cain is not Donald Trump. He was seen as a moderate, in fact for a good while he was liked more by center leftists than the republican base. I could better understand a Democrat voting for McCain in 08 than I could self-professed "progressives" voting in ways which would ultimately lead to the election of the most heinous individual to ascend to the presidency in decades.

2) the divisions fueled by certain actors among democrats in 2016 has had a lasting effect, as is evidenced by threads in this very forum.

The overall point though is that if these progressives really cared about their cause, they would stop being the useful idiots of Republicans.

[bettyellen]

48. all of this- I know a few friends who spewed for a whole year about HRC not being good enough, and

When you'd bring up the Supreme Court they'd shrug and laugh. So, the wounds have reopened. We need some truth and reconsilliation from the progressives who spread russian and RW propaganda- because they were very vocal and visible, they had an agenda. ANd they still want to advise us after this clusterfuck. Just nope.

[Wwcd]

57. Thank You.

Says it all.

When you'd bring up the Supreme Court they'd shrug and laugh.
So, the wounds have reopened.

We need some truth and reconsilliation from the progressives who spread russian and RW propaganda- because they were very vocal and visible, they had an agenda.
ANd they still want to advise us after this clusterfuck. Just nope.

[TheSocialDem]

62. What do you think the progressive's agenda was? Nt.

[MrsCoffee]

64. To stop Hillary Clinton from becoming president at all costs.

Now look at what it cost us.

[Wwcd]

72. Exactly. As Mueller stated in his formal findings, only 2 people bennefitted from

the influences of 2016, Dotard & Bernie.

Mueller knows what took place to undermine the US gov't & he wouldn't have publicly named these 2 had he not had the proof of truth in his hands.

[R B Garr]

172. Yes! Very well said!

[bettyellen]

82. You're welcome!

[JHan]

140. It was all a damn lie...

They actually didn't give a fuck about the issues they proclaimed to care about, it was a dominance game.

And I'm as exasperated with them as I am with Trump supporters. At least Trump supporters were clear about the ugly regressive future they wanted, but these fifth columnists? Just lies.

They claimed to want progress and they refused to do a simple ass thing on Election day to make what they said they care about a reality, and why? Because Clinton wasn't 100% of what they wanted. Because Clinton had to appeal specifically to them to "earn" their vote, on every single damn issue, on every single metric... As if the presidency and voting, in general, are shopping excursions where you pick out your perfect deodorant, soaps, toothpaste, and coffee. Instead of seeing their vote as part of social civic action to benefit society as a whole, they made it all about them.

So I'll continue to point it out while embracing those who have wisened up given the unfolding horror show. But to those unrepentantly clinging to their myopia, and determined to sabotage elections with their stupidity, I've no time for them.

[betsuni]

150. +1

[Wwcd]

55. That the millionth time I've heard that self absolving excuse.

There is no truth to that statement.

Its an excuse.

[lapucelle]

145. Sanders to Trump voters exceeded the margins of victory in WI, MI, and PA.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/08/24/did-enough-bernie-sanders-supporters-vote-for-trump-to-cost-clinton-the-election/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.6cdb3e8429f1

[greatauntoftriplets]

39. No way.

[EffieBlack]

40. No

But ain't it funny how whenever Hillary mentions any of these factors contributing to her loss, she's told to shut up, stop whining and making excuses, and take responsibility? Yet when folk point out correctly that non-voters and third party voters had a role in the election's outcome, suddenly all of these other factors become overarchingly relevant.

We see what you did there.

[TheSocialDem]

49. They had a role

But the other factors are “overarchingly relevant.” They were playing by the rules. Hillary’s loss was primarily due to actors not playing by the rules.

[Wwcd]

58. Ya. We all knew who the "actors" were. And still are today.

We also knew they weren't in it for the People's Party, the Democratic Party.

They still aren't

[EffieBlack]

74. True, but when Hillary says it she's whining and not taking responsibility nt

[lagomorph777]

42. I think Putin is behind this latest surge of 2016 wackiness.

It certainly benefits him to divide us. I suggest looking into the histories of people posting this crap.

[Caliman73]

43. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

People who did not vote, or who wasted their votes on a protest, especially in swing states, share some of the responsibility and should understand that.

It is not solely their fault and I do understand that 20 posts telling them to "fuck off" or other such niceties, is not a good thing but that happens with emotion. It is overwhelming and tends to dominate actions.

People continue to be reminded what we lost because of the cheating and the apathy. When you see people like Bernie (who I supported in the Primary), Susan Sarandon, and Cenk Uygr continuing to slam the Democratic Party it creates tension.

The focus is getting people out to vote for the Democratic Candidate regardless of whether they are Ocasio-Cortez or Joe Manchin.

[wryter2000]

47. I'm still seeing posts like this one

"How far can the left go in the Democratic party?"

The nonsense is still out there.

[link:https://www.democraticunderground.com/102413102]

[Jim Lane]

52. Can we? Yes. Will we? Alas, I predict No.

Two years from now, as we head toward the Democratic National Convention, people will be posting on DU to denounce Jill Stein and Susan Sarandon, to call their supporters morons, etc.

I'll offer a further prediction: All such posts will have a net negative effect in terms of getting more votes for the Democratic nominee in 2020.

[Beartracks]

53. I agree, but i don't think it'll stop.

[sarah FAILIN]

54. Hell isn't that cold

People make choices, they accept the blame for them.

[Music Man]

56. There's certainly plenty of blame to go around

From third party people, to Bernie or Bust, to Russia, to Wikileaks, to Fox News, to social media and fake news, to mistakes by Hillary Clinton and her staff, to decades of demonization of Clinton, and unfair voting laws.

But when the choice was so stark as 2016, it was time for voters to act like adults. Thousands of people who voted for Obama did not bother to turn out for Hillary this time. Why? Beats the shit out of me. Perhaps they thought she had it in the bag. Perhaps she didn't "inspire" them, whatever that means.

Do you remember when several Bernie people shouted down speakers at the DNC? Bonafide progressive people too, like Elizabeth Warren and John Lewis. It was shameful.

Sorry, but I have contempt for people who would compromise the Supreme Court, gay rights, abortion rights, a fairer economy, and a safer world because they had some personal message they had to send to Hillary Clinton or the DNC. Third party people and non-voters are not the only reason we are in the mess we're in, but they're a big one. Not voting for Clinton or sitting out altogether was an extremely immature position given the stakes, and those people should own it.

[mcar]

60. Nope

They helped to get us here. Fck 'em.

[yurbud]

61. some centrist have an inexplicable blind spot when it comes to blaming Republicans

or their own failure to attract enthusiasm & votes.

[MFM008]

66. No

Anyone who voted for ANYONE other
than our candidate can
Piss off.
You own this slimy maggot.
OWN him.

[uponit7771]

67. No, its constructive

[BumRushDaShow]

68. This is a Democratic website

for those who SUPPORT the Democratic party, not "3rd parties" and sure as hell NOT the GOP.

I don't think a single person has put "all the blame" on "3rd party" voters. Posts basically give a "perfect storm list" of things that were in play, but interestingly enough, the "3rd party" people who sneak on this site, tended to "blame the message" or "the discussion of the message" like the OP.

[TheSocialDem]

73. I've always voted down the ticket for candidates w/ a D

Next to their name, I was for Bernie but I enthusiastically voted to Hillary. And I haven’t criticized the Democratic Party or Hillary’s message at all in this post. But imo complaining about non and 3rd party voters detracts from the much more influential and devistating tactics republicans have and are implementing which are destroying the integrity of our democratic process and the country as a whole.

[BumRushDaShow]

87. IMHO

I disagree and we should be putting EVERYTHING on the table to "discuss" because one little thing "here" (voter suppression) and another little thing "there" (social media campaign), and another over yonder (3rd party votes), each by themselves may not be enough to trigger suspicion about a potential steal unless you delve deeper, which most people won't do.

Here in my city - Philadelphia - for the first time (based on my immediate available stats), 3rd party votes were TRIPLE what they were in previous Presidential elections going back to 2004. I.e., out of some 600,000+ - 700,000+ votes each Presidential election, 3rd parties only got no more than 5000 votes. EXCEPT 2016, when there were almost 15,000 of them. THAT is a red flag.

This year may have been a "one off" for that type of thing but note that PA hadn't voted for a GOP President since 1988 and the margin of victory for Drumpf here in PA was only 44,292.

The total 3rd party vote for the state in 2016 was 218,228.

In 2012, the total PA 3rd party was only 71,332. In 2008, total PA 3rd party was 62,889. In 2004, total PA 3rd party was 33,822.

So there is a BIG red flag here regarding what happened in 2016 and 3rd party votes - literally TRIPLE the previous Presidential election (both at the state and local Philadelphia election level).

[progressoid]

94. All the more reason to reach out to them rather than broadbrush all third party voters as the enemy.

[BumRushDaShow]

97. No way should anyone reach out to the 3rd parties on our 2016 Presidential ballot here in PA

Putin-embracing Jill Stein? Um no.

And the biggest 3rd party vote-getter here in PA was Gary Johnson running as a Libertarian. Libertarians are anti-Civil Rights so um, no. Ron fucking Paul was the only Congressman to vote against the 40th anniversary commemoration of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and he, with his Libertarian-embracing self (and his Libertarian-embracing son) can go to hell.

If you are someone who supports a candidate who would tell POC fuck you, I can kick you out of my restaurant because I don't like your kind, then you are no one to "reach out to". And ironically, they sure as hell don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot.

And the Constitution Party has always been a minuscule party so really not making any impact here.

[progressoid]

100. So how'd that work out in 2016?

PA has more registered D's than R's., yet donny won in PA.

If you don't want to deal with the third party voters, you better make sure your Democrats get out and vote.

[BumRushDaShow]

108. It's called "social media bullshit"

The Facebook lovers who can't seem to leave it and its insidious feeds.

"Clinton Foundation", "Clinton Emails", "Clinton bad", "Clinton War hawk".

I even saw the bullshit Sputnik news stuff posted that completely skewed a Podesta email. DU was infested with RT-humpers.

No - I will not deal with TAINTED "3rd party voters" nor will I reach out to them. I think some of the the most gullible of them have learned a lesson.

What folks need to do is "reach out" to those white so-called liberal suburban voters in blue and purple rim counties of municipalities and get them to the polls.

[progressoid]

120. Right. But I would expect you'll find those white so-called liberal suburban voters were just as

susceptible to the social media bullshit as the 3rd party voters.

[BumRushDaShow]

125. That's what I am saying.

The difference being one group acted on the bullshit, believing it lock, stock, and barrel and helped to spread it far and wide, including here on DU, and the other group sat it out not knowing (or caring) what to believe and apparently not realizing their world was going to be rocked.

[IronLionZion]

70. People who weren't smart enough to vote for Hillary/Dems are probably not worth

our time, effort, or thoughts. They're probably not going to vote Dem.

We need to work on turning out Dems, making sure our people are registered, committed, and able to vote without being suppressed by lack of new IDs or modern Jim Crow laws or purging of the voter rolls. Or discouraged by negativity and defeatism promoted by Russian trolls and exacerbated by real liberals who may have undiagnosed and untreated depression.

[tiredtoo]

71. it should be obvious to all

The best way to get others to join your cause is to call them assholes.

[NurseJackie]

75. Nope! Anyone who's stupid enough to do it the first time, is too stupid to remember...

Nope! Anyone who's stupid enough to do it the first time, is too stupid to remember NOT to do it again. They need CONSTANT reminders NOT to make the same stupid mistake. They need REAL WORLD examples (happening LIVE before their very eyes) to reinforce the lessons that they need to learn.

QUIT DEFENDING NON-VOTERS and STEIN VOTERS!! What's the attraction?

There has always been people who don’t vote or vote 3rd party but they are not the reason trump got installed,

The numbers do not support your argument. Womp-womp!

In fact, those same people who I’ve seen berated all over this forum are the same people who we need to convince to vote for Dems in future elections,

But I wonder... are those poor misunderstood "berated" people ACTUALLY spending time "all over this forum"?

It’s been a rough week, but let’s call a spade a spade and direct the blame, and our energy and outrage, where it really belongs.

Does this mean you're blaming Bernie?

[Hekate]

76. No. Next question?

[Adrahil]

77. Plenty of blame to go around. They deserve their share.

Especially those that won't acknowledge their error.

[KPN]

79. Thank you!

[chesterslick]

83. So many conspiracy theories, so little time!

However, you bring up some good points, when you say "...those same people who I’ve seen berated all over this forum are the same people who we need to convince to vote for Dems in future elections" you reveal a truth!

Many Democrats and all of Independents are issue voters. We do better on issues and we can establish a dominate and lasting majority.

[DFW]

84. IF the Republican fraud machine, IF the Russians, IF gerrymandering, IF voter purging

Yes, all that contributed. But yes, non voters and third party voters also contributed.

The difference, is that he Russians and the Republicans all smugly laugh at us and tell us FU because "nothing succeeds like success."

The non and third party voters tell us it's our/our candidate's fault. THAT is where outrage is justified.

I don't post that stuff, but I have every sympathy for those who do.

[njhoneybadger]

85. I wish I could call a spade a spade but WE have rules here.

[wonkwest]

89. The punching to the left thing is dangerous and ubiquitous here

We're about to encounter the most important midterm election of our lives. But some people just want to hit Left, hit Left, hit Left.

I know a lot of it is bitterness over the 2016 primary. Every Bernie thread here is a 300+ post hatefest. There's so much bitter, I just want to lock everyone up and make old-fashioneds.

But it's so fucking unhelpful, pointless, usually untrue, and damaging that I can barely read most days.

WTF was the hatefest on Ocasia about?! Because she liked Bernie? Quel horror! ("Don't bash Democrats!" is situational, you see).

I just cannot believe the tunnel-vision involved.

I want to post more, but it's hard, because I just cannot conceive that this bitterness and hate against the Left keeps going and going and going.

Hillary lost. She lost! For many, many reasons. Some of them *gasp* were her own.

But it's over. It's been over for nearly two god damned years.

We need unity. We need to reconstitute ourselves as a solid party and political force to be reckoned with. We need everyone. Moderates, independents, liberals, leftists.

We're fighting for our god damned lives, "But Beeeerrrrrnieeeee." Who. the fuck. cares?!

Also, Susan Sarandon is some sort of demi-goddess whose dread powers alone were enough to sway every other soul in the country.

Jesus Christ. People need to get over it, grow the fuck up, and focus on our real enemies.

[progressoid]

104. !

[Efilroft Sul]

112. Thank you.

We better focus on winning the hearts and minds of strayed Dems, nonvoters, and the independents instead of bashing them yet again and having them walk away from our Congressional candidates in the upcoming midterms. I'd rather we all point the way to making America good (huge difference compared to what the MAGA types want) in 2018 instead of pointing the finger of blame for 2016.

[wonkwest]

137. I like that phrase

"Strayed Democrats".

I just don't understand. "Let's punch them in the face some more and then demand they vote for us!" Did anyone study basic human nature?

It doesn't work. Vengeance is not persuasion. I told you so is not a policy argument. I hate you is not an invitation.

Why do people need to be told this? I know this is a partisan echo chamber - it's designed to be - but common sense should reign. At least a little bit.

[Efilroft Sul]

139. Thank you again.

And I totally agree with you. We need to build winning coalitions, starting now.

The inability of others on here to mend fences wouldn't have beaten the Nazis 75 years ago, and it's not going to defeat the New Age fascists of this generation. The threat is existential, people, and we need allies to snuff out their racism and misogyny. For crying out loud, bury the hatchet, but bury it in the GOP's backside.

[sheshe2]

90. No!

[G_j]

96. Why?

GD is great place to waste perfectly good time.

[OBrien]

98. Fuck no.

Fuck no fuck no fuck no

[TheFrenchRazor]

99. yep; many here act as if dems are ENTITLED to every left-of-center vote, regardless of their actions

or policies. they also act as if their left-of-center opponents have an obligation to just drop out of the race so that the democrat will have a (slightly) better chance of winning. not a winning strategy, i'd say.

[Trumpocalypse]

127. No but voters have a responsibility

to do what is best for their country and not self righteously waste their vote.

[Afromania]

105. Some other election maybe... This election Hell, no

DOUBLE. HELL. NO

TRIPLE. HELL. NO


This was all hands on deck because the crazies were out and you can't trust them on their word to not vote for an obviously insane person. This was not the time to play patty cake let's vote to make a point. We should not have to convince these people to vote Democratic. I mean, cmon, rigged or not this wasn't the time for all that nonsense, but some people live in their privilege enough that they can't see the big picture beyond their own little ego's.

They knew who they voted for wasn't going to win so they did so to make a point. Well they made that point and that point is now sticking us all in the ass, but we need to "convince" them not to go ahead and do this again next election????? AFTER seeing what happened this time? You telling me they need convincing not to toss their vote away to make a point when it's clear the crazies are all in for flushing the rights of women and minorities down the drain. To let democracy die in the right wing fever quest for a white nationalist dystopia??


QUADRUPLE. HELL. NO raised by the power of INFINITY.

If they need any convincing now as who to vote for and why next election. Then they are just hopeless and completely untrustworthy as a potential ally.

[Stinky The Clown]

106. Go away

[dem4decades]

107. So I'm not supposed to outraged that people voted for someone that sat

with Putin and Flynn and took votes from Clinton?

Fuck no, I'm getting more outraged everyday.

[workinclasszero]

110. Hell no, not until every evil GOP/Trump policy is reversed in full!!

/ignored

[oasis]

111. NO! Many refused to listen /said mention of SCOTUS was "blackmail".

We should be on their malcontent asses every damn day.

[stevenleser]

113. No. nt

[Gothmog]

115. Sanders voters gave trump his margin of victory

Are you happy with the recent SCOTUS rulings? http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320

Bernie Sanders supporters switched their allegiance to Donald Trump in large enough numbers last November to sway the election for the real estate billionaire, according to an analysis of voter data released Tuesday by the blog Political Wire. Since Trump’s shock victory over Hillary Clinton, much discussion has focused on the degree to which passionate Sanders supporters’ refusal to embrace Clinton led to the Republican winding up in the White House.

Here is some more https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/24/16194086/bernie-trump-voters-study

About 12 percent of Bernie Sanders supporters from the Democratic primary crossed party lines and voted for Donald Trump in the general election, a new analysis says.

In several key states — Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan — the number of Sanders to Trump defectors were greater than Trump’s margin of victory, according to new numbers released Wednesday by UMass professor Brian Schaffner.

Link to tweet

[Wwcd]

132. "Mission Accomplished"

Fools

[Codeine]

119. If you need to be "convinced" or "persuaded"

to vote for the non-fascist choice then you’re a fucking dumbshit, and by definition impervious to logic. Screw those people.

[radius777]

121. the alt-left are Trump-lite

and deserve as much scorn as the deplorables.

most are sympathetic to Trumpism/Putin, worked hard to damage Hillary, are happy Trump won, etc.

many of them either voted third-party or voted for Trump, and for the most part hold a similar xenophobic populist worldview as the alt-right.

Fuck them, they need to put on a red hat and get it over with.

They only serve to turn off the diverse and growing constituencies which make up the Obama coalition.

[seaglass]

123. I propose that all the DU posters who berate DUers for rightly placing partial blame on 3rd party

voters become the ambassadors for the Dem party to reach out to those unreliable "allies" and convince them to vote blue no matter who in 2018.

Stop complaining about what DUers post here about them and GET TO WORK!

[Wwcd]

133. We reached out in 2016, we were told to shut up & sit down

They can kma this time around

[Gothmog]

124. From my twitter feed

Link to tweet

[Trumpocalypse]

126. Odd post

For a site dedicated to supporting the Democratic Party and their candidates. Those who vote for 3rd party candidates are voting against the Democratic Party the as those who vote for republicans.

[Cha]

144. Yeah.. This is Democratic Underground.. NOT 3rd Party SHIT Underground.

[ProudLib72]

179. Hey! I used the term "Independent Underground" just the other day

WTF is going on here?

[Cha]

183. They're trying to give cover to the 3rd Party

RFs who will be RFing again in 2020.

Trying to shutdown the discussion of calling out the LIES of stein and sarandOn who have no remorse of owning a BIG Chunk of trump.

[Sunsky]

128. No.

[sellitman]

129. Nope

They were wrong and are partly to blame.

This Supreme Court is on them.

[TheSocialDem]

134. Yea, it's all on them

And not the republicans. LOL. most of the people I know who didn’t vote or voted 3rd party are people who are not political junkies but rather people who were duped into thinking Dems and repubs are the same, which is a huge problem with the msm getting rich off of infotainment and not reporting on real economic issues. Albeit they were wrong, and a lot of us knew they were wrong, but they aren’t nearly as bad as people who voted for trump, and they aren’t the ones who rigged the game so that we need 65% of the vote to get a 51% win in some of these elections.

[Cha]

143. Didn't say it was all on them.. they own a big chunk of it..

stein and ssarandon's FUCKING FECKLESS LIES took away votes in crucial swing states.

Link to tweet

Stupid FUCkS.. and they're going to do it again in 2020.

This is Democratic Underground.. NOT 3rd Party SHIT Underground.

[JNelson6563]

135. "them" lol

[Cha]

142. Oh Shite.. you just brought up my rage again at the FUCKING

FECKLESS LIARs that enabled the Russians to Rig in the FAKE NEWS FUCKER.

Link to tweet

Why are you trying to protect these 3rd party RF? They're going to do it again in 2020.

This is Democratic Underground.. NOT 3rd Party SHIT Underground.

[JackInGreen]

153. Dont try and interrupt their two minute hate man

People are frustrated and lashing out, so even through it let's try to hold onto eachother...


Whether or not that'll be allowed remains to be seen unfortunately.

[EndGOPPropaganda]

156. No. Many reasons - and nonDem voters are one big reason

[lillypaddle]

173. I don't think so

[stlsaxman]

177. Like Dorothy Day said, y'all...

"No one has the right sit and feel sorry for themselves- there's too much work to do."

[Ninsianna]

178. Hell no. We screamed at these people about what would happen

and to whom, and they did not give a damn, because it did not affect them. They deliberately chose to screw us over. Immigrants, women, poc, minorities, the LGBTQ, pretty much every one.

They deserve everything they're being called. They did this to us, and were insufferable assholes every nanometer of the way, their precious, purity earned them the contempt they're getting.

If they want to "unify", they can take their own damned advice, bend the knee, eat crow and apologize for their shitty, shitty shitty behavior and then go choke on it. If I am harsh, itxs because those F*era deserve it. Even yesterday, they were out gloating about the shit they brought about. Trump them.

[betsuni]

181. +1

[yurbud]

188. Some are outraged because they can't reach out to those voters without dropping

a moneybag from some big donor.

Those who are in politics to get rich need to be primaried out.

[Scurrilous]

189. ...

[kcr]

192. Sorry, but it isn't going to happen

For one thing, it doesn't help that it's never acknowledged those 3rd party/non-voters make the purging and gerrymandering that much easier. There's no way around it. They're a big part of the problem and you're telling people to ignore that. Good luck.

[End Of The Road]

193. I was almost a non-voter in 2016

I live in Texas, in one of the very few blue counties. There was no doubt that Hillary would win my county, but also no doubt that Trump would take the state. I voted because of some city council issues (crooks all, IMO) so of course voted for Hillary since I was there. But it's damn depressing to cast a vote that does not count.