Let's discuss the difference between punk rock and hate music.

[stevedeshazer]

I am a musician. And yes, I can actually play a number of instruments and I was classically trained and educated in music. I'm also a former minor punk rock singer so I think I'm qualified to post about this issue.

This asshole who decided to shoot a bunch of peaceful Sikhs does not represent the punk movement in any way. Hate rock is NOT punk.

Real punks of any age (I'm 57) do not associate nor identify with any of the hateful assholes in so-called white power movements. We have ALWAYS rejected this bullshit.

Real punks are gay, lesbian, straight, whatever. We never have judged each other. All we know is that we are disaffected and share a distrust of the establishment.

The one thing we are united about is fucking FAIRNESS.

Every single one of us has been screwed over somehow by society, from Nixon to Bush and beyond. That is precisely why we are punks. We see that we are being fucked over. And we were the first to make a big stink about it. And we were way out front, more than 30 years ago.

One night in 1978, I was chased up a blind alley and had the shit beat out of me by some small-town jackasses because they thought I was queer. I'm not. But, ever since, I've been on the side of the queers. Sure, I had gay friends but it was at that moment that I finally understood.

It seems weird to me that I must post in defense of punk rock, but please remember that the punk rock movement continues today. The whole point was to shock people into thinking.

I like that.

[RZM]

1. As you know, punks have always been big liberals

But I disagree somewhat that the neo-nazi music isn't punk in at least form. It's certainly not punk in lyrical content and ideological affiliation, but it's quite punk in terms of musical content.

Those people aren't 'punks,' but they definitely play music that has its roots in punk.

[physioex]

2. More of a mixture....

They are also influenced by Heavy Metal/Death Metal.

[RZM]

3. That's true as well

But of course, those two styles have frequently crossed paths.

[Ken Burch]

34. Some are, some aren't.

In some ways, punk was also a reaction against Metal in various forms.

[Mosby]

61. I agree

Rock music diverged in the late 70s - some of my friends got into heavy metal and the rest of us got into punk, there was very little overlap between them. Later on though sub-genres like speed metal and grunge blurred the line between the two.

To this day I still hate everything about heavy metal and frankly find a lot of satisfaction in the fact that time has not been kind to heavy metal bands, they sucked then and still suck now eg Van halen is, IMHO, the most overrated band in american rock and roll history.

[Ken Burch]

64. Van Halen is also the ONLY band in history

where the drunks fired the sober dudes. But I digress.

[JaneyVee]

62. Punk Rock was co-opted by RW hate groups, it's origins are Left-wing working class,

Solidarity movement. It was a BACKLASH to RW fascism.

[Ken Burch]

65. SOME of punk was co-opted.

A lot of it is still left-wing and passionately anti-racist. What this psychopath did does not represent the views of every punk band and every punk fan on the planet.

In fact, it's quite likely you'll see punk groups playing benefits for the Sikhs and organizing against this new level of fascist bloodlust.

[JaneyVee]

69. Great point.

I should have noted that. SOME of punk has been co-opted. RW hate punk is a kind of reactionary to left-wing punk rock. The MAJORITY of punk rock is left-wing, with RW hate groups making up a small minority of punk rock in general.

[JenniferJuniper]

4. There is supposed to be an inherent honesty in punk music

"Three chords and the truth" as someone once described it. (although Woody Guthrie is supposed to have said ""If you play more than two chords, you're showing off".)

I don't find anything honest about right wing hate groups.

[RZM]

13. Unforutnately, I think they are honest

The dedicated members really do believe all that shit. Many eventually realize it's all rubbish, but when they're in it, they often buy it.

I'm reminded of that HBO special called 'Gladiator Days,' which was later picked up by the prison-obsessed MSNBC. It's about one murder in a Utah prison, where a couple neo-Nazi gang members killed a black inmate in a lame 'respect' issue, which is the cause of a lot of violence in prisons.

One of the killers was transferred to a different prison where he found God and rejected his neo-Nazi past. The interview with him was interesting, because he said that while he now understands that all of that stuff is ridiculous, at the time he believed it 100 percent.

So a lot of these guys really do think that whites are the master race, that Jews control the world, and whatever else.

They may be deluded, but many of them really do believe what they say. And that's the sad part.

[arcane1]

17. Few things are more sad than someone thoughtfully and rationally arriving at the wrong conclusion

[RZM]

19. Indeed

But I do have to say that I'd rather have people thinking than not, even if they temporarily arrive at the wrong destination. Many folks who go towards the fringe neo-Nazi shit eventually abandon it because they realize it's nonsense. The key is to keep people thinking and questioning. When you do that, you rarely end up where you started.

[JenniferJuniper]

18. I'm referring to universal truths

I have no doubt they are honest about their hatred.

Musically, punk has it's roots in bands like the MC5 and the Stooges. Spiritually, it's roots come from Woody Guthrie through 60's folk artists like Phil Ochs, which is why Ochs in particular is often considered a proto-punk as well. He didn't literally spit in his audiences' faces, but he didn't hesitate to call them out, even when the truth made them uncomfortable.

[RZM]

21. It's funny you mention unviversal truths

I had an amusing discussion with someone about this once. I argued that we believe in those in America and he argued that we don't. i said that we had those at the founding and enshrined them in the Constitution, while he argued that we don't have them here and instead our national character is all about a chaotic freedom where the state is not allowed to dictate anything like that. Over the years I've tended to think that I lost the argument and he was right. But maybe that's self-effacement. Who knows . . .

[stevedeshazer]

5. I guess.

Toby Keith and Willie Nelson are the same, right?

[RZM]

9. Not really

Toby Keith plays the cheesy radio format country. Willie Nelson does the real deal. Like many people I don't much like modern country, but I love the old stuff. BTW, Keith has said he voted for Clinton both times, though he also voted for Bush both times too. So he seems to be the latest version of what used to be called a Reagan Democrat.

That analogy doesn't work because the styles are quite different. But I'd bet if you changed the lyrics of the dipshit shooter's band they could pass for a crappy local hardcore band. As a bonus, you could even change them to Jesus-loving lyrics and they could pass for a Christian hardcore band.

[arcane1]

11. No need to change lyrics. If they're a crappy local hardcore band you can't decipher them anyway

They could be singing a biscuit recipe

[RZM]

14. LOL. Speaking of recipes, I can't help but post this (love the song, BTW)

[AsahinaKimi]

22. This reminds me of

my good friends favorite band.. RAMMSTEIN

She just loves this band. Its okay, I am more into Japanese Visuel Kei and Jrock.

[RZM]

24. I have to go with 'Moskau,' which is probably my favorite Rammstein song

Interestingly, the lyricist grew up in East Germany, so he sings some of the Russian lines.

[AsahinaKimi]

28. They are fun to watch, I have to admit

I guess my favorite Japanese Punk/Metal Rock band is Dir En Grey

[Lint Head]

6. It's really bad metal.

[stevedeshazer]

8. Bad metal is Ratt.

Metal stands for nothing.

[opiate69]

12. Ok then... It's metal played by people who can't play.

Classically trained, educated, professional metal musician for 20+ years.

[Lint Head]

15. Exactly.

I am a studio musician. AFM 257.

[stevedeshazer]

20. Pat yourself on the back, condescender. I am the same and have played for 46 years.

Neener, neener.

You actually really make the point of punkers everywhere with that spectacularly superior attitude.

Rock on.

[opiate69]

23. Well then....

Honestly, as a musician, do you think the assclown guitarist from the Ramones is as talented a guitarist as, say, as guy like Al Pitrelli? Or how about Cobain.... Who was such an inept guitarist he had to hire a touring guitarist to play the 4 chord "masterpieces" he wrote because he couldn't play "Mary had a little lamb" if you spotted him the first 5 notes? Or, you can tell me how much training and experience someone like Siousie Sioux had before forming the Banshees on a whim in the middle of McLaren's "SEX" shop? (ironically enough, she's the only one of the original London punks who actually created interesting music beyond the finger-painting level of punk, PIL's collaboration with Steve Vai aside) Fuckin 'ell, Guv'nor, the original London punks proudly wore their distinct lack of musical ability as a badge of fucking honor.

[stevedeshazer]

26. No.

And that's exactly the point.

Thanks for making it.

[kurtzapril4]

29. But...but...but....he's a trained professional! Genuflect!

[opiate69]

33. Only in music....

No other art form that I know of celebrates mediocrity so blatantly and proudly. (with the possible exception of films.) But nice to see you admit my original assessment was correct...

[Fumesucker]

45. Hmm.. Dire Straits had a song about mediocrity in art...

[Lint Head]

42. Are you a member of local AFM 257? I'm proud AFLCIO Union member.

I'm not being condescending. I've logged as much time as you are bragging about. It's wonderful that you know so much about punkers everywhere. You must be a musical genius. There is good punk, bad punk, good metal, speed metal, death metal and every other adjective one could place before the word metal to give a PR person an image and brand to sell. Other than the standard categories distributors use one could make up anything to brand a musical style.

[opiate69]

52. well, you see....

when you or I point out that "punk" musicians, on the whole, are average at best (and terrible at worst) musicians, it`s condescending... despite the fact that the actual founders of the genre proudly based a large part if their marketing on that very assertion... yet, when he smugly denigrates "metal" as "standing for nothing", citing an example of a band that could arguably be described as decidedly NOT metal, well... that`s cogent and thoughtful analysis based on his years of experience singing for a "minor punk band"....

[Lint Head]

54. Thanks.

[arcane1]

7. As a musician who at one time was clearly a "metal-head", I feel your pain

The fact that this dumb-ass was in a band doesn't bother me, but seeing him headlined as "neo-nazi punk-rocker" or "white supremacist metal-head" pisses me off.

God forbid they headline him as "racist gun-enthusiast"

[stevedeshazer]

10. The former would be the best description.

I agree.

[Gregorian]

16. I was just listening to this, and I don't have an inclination to get a gun.

I was actually looking for their single Flannel in Seattle. Sadly, it's not on Youtube. Waaaaaaaa!

[GReedDiamond]

25. I'm not exactly doing "punk rock" now...

...like I was when Top Jimmy was hanging out at my first punk band's very first rehearsal in late 1979, in Pasadena CA - and who, the next evening, went on Rodney's show on KROQ, w/John Doe & Exene, and plugged us, or like the performance we turned in on the public access tv show New Wave Theater.

I've also been jumped and beaten by cops, and, yes, a Christian fundamentalist prayer circle - one of these guys burst into my recording studio where we were rehearsing, and demanded we quit playing because they were having a prayer circle - outside of my studio in the alley by a dumpster. I respectfully suggested they may want to relocate the prayer circle, and they jumped and beat me to the ground, whereupon they kicked/stomped me until my guitarist came out, at which point, they stopped.

There was one gig in Pomona where nazi skinheads acted out, spitting on us and throwing beer bottles at us as we performed in a very confined space in a strip mall, which deteriorated into a mini riot in the parking lot outside the venue - nazi skinheads vs "regular" punk rockers...those were the days.

I've also played with a (mostly) gay punk/alternative band - lead singer was a gay porn star.

It's been pretty interesting, and, most of the time, enjoyable being in the punk and otherwise "underground" music scene in L.A., especially in the years between 1977 through 84 or so...the Federal Building (Westwood) smoke-in in '83 w/Black Flag, the Rock Against Reagan show later that same year at the same location, w/Minutemen - there are two events we helped to organize and performed at which would likely never be allowed to happen today.

[stevedeshazer]

27. Respect.

You get it.

[GReedDiamond]

30. Thanks, I try...nt

[Bluenorthwest]

44. New Wave Theater!!!!

Ye gods man. I loved Peter Ivers.

[GReedDiamond]

46. Peter Ivers was great!

...his interview with us was pretty funny, especially given the fact that he was dressed in a pink tutu.

He was a very accomplished blues harp player - we taped a blues jam with Peter which was, unfortunately, not aired, maybe because it was too long - many of our original tunes back then were clocking in around two minutes or less.

[seanpencil]

31. how is this being blamed on punk?

sorry I really don't know, not watching TV, etc.

[limpyhobbler]

32. I like what you're saying.

Yet a lot of neo-nazis do like hardcore punk. Thus we say "Nazi Punks Fuck Off!"

There is anti-racist punk too.

I think "punk" is a lot bigger concept than even "hippies" were.

There is a lot of variety in punk, including very cool stuff and also some racists, and much that is not political at all.

Not telling you anything new, I'm sure.

[ErikJ]

35. The "technical term" is Hate Rock. nt

[rocktivity]

36. Hate has no musical genre.

Last edited Tue Sep 2, 2014, 12:33 AM - Edit history (1)

"Death to (insert group you're angry at here)" can be rapped as easily as it can be sung mezzosoprano. It's the message, not the medium, that hates.


rocktivity

[UnrepentantLiberal]

37. Nazis stoled the skinhead, name, look and dress

from punk rock. Real punks love funk and reggae.

[Erose999]

60. "Skinhead" in the UK is something completely different from US skinheads. In the UK they call our

brand of skinheads "revival skinheads" or just "Nazi Skinheads".

In the UK that style of dress was what working class kids wore to work in factories in the 1960's. They were introduced to Ska and Rocksteady by immigrants from the West Indies.

In the mid-late '70's the Neo-Nazi "National Front" types re-appropriated the original "skinhead" look to their movement, with crappy hate rock music and soccer hooliganism, etc.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

78. Oi music

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!

most of the Oi bands weren't racist like the Angelic Upstarts - a few were.

[The Straight Story]

38. People blame guns, music, religion, etc

And yet we have millions of others who engage into those exact same things that don't go out and kill others.

Look for a reason - I am good with that. Making laws based on what one or a few do vs what millions don't do is just stupid imho.

I say this because, give it time, there will be folks on the left who blame some who do/own X and want to remove X from all in the name of safety.

[Romnopoly]

39. Nazi Skinheads were a creepy sideshow to the LA punk scene

I went to a lot of punk shows in LA in the early/mid 80's. Occasionally small groups of Nazi skinheads would show up at some of the shows, but they were an extremely small, unwanted element that the vast majority of punks wanted nothing to do with. When they did show up, they could change the vibe from good to bad.

Looking back, they were kind of like a creepy sideshow. I didn't really consider them part of the scene, even though they were there. They were probably less than .0001 percent of the LA punk scene, but since they tended to be ignorant and violent, they made their presence known. And while they existed, they didn't really intermingle with other punks as far as I can remember. And any band that was considered a "Nazi Skinhead band", wasn't welcome at any of the shows or clubs I went to, so I'm not sure where they played.

[Nevernose]

43. And I always noticed

There would be two or three little guys that I could make leave, but were always accompanied by some giant steroidal mongo who would make kicking the shit out of the nazi assholes problematic.

[a la izquierda]

82. Not just the early ´80s...they're still around.

The skinheads roll in from the Valleys and mess with anyone- punk kids, non-racist Oi skinheads, anyone- at shows. My husband, me, and our friends used to have a real time of it (back when I still lived in L.A.).

[Shankapotomus]

40. My brother was into punk

I was into progressive rock

He used to be into progressive rock

One day I asked him why he had gotten into punk rock and now hated prog rock so much

He said because he couldn't play what progressive bands like Yes and Rush were playing

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. Sorry but...

Let's discuss Sid Vicious in a t-shirt with a swastika and Malcolm McLaren selling replica SS uniforms in his Sex shop. Let's discuss Siouxsie Sioux dressing like this:



Subversive and shocking and not meant as racist? Probably, but then there were a lot of actual racists who saw these things and thought "oh alright then, brilliant!" Let's discuss the UK oi punk movement and bands like Skrewdriver. Let's discuss the whole evolution of the racist skinhead subculture as well. All of that was part of the punk scene; you can argue that it was people co-opting the punk sound and some of the aesthetics for their own reasons but to say that it's nothing to do with punk, even as a sort of reactionary subversion, is just wilful ignorance.

[yardwork]

47. Punk includes racist elements, just as humans include racist elements.

I believe that the point of the OP is that not all punk is racist. Some people make that mistake. That's like assuming that all people are racists.

Racist skinheads are marginalized by the skinhead community as a whole. The racists are known as "boneheads." It's a subset of the punk community, not the total.

[Romulox]

50. I think part of the misunderstanding comes from the provincialism of the UK music press.

Punk had many of its roots in the US, and the scene that developed here never toyed with Nazi imagery in the same way that half-wits like Sid Vicious did.

Punk =/= the late '70s London scene.

[JenniferJuniper]

51. Mick Jones of the Clash who is Jewish

belonged for a time in a band named "The London SS". Says band mate Tony James, "We hadn't thought at all about the Nazi implications. It just seemed like a very anarchic, stylish thing to do."

I think it was an imagery thing borrowed from the National Front (which most British punks very much opposed). They were kids born a decade after the war and I think the actual meaning of the symbols was somewhat lost on them.

[opiate69]

53. Don`t forget also....

the assclown guitarist from the Ramones was a right wing nut, and if he was still alive, he would almost certainly be throwing in with Pederast Nugent, dumbfuck Williams Jr and the rest of the Teabillys...

[JenniferJuniper]

55. Johnny Ramone was a Republican and Raygun and Dubya supporter

Which technically isn't the same thing as being a Nazi. And I don't think he was ever anywhere near as crazy as Nugent.

It also didn't stop him from performing "Bonzo Goes To Bitburg", although he did strongly object to it.

[opiate69]

57. never meant to imply any Nazi tie...

just adding to the pile of evidence which puts the lie to the rose-colored glasses view of punk being some monolithic, left-wing/progressive movement... and while he may not have been as nuts as Nugent, I`ve seen otherwise rational people go completly bug-fuck daffy since Obama`s election, so I was just engaging in a little educated speculation.

[JenniferJuniper]

58. Punk was/is essentially left wing but there are always gonna be a few rebels...

Nature of the beast.

[opiate69]

59. Always saw it as more Anarchist,

Which of course is where far-left and far-right tend to meet... biggest problem, though, is the term "punk" has been so over-used and watered down to be essentially meaningless. Plain old "rock n roll" used to be the anti-establishment label, but it got co-opted by the corporate music industry and watered down for mass consumption, and now, anything with a hint of attitude gets labelled as being "punk". I mean, Rolling Stone called Avril Lavigne punk for fucks sake (and no, it wasn`t done in their tired "hipster irony" schtick.)

[RZM]

63. As Triumph the Insult Comic Dog said . . .

'Avril Lavigne, punk queen, now there's a kidder. Go back north Celine needs a babysitter.'

[stevedeshazer]

66. Point taken.

[Tikki]

48. Still my music of choice...albeit old school. as they say...

The "not hippie" music. And the "not heavy metal" music. Now a sound and lyric to reflect deeper the anger and into the travesties of the Thatcher Reagan love affair and then some youthful romantic angst thrown in because each punk's World was angst ridden.

Here is the most amazing part of Punk...it was important and it sounded fantastic.



BLANK



If you thought "God Save the Queen" was a novelty song, you didn't get it.
ps Punk was not stupid...if you saw a band doing hate you had the choice to not listen, unlike metal that was always going to be mind-numbingly long and boring...


Tikki

[obamanut2012]

49. Henry Rollins fronted Black Flag

And, Rollins is a huge liberal, including a huge advocate for LGBT rights.

[stevedeshazer]

67. Our band opened for Black Flag.

Before Henry Rollins was in their band. They were really nice guys.

[obamanut2012]

68. Very cool!

The first real Punk band I "got."

[GReedDiamond]

70. We played with Black Flag, actually, we booked em...

... to play at a July 4 Smoke-in at the Federal Building in Westwood (Los Angeles), 1983.

Henry was the singer at the time, and they were doing these longish, seemingly hippie inspired punk jams instead of the 2 minute punk rock assaults.

Chuck, the BF bassist, also played that day in a band called Würm, whose drummer was staying, temporarily, at my art/recording studio in Pasadena.

I had to evict this drummer, whose moniker was Loud Lou - the hard way - when he tried to use squatter's tactics to take over my studio! He had, for example, applied with Edison for an electric power account, so he could have a bill w/his name and my address as the groundwork for false residency claims.

At that time, we were working with the California Marijuana Initiative (CMI), Jack Herer, the New York Yippies, and our own remnants of the L.A. Chapter of Rock Against Racism - which would later morph into Rock Against Reagan, by October 30, 1983 - when we did another rally at the Federal Bldg., on that occasion, with the Minutemen and an east coast RAR band called Stick Against Stone...but that's a whole nuther story.

Just wondering, what was your band called? Were/are you in L.A.? Are you still musically active/playing...?

Starting in 1978, I/We were - and still are, in many respects:

Scott Thomas Lowe & Atascadero>Benedict Arnold & The Traitors V1 (1979-1982)>Antinomians>The Hundredth Monkey versions 1 & 2>Pendu Femelle>Cecilia±>Slowdazzle>Picture This>Barf Bag>Wall of Noise>Marshall O Boy & The Well Hungarians>Benedict Arnold & The Traitors V2 (2000-2008)>Green Sparkle Frog (which is now)...that's 1978 - present.

[stevedeshazer]

73. My band was The Stiphnoyds, from Portland.

From 1979:

From 2011, our last show ever:

I'm the frontman. My brother was the guitarist. He died of brain cancer in February.

Good to know ya. West coast punk ruled.

[GReedDiamond]

76. Both of those clips are what real punk is all about...

...thanks, and I am so sorry about the loss of your brother.

[grasswire]

80. RIP Steve

More cowbell, as always.

[GReedDiamond]

81. Like I said in the thread about Steve's passing...

...I'm stunned, very saddened to learn of this.

His reply to my post was his last post...

My condolences to his wife, family, loved ones and friends.

RIP Steve.

[Initech]

56. There's a lot of truly hateful bands in underground music.

Even in black metal, punk, rap, you name it. The worst are hardcore straight edge bands - they combine it all with no alcohol at that.

[flvegan]

71. Easy.

The difference is punk rock knows better.

[Zorra]

72. I like the punk movement a bit more than the music, in general.

But there's some punk that I do really like. Are Patti Smith, Black Flag, Bad Religion, Dead Kennedys and The Clash still considered punk?

I did sound at a hardcore punk show once, when our band wasn't gigging for awhile.

(Huh? What did you say?)


Anyway, here's one of my original tunes; you could call it lesbian grungepunk, I suppose.
Ⓐ

[Warren DeMontague]

74. The only obnoxious trait I've encountered in actual punks is a tendency for snide hippie-bashing.

In which case, I enjoy showing them this picture:



but beyond that, yes, you're absolutely right.

[Zorra]

75. Bet it totally Cramps their style when you do that. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Yah

it's like garlic to a vampire.

[jberryhill]

77. I thought "hate music" had something to do with disco

As in, "People who were into disco must hate music."