People who don't want Trump removed because "Pence is worse" are wrong

[scheming daemons]

Pence is a classical right wing doofus Republican. His views on everything are wrong. But he is much less dangerous to our country as President than Trump is.

Why? Because there is no 30% base that is cult-like in devotion to him. He will be a weak lame-duck the second he takes the oath of office. He likely wouldn't even win the 2020 GOP primary, and if he did squeak by and get the nomination, he will be much easier to beat than a Trump.

There is not a cult of personality around Pence like there is around Trump, mainly because Pence has no personality.

The MAGAts have no devotion to Pence and won't turn out in elections for him.

Let's remove the immediate and dangerous threat to our Republic, Donald Trump.

We can deal with Pence later. He will he a pushover compared to Trump. Hell, he was underwater in polls in INDIANA before he joined the Trump campaign.

Impeach Trump. Save the Republic. Pence will be a ineffective placeholder until 2020.

[brooklynite]

1. I haven't heard anyone say "Pence is worse"...

...but that's not the issue. The reason we SHOULD NOT IMPEACH today is that the Senate won't convict which will effectively "acquit" Trump. Add to which, you'll destroy the trust that voters had in us when they elected us to get things done policy-wise.

[NewJeffCT]

10. I've seen it fairly regularly on here

and elsewhere. I think he's a true believer in his RW fundie beliefs, but I agree with the OP that he lacks the train wreck charisma of Trump = Pence was in a red state and had very low popularity when he left office, and he'd be lower still nationally if he became president.

[TexasProgresive]

12. I agree with Jeff--Pence is/will be worse is a common sentiment on DU.

[kcr]

39. I've seen it too, but I seem to see it less often

People are reaching their limit.

[radical noodle]

42. Yes, I've said it

but I come from Indiana and he is scary. For the average person, he's more reasonable than trump, but he's worse for women and gays.

[TexasProgresive]

57. Maybe so but would he sell us out to Putin?

Both are terrible. I just don't see Pence destroying 50 years of foreign policy.

[radical noodle]

61. He would sell out to anyone

if he thought it would help get his theocratic regime in place.

[Lonestarblue]

40. I hope Democratic candidates avoid any discussion of impeachment.

Republicans are trying to get their base out to vote by saying that Democrats will impeach Trump as soon as they’re sworn into office. Candidates need to say that they’re focused on solving the problems of the country and the ones their constituents deem important. We all need to wait until Mueller’s final report is available, and then decide whether any action by Congress is appropriate. Do I want this SOB gone—absolutely! But I don’t think it does our side any good to speculate on whether Mueller will prove Trump guilty of anything. Trump doesn’t use email, so there may be no paper trail. And I doubt anyone was stupid enough to record conversations with Russian contacts. So unless someone (or several someones) testify under oath that Trump gave all the orders, there may not be a way to prove that he conspired with Russia. We all believe he did, but our beliefs and courtroom proof are two different things. So all I’m saying is that I believe Mueller will find ample evidence that Trump Jr. and Kushner conspired with Russia, but I’m not convinced that he will be able to clearly document evidence against Trump.

[progressoid]

50. My gay friends say it.

Pence's religious fundamentalism scares the hell out of them.

[LanternWaste]

63. I haven't seen a full moon in four months.

I attribute that to the high probability I'm asleep when it happens.

[underpants]

2. Pence and their party would be next to powerless

Like in 2006 when the wheels came off.
I know I know, we aren't supposed to remember that

[Squinch]

3. I totally agree. I have heard it and I don't understand how people can think that.

Pence is merely a moron. Whiny donnie is a moron with a talent for Tasmanian devil-level destruction and he's an agent for Russia. That seems like a big difference to me.

[cab67]

21. Because Pence is actually a politician.

He understands the system and actually has experience getting legislation through. He at least knows not to alienate Congress or his party’s establishment. He could, in theory, be more effective at furthering hard right legislation.

Please note - I do NOT think Pence is worse than the shaved orangutan currently occupying the Oval Office. But I can see how people might think that way.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

31. Worse for us LGBTQers (and for everybody else in some respects)

Pence is heavy into fundamentalist/dominionist ideology. A true believer. Not to absolve Trump but I'm fairly sure that 99.999999% of the anti-LGBTQ stuff emanating from the WH is coming from Pence, who Trump has essentially delegated responsibility for social and domestic policies. If Trump resigned and/or was impeached tomorrow, the Republicans would jump back on board with Pence and, probably, get more done. Trump is a dumpster fire but he's also a bull in a china shop who can't even work with his own party because he's unpredictable and he's easier for us to mobilize against and fight. My feeling is that we need to win big in the midterms to help contain Trump until 2020 and then we beat him in 2020 so that we get rid of both of them.

[radical noodle]

46. This

Pence is well liked by Republicans, unlike Trump whom they pretend to tolerate. After the clusterfuck that is trump, pence will look to many people like a breath of fresh air. But he's sneaky and mean and will do all the same bad stuff while looking innocent as a newborn lamb.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

60. Exactly

[nitpicker]

64. +1

If he was in the 17th century, Pence would mandate everyone spend eight hours in church on Sunday or else be fined/imprisoned.

[LuvNewcastle]

71. I agree.

Pence would pick Santorum for VP if he could. Or Huckabee. I don't trust that plastic motherfucker as far as I can throw Trump. We need to get rid of both. One's as toxic as the other.

[niyad]

38. pence is a woman-hating, dominionist bastard. he only LOOKS semi-sane.

[dalton99a]

4. Pence is like the creepy funeral director that steals your grandmother's wedding ring

or the creepy guy in the trench coat

If impeachment drives Democrats to the polls, use it!

[EffieBlack]

20. Trump will not be impeached. We need to get off of that horse.

Even if we take back both the House and the Senate, we will not have the votes in the Senate to remove him.

Impeachment is a waste of time right now. We need to focus our attention on winning back the House and Senate so that we can put some constraints on Trump and his administration. Focusing on impeachment is counterproductive at this point.

[RandomAccess]

65. Effie, if things are the same then as they are now

you'd be 100% correct.

But they won't be the same. We don't know for sure how they'll be different, but different they will certainly be.

Many Republicans are beginning to turn against Trump and we've heard for months and months that IN PRIVATE, the Republicons in Congress have not very nice things to say about him. It's entirely possible that with more and more revelations from the Mueller probe (or his final report), and/or more incredible, treasonous utterings from the orange one, and/or events that demonstrate his danger and damage the country, and/or more and more resistance and outrage by the public, we could very well find enough Republican senators to do that.

I frankly think that if the Republicans take enough of a drubbing in November, some of them they might be more than willing to do it. Trump's own approval ratings aren't what they once were either.

You. Just. Don't. Know. And to be perfectly honest, it's demoralizing to read your insistence that it just can't happen. You and I have both seen miracles happen in our lifetime -- miracles that "could never happen." Mandela released; the Berlin Wall down; Doug Jones's victory; many more (I should make a list for such occasions as this). The ONLY thing we know for sure is that if we don't try because "it will never happen," then we will prove ourselves right, having created our own self-fulfilling prophecy.

I agree with you entirely that 2018 should be our near singular focus, but -- merely mentioning impeachment (and even short discussions about it) certainly aren't that much of a threat

[cab67]

70. I keep waiting for things to not be the same.

Last year, I hoped that by this time this year, congressional Republicans would be actively trying to get rid of Trump to avoid an electoral massacre in the midterms. We're now this time this year, everyone's predicting an electoral massacre in the midterms, and very few congressional Republicans are publicly calling for Trump's removal.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

5. Pence is cancer; Trump is a gushing trauma wound.

Both can kill you and need to be dealt with.

However, one is the more immediate pressing concern, and you need to deal with it immediately before you can then address the more long term issue.

[dalton99a]

8. +1. And we must stanch the bleeding ASAP

Democrats MUST retake the House in November.

[docgee]

11. Great analogy!

[Greybnk48]

14. For Trump, Pence is McDonald's personified.

Just like Don the Con eats McDonald's so the likelihood of being poisoned is slight, Pence was hand selected as the ONE PERSON no one in their right mind would want as a President. The one person who is in the top 5 least capable and qualified to sit in the oval. Pence is Trump's McDonald's.


Pence is terminal cancer; Pence is dry rot. Pence is unintelligent and quietly evil; a lurker ready to slide in. He has no ideas other than twisted misogyny and paternalism. He's one of the craziest people in Congress and always has been for those of us who have been around for a while.

[Squinch]

23. There you go! Thats the perfect analogy.

[NCTraveler]

6. It's a horrible argument...

And every time I have seen it made the arguments are completely void of real world context.

[raging moderate]

7. If he has less than two years left of this term, does he get to run twice?

I think I read in the US Constitution, if the President is impeached after the halfway point in his term, then his Vice President will have less than half a term to be President, so he can run twice in his own name. Of course, this OP is right about Pence's popularity; that would not necessarily mean that Pence would win twice, or even once! Still, it seems a little worrisome. Pence is a bonafide and strictly orthodox Christian fundamentalist, which would make those folks ready to die for him. By the way, "fundamentalist" is a more accurate word for those people than "evangelical," although they like to obfuscate this issue to appear larger than they are. I attended a fundamentalist church during my teens, so I have some familiarity with them.

[jmowreader]

17. Yes he does

But that won’t matter because he wouldn’t win the first time. If Trump gets removed the GOP will probably throw at least one election so the Democrats can do (and take the blame for) all the unpopular things needed to recover from Trump.

[cab67]

24. Trump wasn't going to win in 2016.

I don’t take chances like that anymore.

[EffieBlack]

19. Yes.

And he could very well - and likely would - win in 2020.

[PoliticAverse]

49. "so he can run twice in his own name." - that's correct as to the 2-year issue...

1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once.

[hlthe2b]

9. I think Pence realizes this too (i.e., that there will be no loyalty to him, unlike Trump)

and THAT is why I think he is so willing to play the supplicant sycophant to Trump...

[Scruffy1]

41. I think it's just his nature.

He's Uriah Heep in real life. Born an ass kisser.

[mtnsnake]

13. People who don't want Trump removed for any reason are wrong.

There is no advantage to having Trump in the WH vs having anyone else in the WH, even if it's Pence. Trump is a disaster and a time bomb waiting to explode and take the world with him. Pence would be a disaster for us, too, but without Trump, Pence will be rendered useless even to his own party.

[Atticus]

15. I posted this some time ago. Maybe it is worth repeating.

Imagine you are on your way to a chemo session for your Level IV cancer. A car blows through a red light and T-bones you. Your vehicle spins into a tree and down an embankment. When you come to a stop, you see and feel bright red blood spurting from a major artery.

You still have cancer, but what is your first---most immediate---concern?

Trump is an immediate existential threat---a "spurting artery". We'll "chemo" Pence later.

[MiniMe]

16. I think Pence is more dangerous because he understands the system better

tRump is shooting from the hip. But Pence doesn't have the charisma that tRump has. Not that I find that tRump has charisma, but his "base" does.

[luvtheGWN]

22. Plus the fact that Pence has plenty of DARK Money behind him.

He may not have charisma (and he certainly does NOT) but do not discount the vast amounts of money ready to be thrown his way if he ever does ascend to the "throne". And you can be sure that every fundamentalist church will instruct their congregations -- which number in the millions upon millions -- to vote for him.

If enough stupid people voted for Trump, there are just as many who will bow at Pence's feet.

Just my 2 cents.

[mythology]

25. This is pretty close to my opinion

I think Trump is more likely to get us into nuclear war and so his potential for extreme danger is worse, but he and his administration is so completely inept that they hurt their own ability to do harm.

Pence is more capable on the day to day go governing and so has a higher average level of harm caused.

But the best way to limit either is the same. Win in 2018.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. That Doesn't Work For Me, Myth

In a vacuum, i think you are correct. But, a VP assuming the mantle as a result of a resignation in disgrace puts a lot of volume into that empty space.

The understanding of how gov't works is far less relevant when the power of the bully pulpit is entirely gone.

[Raine]

68. I think so too

along with him appearing to be more reasonable, intelligent, coherent and likable (he even has a pet bunny rabbit that travels with the family) this to me makes him much more dangerous.

[EffieBlack]

18. In some ways, Pence IS worse

Trump is a once-in-a-lifetime horrible, dangerous, awful phenomenon. But he will eventually be gone. And he is so bad, so openly unfit that most sane people can see him for what he is.

Pence comes across as dumber and more innocuous. But don't be fooled. He's just as hateful and dangerous - and if he becomes president, he will do EXACTLY what Trump is doing - except the taunting and babbling. His policies will be the same, he will appoint the same kinds of judges, etc. But he is much more palatable to people who would never support Trump but would think that Pence is a refreshing change.

AND, if Trump is removed after January 2019 and Pence stepped in, he would ride straight to victory in 2020 on the shoulders of those people who are so relieved that Trump is gone and see Pence as an acceptable alternative because "he's not as bad as Trump." And not only would he likely win in 2020, he could run again in 2024, giving us the possibility of 10 years of Pence and 12 years of Trump-Pence.

No, thank you. It's not worth it. I'm focusing my efforts, not on removing Trump today - which just isn't going to happen, no matter how much we jump up and down and demand that he go - but on fighting to win back one or both houses of Congress, spending the next two years putting Trump into hard check and then getting his and Pence's asses out of the White House permanently, replaced by a decent and sane Democrat.

[JDC]

26. We should cross that bridge when we come to it

[elmac]

27. well, pence may save wall street

but he will be just as devastating to the rest of the country. He may be better with foreign policy but I doubt it.

[yuiyoshida]

28. Don't THINK FOR ONE MOMENT that Pence is not guilty of

those things charged to Donald Trump, he has played his role and he will be paying for it
soon enough.

[dchill]

29. "There is not a cult of personality around Pence ..."

Well, no - because first there must be a personality.

[lancelyons]

30. None of that will change things.. Trump Pence.. ITS THE BASE that is the issue.

Im not sure why people dont understand that. The GOP Base and the years of fox news propaganda has this base so infected that it wont make a difference who is their president. They want what you see happening today.

Change to PENCE and you get he same BASE
Change to RYAN and you still have the same BASE.

The BASE is the issue.

NO GOP leader is going to step forward and tell the base they need to change or call out the deplorable civility because the BASE will revolt as will fox news.

[jcgoldie]

37. A lot of that base, however, thats attracted to Trump dont always vote

This is just my impression, but Trumps ignorance and ham handedness ínspires lower class racist whites especially in rural areas in a way that Mike Pence or any traditional republican does not.

[lancelyons]

62. There may be a few of those but more than anything its the FOX news audience that is his base.

There may be a few of those but more than anything its the FOX news audience that is his base.

you can say its racists rural people but that does not account for 50 million votes.

[elmac]

32. throwing the orange nazi out of office should be a high priority

no matter which fascist pig takes his place. They are all treasonous criminals so we can weed them out one by one.

[keepleft101]

33. I do think Pence is worse

I also think if Trump runs in 2020 it will be a landslide vote against him. People are outraged and it will just be more gains in the senate and house.

If Pence takes over people will just be ... ok.... Everything is back to normal now and forget all about Trump. Pence would be harder to beat because by 2020 people will look at Pence as Presidential. There wont be the outcry to get him out of office. Plus he will get more accomplished.

[ProfessorGAC]

36. Tell That To Jerry Ford

We're acting like this hasn't happened in recent memory.

And Gerald Ford was a good and decent man, and wasn't a radical nutjob.

Yet, he became the butt of jokes and Congress basically controlled the country for 2 years.

[jcgoldie]

35. especially if we take the house

The thing that I have always worried about Pence is that he would be a lot more efficient at getting their heinous agenda passed than Trump because it would eliminate the sideshow and allow Republicans to work together. But if we can take back the house thereby tying his hands, then I think you are right Pence would be the better option by far.

[JI7]

45. they are already getting the supreme court

and Trump is already destroying everything he can.


at least with pence we can put focus on issues .

[JI7]

43. agree, i also have a feeling that if Trump goes he will take Pence down

with him.

[Turbineguy]

44. All this makes Pence a smidgen better.

And trump being impeached and out will help him limit teh crazy

[Bettie]

47. Pence with a Republican congress is worse

Pence with at least one house held by Dems (provided they don't decide to cooperate with him) is less dangerous.

And frankly, I do think Pence is a Russian asset as well. I doubt that there is anyone in Republican leadership who isn't at very least compromised if not actively working for Putin.

[Shoonra]

48. Yes, Pence is SLIGHTLY better

Pence does not have royalist ambitions, does not talk about making himself President-for-Life, does not appear to surround himself with crooks/nitwits, does not lust to start a war, etc.

As a former Member of Congress, Pence knows better than the stonewall Congressional committees.

Pence does not seem to be a pathological liar.

Worst case scenario: It would still take Pence a while to become as crazy/crooked as Trump is.

[Dorn]

51. Remember: Pense was very unpopular in Indiana

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/trump-mike-pence-vice-president-225387

...there are plenty of Republicans in his home state who would be glad to see him abandon his re-election campaign to serve as Donald Trump’s running mate.

[Solly Mack]

52. I think they're both horrible in their own way but that doesn't mean Trump shouldn't go.

Look at the line of succession - it's horrible all the way down. Not all the same kind of horrible, but still horrible. There's no win here - in the line of succession - but Trump still needs to go.

[honest.abe]

53. Totally agree.

Focus on the highest priority which is removing Trump from the WH.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

54. I agree. Pence is awful, but he's a sort of awful that can be managed until he's defeated

in 2020. He's dumb and dull and has the charisma of a dishrag; and while Trump's fundie base will support him because abortion and The Gay, they won't turn out in droves for him. He won't inherit Trump's cult and he won't be able to create one of his own.

[Hoyt]

55. Long past thinking Pence might be worse than trump. He's not good, but he at least has

some experience running a state. He's a bigot and has extreme right wing ideology, but I'm for removing trump at the first opportunity.

[Mike Nelson]

56. Pence...

… and Crooked Donald are bad in different ways. Pence would work with the Republican Congress to get more done, which would be worse. He may start wars, but not accidently, which is a little better... but, it doesn't matter, now. There are not 67 votes to convict. Minus a conviction, Crooked Donald will be stronger.

[Freethinker65]

58. Much damage from Pence would be horrible but reversible (civil and reproductive rights, etc.)

Trump is doing damage that will be hard to impossible to reverse. Screwing relationships with allies, selling off national resources, spoiling our land/air/water for generations, destroying public education and social safety nets, aligning our national interests with ruthless dictators, etc.

Pence so far does not have the charismatic power Trump holds over his followers. Plus, there is actually a chance Pence believes in heaven and hell and that, while I hate to admit it, is a positive. Trump believes in Trump.

[LonePirate]

59. We need to win back the House. Then Mueller needs bring charges against 45 and Pence on January 3.

[JCMach1]

66. Choose your poison... Theocrats are worse

In my book...

[JI7]

69. Trump is doing the work of the Theocrats. at least with Pence we might get some attention

on these issues that Trump is fucking up instead of claiming "at least he isn't pence" when he is doing exactly what the religous right wants.

[cheezmaka]

67. If the GOP was smart they would get rid of Trump themselves....

If Pence is president then many republican Congress and Senators wouldn't have to DEFEND Trump's policies in the Midterm Elections... thereby retaining the House and Senate. They can control Pence and still do their damage.... However, if Dems would take back both houses then 45 will be null and impotent....