Vox: "Don't call all American white supremacists "Nazis." Their ideology of hate is homegrown."

[k8conant]

Using the term distances us from our history and reality.
By Lindsey E. Jones Updated Aug 10, 2018, 11:18am EDT
...

“Nazi” feels like a foreign import, something that was defeated long ago. But the white supremacy that descended on Charlottesville — and that has a sequel rally planned for this weekend, in Washington, DC — is not some distant threat. It’s a homegrown ideology, and it’s one that we are far from defeating.

...
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2017/8/18/16166708/unite-the-right-2018-alt-right-charlottesville-dc

[ananda]

1. I'll call them whatever I want!

If they act like Nazis ...

[Garrett78]

3. Did you read the article?

[ProfessorGAC]

4. I Did

It's one person's opinion, and I don't think it carries that much weight
Nazi doesn't feel like "an import" to me.
It sounds evil! And those idiots at that march are evil people.
There are no "good people" on that side.
The author lost me when Lewis & Clark got muddled in. Lewis and Clark compare to those evil hooligans? I think not

[Garrett78]

14. That wasn't the point of the L&C reference. But anyway...

Nazi has a foreign connotation that only dates back - in the public consciousness - to 1930s and 1940s Germany (though its origins are older than that, of course).

Most of the racists supporting Trump and the Republican Party are rooted in a racism that is as American as apple pie, as the saying goes. And it's been part of this nation's fabric since before this became a nation state.

It's not relegated to the Deep South either. When I lived in Oregon, which has a horrifyingly racist history, I would frequently see confederate flags. Owned by people who would disavow Hitler and Nazism.

[Garrett78]

2. A must-read. Thanks for posting.

[dembotoz]

5. got a better name for them? you call a car a car..not a multiwheel transport device

[FiveGoodMen]

6. Doesn't want to admit that fascism has American roots as well, huh?

[GoCubsGo]

7. Whether it's a Mercedes Benz or a Cadillac, it's still a car.

Call it whatever the hell you want.

[MountCleaners]

20. Great example

One variant is of foreign origin and one is domestic. In fact, there are tensions between the NAZI "alt-right" and the homegrown varieties - the confederates and the militia anti-government types. I think the latter look down on the former as too European and therefore "foreign", while their own roots here are deeper (and more normalized). However, there is a far right movement in the U.S. that looks to Europe and which you can call "Nazi". I do take issue with him making it sound as if Nazis are completely in the past. People like Richard Spencer and RAMZPAUL are Euro-oriented and therefore Nazi. American Nazis like to hang around the rest of the far right in hopes of recruiting them to their Euro-nationalist cause.

It's sad that "Nazi" and nazi symbols have a stigma while the native American variant isn't equally stigmatized. It's just as bad, but more normalized as it tends to blend with mainstream right Republicanism easier. That doesn't mean that real Nazis or Euro-fascists should be ignored. You'll find a lot of the latter type on Twitter, YouTube, Reddit and places like 4-chan and 8-chan.

[Ferrets are Cool]

8. My personal belief is that "NAZI" is the nastiest thing

I CAN name them. It wasn't defeated, only quelled. It is only growing because of so-called leaders who preach hate.

[workinclasszero]

9. When they march and riot with nazi flags and symbolism on everything

it seems weird to not call them nazis.

[lapfog_1]

26. so many of them use Nazi symbols and spout Nazi ideology

when they start speaking of "Aryan Nations" and other such crap.

When they idolize Adolf Hitler and the "final solution".

When they deny that the Holocaust happened...

Yeah, I'll keep calling them Nazis... and then I wonder what the hell is going on with our education system that makes Nazi ideology sort of mushy because it was foreign (not true) and long ago (maybe not so much).

There were a significant part of the US that supported Nazi Germany in the years leading up to WWII.

millions of people died fighting Nazis, we should not minimize Nazis or their current incarnation.

[workinclasszero]

28. Millions more are going to die fighting them again if we don't stop them

But I see our news media equating anti fascist protesters as being the same as Nazis, it makes me sick.

This whole entire country was Antifa in WW2 and on a holy crusade to crush fascism. Now we coddle it and let it fester and grow under its fascist leader Trump.

The state propaganda organ, Fox news has white supremacists like Laura Ingraham spewing out Nazi doctrine about the purity of the race being diluted by brown and black skin invaders and they are allowed to poison the body politic with these hateful lies.

We will pay a price for allowing all this racial hatred to have a voice, count on that.

[lunasun]

10. K&R thanks k8

I posted another good read from Vox here re : alt right
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100210988616

[RainCaster]

11. Neighbor? WTF?

You mean like Mr. Rogers? No way!
Nazis, cretins, racists, rednecks, those names fit.

[ismnotwasm]

12. Let me think..

Fuck that. I’m going to call fucking Nazis fucking Nazis

On edit, I posted that before I read the article. Having read it, I understand the and accept point, but I disagree. I’m still going to call fucking Nazis fucking Nazis

[Runningdawg]

13. The church i grew up in

Called them Christian Warriors. Is that American enough?

[Garrett78]

15. Some are really missing the point. The vast majority of racists who are...

Last edited Sat Aug 11, 2018, 03:13 PM - Edit history (1)

...propping up Trump and the Republican Party are rooted in a racism that is as American as apple pie (yes, I know apple pie's origins are not American). White supremacy in America long pre-dates Nazism, which has a foreign connotation that only dates back - in the public consciousness - to 1930s and 1940s Germany (even though its origin is older than that).

The term "Nazi" has a way of distancing the white supremacy from America, or what people may want to believe about America. But those white supremacists are, in fact, neighbors, co-workers, local businesspersons.

America is rooted in a white supremacy that has never been properly addressed. And it's not relegated to the Deep South. Travel through the Pacific Northwest. Travel through Montana, the Dakotas, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah and so on. Travel through the upper and lower Midwest. Travel through the Northeast. You will see Confederate flags owned by people who would have marched in Charlottesville had they been able to do so, and they wouldn't have marched under the Nazi flag.

Most of the Unite the Right rallygoers were not neo-Nazis. But it would be fair to say they are all white supremacists. That is what unites them. It's the tie that binds. White supremacy and sexism is what maintains the viability of the Republican Party. Not tax (cuts for the wealthy) policy or right wing environmental (destruction) policy or right wing (deprive people of) health care policy.

As for what to call them, I call them white supremacists or white nationalists. If you want to call them Nazis or neo-Nazis, fine. But Lindsey Jones is making an important point. We must accept that white supremacy is woven into the American fabric, and it's been that way since before Nazism. It's never been thoroughly addressed, tackled and eradicated. Not even close.

[k8conant]

16. Thank you, Garrett78!

Neo-Nazis are but a subset of American racists.

[ismnotwasm]

22. What's horrid about this

Is white America apparently doesn’t have our own, strong enough words to cover this level of racism. “White nationalist” sound like a patriotic group, because that’s what they think they are. Fuck that.

That being said, people who use the Nazi flag and spout Nazi bullshit still deserve to be called fucking Nazis

[Garrett78]

36. Most of the white supremacists in the US don't use Nazi symbols.

And they would disavow Nazism. If you call out Nazism, they don't feel guilty of the charge. They are, however, white supremacists. White supremacy is woven into the American fabric and has been since long before there was such a thing as Nazism. It's a term that applies to all Unite the Right rallygoers (and millions who didn't attend). Nazis or neo-Nazis are a subset.

[Voltaire2]

17. Idiotic.

The authors suggested remedy? “Call them neighbor “.

I get her point, but her essay is classic liberal overthinking.

Nazis.

[Garrett78]

18. That isn't her suggested remedy. See post #15.

They're white supremacists. She made that clear. But people seem to be going out of their way to miss her point.

[Voltaire2]

29. Actually it is her suggested remedy.

Your suggested remedy is "white supremacists or white nationalists". In fairness she was just making a point about home-grown verses imported, a point she is not really correct about either, it is both, and neither fascism nor whatever-the-fuck-you-want-to-call-our-domestic-fascist-ideology developed in isolation from each other. What we are in the midst of is a GLOBAL resurgence of fascism. Jones doesn't seem to get that. She doesn't seem to see outside of her own neighborhood.

Back to your alternative to "nazi". Nazi evokes a past even our most reactionary "neighbors" look back on as a time when our nation "fought the good fight" against tyranny. Nazis are categorically bad. Even the current crop of overt nazis have issues with the label, see our friend, "the crying nazi", despondent about being outed.

"White supremacist" doesn't have those connotations. It is not what our parents and grandparents fought against in WWII. Instead in evokes, especially in the south, memories of a mythical golden age, of a Gone With the Wind world. It ain't, for many white people, automatically bad.

I'll stick with "fucking nazi assholes". Thanks.

[Garrett78]

30. It's completely absurd to say that's her suggested remedy. She uses the term white supremacists.

Her point is that Nazis are a subset of the white supremacists that are propping up Trump and the Republican Party. These white supremacists are all around us (neighbors, local businesspersons, co-workers, etc.) in every region of this country (Pacific Northwest, Midwest, Northeast, you name it).

Jones is not denying the reality of fascism or Nazism. The point is that white supremacy has been woven into the American fabric since long before there was such a thing as Nazism. That includes people who are opposed to Nazism and won't accept that they're part of the problem when we simply call out Nazis. In their mind, that means they're off the hook, because they aren't Nazis. They need to be called out for being the white supremacist assholes they are, and not given an out.

[Voltaire2]

31. Her exact words.

I can understand how people unfamiliar with the ubiquity of Confederate symbols in the South might find the analogy to Nazism compelling. However, for many of us who observe the conflict from south of the Mason-Dixon Line and with the benefit of historical context, the term “Nazi” cannot sum up the groups that appeared in Charlottesville. We recognize it as something much closer to home.

When we’re talking about people who are galvanized in large part by defending Confederate symbols, the term “neighbor” is far more accurate.

I guess she didn't really mean it.

[Garrett78]

32. Yes, meaning there are non-Nazi, Confederate flag-waving white supremacists all around us.

She's not proposing any sort of remedy or saying that we should refer to Unite the Right rallygoers as neighbors. She's saying that Nazis or neo-Nazis are but a subset of the white supremacists or white nationalists (labels that she uses and highlighted in her piece).

[Lee-Lee]

19. The author gets what many here fail to grasp

There are many varieties of hate movements in the US.

The percentage of them who are actual Nazis, who adhere to or follow the beliefs of National Socialism as Hitler espoused and Germany under him went for, is a subset of less than half of them.

And it’s important for those of us who oppose them all to understand the difference and be accurate in our opposition of them. Because if you don’t understand your enemy you can’t effectively fight them.

White supremacist is a far better label. It’s more accurate for a wider swath, it includes those who are not full blown Nazis but have white supremacist beliefs, and it’s a far easier label to attach to people. If you see a person you and others know post something online that’s racist, if you go immediately to labeling that person a full blown Nazi to others who know them most will assume you are overreacting and have disbelief. It’s far easier to use the label white supremacist. People are far more likely to take accusations of a person as a white supremacist seriously than accusations of them being a Nazi that they will see as an overreaction or exaggeration.

[JonLP24]

25. Depends what region

There's no KKK around here but plenty of neo nazis, especially in prisons which the medium to higher security are self segregrated (i don't know why guards let this happen)

[Iggo]

21. Oh wow.

#notallwhitesupremacists

Now I've seen it all.

[JonLP24]

24. +1000

[Garrett78]

33. Who said that? The author said the opposite of that.

Lindsey Jones is making the point that all are white supremacists (with Nazis or neo-Nazis being a subset). White supremacy is woven into the American fabric and has been since long before there was such a thing as Nazism. It's never been addressed thoroughly enough. White supremacists are neighbors, co-workers, local businesspersons, etc. And they are found in every region of this country to this very day. They are propping up the Republican Party, which would cease to be viable absent white supremacy. A majority of those white supremacists would disavow Nazism, and they feel like they're off the hook when Nazism gets called out. Call out white supremacy and they have no out.

[JonLP24]

23. Some call themselves nazis

And are fascinated by Nazi ideology and symbols still falling for propaganda after all these years.

[Turbineguy]

27. They just use swastikas

to give themselves some class and credibility.

[Garrett78]

34. Most white supremacists in the US don't use swastikas.

Those who do are a subset and are in the minority. Drive around the US (Pac NW, the Mountain West, Midwest, Northeast) and you will find far more Confederate symbols than swastikas. The majority of white supremacists, though, don't display any symbols at all.

White supremacy is woven into the American fabric and long pre-dates Nazism.

[janx]

35. Interesting--I was just about to post the same comment as an OP.

Yes, they use swastikas, etc., but they are homegrown and aside from the obvious racism and imagined victimhood, the situations are different in important respects. It's not a very good analogy.

Thanks for posting.