Opinions of the mentally disabled/ill voting

[DisabledDem]

For anyone who has spent time working or having/knowing a family who suffered the conditions the two groups have, what is your personal opinion of letting people who the courts of most states tend to classify as mentally incompetent?

[Posteritatis]

1. If you're equating "mentally ill" with "mentally incompetent" your argument is already broken. (nt)

[DisabledDem]

2. Well, both groups have been discriminated by many states of this country.

Look at how the states use their ancient laws prohibiting both groups from voting, such as wording as stereotype as idoit(mentally disabled) or insane(mentally ill).

[Downwinder]

3. The Tea Party can vote.

[Posteritatis]

9. And you're equating "mentally ill" with "conservative" so your argument's broken too. (nt)

[Downwinder]

10. No. I'm equating Tea Party with mentally ill.

They are in worse shape than I am, and I have "multiple lesions in both hemispheres."

[Posteritatis]

12. So you're making a slightly different stupid, stigmatizing argument. Nice. (nt)

[slackmaster]

46. I suspect that you have never had the experience of dealing with a truly mentally ill person

It's not fun, and I doubt that you would be so flippant about it if you knew what you were talking about.

[Zalatix]

18. Tea Party = mentally ill by definition.

Edit: that's not to say they should be denied the right to vote. It just means that they are in fact mentally ill.

[Posteritatis]

25. Whose definition? Which specific disorder?

I'm really interested in how you're suddenly an authority that trumps entire medical fields. We are talking about your definition and not the real definitions of mental illness that grownups use, right?

Tell me - which other political areas, or viewpoints in general, do you consider to be diseases? What courses of action do you recommend towards them? It's probably a safe assumption that you hate the Tea Party, so do you hate any other particular mental illnesses? Perhaps all of them?

[Zalatix]

28. I'll let the "idiots" at UC Berkeley and Stanford answer that.

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

[slackmaster]

54. That's a set of personality traits, not diagnostic of any recognized mental illness

HTH

[Comrade_McKenzie]

47. Wrong.

"Here are the facts. A meta-analysis culled from 88 samples in 12 countries, and with an N of 22,818, revealed that “several psychological variables predicted political conservatism.” Which variables exactly? In order of predictive power: Death anxiety, system instability, dogmatism/intolerance of ambiguity, closed-mindedness, low tolerance of uncertainty, high needs for order, structure, and closure, low integrative complexity, fear of threat and loss, and low self-esteem. The researchers conclude, a little chillingly, that “the core ideology of conservatism stresses resistance to change and a justification of inequality.”

The above list of variables is more than a little unsavory. We are talking about someone full of fear, with a poor sense of self, and a lack of mental dexterity. I always tell my students that tolerance of ambiguity is one especially excellent mark of psychological maturity. It isn’t a black and white world. According to the research, conservatives possess precisely the opposite: an intolerance of ambiguity and an inability to deal with complexity. Maybe that’s one reason why Obama seems so distasteful to them: he is a nuanced, multi-faceted thinker who can see things from several different perspectives simultaneously. And he isn’t preaching fear, either."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/genius-and-madness/200809/is-political-conservatism-mild-form-insanity

[pipi_k]

63. I would say that

this paragraph:

According to the research, conservatives possess precisely the opposite: an intolerance of ambiguity and an inability to deal with complexity. Maybe that’s one reason why Obama seems so distasteful to them: he is a nuanced, multi-faceted thinker who can see things from several different perspectives simultaneously. And he isn’t preaching fear, either."

Can also apply to liberals.

In my time here at DU, I've been accused of duplicity and ingenuousness by Democrats (can't tell if they were on the more Liberal end of the spectrum) simply because I can see lots of gray areas.

I absolutely hate having to answer questions with a plain "yes" or "no".

So the honest statement should be that
"Some conservatives possess precisely the opposite: an intolerance of ambiguity and an inability, blah blah blah...."

It really sucks when one side or the other attempts to pigeonhole an entire group in order to prove some kind of point.

[Posteritatis]

69. Hell, just look at people in this thread treating "mentally ill" as one uniform group. (nt)

[Odin2005]

14. What a disgusting and bigoted post.

[Zalatix]

20. Not at all.

To believe in the Tea Party you must have something wrong with you, mentally-speaking. That is a basic fact - you can't call Jim Jones sane, nor can you call the Tea Party sane.

[Odin2005]

22. By that reasoning 95% of everyone is insane.

Human beings are naturally dogmatic, superstitious, and close-minded unless taught to be otherwise. Believing in something that is factually incorrect is not in itself mental illness, everyone is guilty of cognitive biases and illogical thinking. Everyone to some extent sees what they want to see and ignores evidence that goes against their own worldview. They think we are just as incorrect in our views as we think think they are incorrect in theirs.

[Zalatix]

23. Which is why, as I said above, it isn't reason to deny someone voting rights.

[cali]

27. actually, that's called opinion, not fact.

[Zalatix]

30. Perhaps you'll want to read a few more uneducated opinions about this...

http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/07/22_politics.shtml

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. Nothing there about illness

It's about psychological traits. You have traits. I have traits. Conservatives have traits.

What you have there is an educated opinion about a different topic.

[Posteritatis]

60. The use of said opinion in this thread suggests it's uneducated, too. (nt)

[Voice for Peace]

4. everyone should be allowed to vote.

[ZombieHorde]

16. When you say "everyone," do you really mean everyone?

All people, of all ages, everywhere in the world?

Or do you mean just some people should be allowed to vote?

[Voice for Peace]

41. lol

"some people" ≠ "everyone"

[Lone_Star_Dem]

5. Mentally ill and mentally disabled are two different things.

However, you'll be happy to know in Texas, not only do they vote, but the place is run by a bunch of certifiably insane politicians.

[DisabledDem]

6. I'm well aware of the two differences.

And those sick fucks from Texas such as Gov Goodhair just executec a man with an IQ of 61.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

8. That they did

Considering they did so siting fictional rules from Steinbeck, leads back to what I said in my first post.

[unapatriciated]

82. The mentally disabled vote in Georgia

I know one young woman who was a strong Obama supporter and she was very knowledgeable regarding politics. Than there is a group home run a RW Christian Church. They visit the grocery store where I work often. the day of the 2008 election, the group visited our store supporting McCain buttons and I voted stickers. That is truly sad.

[madrchsod]

7. my wife works with people with various degrees of mental disabilities

the higher functioning clients vote. the ones that do vote are fully aware or should i say just as aware as the average voter in the usa. if one can enter the voting booth by themselves and comprehend what they are doing then it`s their right to vote.

i vote at a senior citizens home. several years ago i heard a nurse say to an elderly lady "you always voted republican did`t you?" the women answered yes. i`m sure she has always voted republican. did u get upset or say anything...no.

[Lugnut]

13. I have a neighbor who is very high functioning.

He's pretty much illiterate. He told me he can read "a little" but he's very aware and has strong opinions. He's capable of physically voting but I'm not sure he can read the ballot.

I'm going to ask him if he will have the agency supervisor call me to discuss his situation. His family wants to dump him into a group home and he doesn't want to go. The sister who was his guardian recently passed away so he has opted to have an advocate to be his guardian. The whole neighborhood looks out for him and helps him out with groceries. His food stamps were recently cut and he runs out of food. This kind of situation should never happen in this country.

[jwirr]

11. The state I live in does not allow anyone who is under guardianship to vote. Thus one has to be

functional in order to be without a guardian and should be allowed to vote. There are some problems with this of course. Manipulation by people who want them to vote a certain way is one. But this also happens to the elderly - especially those in nursing homes. Regarding the state law it is assumed that anyone who can make major decisions for themselves can also know who will and will not help them politically.

My daughter is under guardianship so cannot vote but there is no one in this nation who is more affected by what out politicians do.

[OmahaBlueDog]

34. I'd be really curious to see how that would stand up in court

In this specific instance, it may not be an issue. However, if the ward (the person in guardianship) wants to vote, there is nothing in the constitution preventing it.

[jwirr]

42. I have thought about that but have never pursued it because I think what you would see is a lot of

them being handed over to guardians who were just looking for a voting block. I have watched how they use the seniors in nursing homes and I would hate to subject my daughter and her friends to the rethugs that are doing this.

But I agree that there should be some way that they would be represented. It is not a crime to be ill - at least not yet.

[susanr516]

70. Varies by state

In Texas, all guardianship orders issued after 9-1-2007 must state whether or not the court also disenfranchised the disabled person. I know a man who is under guardianship but follows politics closely and is quite capable of making an informed decision. In those cases, I fully support leaving the right to vote. I have a severely autistic grandson and we will soon have to go to court for guardianship. In his case, he is so impaired that he has no concept of what is involved with voting and I fully expect he will end up losing his right to vote.

[Odin2005]

15. I know a young woman with Downs Syndrome who votes.

[susanr516]

72. I agree that guardianship should not automatically disenfranchise someone

There are lots of mentally disabled people who may need a guardian when it comes to financial and contract issues, but who are capable of understanding the voting process and making a decision in the voting booth. I think disenfranchising that group is cruel. I believe a judge should only disenfranchise a person in guardianship if it is obvious the person lacks any ability to comprehend the voting process. My grandson falls into that group, and if he is disenfranchised as a result of our guardianship hearing, I will completely understand.

[ZombieHorde]

17. I think "we" should clearly state why we think some people can, but not other people.

Why can't 10-year-old kids vote? Should that reason apply to everyone?

Why can't prisoners vote? Should that reason apply to everyone?

etc.

[OmahaBlueDog]

35. 10 year olds can't vote because there is an age mandate in the Constitution. (nt)

[ZombieHorde]

53. We have lifted other voting mandates in the Constitution.

Why not lift the age mandate?

[NoPasaran]

55. The Twenty-Sixth Amendment guarentees the minimum age cannot be lower than 18

However, the individual states have the right to set a lower voting age should they choose to do so. Before the XXVI Amendment was ratified, some states had already lowered the voting age to 18.

[Zalatix]

36. Not allowing prisoners to vote is wrong.

[jwirr]

43. Well in the case of my daughter - she is severely disabled and would be considered about 6 months

old in terms of mental ability. I do not dispute her elimination but wish there was some way I could also vote for her.

[davidpdx]

19. I think the question is whether they can do it on their own

If they can't, what are the chances someone can influence them to vote the way they want them to. I'm not sure there is a right answer.

[DisabledDem]

24. Like such as this?

http://www.sptimes.com/State/113098/Debate_surrounds_voti.html

[davidpdx]

29. That's an interesting article

I support the right to vote for everyone. I just would hate to see someone manipulate how they vote. Like I said, I don't think there is one perfect answer for this.

[DisabledDem]

59. I felt those Republicans pushing Dubya brother should never be allowed to help the mentally disabled

[DonRedwood]

21. If they can buy a gun they should be able to vote.

There are going to be some people with so much brain damage that they may have no idea of what voting and its implications are. People in a vegetative coma are considered disabled. So, there are some people who, do to their disability, truly can't vote without complete assistance or without having any mental concept of what is going on.

Physical disabilities should have no bearing on voting though. Stephen Hawkings would be a good example of someone with a normal brain living in a body that doesn't work so well.

But how do we draw a line with mental disability? IQ? Do we IQ test everyone then to vote?

This question in the OP is an ethical can of worms!

[Posteritatis]

26. Why open the can at all? The franchise is the franchise.

If someone is actually unable to function entirely, that's usually pretty obvious, and certainly doesn't need a return to literacy tests.

[davidpdx]

31. I agree the physical disabilities really are not an issue

polling places should be ADA accessible or people should be able to vote absentee. Mental disabilities is a tougher call. IQ tests would probably be deemed illegal. It would be difficult to do, but if the person were in a facility of some kind, finding an advocate to help would be an idea. The problem is they would have to be impartial which is unlikely.

[OmahaBlueDog]

32. If you are 18 and not a felon - you can vote.

Period.

End of sentence.

[jwirr]

49. I would love that but what would you do with my daughter who is totally incapable of making life

decision and needs total care day and night?

[OmahaBlueDog]

58. Disclaimer: I am not an attorney and one should get qualified legal advice pertaining to their state

I think the intent is that is an individual has the desire to vote and the ability to choose a candidate, they are able to do so. So, if you are a fall-down drunk you can vote. If you have an illness requiring you to take anti-psychotic or anti-depressant drugs - you can vote.

I do not know if someone who has POA for an individual can register them to vote absentee and complete their ballot under the auspices of "acting on the best interest" of the individual being served. OTOH, I can't see any kind of state-mandated IQ test or metal examination qualification passing constitutional muster.

This is probably a really good ACLU question.

[thecrow]

33. Are you researching new ways to purge voters?

[DisabledDem]

37. I'm not the GOP, so my answer to that question is no.

[Zalatix]

38. Good question. It is why I haven't recced this thread.

[Posteritatis]

62. Large swathes of this site treat the mentally ill as a hated monolith, so wouldn't surprise me. (nt)

[Douglas Carpenter]

39. there are millions of people in all walks of life and from political persuasion who suffer some

degree of mental illness. The vast majority function quite well most of the time - the same way a diabetic or asthmatic or HIV+ person functions very well most of the time. There is no more reason why they shouldn't vote than why a diabetic, asthmatic or HIV+ person shouldn't vote.

I don't see anything wrong with describing right-wing extremist as crazy or nuts - but when we speak of actual mental illness in the clinical sense - it is cold and insensitive to equate mental illness in that manner. Diabetics, asthmatics and HIV+ people can be Republicans or Democrats, left-wing or right-wing, liberal or conservative and so can those who suffer some form of diagnosable mental illness.

[99Forever]

44. Personally...

... I'd settle for just keeping their hands off weapons, ALL weapons, but especially the semi-automatic human meatgrinding variety.

[Posteritatis]

61. There's a monolithic "they" there, now? (nt)

[99Forever]

66. Yes there is.

WTF is your point?

[Posteritatis]

68. And one more person on the "no clue what they're talking about" list. (nt)

[99Forever]

76. Ahh gee...

Last edited Sun Aug 12, 2012, 08:22 PM - Edit history (1)

.. and I was so hoping to make it on to your "has a clue what they're talking about" list.

I'm just fucking crushed.

[slackmaster]

45. Tough question.

Millions of people deal with mental illnesses but have not been adjudicated as mentally incompetent. They enjoy the full complement of civil rights, and that is the way things should be.

I'm ambivalent about making it illegal for a mentally incompetent person to vote. Votes of mentally incompetent people are likely to be somewhat random, so I doubt that they would have much of an impact on an election.

[hedgehog]

48. Really?

[GreenPartyVoter]

50. Watch out, everybody! I'm bipolar, and I vote!!

[jwirr]

51. Unfortunately in at least one small county in Iowa my brother and sister-in-law do not vote due to

the attitude of the idiots running the polls. I am going to suggest they register and vote absentee. See if that works.

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. That would be a good way around dealing with the people running the show.

[Odin2005]

73. DANGER, DANGER!!!

[GreenPartyVoter]

74. Tee hee!

[DisabledDem]

75. Haha

[Progressive dog]

56. Who gets to decide who's incompetent?

If they are incapable of voting, then they shouldn't vote. Otherwise they should be allowed to.

[slackmaster]

57. Only a court of law can do that

A person who has been adjudicated as mentally incompetent can still vote.

[Progressive dog]

64. Then they can stil vote nt

[slackmaster]

65. Yes they can. In my experience, getting someone declared incompetent is a very high legal hurdle.

Even someone who is bedridden in a nursing home and thoroughly demented from Alzheimer's disease can get pretty far gone before his or her family can convince a judge to declare the person incompetent, so as to take control of the finances and protect the patient from scammers.

A person who is in that condition is likely to be unaware than an election is taking place.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. A democracy is supposed to represent ALL the people.

[jillan]

71. If they are able to vote, yes they should...AFTERALL it is the programs that

benefit these groups that are put on the chopping block.

For example I have a special needs daughter, and even tho I am her legal guardian who makes decisions for her behalf (she's in her 20s) I would never take her to vote. She doesn't really understand & I would just be taking advantage of her.

At the same time, as an advocate, I have seen people who fall into these labels who are quite competent & know exactly what is going on.


It's a tough call tho, because who is to say who is mentally competent and who is not?
I don't think there is an easy answer to this one.

[Quantess]

77. No, they shouldn't vote? WTF are you asking?

Are you asking our opinion of whether we need to restrict voting?

Is that constitutional?

[Posteritatis]

78. A lot of people think "mentally ill" and "conservative" or "evil" or whatnot are synonymous

And keep hinting that they want policy to reflect that.

[Quantess]

79. Good grief, of course I think that is wrong!

At this point, we should be restoring voting privileges to convicted felons who have served their time, are out of prison, and are now good citizens, IMHO.

Especially because the USA is #1 in the world for the number of incarcerated per capita.

[Posteritatis]

80. Yep. Should be going in that direction, instead of further restricting the franchise

Especially for such casually bigoted reasons as the ones being suggested in this thread.

[Quantess]

81. Agreed. Now, where is the OP?