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Sat Sep 22, 2018, 03:35 PM

This is the fallacy, and disingenuous nature of Michael Moore's prognostications. If we lose in

the midterms he will quickly blame it on those "establishment" Democrats, while if the Democrats win he will say it was solely because of more progressive Democrats, ignoring the fact that the Democratic party is not a monolithic party, just as the country isn't . That was the whole idea behind Howard Dean's 50 state strategy because he recognized that

It is like those perpetual bull or bears on the market, eventually they get it right, but it has nothing to do with political realities, it is just a person voicing his opinion, and in Moore's case 95% of the time it will be doom and gloom

He was wrong when he said Romney would be president in 2012, and I for one will do my best to prove him wrong in 2018


142 replies, 10517 views

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Reply This is the fallacy, and disingenuous nature of Michael Moore's prognostications. If we lose in (Original post)
still_one Sep 2018 OP
manor321 Sep 2018 #1
NurseJackie Sep 2018 #7
3catwoman3 Sep 2018 #11
NurseJackie Sep 2018 #21
MaryMagdaline Sep 2018 #34
3catwoman3 Sep 2018 #74
George II Sep 2018 #58
NurseJackie Sep 2018 #59
MaryMagdaline Sep 2018 #82
Me. Sep 2018 #96
Pepsidog Sep 2018 #28
thegoose Sep 2018 #60
Fla_Democrat Sep 2018 #100
thegoose Sep 2018 #120
Pepsidog Sep 2018 #136
Adenoid_Hynkel Sep 2018 #131
BannonsLiver Sep 2018 #139
Jim Lane Sep 2018 #140
BannonsLiver Sep 2018 #142
lapucelle Sep 2018 #32
betsuni Sep 2018 #46
JI7 Sep 2018 #50
betsuni Sep 2018 #81
dalton99a Sep 2018 #127
jrthin Sep 2018 #104
MFM008 Sep 2018 #130
JI7 Sep 2018 #2
BannonsLiver Sep 2018 #3
justie18 Sep 2018 #44
BannonsLiver Sep 2018 #47
Me. Sep 2018 #4
still_one Sep 2018 #5
JI7 Sep 2018 #6
Me. Sep 2018 #8
Hortensis Sep 2018 #9
Me. Sep 2018 #13
Hortensis Sep 2018 #20
brush Sep 2018 #61
Hortensis Sep 2018 #75
Me. Sep 2018 #64
shanny Sep 2018 #10
NurseJackie Sep 2018 #18
BigmanPigman Sep 2018 #26
elleng Sep 2018 #38
shanny Sep 2018 #67
Cha Sep 2018 #73
betsuni Sep 2018 #85
Cha Sep 2018 #86
Me. Sep 2018 #98
Cha Sep 2018 #103
betsuni Sep 2018 #106
Cha Sep 2018 #107
betsuni Sep 2018 #111
Cha Sep 2018 #113
Me. Sep 2018 #109
elleng Sep 2018 #37
John Fante Sep 2018 #122
shanny Sep 2018 #133
betsuni Sep 2018 #12
Post removed Sep 2018 #14
JHan Sep 2018 #16
yardwork Sep 2018 #17
tiredtoo Sep 2018 #23
George II Sep 2018 #24
Auggie Sep 2018 #25
betsuni Sep 2018 #29
ProudLib72 Sep 2018 #36
mcar Sep 2018 #62
betsuni Sep 2018 #68
JHan Sep 2018 #71
betsuni Sep 2018 #72
JHan Sep 2018 #80
betsuni Sep 2018 #129
JHan Sep 2018 #141
mcar Sep 2018 #77
Cha Sep 2018 #76
betsuni Sep 2018 #79
Cha Sep 2018 #84
betsuni Sep 2018 #87
Cha Sep 2018 #90
dalton99a Sep 2018 #128
Separation Sep 2018 #15
George II Sep 2018 #19
Thekaspervote Sep 2018 #22
oasis Sep 2018 #27
DinahMoeHum Sep 2018 #30
mudstump Sep 2018 #43
DinahMoeHum Sep 2018 #49
watoos Sep 2018 #31
JI7 Sep 2018 #35
former9thward Sep 2018 #39
elleng Sep 2018 #40
brush Sep 2018 #65
JHan Sep 2018 #92
Hoyt Sep 2018 #33
elleng Sep 2018 #41
mudstump Sep 2018 #42
betsuni Sep 2018 #48
irisblue Sep 2018 #125
betsuni Sep 2018 #126
nini Sep 2018 #52
mcar Sep 2018 #78
rainy Sep 2018 #114
jalan48 Sep 2018 #45
nini Sep 2018 #53
jalan48 Sep 2018 #63
nini Sep 2018 #88
Me. Sep 2018 #66
jalan48 Sep 2018 #69
nini Sep 2018 #89
Me. Sep 2018 #94
jalan48 Sep 2018 #101
betsuni Sep 2018 #118
Me. Sep 2018 #93
betsuni Sep 2018 #102
nini Sep 2018 #108
betsuni Sep 2018 #110
nini Sep 2018 #51
nini Sep 2018 #54
NNadir Sep 2018 #55
JHan Sep 2018 #95
Adenoid_Hynkel Sep 2018 #132
LakeArenal Sep 2018 #56
still_one Sep 2018 #57
betsuni Sep 2018 #70
NNadir Sep 2018 #83
betsuni Sep 2018 #91
JHan Sep 2018 #97
still_one Sep 2018 #99
Cha Sep 2018 #116
Cha Sep 2018 #112
betsuni Sep 2018 #115
Cha Sep 2018 #117
D23MIURG23 Sep 2018 #105
jimlup Sep 2018 #119
JHan Sep 2018 #121
still_one Sep 2018 #123
JHan Sep 2018 #124
ecstatic Sep 2018 #134
tavernier Sep 2018 #135
betsuni Sep 2018 #137
proglib217 Sep 2018 #138

Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 03:38 PM

1. I stopped listening to him years ago

 

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Response to manor321 (Reply #1)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 04:22 PM

7. Michael Moore is worthless. A waste of human flesh with a big FAT ego. A master at self-promotion...

... which often reminds me of someone else that I also think is worthless. He benefits, he profits... only when Democrats lose. Little wonder that he and other blowhard loudmouths like him want to diminish Democrats and tarnish the "brand" of the Democratic Party.

Does he even OWN a comb? Does he EVER bathe or wash his hair?

Jesus, that guy give me the creeps and I can almost smell him through my TV screen.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:03 PM

11. So I am not alone in finding his unkempt appearance...

...very off-putting.

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Response to 3catwoman3 (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:26 PM

21. Absolutely not. You're not alone. I do, however, believe his sloppy appearance is intentional...

Absolutely not. You're not alone. I do, however, believe his sloppy appearance is intentional... it's not that he doesn't know better. It's part of an act or a "costume" --if you will-- that plays into the preconceived expectations of his fan-base. He's trying to convey a message that he's just "too smart" to bother with such superficial trivialities as bathing, combing his hair, wearing clean clothes, shaving, trimming his eyebrows or ear hair.

It's "a thing" ... it's "a gimmick"... it's something that I've seen others do who are trying to impress or persuade malcontents and purists.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:04 PM

34. I expressed just such an opinion with my 35-something cousin

Not about Michael Moore but the “bros” in general. The unkempt, greasy, unshaven look, I believe is a hostile message to girls and women to stay away. Boys club/boys treehouse only. A message they won’t even wash up for women and other humans. I also thought it was an anti-sex message. We’re not going to clean up for you b*****s.

Anyway, I am hippy-dippy, foundation and lipstick only but damn, I bathe!

I really don’t think bathing is a frivolous issue. I get an anti-female vibe from non-bathers. Michael Moore? Overgrown child. I think he’s the first grownup I remember wearing a baseball cap indoors. I don’t think he is a hater but I can’t know that.

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Response to MaryMagdaline (Reply #34)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:42 PM

74. Well, if it is a message to women to stay...

...away, it would certainly work on me.

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:45 PM

58. With an appearance like that, maybe he should try running for President?

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Response to George II (Reply #58)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:50 PM

59. ...

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Response to George II (Reply #58)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:07 PM

82. Funny!

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #21)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:41 PM

96. So Last Century!

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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:47 PM

28. He nailed the election results months before, I was skeptical but he called it. We should have

listened

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Response to Pepsidog (Reply #28)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:53 PM

60. What if he helped make it happen though?

 

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Response to thegoose (Reply #60)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:47 PM

100. is he Russian?






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Response to Fla_Democrat (Reply #100)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 11:59 PM

120. Uh, no

 

How many voters did he demoralize ala Susan Saranwrap...

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Response to thegoose (Reply #120)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 07:57 AM

136. Watch Trumpland by Moore. He goes back into heart of Trump country and vehemently defends Hillary.

I would recommend Trumpland by Moore. He goes into Trump country and shows how all Hillary ever did was try to help people. He defends her career and also warns that Trump will be elected and shows how by taking Wisconsin, Michigan and Pa. I have to love for or against Moore but the hairs stood up on the back of my neck when he said this. He tried to warn Dems so I don’t know why the hate. Again, I had limited experience with him and he may have done other things that weren’t so great for Dems but in Trumpland, a counter-intuitive title, he says Hillary is a bad ass that would be a great president.

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Response to Pepsidog (Reply #28)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 04:00 AM

131. He also swore presidents McCain and Romney were a lock

 

He always predicts a GOP victory.
He only lucked out when Comey's letter swung things at the last minute.
Hillary was leading and would have won otherwise.
The only time Moore didn't shit on Dem chances was 2004, when the party fed his ego and gave him Box seats with Jimmy Carter.
He was always jealous of Obama for winning and becoming a hero of the youth without consulting him

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Response to Pepsidog (Reply #28)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 10:00 AM

139. He also supported Nader in 2000.

Last edited Sun Sep 23, 2018, 01:35 PM - Edit history (1)

The “old sage” myth about Moore is for suckers.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #139)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 12:38 PM

140. AFAICT that's not accurate

 

There was a famous episode of Bill Maher's show in which Maher and Moore literally knelt down before Nader, begging him NOT to run in 2004. The video has apparently been pulled from YouTube but the Washington Post mentions the scene in this story.

The story quotes Maher, but I think his statement accurately reflects Moore's views as well:

"The first time, I never blamed Ralph for Bush winning, though I know a lot of people did," Maher says. "But this time, everybody I know who voted for Ralph last time is not going to vote for him this time. We all got a little reality slapped into us by George W. Bush. I regret that vote now. I see it as a bratty thing to have done."

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #140)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 01:34 PM

142. I meant 2000.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #32)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:19 PM

46. On Real Time, MM brings up Bill Maher's giving Democrats $2 million.

Asks Bill where he gets the money. As if MM doesn't have enough money to actually DO something to help Democrats win.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #46)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:29 PM

50. i read about that

i haven't watched it but i thought that was a weird thing to ask.

unless one is living and spending beyond their means it's very easy to have that much saved and easily on hand if you get paid what maher and others get paid for years.



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Response to JI7 (Reply #50)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:06 PM

81. It was weird.

Disingenuous. Everybody knows Bill's never been married, no kids, doesn't collect houses or fancy cars. Why wouldn't he have money. I guess MM was just thinking about his own divorce.

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Response to lapucelle (Reply #32)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 01:23 AM

127. His $5.2 million, 11,058-square-foot lakeside home:



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Response to NurseJackie (Reply #7)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:54 PM

104. Amen!!!!

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Response to manor321 (Reply #1)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 03:25 AM

130. Im THERE now

..........

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 03:38 PM

2. fuck him

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 03:40 PM

3. He also got it wrong in 2000

Al Gore was too far right for him. Al. Gore. Moore is kind of pathetic. I see him as a Peter Pan figure, among other things. His dumbed Down world view is exhausting at times. I watched Active Measures last night. If anyone’s looking for a deep and chilling dive into Trump and Russia without the circus antics and Obama hate and Dem bashing, that’s your movie.

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Response to BannonsLiver (Reply #3)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:16 PM

44. but

Based on his appearance on Bill Maher, there is plenty of Hillary bashing in Fahrenheit 11/9 , and sounds like a typcial Bernie Bro - if only the Dem's had been fair and allowed Saint Bernie to become the nomineee, everything would be just dandy.

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Response to justie18 (Reply #44)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:22 PM

47. Yeah the Hillary bashing makes me sick as well.

The election was stolen you TWIT.

(Michael Moore not you lol)

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 03:53 PM

4. He Needs To Stop

and go home to Michigan and pay attention to his responsibilities. His theatre is a mess and his actions put him in a very bad light. In fact, some of what he has done sounds very familiar, like something a person in the WH would do. Him beating up on Dems and, as he also has done, PBO puts him on the people who live in glass houses category.

This is a long read but sad that this is who/what he has become:

“In 2005, Michael Moore launched the Traverse City Film Festival, along with his dream of creating a nonprofit that brought cultural events and film classes to the Michigan lakeside town of 15,000 residents. Key to that vision was exhibition expert Chapin Cutler and his company, Boston Light & Sound. In addition to restoring and installing over 100 projectors for Quentin Tarantino and Christopher Nolan’s 70mm roadshows, Cutler also helped transform TCFF from asbestos-curtain movie screens to state-of-the-art cinemas.

Thirteen years later, with the festival in debt, two executive directors gone within five months, and struggling to find financial stability, Cutler is suing TCFF for an unpaid bill of more than $150,000. Meanwhile, TCFF dropped BL&S, with Moore suggesting at a recent public meeting that the company provided poor service to the industry…cont…

According to sources, by early 2018 it was clear that Moore was extremely angry with Cutler. Meanwhile, Moore recruited Sundance Institute veteran Joseph Beyer as Lake’s replacement, saying he offered “a unique combination of experience, creativity, and passion” and TCFF was “lucky” to hire him. In April, when Beyer officially took over, he was tasked with informing Cutler that not only would BL&S not be back in 2018, but the festival would only offer 50 cents on the dollar to settle its 2017 bill. Beyer would then quit TCFF three weeks after his start date, despite having moved to Michigan….cont…

Instead of doing something honorable and saying we don’t have the money, this what we’re going to do, are you willing to work with us on this, which we were very willing to do,” said Cutler. “They started flailing around and looking under the rug and putting together a lot of nonsense that basically that was all made up, because they were trying to find a way to scare us out of dropping the suit. Well, we’re not scared.”..cont…

https://www.indiewire.com/2018/09/michael-moore-smear-law-suit-boston-light-sound-chapin-cutler-1202003806/

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Response to Me. (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 04:02 PM

5. Interesting read, and does explain a lot about his modus operandi

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Response to still_one (Reply #5)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 04:04 PM

6. check out there comments after the article

can't say I'm surprised.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #6)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 04:32 PM

8. If This Is How He Behaves, He's No Liberal

"He acts like a liberal Donald Trump when it comes to human interaction and management"

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Response to Me. (Reply #4)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 04:41 PM

9. I've noticed the far left and far right both require a lot of

dishonest thinking to maintain whole belief systems in the face of reality. Probably the more extreme beliefs become, the farther from reality. When people are restyling the whole world, ignoring both little pieces and huge parts that don't fit their picture, would it be a surprise if it also becomes just a rather mundane habit affecting their views of everyday life?

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #9)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:14 PM

13. No That Doesn't Surprise Me

What always does and I guess it's naivete on my part, but, I'm always taken by how often these guys, cause it is mainly men, assume theirs is a Master Of The Universe resume.

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Response to Me. (Reply #13)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:25 PM

20. Bingo. Yes, that too. It's the overlap of their

declared values with ours that deceives, that misleads us into initially respecting them, then wondering how on earth they despise us.

Yet over the years I've finally understood that if our values were different theirs would be also. Because they live off the mainstream. Dissidence is their reason for being. Not difference, dissidence.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #20)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:11 PM

61. Your last two sentences nailed it exactly. If Sanders had won Moore would soon...

would soon have been making digs at him.

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Response to brush (Reply #61)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:46 PM

75. Exactly.

We're not in the liberal New Deal era any more. With the rise of right wing extremism since 1980, the indulgences of what have become destructive parasites are costing our nation bitterly. The times they've helped throw power to the right they might as well be their zealous counterparts on the right whom they resemble in too many ways.

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #20)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:15 PM

64. ...

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 04:48 PM

10. Maybe he was wrong in 2012 because

 

enough people listened to his warnings. And maybe he was right in 2016 because they didn't. There's no way to say, since we don't get to examine alternative timelines in alternative universes. For myself, I prefer to hope for the best and plan for the worst...i.e. vote as if my life depended on it. Because it does.

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Response to shanny (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:21 PM

18. Ha!! :-D


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Response to shanny (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:39 PM

26. I like him.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:06 PM

38. Ditto

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:19 PM

67. Me too.

 

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #26)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:42 PM

73. Wow, Michael Moore is a goddamn liar, Obama didn't say Flint water "was ok,"



I don't like Liars.. especially BullShit regarding President Obama who is out there campaigning for Dems



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Response to Cha (Reply #73)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:13 PM

85. He and others completely left out the filters. It takes less than a minute to Google this.

They will not succeed in demonizing Obama as they did with Hillary. WE WON'T LET THEM.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #85)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:17 PM

86. Damn Straight we won't let Moore and his fans Demonize

President Obama.. and you know he wants to.. for reasons.

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Response to Cha (Reply #73)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:43 PM

98. You Tell Him Cha!

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Response to Me. (Reply #98)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:54 PM

103. "I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of the Democratic Party is a greater roadblock to..

"In new film, Michael Moore compares Trump to Hitler. And he's not so crazy about Obama, either."

"I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of the Democratic Party is a greater roadblock to social progress than Trump"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/09/07/new-film-michael-moore-compares-trump-hitler-hes-not-so-crazy-about-obama-either/?utm_term=.77221405d03e

"trump is comparable to hitler", but it's the Democratic Party(old guard).. Like John Lewis?.. that is the roadblock. He's an idiot.. and so Full of Shite.

MM also said that said in another interview that Obama was "the best president of my lifetime and I lived during the time of JFK."

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11166836

Editing.. Moore was born in 1954 .. so he was 9 when JFK was assassinated.

betsuni!

Me

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Response to Cha (Reply #103)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:07 PM

106. Thanks for providing link. I am lazy.

You gave me a fright thinking MM was younger than I am. He was born in 1954.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #106)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:15 PM

107. Omg.. He's "64" not born in 1964!

Sorry! And, Thank You for the correction!

So he was 9 years old when JFK was assassinated

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Response to Cha (Reply #107)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:26 PM

111. You're welcome.

He keeps saying that weird thing about liberals not being able to do math, so it wouldn't be surprising if he got his own age wrong.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #111)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:28 PM

113. Oh yeah, he thinks he's made a big funny joke.

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Response to Cha (Reply #103)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:17 PM

109. Yes Indeedy...A Nice Catch

Clearly, he's off his rocker and better be careful or he'll end up barking mad just like the Comrade in the WH

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Response to shanny (Reply #10)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:05 PM

37. Thanks

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Response to shanny (Reply #10)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 12:27 AM

122. Moore was a bigger afterthought in '12 than he is today. He influenced nothing.

He said Obama would only be remembered for being the first black president, and he predicted a Romney win because that's what he wanted.

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Response to John Fante (Reply #122)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 07:33 AM

133. Riiiight.

 

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:13 PM

12. The way he's going after Obama, Moore must see him as a threat.

A threat to the revolution, or whatever the hell is going on inside his head.

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Response to still_one (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:19 PM

16. The talking points Michael pushes are used by right wingers against Dems.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:20 PM

17. Expressing opinions on an opinion board is not bullying.

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Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:33 PM

23. Ditto eom

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Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:37 PM

24. He's a "D"? Do we really know that? Remember, he's the one who said....

....(not an exact quote) that a vote for Gore is like a vote for bush, and also thinks that Obama was a "disappointment".

With "D"s like that.....

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Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:38 PM

25. +1

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Response to Post removed (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:48 PM

29. MM bashes Dems: "I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of the Democratic Party

is a greater roadblock to social progress than Trump." Pushing the "both sides are the same" which helps Republicans. Both sides are the same is a lie.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #29)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:05 PM

36. I always use the DU test

If MM was on DU and posting what he says in public, would he get banned?

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Response to betsuni (Reply #29)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:11 PM

62. He said that?

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Response to mcar (Reply #62)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:21 PM

68. Yup, said it was one of the reasons he made the film.

Democrats are "taking half-measures, because they're beholden to the same money and interests"

There are going to be lots of people parroting that old "the DNC rigged the election" crap again.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #68)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:30 PM

71. See I read that and I think the man is just plain ignorant..

See , what I did I tell you tho, Dems have SUPER AGENCY.

Dems can DO ANYTHING!

"Political Realities" are a rumor spread by Wildings.

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Response to JHan (Reply #71)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:39 PM

72. It's true. He honestly doesn't understand why Democrats can't just demand things

and do what they want. He thinks it HAS to be that they just don't try, they're too nice, "it's okay, you can have another Supreme Court justice." The Republicans are in power and it's the Democrats' fault, "It's on them. Their inability to have a message and run candidates that people love."

He says about Republicans: "They fight for the things they believe it. They stand up for things they believe in. They don't relent. You have to admire that about conservatives and Republicans. They have the courage of their convictions."

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Response to betsuni (Reply #72)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:03 PM

80. It's partly envy, they want to behave as Republicans behave.

Republicans are the worst at governance because of their ideological tunnel vision.

But remember the expectation that should Hillary become president, she will be "held to account", and if she wavers on anything punished? There was even talk of primarying her in 2020. It's all part of their "progressive vs neo-liberal" schema, a schema they're addicted to and hold on to even when proven wrong.

And they admire the Right. They like the bullying, the idiocy. They want to be like that, "You have to admire conservatives and Republicans, they have the courage of their convictions".

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Response to JHan (Reply #80)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 02:00 AM

129. Yes, I now understand the envy of the party with ideological tunnel vision.

It's simple, black and white, literal, they're always the victim, arrogant, don't listen, quick to use personal insults, poor reading comprehension, can't tell facts from opinion, won't admit when they are wrong, project their faults onto everyone else, blame other people for everything, depend on talking points instead of using their own words, have no empathy, lie. Very clear.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #129)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 01:34 PM

141. Yes ++ It's tempting to describe this as horseshoe theory BUT..

there's no specific point where the left wing and right wing converge. The impetus for political activism is just different on the hard left compared to the hard right.

What Moore doesn't understand is power, real political power. The GOP understands that, and he's conflating their lust for power with moral conviction.

But our conversation makes me think of how someone can become a useful idiot or how a worldview can make you susceptible to ideas which lead to worse outcomes.

Ideologies are complex, beliefs vacillate depending on changing circumstances but the consequences of elections in a political system where the filibuster dominates, means elections become a zero-sum game. Right after the 2016 election, I saw leftists take aim at Identity Politics, feeding conservative narratives about diverse representation in politics. The same people in the crosshairs of the Trump administration were admonished for demanding political action on the issues which impacted them the most: These people also happen to make up the base of the Democratic party. To make the concerns of the WWC the epicenter of Politics, or characterizing their concerns as the real "bread and butter" issues, dovetailed with Trump's rhetoric. So worldviews converged even though they came from different points.

Historically, we've seen this phenomenon result in disastrous consequences, particularly with anti-semitism. A worldview, even one rooted in "justice for all", can end up punishing the vulnerable. For Polish Communists, for example, it was too easy to buy into Anti-Zionist rhetoric. "Zionism" - which is a call for self-determination among Jewish people - was twisted into conspiratorial theorizing which claimed that Jews were only interested in consolidating economic wealth to the disadvantage of everyone else- a very old tired trope going back centuries. Just 2 decades after the Holocaust, in a country which saw the greatest crimes of the Holocaust, antisemitism reared its head again, with Polish Communists demanding the exile of Jews from public life or demanding Jews denounce Zionism - Which didn't guarantee that Jews weren't exiled anyway, because at the end of it all, even for Communists, a Jew remained someone to be distrusted. To this day, this conspiratorial view of Zionism persists among the left. We're too familiar with how Goldman-Sachs is talked about more than J.P Morgan (it's my belief that Goldman-Sachs gets more attention than J.P Morgan because of the name), and memes like the "Zionist Capitalist Agenda" , "Zionist Banks" etc.

This isn't to say that hard lefties and hard righties are the same, but ideology and politics can make strange bedfellows when you don't correctly identify who the real enemy is.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #68)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:50 PM

77. And once again trying to suppress the vote

One questions MM's motivation.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #29)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:47 PM

76. With that quote.. Michael Moore is a fucking idiot..

"I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of the Democratic Party is a greater roadblock to social progress than Trump"

Did he say that on Maher's show? Thanks, betsuni

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Response to Cha (Reply #76)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:00 PM

79. That was from another interview.

Quotes included in a Washington Post article, "In new film, Michael Moore compares Trump to Hitler. And he's not so crazy about Obama, either."

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Response to betsuni (Reply #79)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:11 PM

84. And, last night I read Moore said Obama was the greatest

President of his life or something.

"In new film, Michael Moore compares Trump to Hitler. And he's not so crazy about Obama, either."

"I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of the Democratic Party is a greater roadblock to social progress than Trump"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/09/07/new-film-michael-moore-compares-trump-hitler-hes-not-so-crazy-about-obama-either/?utm_term=.77221405d03e

"trump is comparable to hitler", but it's the Democratic Party(old guard).. Like John Lewis?.. that is the roadblock. He's an idiot.. and so Full of Shite.


Thanks for the source.

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Response to Cha (Reply #84)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:18 PM

87. Yes, he did, and said in another interview that Obama was "the best president of my lifetime,

and I lived during the time of JFK." Pretty passive-aggressive, or something.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #87)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:31 PM

90. Awfully both sides of his GD mouth..

Last edited Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:18 PM - Edit history (1)

And, yet he has fans on here who don't care he's a Liar.. especially about President Obama.

Edited: Moore was born in 1954 so he was 9 when JFK was born.

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Response to Cha (Reply #90)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 01:34 AM

128. +1. Michael Moore is for Michael Moore - a lying opportunist who is no friend of Democrats

He is good at taking money out of your pocket

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:18 PM

15. Moore lives in a glass house

I laughed my ass off when Maher threw that divorce dig at him...then he kinda walked it back. I still laughed my ass off.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:23 PM

19. That's the way he and his type operate - Democrats win in spite of themselves, or lose....

....because of themselves.

Kind of how some try to justify their House or Senate votes - "I voted in favor of it because it would have passed anyway", or "I voted against it because it would have failed anyway."

Sound familiar?

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:26 PM

22. Thank you! Just f..king go away mr moore

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:41 PM

27. MM can KMA.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:49 PM

30. Michael Moore has become a fuckin' drama queen. . .

. . .and I, for one, am tired of his Chicken Little shit.

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Response to DinahMoeHum (Reply #30)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:11 PM

43. Yeah...let's eat our own...especially the ones with the biggest microphones...

Who needs 'em?

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Response to mudstump (Reply #43)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:26 PM

49. I direct you back to post #4. . .

. . .and the follow-up therein.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 05:54 PM

31. I have been saying the same that Moore has been saying for years.

 

Our country is left. When you talk issue by issue it is clear that our country is left.

The M$M calls that Socialism and makes people afraid to support it. I'm a proud Socialist, I love my Medicare, my Social Security. I love my town's flood control project that was done by the Army Corp of Engineers. I love that my streets are paved that my interstate highways are plowed of snow.

I think that is the point that Moore is making. I think Democrats should have a huge tent. I voted for Bernie then I voted for Hillary. I have no problems with Democrats whether they be left, center, or right. Well maybe what Joe Lieberman did killing the Obamacare public option, but I guess he was an Independent when he did that, get my drift?

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Response to watoos (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:04 PM

35. no, the people that voted for Trump are not left. they are bigots and that is not liberal

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Response to watoos (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:07 PM

39. This country is not socialist.

None of the things you mention are socialist. You may be a proud Socialist but it should be because of concepts that are actually socialist.

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Response to watoos (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:07 PM

40. Thanks

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Response to watoos (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:16 PM

65. Moore is a professional dissident. If Sanders had won he would be Moore's target.

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Response to watoos (Reply #31)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:36 PM

92. okay, I think the idea that "the country is actually left" is a dangerous fantasy.

People don't vote Republican because Dems don't run enough Socialists.

(Also, an expansive social safety net does not equal socialism. Infrastructure reform, good schools etc are not socialist concepts)

We don't all share the same values. Understand that people liked Roy Moore not because he was seen as an upstanding guy, but because he's devoted time to insulting and targeting non-whites, non-christians, and gays. There are people who support candidates who hate the same people they hate and that's enough for them. Michael Moore needs to appreciate that Trump held an appeal for millions of Americans, that people within the state he grew up in has values and opinions different to his and their values and opinions aren't the results of being brainwashed necessarily, but a matter of choice.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:00 PM

33. I get some, maybe most, of the criticism, but Moore is hardly our enemy.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #33)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:08 PM

41. Right

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:09 PM

42. So we are really attacking Michael Moore....?

Moore has been sounding the alarm for years now and some here feel the need to attack one of our own?....Can't we at least identify the enemy correctly?....and it ain't Michael Moore.

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Response to mudstump (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:25 PM

48. Moore has identified the enemy: "I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of the

Democratic Party is a greater roadblock to social progress than Trump." Democrats are worse than Trump. He calls Obama a liar, accused him of: "Obama sends the Pentagon in to use Flint for target practice and for ten days and nights in a row, fires missiles and bombs into abandoned buildings, troops firing their guns." And much more.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #48)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 12:39 AM

125. wait...source for those statements please?

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Response to mudstump (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:31 PM

52. 'our own'???

LOLOLOLOL

Not any more.

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Response to nini (Reply #52)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:51 PM

78. +1000!

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Response to mudstump (Reply #42)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:33 PM

114. Thank you!!! WTF! I just saw Fahrenheit 11-9

It’s profound and moving. What is happening here at DU?

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:17 PM

45. Some seem to feel we are perfect and deserve no criticism. Time to get over it and fight

against our real opponents.

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #45)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:32 PM

53. No. we're not perfect

But we're sure as hell the only hope this country has right now. So if he chooses to bash that can help he is the enemy.

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Response to nini (Reply #53)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:15 PM

63. LOl-No. Michael Moore is not the enemy.

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #63)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:24 PM

88. ANYONE who would rather split the Democrats right now is indeed the enemy

This country is in a crisis and his BS is not helping one bit. The republicans love what he's doing. He's helping pull votes from the people who can help stop this nightmare.

More purity BS that will give us decades of fascism. No thanks. I'd like to save democracy and my grandson's future.

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #45)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:19 PM

66. There's Self Serving Criticism

and constructive criticism. He needs to acquaint himself with the latter 'cause if he's helping them he's not helping us and that does make him the enemy. What does he think is going on here?

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Response to Me. (Reply #66)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:23 PM

69. Do you think Republican's listen to Michael Moore? Are we all supposed to walk in lock step?

Showing that we are open to criticism and answering it is OK. I hope we're more real than simply being cheerleaders.

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #69)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:27 PM

89. You really don't seem to understand how at risk this country is right now

Right before the most important election in the history of this country - he's criticizing Democrats. Fuck him sideways.

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Response to nini (Reply #89)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:40 PM

94. Nicely Put

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Response to nini (Reply #89)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:49 PM

101. I totally get it. Just like I got it when Bush and Cheney were running torture centers around the

world and Reagan was supporting death squads in Central America before that. Trump is just the latest step in our slide toward Fascism-the logical continuation of previous actions by Republicans.

FYI-Moore said on Maher last night that Obama is probably the greatest President of this generation. Moore's message is to get out and vote and not be overconfident like we were in 2016. Just because he doesn't agree 100% with Democrats doesn't mean he's our enemy.

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Response to nini (Reply #89)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:53 PM

118. The conversation that always happens in these discussions:

A: Stop lying about Democrats. (State lie: DNC rigged the election, Democrats don't want universal health care, Obama wanted people in Flint to drink poisoned water, people voted for Trump because of economic insecurity, Democrats are a bigger roadblock to social progress than Trump, etc.)

B: Why do you think Democrats are perfect and deserve no criticism? (Include your choice of the following: lock step, circular firing squad, cheerleading, blind allegiance, echo chamber, the party is always right, etc.)

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #69)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:38 PM

93. I Think THey Use His Criticisms Against The Dems

And isn't it charming how willing he is to hand it over to them. It isn't a matter of being a cheerleader but not allowing yourself to be unnecessarily vulnerable or handing the Cons ammunition to use or perhaps you haven't been watching their tactics. Moore and others, like Sarandon, have been more of a hindrance/harm than anything else and as I said, he has enough problems of his own that he isn't dealing with. And he's no rose either...maybe he needs a dose of his own criticism medicine.

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Response to jalan48 (Reply #69)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:49 PM

102. Trump's "Crooked Hillary" came from "Hillary and the DNC rigged the election."

They listen.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #102)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:17 PM

108. Yep.. they laid the groundwork and I will never forgive those involved for it

ever.

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Response to nini (Reply #108)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:23 PM

110. Me neither.

EVER.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:31 PM

51. He knows exactly what he's doing and it ain't for the overall good

ANYONE who chooses this time in our history to bash the only party that an pull us out of this is the ENEMY.

No exceptions.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:38 PM

55. I would rather that this ass who said in 2000 that Bush was the same as Gore...

...keep his horseshit to himself.

He won't, because he makes a living making supercilious comments about disasters he himself works to create.

He reminds me of an arsonist who makes tons of money putting out fires.

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Response to NNadir (Reply #55)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:41 PM

95. ++++++

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Response to NNadir (Reply #55)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 04:09 AM

132. When Dems catered to Moore in 2004, he sang a different song

 

And tried to rewrite history, claiming he bailed on Nader, along with other still-unnamed celebs a month before the election

Total horseshit.

Moore spoke at Nader's DC super rally, less than a week before Election Day

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:39 PM

56. Mike Moore is irrelevant as Susan Sarandon

Moore is pushing a book. No one’s buying a book that doesn’t have something to say.

Trash sells.

Sarandon and Moore both pop off to keep themselves in the news.

Bad press is as valuable to them as good press.

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Response to LakeArenal (Reply #56)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:43 PM

57. Actually that insight is very true

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 07:29 PM

70. Here's why he thinks Republicans win:

"They fight for the things they believe in. They stand up for things they believe in and they don't relent. You have to admire that about conservatives and Republicans. They have the courage of their convictions."

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Response to betsuni (Reply #70)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:10 PM

83. Which, of course, shows how delusional Moore is.

Last edited Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:46 PM - Edit history (1)

Republicans don't "win" because they care. They "win" because the manipulate the system to retain power, and having no interest in anything but power itself since they lack principles, they live and work only for power. Their interest in power is chiefly concerned with the acquisition and concentration of money for themselves.

For Moore to suggest that a "fight for something they believe in" is involved is to expose his own ignorance of the fact that the Republicans of today clearly believe in nothing..

He's a clueless little mind, that Moore. (He might consider changing his first name to "Roy;" because the intellectual levels of Roy and Michael seem pretty damned close from where I sit.)

Republicans win because they appeal to ignorance and racism which highly motivates the holders of ignorance and racism to vote in districts gerrymandered to give those who accept ignorance and racism power to exercise inappropriate weight.

On the other hand, ersatz "liberals" like Moore, appeal to ridicule and hopelessness - albeit with a healthy dash of stupidity - and self congratulation of their own nobility.

I have no use for Moore and haven't since 2000. He is an intellectual Lilliputian, comfortable among intellectual Lilliputians who comment on other intellectual Lilliputians.

He is, and always will be, a cynical useless excuse for a human being.

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Response to NNadir (Reply #83)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:33 PM

91. "He is an intellectual Lilliputian, comfortable among intellectual Lilliputians who comment on other

intellectual Lilliputians." Well said.

He's in a bubble, similar to the bubbles Fox News creates.

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Response to NNadir (Reply #83)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:43 PM

97. this in a nutshell.

I've never been able to express my reservations about him so concisely. Thank you.

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Response to NNadir (Reply #83)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 08:45 PM

99. Well said

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Response to NNadir (Reply #83)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:37 PM

116. Yes! But, Moore doesn't recognize that bc it doesn't fit

his narrative of praising Repubs and Slamming The Democratic Party.

"In new film, Michael Moore compares Trump to Hitler. And he's not so crazy about Obama, either."

"I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of the Democratic Party is a greater roadblock to social progress than Trump"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2018/09/07/new-film-michael-moore-compares-trump-hitler-hes-not-so-crazy-about-obama-either/?utm_term=.77221405d03e

betsuni

"trump is comparable to hitler", but it's the Democratic Party(old guard).. Like John Lewis?.. that is the roadblock. He's an idiot.. and so Full of Shite.


Thank You, NNadir.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #70)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:26 PM

112. OH JFC! And, a whole lot of fucking help from their Russian

masters.

Yes, do tell us about their fucked up "convictions", asshole.

SMH.

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Response to Cha (Reply #112)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:34 PM

115. Oh, that's perfect!

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Response to betsuni (Reply #115)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:39 PM

117. lol

Michelle

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 09:00 PM

105. He's a garbage level propagandist - a Sean Hannity for the left.

IMO we don't need that shit.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sat Sep 22, 2018, 10:52 PM

119. not really

I agree with Michael and he is one of the few who actually has noticed what is going on. If we want to win, maybe we should consider listening instead of blaming.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 12:07 AM

121. Know what? I'll be more charitable....

1) I'm reading reviews and if I come across one which suggests I'll learn more about the flint crisis than I currently know, I'm willing to watch the movie while editing out Moore's disingenuous criticisms.

2) It's good that Flint is the focus. The story has died down at a time when the Trump administration is gutting the EPA and stripping regulations governing water safety and pollutants.

3) It's good Moore apparently focused on the connection between Trump and fascism. ( I don't agree that Trump is a Hitler, he's more Mussolini)

Ordinarily, I wouldn't attack an ally, but I don't think I should be silent if that ally attacks other allies without sound reason. I think it's fine to point out logically inconsistent positions. How can one say that it's a tragedy the winner of the popular vote didn't win the presidency but then claim that "bernie should have won the primaries" when bernie lost the primary by the popular vote too? And this is where it seems Moore once again plays to the audience he's cultivated over the past couple of decades, at times prioritizing this audience's biases over facts. It's important to point out when he does this because disinformation can metastasize into false narratives and memes which spread far and wide while truth limps behind.

If I do decide to watch it, now I know what to expect and I'll brace myself for the cheap shots.

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Response to JHan (Reply #121)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 12:34 AM

123. The Flint Crisi isn't due to President Obama. The Flint water crisis is due to the State and local

officials that the people of Michigan elected

Perhaps they should take some responsibility instead of using President Obama as a scape goat


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Response to still_one (Reply #123)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 12:37 AM

124. Exactly but Moore can't help but issue out shitty attacks like that..

President Obama is "the establishment" so President Obama ends up in the firing line. This is Moore's schtick.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 07:43 AM

134. I'm sick of him! Half the shit he says is inaccurate

How can you go on a media tour without having your facts straight? And nobody really calls him on it, he's allowed too say whatever the hell he wants, completely unchallenged.

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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 07:56 AM

135. I get tired of the "opinionators"

I prefer listening to people who research and gather the facts and present them to me without additional observation.

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Response to tavernier (Reply #135)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 08:35 AM

137. Moore:

Obama was "coming to Flint and telling people the water was okay. It was still poisoned. And then he pretended to drink from a glass of water. And then said it wasn't a stunt and it was."

"Obama sends the Pentagon in to use Flint for target practice for ten days and nights in a row, fires missiles and bombs into abandoned buildings, troops firing their guns. Nobody was told in advance they were coming, people thought it was a terrorist attack."

About Republicans: "They fight for the things they believe in. They stand up for things they believe in, they don't relent. You have to admire that about conservatives and Republicans. They have the courage of their convictions."

"I've come to the conclusion that the old guard of the Democratic Party is a greater roadblock to social progress than Trump."



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Response to still_one (Original post)

Sun Sep 23, 2018, 09:50 AM

138. Man, what a bunch of haters

 

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