Been using a new tact with Republicans. ie. Immigration.

Good try! But you can’t fix stupid, but hopefully at least one of them got it.

democrats want more immigrants to vote for democrats so they can get "free stuff."

i know that is ridiculous, but i interact with "conservatives" on other boards all the time and they are convinced that it is democrats who want "open borders" for purposes of voter fraud. no matter that most undocumented immigranrs are employed in red county agribusiness.

I could be wrong. Maybe it goes nowhere. Perhaps it helped not one iota. But I could see the wheels turning.

personally, i don't think we need illegal immigrants, but we need to treat everyone humanely, legal or not.

No one will ever admit to your face that they got suckered.

But it makes them think and changes behavior.

since they fear that they could be arrested and deported. They want to either lay low or blend into the crowd rather than stand in line to be asked for identification.

I wish they could. I have strong feelings about that. Undocumented people can encourage their relatives who have their papers to vote. That's about it. Lots of the undocumented from Mexico are really refugees from the drug cartels. But, that's not how most people in the USA see it.

I don't believe any country in the world permits that

I do get what you're saying, though.

There are many people who don't do either of those that still have the right to vote.

I paid taxes in New York, but I was never able to vote in New York.

I'm all for very liberal immigration laws, but once we Democrats start advocating for the vote for non-citizens, we open ourselves to massive attacks by republicans.

*I kid. A little. Maybe there were fewer. Not enough to swing an election, even in Florida in 2000:

"A 2014 comprehensive study by the Brennan Center for Justice found there were only 31 credible allegations of fraud over 1 billion votes cast. In fact, far more legal citizens have been rejected at the polls for lacking proper identification." (actually the study was completed in 2007; I think a WaPo article about it was published in 2014)

--https://campaignlegal.org/update/republicans-and-democrats-agree-there-no-widespread-voter-fraud

lemmesee. if I haven't misplaced the decimal or a zero or two, the number of credible voter fraud cases found in that study came to .0000031% of the vote.

The moment I leave out the word is when someone will come along to point out the exception.

Apologies.

Because they might get pulled over for some real or imagined infraction and get deported.

we are the sum of our experiences . so hopefully their experience with you gives them pause.

And planting seeds of doubt wherever I can.

Listened to a lady go on and on about trump. All I said was "he sure likes to toot his own horn". She turned around and walked away.

for the people who immigrate to do the jobs. If they really wanted to stop illegal immigration, they would treat current immigrants the way our ancestors were. They came, did the hardest and lowest paying jobs, and might have experienced bigotry, but at least not "illegality."

As right wingers, they are usually against "government interference" in business, yet for this issue, suddenly they are. Let the market take care of it. Immigrants would not come if there weren't jobs. Were there huge numbers of immigrants during the Depression? Why are they suddenly for government regulation? The citizen speaks English already, and would have the advantage. Why are illegal aliens preferable? Because they are illegal. If they weren't, they would not have an advantage. Now they do because they have no standing to complain if they are not paid minimum wage, etc. They cannot enforce worker protections.

Republicans have no intention of stopping this system. It would go away as a wage issue and would force them to provide worker protection laws to every worker.

that resulted in so many staying...because they knew there were jobs but it became too difficult to go back and forth.

half the year in Mexico (when the harvests are not being done) - if they had visas they could do that, to the supposed gladness of the right wingers.

Back when Lou Dobbs, when he worked for another cable news network, he would rail every night against undocumented workers. His daughter had 2 undocumented workers tending her horses.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of the GOP on immigration. Again, maybe I'm missing into the wind with this, but if I can pull back the curtains on the great and terrible OZ for just a few? Maybe they change a couple minds too.

to keep his golf course running at Mar a Lago...

I forgot about those visas!

Suggest they read a bit about Devin Nunes's family farm in Iowa (long read, but very enjoyable):

Devin Nunes’s Family Farm Is Hiding a Politically Explosive Secret
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a23471864/devin-nunes-family-farm-iowa-california/

Nation wide, that may be one of the biggest extortion rackets on earth. Repugs tell ICE to turn a blind eye to illegals so long as their employers support the GOP.

GOP = Hypocrisy-R-Us.......

I live out of a suitcase 4 days a week. I'll try it this week!

And, I remember well when we smokers were forced outdoors and when flying got to be a pain in the ass.

Felt good to retire, but still sometimes miss the great sights and cultures around America. Don't miss the filthy, hot work I did and sometimes lousy food, though.

......

Electrician?

in large air pollution control systems - ESPs, scrubbers, baghouses, etc., but mainly precipitators.

"Hot" as in going in to inspect thermally hot units right after shut down and hot as in electrical control work, a few times with 4160 but mostly 480 stuff. We did run an ESP up to over 100kV one time in Pennsylvania and that was scary as hell.

Don't miss that danger either. Got hit by 120 the other day changing a light switch, just as a reminder, LOL.

Telecom. Completely different animal. Much safer in a -48V environment. I'll never forget the reaction I got from a Union electrician when I showed him the difference in potential from ac to dc. Make a long story short, I grabbed a hot bar in a distribution bay. As I reached for the return bar and made contact, he cowered and shielded his face like I was going to explode. LOL! He was in utter disbelief as I explained, while I had one hand on hot and one hand on return, that with 48v there's not enough voltage to overcome the resistance of my skin. Enough amperage to kill a herd of elephants, but not gonna get you. Unless you're reeeaaaaaallllllly sweaty. Still cracks me up thinking about his reaction.

For years - at least through the 90s and early aughts - we could freely open and work in 480V gear, but with proper permits. However, lockout/tagout has always been strict. But toward the end of my work years, the safety requirements got to be outrageous, requiring full protective FR and flash-resistant gear just to do a simple test in a cabinet.

I always have, however, appreciated the strict safety training that created a constant consciousness of caution both for electrical and mechanical work. That probably saved my life more times than I'll never know because complacency kills.

Funny you mentioned the phone line voltage. I just fixed a neighbor's phone yesterday where the cable guys had installed a cable modem with digital phone service 30 or so years ago and somehow got the line polarity reversed. My friend's Princess wall phone touchtone pad hadn't worked since then, although his wireless VTech phones worked OK. I checked it with my DVM, reversed the wires, and all was well again.

I love fixing safe, simple stuff nowadays......

I'm not cavalier about electricity. The only reason I did that was because he knew nothing about -48v DC. And as a union electrician, he'd have never believed me if I told him.

But yeah, complacency is extremely dangerous. A few years back we were moving batteries from one room to another. The press-in nuts on the disconnect are machined so well you can thread in a bolt all the way up to the lock washer by hand. I was taking the leads off the disco and my insulated tools were outside. You see where this is going. Ahh fuck it. I know what I'm doing! Been doing it for years. I just have to break the bolts loose. One half or a quarter turn and I'm golden! I grabbed my Husky ratchet. Guess what, there was a bare c-tap frame/aisle ground right next to my head just out of my peripheral vision. Yeah. I touched that fucker with my ratchet and BOOM! In a blink of an eye It melted the socket and welded it to the ratchet. Scared the shit out of me. Damn near fell off the ladder! But I'm glad I did it. No one got hurt. Nothing went down. Hell, didn't even put anything in alarm. But, it was a wake up call. I'm good for at least 15 more years before I take a chance like that again. The problem with complacency is it leads to more risky behavior if you're successful cutting that corner. Glad it happened. Woke me up.

'cause he's seen the videos of those higher voltage things faulting out and killing people, so I understand his instinctive caution.

You're wise to share and describe that incident and it would make a good training example for those that follow you. Maybe even show them the welded ratchet!

BTW, my former business partner worked for Ma Bell back in the good old days and I learned a lot from him and others about the extremely high standards the Bell System and Western Electric set for all their gear (like that 40 year old phone from yesterday that still works). Can't tell you how much respect I have for those companies (and Bell Labs) and all they did for America, including our military. It's also why (showing my age) I insist on keeping my old POTS line in service, LOL.

..........

Albeit it was Lucent at the time. But my mentors where all 30 year vets that began as, Western Electric guys. Went to training at Bell labs in Naperville, IL. Trained by thee best. Good talking shop with you EnviroGuy. Height of me morning!

Just as a parting note, in my senior year of college I turned down a job offer from Bell Labs when it was still in Jersey. This southern country boy was afraid of moving so far north and the big cities. And, I had some apprehension that I wasn't smart enough for Bell Labs (they, NASA and Texas Instruments were top dogs at that time in the 60s for graduate EEs). May well have been the biggest mistake of my life, but I'll never know!

Retirement brings with it the task of endless soul-searching, LOL.

..........

If you're trying to convince them, you're expecting them to think.

You made a great argument. Bravo.

No doubt about that. Whether it changed a mind or not is the question. But they were definitely putting 2+2 together. Maybe they came up with eleventy-two. But I'm trying.

My line goes like this: If you hire someone without a green card then you are the criminal. Carry it further if you hire someone without a green card card then you should be held responsible for their family for life. All this really does is shut them up they are incapable of thinking beyond a few talking points.

1) That would require anyone currently without a green card to be unemployable, including many who have been here for decades and have raised families etc. That would force them all back to their countries of origin which would probably please many of the RW

2) There are some that have used stolen or forged documents to obtain employment. If you are going to hold employers responsible for hiring, you also need to arrest and charge those who used fake documents felonies for identify theft

3) Many undocumented workers are paid under the table making both them and those who employ them guilty of evading taxes as well as cheating the state of workers comp and unemployment taxes. Those situations are nearly impossible to stop and makes it virtually impossible for those employers who are following the rules to compete. This can be prevalent in things like roofing, drywall, landscaping and other construction businesses.

or the disastrous results if that system collapses. This practice is also prevalent in heavy industry, which I witnessed in my years in field service.

And now, the criminal mob run by Trump is using threats of visits by ICE to bribe companies to support the GOP.

It's a huge elephant in our room hiding in the shadows of all of America.....

Definitely with some protections, however, I do note my ancestors came without asking anyone including my Native American ancestors. Trump has weaponized citizenship into basically a protection racket for a price.

I never say anything to a Republican or conservative with the hope to endorse basic humanity.

Obama was the one who overturned fining employers who hire undocumented workers. I believe it was actually Reagan.

But thanks for the ammo!

I always thought this too but a lot of the time the people doing this in a community they know are the rich people sitting next to them in church or at a club that they wanna be like wish they could live like, so they do not turn on them and blame the illegal workers they hire instead. They will distort the whole picture or tear off a large corner of the puzzle
They do not disapprove of how the owners get the money or that they add to US unemployment or lower wages but they do admire their wealth and what it buys and those employers being part of a community are untouchable
Poor outsider people are a go to for disapproval anyway even more when not citizens and lured here by a job. Also some of the jobs they are showing recently that even when USunemployed they can not do the same amount because of physical requirements even at a higher wage
I assume much of the work is at an inhumane pace along with the low pay to bring that rich family some more bucks that those illegal immigrant hating folks admire
Plus that's if they don't rip them off completely and not payout. You would think if anything the concern would be for the misuse of workers and that it could triclkle to all worker's rights. But I suspect with their issues they never see past what the worker looks like or owns.
They will not turn on their fellows when there is an easy scapegoat for where ever their anger stems from . I don't think it's all job loss I think some is just growing whipped up racism or xenophobia although there was alway this block of citizens fixated on it but they will never agree to owners going to jail IMO
Hell the way it is going might even at some point decide the people hiring are victims of the illegal immigrants !
$$$
Keep talking at smoke breaks. If one ear opens it is a good thing they can talk to someone else

Now where is that worship emoji?

The Prosperity Gospel Defined.

.........

The flip on their attitude towards immigration coincides with the rise in automation of unskilled jobs.

They expect to be able to replace the 'peasantry' with robots and AI scripts.

But I'm not talking to politicians. I'm talking to blue collar workers. That argument is far from outdated with them.

do not use robots to pick their crops. I'm quite sure that goes for the ones in California and Florida too.

They have a plan, and the lower class doesn't have a place in it

Cutting the supply ahead of time even fits in a twisted way. Cause a labor crunch now, have right wing politicians put subsidies in place for equipment and fund research to mitigate the labor crunch, have taxpayer money repay the R&D costs and cover much of the expense of deploying automation... mega profit.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/08/wave-of-agriculture-robotics-holds-potential-to-ease-farm-labor-crunch.html

https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/07/world/automated-farm-harvest-england/index.html

I have conversations like this with people. Of those three blue collar guys, maybe one will change his vote this time around, maybe not.

But all of them will think, and once you know, there's no going back. They will start to spot hypocrisy, and maybe then either give up voting altogether in disgust, or perhaps become Democrats.

Oh, and one last thing - just thought I'd mention this. Polls I've seen show only 26-28% of millennials plan to vote. You know why? Most don't feel either Republicans or Dems will do anything for them. I've had many, many conversations with millennials - we all know their problems - high student loan debt, being priced out of housing markets, low paying jobs and other things have made it real hard for this whole generation to get on its feet.

Right now, the Republicans are SO BAD that the Dems look like peaches and cream, but when we get in power, we'd better do some stuff to take care of our children and grandchildren, you know? Like Warren has introduced the Responsible Capitalism Act, which simply expands the fiduciary responsibility of CEOs in publicly held companies beyond shareholder earnings to encompass worker and consumer welfare, and environmental impact. Stuff like that will solve so many problems.

But we're going to, within the next decade, have to re-think our whole social and economic organization. I mean, think about it - the real elephant in this room is the national debt. No one really is talking about it. A few tea party people tried a few years ago, but they were co-opted by the Kochs and most of them were kind of dumb anyway.

The bankers love it, though, because they've created a society of scarcity where more and more money is being routed into fewer and fewer hands at our expense, and they get to skim off the top of everything.

Unfortunately, that isn't sustainable. It's going to fall like a giant house of cards.

No bankers want us to go there, and there will be those on this site who disagree with me, but we are going to have to eventually repeal the Federal Reserve Act, and begin coining our own money, as it says in Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution. Like Lincoln did with the greenbacks during the Civil War.

We need to think differently - you pull a dollar out of your pocket and realize it is only a dollar because we all agree that is so. This is called fiat currency. Nothing backing it except the full faith and credit of the United States. So, if OUR faith and credit is backing these dollars, and if the national debt is money we owe to ourselves, then why are we paying it back with interest to bankers and foreign investors? We could get rid of that whole problem by coining our own money.

Of course, some say that Executive Order 11110, issued by JFK on June 3, 1963 is actually one of the things that got him killed. Whether or not that is true, the bankers will fight back hard. They will.

In fact, when I bring this up, some accuse me of wearing a tinfoil hat, and tell me that if we start coining our own money, we will have horrible inflation. That isn't really true, though. People who say that tend to have an interest in banking and in the banking system.

Public banking may be in large part, a solution for us. That, and Warren's 'Responsible Capitalism Act.'

There are a few industries that I think should be publicly owned. Banking is one. Medical insurance is another.

I would love to hear every democrat who has a microphone in front of them say this.

Good work!

Is that really what you want?

Anyone without a valid green card would become unemployable and either forced to return to their native country or become homeless and unable to feed their families.

Even if they had lived and worked in this country for many years and had established roots and established families here in the US? Millions of undocumented immigrants came here to work and establish a better life and we should take that all away from them ?

Is that what our politicians should be constantly advocating?

Cut their own cheap-labor loving throats? Of course they won't, and neither will we. But if it gets some people thinking, and seeing their sanctimonious hypocrisy and how they have exploited it for power, it might open their eyes. This divide-and-conquer the working classes has been going for since forever, in this country and elsewhere. It is time to put a stake in its heart.

It's worked so well for us.

Red America needs to hear that it's the corporations that benefit by pitting middle class America against desperate immigrants. I would offer current workers green cards with a path to citizenship & raise the minimum wage. Make the corporations serve the people, not the other way around. But that will never happen as long as the right dominates the narrative with their "illegal aliens" are stealing American jobs. We are up against 30+ years of right wing propaganda & the left still does nothing to counter hate radio & Fox.

But, thanks!

If they were serious about controlling undocumented immigration, they would institute a national identity card. Very few other countries don’t have one.

Republican illegal alien Christian Rivera killed Mollie Tibbets.

https://upload.democraticunderground.com/100211032272

Employed by prominent GOP family who conducted minimal verification so as not to find too much against him.

We won't reach all of them. But we can plant these doubts in their minds, get them to question what they've been told by the GOP, and we can flip enough of them to make a difference in some closely competitive districts.

nice.

I would go a step further and carry around some large cue-cards (or flash-cards, 'member them?)
with those talking points and more. The extra visual might help it sink in.

[link:|]

to fix the issue by going after the ones hiring people that are here illegally but they never have even tried to do that so its clear they really do not care about illegal immigrants other than as a political football.

believe Republicans want to fix the immigration situation. They want to use it like they do abortion, as an issue to run on and to keep running on for many years to come to rile up their base.

.,,, the reason economic migrants are here is because we pay them. If we stop paying them, they have no reason to come.

So many people are beginning to make that mistake.

A "tack" in this case would mean a change in direction or a new direction. It comes from sailing.

People have developed a misapprehension that "tact" is somehow short for "tactic" which it is not.

"Tact" is a word -- it means politeness, sensitivity and thoughtfulness. That's not what you meant. I may not be displaying much tact myself by calling you out on this, sorry!

How any working blue collar could vote repug

They always bitch about NAFTA. But not a one of em knows it was started under Bush. Not a one of em knows a majority of Republicans voted for it. And not a one of em knows a majority of Democrats voted against it. And when you tell em? Might as well be barking at the moon. Clinton signed it so it's the Dems fault.