Rape culture, airplanes, and unaccompanied minors

[gollygee]

I am concerned that, when considering why women might be uncomfortable with lone children sitting next to men, people immediately think "sexism" instead of "rape culture." One of the posters in the thread said something about this being part of rape culture, and no one seems to be getting that. Or maybe people are just dismissing it.

(I think the situation was handled very poorly by the airline. I question how much safer kids are with this rule, and I think if they do feel they need to make this rule, they need to handle it in a way where they aren't publicly calling out men.)

BUT the underlying issue is that women are taught to distrust men because we are potential rape victims. Women are taught this because a lot of women get raped, and we all know people who were raped. Men are also raped, but men are usually raped by other men, so we still end up being taught that men are potential rapists. We are further taught that if we don't demonstratively distrust men and don't treat them as potential rapists, and we DO get raped, we will be blamed for the rape. Given that, you can't be too surprised if women distrust men they don't know. Obviously, not all men are rapists, however we can't tell by looking at them who are and who aren't. If we assume we can trust a man and then get raped, we'll be told it isn't really rape, is just "gray rape" and not that big of a deal or we are partly to blame, we were asking for it, we were teasing, we consented at some earlier point, or something along those lines.

It can't be too surprising, given what we've been taught, that women would also distrust men they don't know around children.

I agree that it's a sad statement about society when women distrust men to this level, but I don't agree it's a case of women being sexist. Instead I see it as a case of women being raised in a rape culture.

I know not everyone will agree that a rape culture exists, but please read this before arguing that: http://www.shakesville.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html

[zazen]

1. great post! kicked and recommended n/t

[pnwmom]

2. Men are also much more likely to molest children.

And children are the least able to protect themselves.

http://www.sfweekly.com/2009-07-15/news/predators-are-free-to-move-about-the-cabin/

Although an airplane full of potential witnesses may seem an unlikely place for a child to be molested, criminal and civil lawyers who have handled these cases say that the controlled and confined yet anonymous environment is well suited for a child predator.

In going over the news stories, court documents, and FBI reports on the molestation cases, certain patterns begin to emerge. The predators were all adult males, although they did not fit any other stereotype. One was a computer consultant from India. Two were Hasidic Jews. Another was a world-renowned hairdresser from Savannah, Georgia.

In a majority of the instances, a man switched seats to be next to a child traveling alone. Also, a significant number of the reported molestations occurred on evening flights, when the victim and any potential witnesses were asleep. Several children reported that when the touching began, it seemed accidental or even well intentioned, and only later crossed the line.

In many of the stories, a representative from the airline explained that short of placing a flight attendant beside each traveling minor, there was nothing that could be done to prevent these incidents. America's Aviation Consumer Protection Division — a branch of the U.S. Department of Transportation — declined to comment on the issue of unaccompanied minors, although it does put out an information packet titled "When Kids Fly Alone." The first two lines read: "Many children fly alone. There are no Department of Transportation regulations concerning travel by these 'unaccompanied minors.'"

[seabeyond]

3. another point that i feel is relevant. we are in a society where men themselves promote that their

sexuality is all important and that is all that they are, repeatedly. the evo psych we have in colleges and being fed into our society at every turn. so many areas in society is this never ending men just cannot help it. hit puberty and free game. of course men want them young. and it goes on and on.

men themselves promote this as being who they are. we hear it repeatedly on du. we hear it endlessly in media. the internet.

and then they are treated as such and they are outraged. they no longer want to be the man they themselves promote endlessly.

i dont like the rule. for a number of reasons. and one of them is creating the very thing we are accusing of. just like, i dont want to promote that male when it is to their advantage.

i called it on the man kicked out of barnes and nobles. i would be pissed if i was a guy. but then, i would be pissed at a lot fo things society creates men as and i would have no part in it, but to call it out.

[orpupilofnature57]

4. No ones Fault ,but it is one of the many problems

Woman have ,and thats a remnant of the Sexist world created by Men , which has begun to be cured in the last couple seconds of civilization..

[malthaussen]

5. I would say that collective blame is a bad idea.

Rape culture or otherwise, we live in a fear culture in which all the innocent are considered to be guilty unless they prove otherwise. This fear is constantly exploited and increased by the media, our institutions, and our laws.

Keep us afraid and keep us divided.

-- Mal

[orpupilofnature57]

6. +1

[pnwmom]

41. It's not collective blame. It's collective caution.

And the trauma for the male asked to change one aisle seat for another seems pretty trivial compared to the trauma of a child molested when alone on an airplane.

[Nevernose]

45. Under that paradigm

We shouldn't let Muslims fly, right?

[SpartanDem]

47. I take it you're ok with NYPD's stop and frisk

A pat down by a cop is only a minor inconvenience the trauma is worth the community's safety, right? Of course, it isn't so why are you advocating for bigotry?

[pnwmom]

7. Statistically speaking, there is an average of at least one child molester on every full jetliner.

Probably more than one. And it's almost always a man. That doesn't mean he's doing his molesting on the plane. But he's there.

And airlines can't be blamed for trying to make things more difficult for potential molesters, particularly in light of the large civil awards they've had to pay. ($500,000 in at least one case.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia#Prevalence_and_child_molestation

The prevalence of pedophilia in the general population is not known, but is estimated to be lower than 5% based on several smaller studies with prevalence rates between 3% and 9%. "Most sexual offenders against children are male, although female offenders may account for 0.4% to 4% of convicted sexual offenders. On the basis of a range of published reports, McConaghy estimates a 10 to 1 ratio of male-to-female child molesters."

[gollygee]

8. I can understand why they feel they need to do it

Whether it actually helps keep kids from being molested or not, they have to show that they've done everything in their power if it ends up coming up in court. But I don't think they should call out men in the way in the story in the other thread. They need to try to handle it before boarding, and be more careful with how they word it if they can't. It just wasn't handled well.

[pnwmom]

10. It wasn't handled well. But it confirms what I've always thought.

It's not an accident that when I fly alone, I'm so often seated next to a talkative little girl who is flying alone.

[Fumesucker]

12. On the other hand a child is statistically much more likely to be molested by a family member..

Also bear in mind that some airlines now are charging parents extra to sit with their children..

So I'm not sure that the threat of lawsuits is what is driving this policy, if that were so then airlines would not be separating parents from their children without the parents having to pay extra money..

[gollygee]

13. It sounded like it was a specific lawsuit that led to this policy

not just the threat of lawsuits. They were sued and forced to pay $500k. (If I remember the original story right.)

[pnwmom]

37. That is an insane policy that benefits neither the parents nor the passengers

who are stuck sitting next to the children.

Somebody decided this was a good way to make a profit.

[Prometheus Bound]

24. Southwest Airline sued after woman hounded teen for sex

A FATHER in the US has filed a lawsuit against Southwest Airlines, claiming his 14-year-old son was "aggressively" pursued by an older woman who offered the boy sex and drugs during a flight.

The man, from Chicago, alleges his son was forced to sit next to the woman on the flight from Chicago to Orlando in 2008, the Sun-Times Media reports.

The boys is said to have repeatedly got up to avoid her but was told to sit down again by staff.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/travel/news/southwest-airline-sued-after-woman-hounded-teen-for-sex/story-e6frg8ro-1225891446715

Just for the record

[pnwmom]

38. It will be interesting to see the outcome of that. It doesn't take away from the fact, however,

that there have been far more cases involving men.

[DFab420]

9. wow....wait soooo because some men rape children..ALL men are potential rapists????

I'm not really sure what to say to that...

Not a very progressive point of view...and fairly sexist as well..

[pnwmom]

11. Potentially, yes. And we (human beings) are all potential thieves, and potential killers.

But, statistically speaking, men are far more likely to molest children than women are.

[Fumesucker]

14. And statistically speaking family members are far more likely to molest children than strangers..

I was molested as a child by a man I had been taught to call "uncle Ray", a "friend of the family"..

I never told anyone until I was over fifty years old..

[DFab420]

15. Therefore men must never be allowed to sit near a child? Would you like us to chemically castrate

ourselves before boarding a train? Or going to see a film?


I mean women have a propensity for drowning children ...Should we stop moms from giving baths or being near children in pools???

[pnwmom]

39. Nope. Just don't complain about the trivial inconvenience of changing one aisle seat

for another.

[DFab420]

44. haha of course.... how dare I complain about the trivial inconvenience of being treated like

a child molester.

Obviously I just need to change seats and then no one will think I like touching little boys...

You realize if you changed the word "man" in that statement with something like "black person" you would sound like an ignorant bigot right?

I mean the majority of prisoners in this country are black men...Does that mean we shouldn't allow black people to sit near...anyone else? You know....just in case..... ?

[Cali_Democrat]

16. I predict this thread will not end well

[DFab420]

17. Because it calls all men rapists? Or because it only implies we are all child-molestors?

[gollygee]

18. Something tells me you might not have read the whole original post

Sigh.

[Dokkie]

20. I think he read the whole post

[gollygee]

21. Oh, well I was confused

because it doesn't call all men rapists.

[Dokkie]

28. All men are potential rapist

they might as well be saying that all men are rapist. When in fact only a very small % of men actually commit rape crimes and even as smaller number in that small number involve minors.

[gollygee]

29. OK cut/paste here: "so we still end up being taught that men are potential rapists"

It isn't that all men are potential rapists. Most aren't. It is that we are taught to distrust men, and then are also taught if we don't show that we distrust them and then DO get raped that we will be blamed for the rape.

[Robb]

23. It does not do what you are saying.

"Most rapists are men" is not the same statement as "most men are rapists."

[Dokkie]

19. Just replace child with white

and Men with black and you see how stupid it is to make broad generalizations like that about large groups of people. Our 16yr old baby sitter tried to molest(tried to force us to her her oral sex) us when we were little but you don't see me going around labeling 16yr old girls as child molesters.

Rape culture is sexism just as much as profiling every black man as a potential armed robber or thief is racism. Heck, I dont even know which black man is going to steal from me and I am black. If you gonna live in a civilized society as ours, you gotta learn to be a little bit more trusting of your fellow human.

F*** rape culture

[KG]

22. because of this mindset, when I'm out walking my dog, I'm very reluctant to interact at all

with kids that want to meet and pet my doggie. it's a goddam shame.

[seabeyond]

25. " it's a goddam shame." yes. in so many ways. nt

[gollygee]

26. I agree it's a shame

I don't question that. I question whether it's fair to blame scared women, or whether we should blame the society that teaches women to be scared, and then on top of that teaches women if we aren't scared and don't demonstrate we are scared and DO get raped, the rape is our fault.

[LadyHawkAZ]

27. Correction:

We are taught to fear STRANGERS as potential rapists, because we are potential rape victims. Statistically, we are more likely to be raped by an acquaintance or family member, but we are taught to trust and be loyal to friends and family. Maybe what we should be wondering is why society wants us to not talk to men we're not related to?

People who choose to live their lives in terror of every "other" they encounter are of course free to do so. Just don't make policies out of it, or make believe it's OK.

[Odin2005]

35. Also, I think people WANT to be in denial about the problem of acquaintance rape...

...because coming to terms with the acquaintance rape problem would require that:

1. We guys are forced to remind ourselves that we are not entitled to sex.

2. That rape is not always just about power, but is also about the before mentioned sense of entitlement to sex men have.

[LadyHawkAZ]

36. Well said n/t

[Odin2005]

30. I wonder if this is why most elementary school teachers are still women...

...despite teaching being no longer considered "women's work". It would make sense that schools would be wary of hiring male teachers for elementary-age children, one touch perceived wrongly by a child raised to fear men not related to them = instant lawsuit.

[gollygee]

32. It could be in part

Though I think education is seen as a supplemental income these days.

[99Forever]

31. I find this thread to be very sexist AND demeaning.

Funny how it's NEVER about bigotry when it's directed at men, isn't it?

meh.

[unreadierLizard]

34. I hear that.

When it's a thread remotely about women, it's sexist and demeaning.

When something that is gender-discriminatory happens to men(which this is), women seem to come out in droves and say it's "acceptable" and "ensures safety"

As I said; since female teachers molest male students, should we ban women from teaching? Or driving with children, since a few women have murdered their children by drowning them in cars?

It's for the children's safety, after all.

[Fozzledick]

33. Androphobia: The only respectable bigotry

Did you know that over 98 per cent of the men in the United States today have never been convicted of any violent crime or served time in prison? That, even though the U.S. imprisons a higher percentage of its citizens than any other nation, over 98 per cent of our men have never been convicted of rape, child molestation, assault, battery, breaking and entering, or any kind of violence? And almost half of the men who do land in prison are convicted of non-violent crimes (usually drug possession)?

These basic statistical facts about male nonviolence have been hidden from us by an ideology/mythology which I call androphobia -- fear and hatred of the male.
...

The Feminism of Imbeciles

Let us clarify the ideology of androphobia. I think androphobia can be defined as the transfer to all males of the negative stereotypes that the Ku Klux Klan and other neanderthal types assign only to black males -- mental inferiority, of course; emotional childishness, or "inability to think rationally;" brutality -- i.e. sub-human status, criminality, sexual violence, etc. (You see? All the old racist clichés except "a great sense of rhythm.&quot I thus regard androphobia as merely a transmutation from racism to sexism, an "advance" that is not an advance at all.

Let me make this very clear. I do not oppose Feminism; on the contrary, I reject all forms of group stereotyping and dehumanization. Androphobia (or male-bashing) has no intrinsic or necessary link with Feminism, and many Feminists utterly reject androphobia. To use an analogy, Marx said that "anti-Semitism is the socialism of fools." Similarly, I regard androphobia as the Feminism of imbeciles.

http://www.backlash.com/content/gender/1996/4-apr96/wilson04.html

Please don't complain that I found this on a pro-Ron Paul site. Robert Anton Wilson speaks for himself and this is obviously a Discordian/Illuminati plant.

[Dokkie]

40. +1000

98% of men have never convicted any crime? I think that is even high even if it was the stats for female. Too bad the link you posted did not site the source of the 98% number even thought I think it is a small number.

But all in all, very good find. This kind of nonsense will never be tolerated if it was used against any other group of people but men. Just imagine all Middle eastern men are potential terrorist, all latinos are potential illegals, all blacks are potential criminals or gang members etc etc etc.

[msongs]

42. why do mothers abandon their kids on commercial jets in the first place? nt

[Mister Ed]

43. Or let them go out of doors?

I dunno. If it should end up happening that a child is molested on an airliner, I would be very reluctant to blame the child's mother. Seems sorta like blaming the victim.

I can't possibly count the number of flights I took alone as a juvenile. Dozens and dozens of them, for sure. I could've been the inspiration for George Clooney's frequent-flier character in "Up in the Air".

I started flying without my parents when I was six. Of course, I wasn't entirely on my own at such a tender age. I had my big sister along to watch out for me. She was eight, so I felt quite safe!

Everywhere I went during all those years, the airline personnel and all the other the passengers sure were nice to me.

The only one of my siblings to ever be molested was my sister, years earlier. She was molested in our home, when quite young, by a grown woman who was hired to babysit us. I'd be reluctant to blame Mom, though, or post a question like, "Why do mothers abandon their kids to babysitters?"

I guess if there's a point to this meandering reply, it's that there aren't really any good, pat answers to all of this.

[Prometheus Bound]

46. Not enough money, not enough time

I guess there are other reasons as well, depending on the circumstances.

'Abandon' may not be the right word to use.