General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsImpeachment without a chance to win it is a fool's errand and BAD idea, period.
Tons of hearings, tons of money spent, tons of time wasted, all eyes off the ball over the issues we really need to focus on like HEALTHCARE, JOBS, etc., and Trump wins in the end in the GOP Senate would be a GALACTIC BLUNDER.
If there was VERY strong evidence of criminal wrongdoing while in office that is one thing. Absent that, impeachment is a fool's errand that would backfire on us bigtime, and a deaf, dumb, and blind person can see it.
Let the nutcase be the nutcase that he is. The crazier he is, the more suburban swing voters vote with us and HATE Trump. Give the idiot enough rope and he hangs himself.
Look what happened in WI. They tried to recall Walker. They lost and then lost again. It only helped Walker.
Look at Clinton. It made the GOP look bad, and people were feeling sorry for Clinton. You never, ever go into a prosecution that you can't win.
You don't pick fights you can't win because you always LOSE in more ways than one. Dumb idea.
The people want us focusing on THEIR agenda: Healthcare, jobs, education, etc. Win the narrative there. Force the issue there. That's how we bring down Donny Rotten and his Senate in 2020.
ck4829
(34,977 posts)Take away his bully pulpit, take away ceremonial powers.
rzemanfl
(29,540 posts)I can rest easy now.
LBM20
(1,580 posts)to feel better go ahead, but it is a DUMB idea to pursue impeachment absent an extremely strong case and without Republican support. We have the House. We have oversight and checks and balances, can shape a clear agenda to force and to run on, and can beat Trump and the R's in 2020. STUPID to waste time on impeachment that can't be won.
rzemanfl
(29,540 posts)Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)I think Trump is a horrible, corrupt, narcissist with delusions of grandeur.
His sycophants think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
The only thing impeachment without successful conviction would do is to allow him and his mouthpieces to play the victim when they get acquitted.
On the other hand, if there is something uncovered serious enough that people can't ignore and the Senate can't reasonably excuse, then sure, have at it.
rzemanfl
(29,540 posts)our Solar System. You managed to.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)manor321
(3,344 posts)And how the HELL do you say this without knowing what is in the Mueller report? That's what I find so disgusting about this. If impeachable crimes were committed, and we don't even fucking pursue impeachment, this greatly reduces the power of impeachment in the future. Might as well declare a king and be done with it!
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)But if they don't, then impeachment is dead anyway.
Demsrule86
(68,352 posts)impeach. The Senate clears him...and he wins. He would likely win re-election.
LBM20
(1,580 posts)do this.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Oversight is good, it gets the information out there. But if there are not enough Senators to convict, then there is no point. In Watergate, they knew there were enough Republicans who would not back Nixon, that's why he was told to resign.
unblock
(51,974 posts)generally speaking, any bill we pass in the house also has zero chance of becoming law, so your logic to do one thing with zero chance of winning because the other thing has zero chance of winning really makes no sense.
i don't really disagree with your conclusion, i think setting ourselves up for strong issues on which to run for positive, constructive change in 2020 is likely far more effective politically than impeaching donnie -- frankly, even if we somehow were to win.
but your logic doesn't work.
other than some "must-pass" legislation like budget-related bills, we're not actually getting any legislative victories, either.
Demsrule86
(68,352 posts)peril. Impeachment is different. Apples and oranges.
unblock
(51,974 posts)the media would declare our bill doa before it even leaves the house committee.
mcturtle probably wouldn't even schedule a vote in the senate, and it would become a non-story.
we can bring it up during the 2020 campaign, but republicans will just lie and the media will do their "he said/she said but let's hear more about that really interesting thing the republicans said" thing.
Demsrule86
(68,352 posts)Demsrule86
(68,352 posts)There are things we can do to improve our chances in 2020. I get it. I hate Trump and would love to see him humiliated by impeaching him. However, unless there is a chance of conviction. It is a waste of time. It could imperil our chances in 20 and actually help Trump get another term.
eissa
(4,238 posts)It would make us look petty, and garner sympathy for trump, ala Clinton in the 90s. It would backfire on us spectacularly. Trump would be a martyr at the hands of angry, sore losers.
Does trump deserve to be POTUS? No. But I'd rather his presidency and party be completely smeared by all their corruption, which will stain enough of their candidates in two years for us to retake both the Senate and the WH.
Patience.
maxsolomon
(32,992 posts)Based on what? His overwhelming approval ratings that haven't cracked 50% once in a booming economy?
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)You already see the insinuation that not supporting impeachment means supporting trump.
Then when it failed the circular firing squad would kick into high gear. If Pelosi.... Schumer gave up..., We need stronger leadership...
I can hear it now. How? Heard it all from the republicans when they failed to convict Clinton.
It would go along way to re-electing Trump.
maxsolomon
(32,992 posts)Follow the process. If it leads to Impeachment, so be it.
Dem politics are always going to be herding cats, and the Right is already energized. That energized Right just lost to our superior numbers.
You might as well get on board the Impeachment Train, because it's leaving the station.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)And I do agree with your statement about following the process. If enough comes out that gets republicans wobbly, and it looks like we have a chance of actual conviction then we have to try.
But to go in this spring and do it immediately would be political suicide.
Start passing bill after bill the American People support and let the republicans kill them. That sets us up the senate and the White House in 2020.
Let impeachment take care of itself.
maxsolomon
(32,992 posts)The day after they're sworn in is immediately.
I have faith that Pelosi is tactician enough not to engage in political suicide.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)And they don't give a shit about the rule of law. They care about power and money and keeping ordinary people down. So we would waste 2 years getting exactly nothing done.
When you govern and you want to keep on governing, you have to deliver the goods. Failing to remove the president along a straight party-line vote will look like failure.
Impeachment without help for success is a piss poor substitute for therapy. Nothing wrong with therapy, but it doesn't belong in the halls of Congress
Vinnie From Indy
(10,820 posts)Hold my beer!
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)It made Nixon resign. It could do the same here.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)It ain't gonna play out that way with him unless the overwhelming majority of his followers start running away from him.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)Republicans in Congress supported impeachment
Republicans in Congress today support fascism. That's why impeaching won't work.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,789 posts)berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)And he was impeached.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,789 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Republicans turning on him caused his resignation. The last Howard Baker left that party a decade ago.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)Dont tell me impeachment is a lost cause.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,789 posts)Bucky
(53,795 posts)What sank Nixon was the fact that there was bipartisanship among Republicans in Congress. Their grandchildren in Congress now do not have the same love of country and law
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,789 posts)GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)But I think they would have.
But you are missing my point. The republicans visited him and told him the senate would vote to convict. That is what caused his resignation.
Can you see McTurtle doing the same? We both know the senate will never convict. I think Impeachment with no conviction kills us politically. Honorable people can disagree on this issue.
berni_mccoy
(23,018 posts)No.
MarvinGardens
(779 posts)But it is worth noting that the Chief Justice of SCOTUS would preside over an impeachment trial.
dem4decades
(11,244 posts)Otherwise why are we here?
Demsrule86
(68,352 posts)maxsolomon
(32,992 posts)and it will die a painful death in the GOP Senate or on Trump's desk.
fuck Trump. brand his ass, if only for History's sake.
dhol82
(9,351 posts)Who is as bad, if not worse, than the orange slimeball.
What would all of it accomplish?
maxsolomon
(32,992 posts)and the rule of law. the rest of the planet would applaud our efforts. the future would applaud our efforts, even if we fail.
I'll take a year of a crippled Pence, who has the charisma of a set of Mormon Temple Garments, over a narcissistic sociopath in the 2020 race.
any day.
dem4decades
(11,244 posts)Bucky
(53,795 posts)Per fucking Cent
Iowa420
(19 posts)It doesn't matter whether not on the weak in our party don't want to follow thru with an impeachment proceeding for various reasons but there are those of us who are not afraid anymore. We what to be seen as the party of strength and not one of weakness that people like Pelosi are giving up..
Stand up and be someone who isn't afraid of the GOP.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)See how easy it is to throw insults around?Impeachment would unify the right, and as your post proves wreck any unity in the left.
To clarify, I dont really think those favoring impeachment are fools. I do think democrats who call their fellow democrats who disagree on the issue fools are indeed fools.
George II
(67,782 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,576 posts)You see, the evidence may be so overwhelming for a senate investigation that the Senate can't turn its back on following through. You are making it far too easy for them to do nothing.
Squinch
(50,774 posts)Bucky
(53,795 posts)putting country ahead of party. These guys are protecting Trump because big corporations will reward them when they leave Congress.
I know, maybe Susan Collins will give it serious consideration before casting her vote
Anyone thinking that you're going to get 25 to 30 Republican Senators to vote to remove Trump hasn't been paying attention for the last 30 years
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)Vinca
(50,170 posts)populistdriven
(5,639 posts)1. building a case for indictment and
2. building a case that Trump can be indicted. Period.
Any other efforts for anything else will aid Trump's defense because The senate the white house will politicize it and and the Trumpeters will use it for gas lighting.
Any House impeachment push has no endgame and is a self indulgent flashing of progressive bonafides. It would be nothing more than selfish positioning to protect against political infighting in a primary.
Mueller should hear loud and clear that:
1. the people and legal community are in favor of his power to indict and
2. that he should either indict, continue the investigation or end it.
Vinca
(50,170 posts)If his crimes are as dire as we believe, the GOP Senators may well see the writing on the wall in the same way they did with Nixon. They'll either tell him to resign or vote for impeachment. He can be arrested on his way out the door.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)Impeachment is an indictment, only about 20 times harder to do. And with no hope for success.
Sorry, but we have to defeat Trump democratically. We have to do it with votes. There's no shortcut, there's no cavalry to come and rescue us at the last minute. We have to do it by the ballot.
Vinca
(50,170 posts)maxsolomon
(32,992 posts)Ok, let's look at Clinton. America by and large accepted that he had lied under oath, but never felt that warranted removal from office.
If a Senate trial creates sympathy for a garbage human like Trump and leads to his re-election, then he was probably going to be re-elected anyway.
Of course it will be perceived as political. It is political. It's also upholding the Constitution, which the GOP House crowed about incessantly as they impeached Clinton. The GOP knew they didn't have a chance in hell of convicting him, either. They did it anyway - to handicap Gore as much as anything. It was nakedly political.
You do realize the future of the Republic hinges on stopping him from installing an Autocracy, right?
Bucky
(53,795 posts)Assuming there are 48 Democratic senators, including Joe Manchin, who all vote to remove Trump once he's impeached, you still need 19 Republicans to put country ahead of party.
Can you name me 19 Republican Senators who would actually do that?
Zing Zing Zingbah
(6,496 posts)Donald Trump sucks, but more than anything people want the Democrats to deliver on the issues they voted them in for. The focus should be on improving the lives of Americans.
kentuck
(110,950 posts)We should not assume that impeachment will always be a negative. Republicans that refuse to impeach after all the evidence is out, may be in danger of being thrown out themselves.
Trump's case is entirely different than Clinton's. It's our duty to impeach him.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Amen to that.
Midnightwalk
(3,131 posts)Public hearings on the corruption, the collusion, violations of the constitution (emoluments) should happen and damn the expense. We need to uphold the law publicly.
Without clear evidence we should not go to impeachment. What to do if the evidence is clear but in chance of winning the senate? Harder for me to say what I think is right until I think more and see what the evidence is.
Don't take me wrong, I think trump is guilty as hell, but we need more than belief. Investigate publicly and thoroughly before committing to impeachment. That's how investigations are supposed to be done.
I agree we have to do more and can't just be about investigating. Others point out we can't get anything through the senate or signed by the president, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. We have to build the story of what we passed and what the republicans refused to. We have to pass things to do that. It also blunts the narrative that all we could do is investigate.
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)Posts like this simply don't get it.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)To not impeach him when we have the power to do so, and when everyone knows he deserves to be impeached, conviction or not, is like a self admission of having zero fucking spine.
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)We would have the senate now if that were the case.
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)Bucky
(53,795 posts)And yet you expect Republicans to come over to our side to impeach and remove the president?
How can you expect the country to unify behind our drive to impeach and remove the president when you can't even get through a conversation without insulting the character of fellow Democrats that you have a small disagreement with?
mtnsnake
(22,236 posts)I never said anywhere on this forum that I expect republicans to come over to our side. FYI, republicans don't need to come over to "our" side to impeach Trump. Impeachment only takes a majority of the House, and we have the majority, right? The only thing we can't do on our own is get Trump convicted and removed.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)Impeachment means nothing if we don't remove Trump from office. It just becomes a joke to him, a chance to raise more funds from his suckers and enable errs on the right. And then he is still president, and we just look like sore losers.
And then his chances of reelection in 2020 or vastly improve. Don't forget that in 1998 the Democrats gained seats in Congress in the wake of a botched impeachment and removal try against Bill Clinton.
The public turned against the side that was wasting everybody's time. If you don't learn that, you haven't been studying history right
Bradshaw3
(7,455 posts)The Democrats will have no choice but to impeach. It may or may not be a good idea politically and it may well fail but I don't see how you can walk away if Mueller finds collusion, election law violations, money laundering, perjury, etc.
pwb
(11,205 posts)And you all know it. Just for the show if nothing else.
albacore
(2,387 posts)They have to do their duty, and let the chips fall where they may. It's that old "checks and balances" thing.
Hell, who knows, trump might NOT be guilty of a few things, but we'll never know if the House committees don't do a colonoscopy on every facet of trump's political and financial picture.
Win or lose... lay it out for the American people and see what happens.
I do have one fear about the whole thing. If trump is as dirty as I believe he is... in so many areas... this could shake the whole foundation of government in this country. How can people trust a system that put a creature like him in power? How can anybody trust anything any politician says after trump has so poisoned the dialog?
Gothmog
(144,005 posts)The GOP announced that they would impeach Bill Clinton before the 1998 midterms and then lost seats. This is a stunt that will likely backfire unless we find 19 + GOP senators
Fiendish Thingy
(15,369 posts)Your hand wringing at presumed catastrophic consequences without evidence is duly noted for the flawed opinions that they are.
I, for one, do not want the Dems 2020 slogan to be keeping our powder dry since November 2000.
I have a feeling that many in the incoming Congressional class of 2019 might agree with me
Bucky
(53,795 posts)There's a bunch of people in Du alone who are actively and persuasively disputing your assertion.
Now try to get moderate or even slightly less liberal Democrats to go along with it. Now try to get moderates and independents go along with that.. Now try to get 19 or 20 Republican Senators to go along with removing president Trump, who they fear and depend upon for reelection.
If we're going to get rid of trump, we have to do it democratically by votes. We can't appeal for higher-ups in Congress to come down deus ex machina style and rescue us from the mess that they made.
Fiendish Thingy
(15,369 posts)While many on DU disagree with impeachment for politically strategic reasons, they have not refuted the Constitutional need for impeachment (perhaps I should have said "irrefutable" rather than "indisputable", but that's splitting hairs IMO).
If Congress abandons its role as a check and balance on a would-be dictatorial executive branch, then America is truly broken and doomed to a future of despotic demagogues.
Articles of Impeachment could be drafted, one by one, without proceeding to hearing in the full House, each article would dominate the news cycle and keep Trump on the defensive until the 2020 elections. If each article was supported by evidence from the Mueller investigation, even better.
Chipping away at Trump, article by article, could push him to do something dramatic, like start a war with Iran; while risky, it could creat an un-ignore-able Constitutional crisis (unlike the other crises the GOP is happy to ignore and enable), creating pressure upon the GOP senate to act.
IMO, there is nothing "too risky" about saving and upholding the Constitution.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)pansypoo53219
(20,907 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)The GOP controls the Senate. And that ends any debate about impeaching Trump.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)that we likely don't even have the votes to impeach in the House.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)Get with the times, man.
elocs
(22,474 posts)having sex and knowing ahead of time there will be a zero chance of orgasm.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)Which I will need after Trump laughs off an impeachment and uses it to springboard to his reelection
Jersey Devil
(9,863 posts)If there is a serious "high crime" like, let's say, collusion by payment to the Russians for Hillary's email or promises of dropping sanctions or changes in our policy on the Ukraine, etc., and strong proof of it, then members of the House may not have any choice but to impeach to carry out their oaths of office and duty as members of congress, regardless of what the Senate may or may not do.
elocs
(22,474 posts)With the recall of Walker here in Wisconsin we got bit in the ass by the Law of Unintended Consequences.
State law said he could not face a recall election until after he had served for a year in office and so the recall election did not occur for nearly a year and a half after the took office. With millions of Koch brothers' money, Walker and the Republicans took advantage of that time to build a powerful and well organized political machine in the state that would assure Walker's victory in the recall election and in the one after that.
But impeaching Trump would be a self-indulgent waste of time that would unnecessarily fire up Republicans and ultimately lose the House for Democrats. So the Law of Unintended Consequences will raise its ugly head again.
Thekaspervote
(32,606 posts)Rizen
(703 posts)Misusing his position in the white house to further his businesses, obstruction of justice, conspiracy against the united states... the case for impeaching Trump is as long as my arm. You can't compare this situation to Clinton's. We'll look weak for not impeaching him. Wait until Mueller's findings are revealed of course and if Republican cultists still defend the traitor they'll look bad.
Politicub
(12,163 posts)so I'm not going to make a fuss about it. If the house impeaches, fine. If they don't, that's okay, too.
I want the dems to position the party to win big in 2020. I'm not a political scientist, so I want the experts to do what it takes to get the best outcome for the body politic.
Impeaching Trump will go nowhere in the senate. It would end up being a stain on his presidency from an historical perspective. But in the short term, it will be a rallying point for the right.
JCMach1
(27,544 posts)Generic Brad
(14,270 posts)I want him gone probably more than most of you. However, we get ONE chance. If it is a political swing and a miss it is all for naught and we lose. No do-overs.
He has to be so overwhelmingly politically crippled and obviously guilty of heinous crimes that Republicans have no choice but to openly admit he is toxic and turn on him. His approval rating needs to tank to around 25%. Until Republicans come to their senses, we are stuck with him.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)And I would say persistence, not patience. But otherwise we're in agreement.
We had an okay 2018 election. Not great, but good enough to maintain hope. It's going to come down to 2020, not impeachment.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)And win the Senate back at the same time
MarvinGardens
(779 posts)if there are credible accusations of high crimes, he should be impeached.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)When all the facts are presented right in front of them? What are they going to do, reject objective evidence in favor of superstition? Only listen to one slanted biased side of the argument, maybe even go out and found their own news network that hides the truth from their ears, and ignore the science proving Trump's guilt?
Martin Eden
(12,803 posts)And in the long run that failure will be more damaging to our republic and to the American people. We will get more high crimes when politicians are confident there will be no consequences -- and impeachment is a consequence even if the Senate refuses to remove this POtuS from office. Some of his crimes may be prosecutable when he's out of office.
I think it's a mistake to base everything on short tern political calculation because, ultimately, it lacks a moral center and is not what public service should be about.
But it has to be done correctly. Before pursuing impeachment, let's see all the evidence of the Mueller investigation. Compel release of Trump's tax returns only if relevant to crimes therein.
If what has been exposed to the light of day makes a strong and compelling case of high crimes and misdemeanors, then it is the duty of the House to bring impeachment even if the GOP Senate puts their misguided allegiance to this criminal above the law and the good of our people.
Done correctly, that will be obvious to reasonable people. Those without reason are beyond reach anyway.
Also, I believe we can pursue justice AND good domestic policy at the same time. However, enacting good legislation into law has no chance with the R's controlling the Senate and White House.
But the Democratic House WILL have the power of oversight and investigative commitees.
IMO it would be a mistake not to use that power as intended in the spirit of public service -- which also is good for the short and long term electoral prospects and legislative agenda of the Democratic Party.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)JonLP24
(29,322 posts)kentuck
(110,950 posts)That the evidence against Trump may be so damning and poisonous that it could hurt Republicans if they tried to defend it??
Bucky
(53,795 posts)... when their Arkansas project tried to topple Bill Clinton, the GOP discovered that impeachment without hope of removal is a piss poor substitute for therapy.
If you want to vent against the president, get out in the streets and vent. I'll support any protest against this orange smegma head. But as long as the Republican party is protecting this criminal traitor, that we don't have politics in our country, we have a naked power struggle, where the rule of law is essentially meaningless.
The only way to win against these neomonarchists is to win, not at their game, which is the destruction of our constitution, but at our game, democracy. It's a long game, not one rewarding instant gratification or miracle cures from higher authorities like Congress.
We have to win this from the street level up. We have to win this one vote at a time. We have to affirm democracy with democracy, and not hope that Congress and the Washington power establishment will come in from above deus ex machina and rescue us
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Trump was personally found to be involved in an illegal in kind contribution that was just yesterday alone.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)But some time around November 2016 it occurred to me we don't live in an ideal world.
People calling for Trump's immediate impeachment and removal, confident that 20 Republican Senators will go along with it once they read Mueller's report, remind me of Miguel Hidalgo
When he started the Mexican war of independence, father Hidalgo was convinced that the righteousness of his cause would carry the day. And so he proceeded to go directly after his enemies with direct attacks, getting thousands of his followers slaughtered and himself arrested, tried by the Spanish Inquisition, and then executed.
Eventually, tactically savvy conservatives slowly took over the war for independence and established a monarchy and dictatorship in the wake of the chaos. Mexico had to wait another hundred years before it got a real Revolution
All because Miguel Hidalgo thought the righteousness of his cause meant he didn't have to use smart tactics to win. Or possibly, a lifetime reading Rousseau, Locke, and Montesquieu didn't leave him prepared for how to go about fighting a war.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)When they run for reelection.
Bucky
(53,795 posts)People vote for the Democratic Party when we effectively sell strong ideas for governance that will improve their lives. When we run simplistic Us versus Them candidacies we don't do so good. Identity politics always cuts against the side that supports diversity.
If you look at the last few elections, you'll see that's the pattern that he merges. Identity politics always helps conservatives. It is the most anti-liberal form of governance. It's never going to work for us
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)What are you talking about? Conservatives are the ones talking about immigrants, Islam, white nationalism.
Trump is an unindicted co-conspirator. If they want to back him on corruption use that against them. If the Democratic party nominee had Russian spies in their campaign you know the Republicans would never let us off the hook. They still call us traitors and run as the patriotic party.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Voltaire2
(12,627 posts)cant obstruct.
Voltaire2
(12,627 posts)If there was VERY strong evidence of criminal wrongdoing while in office that is one thing.
ElementaryPenguin
(7,800 posts)It will take Impeachment and/or Indictment of this out-of-control, fascist traitor to save our nation!!