Did Russia, or the then Soviet Union, even particiapte in WWI?

[question everything]

Last edited Mon Nov 12, 2018, 07:20 PM - Edit history (1)

I thought it was busy with its own revolutions?

[NRaleighLiberal]

1. huge participation and sacrifice

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I

look at the charts on the right as you scroll down

12 million troops
1.8 million killed

[question everything]

5. Thanks. Will have to read it closely

[exboyfil]

2. They were France's ally

They entered the war when France came in. Then the Germans sent Lenin to Germany in a sealed train. The czar then fell, the USSR was eventually established, and they exited the war. After the war we actually fought with the anti-revolutionary White Russians and got our butts kicked.

[essme]

6. Thank gawd someone remembers that white Russian BS that we pulled.

Tried to take out the Soviet Revolution and lost. Hardly anyone recalls that anymore.

[Xolodno]

12. Alexander the 2nd, if he was not assassinated...

....would have probably brought out the necessary reforms that would would probably brought Russia to a representative government. Perhaps even preserving the Emperor and his line, albeit, something similar to the other remaining royal families in Europe.

Alexander the 3rd reversed his reforms and Nicholas the 2nd doubled down on repression.

The Bolsheviks may had altruistic ideals in the beginning, but the bastards in charge insured another despotic regime unlike the Tsar.

[Small-Axe]

19. Do they remember that Stalin then when on to murder 30 million or more?

Good grief.

[grantcart]

28. Two Points

1) The idea that we have some key involvement in every movement in the world is a particularly American centric perspective that is rarely the case.

There were two revolutions in 1917

The first revolution in February dispatched the Romanovs and was a broad based revolution that included all of the anti Tsar parties from Social Democrats to Socialists to Communists. A provisional government was established that included everyone but Lenin who was still in exile in Switzerland.

The Communists were a very small part of the revolutionary movement and the Mensheviks (actually translated means "minority group&quot vastly outnumbered the Bolsheviks (actually translated as "the majority group&quot .

Lenin wasn't even the leader of the Bolsheviks.

There was no serious American presence in Petrograd at the time as all our assets were involved in WWI. The only American to even be there was John Reed.

Lenin took over the Bolsheviks and they took radicalized elements of the military and staged an occupation of the telephone, newspapers and offices of the Provisional government, there were only about 1000 volunteers supporting the Provisional government and only a few injuries occurred.

The point is that the October Revolution wasn't a broad based country wide event, even a majority of Communists didn't support it. The Bolsheviks packed the room and the Mensheviks walked out

The Second Congress of Soviets consisted of 670 elected delegates; 300 were Bolshevik and nearly a hundred were Left Socialist-Revolutionaries, who also supported the overthrow of the Alexander Kerensky Government.[34] When the fall of the Winter Palace was announced, the Congress adopted a decree transferring power to the Soviets of Workers', Soldiers' and Peasants' Deputies, thus ratifying the Revolution.

The transfer of power was not without disagreement. The center and Right wings of the Socialist Revolutionaries as well as the Mensheviks believed that Lenin and the Bolsheviks had illegally seized power and they walked out before the resolution was passed

Opposition to 300 people taking over the entire country was an organic movement that had a broad base but never was equipped to fight the Soviet Army.

The Allies main motive was not against the revolution per se but the Bolsheviks switching sides in the war and becoming allies with Germany. The US wasn't involved as a bilateral action but part of the Allies and was limited to a small operation in Archangel and Murmansk, mostly to keep the supply lines open. There were more Brits, Greeks and Japanese involved with the Whites than the US. In any case after the war the US ceased its involvement and after 1920 wasn't involved with the civil war which went on for years after wards.

2) In the 80's I worked with the organization that is now named IOM. I noticed that there were monthly statistics of about 1 to 2 dozen refugees being transferred by government to government agreement (meaning that the Communist Chinese government authorized their movement legally out of the country). The more I thought about it the more curious I got. Who could these refugees be?

They were elderly White Russians who had escaped as children with their families into China fleeing the Red Army. They were now in their 70s and 80s and were being moved out of the country.

Can you imagine the stories these people would have of being ethnic Russians whose families might have been deeply religious Russian Orthodox and fled to pre Revolutionary China and established some business there only to see the Chinese Revolution come in 1949 and then witness the 10 years of the cultural revolution in the 70s. There must be some amazing stories, now lost in time.

[Separation]

33. I love hearing this type of talk

[hatrack]

39. As someone once said: "The Bolsheviks didn't seize power - they picked it up."

.

[Hekate]

43. This is fascinating stuff. Thank you, grantcart. nt

[Silver1]

44. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

It was such a complex and volatile time, which you show so effectively. Not nearly as simple as many think.

Very interesting about the descendants of the White Russians in China. I had never heard of it.

[muriel_volestrangler]

38. No, Russia was first in, because it was Serbia's ally

A Serbian (possibly controlled by Serbian secret police - never determined) assassinated the Austrian archduke; Austria invaded Serbia; Russia mobilizes against Austria; Germany declares war on Russia; France mobilizes because they are Russia's ally; Germany declares war on France and invades Belgium to outflank the French defences, so Britain declares war on Germany.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/austria-hungary-declares-war-on-serbia

[exboyfil]

40. You are right

I got the order wrong.

[Silver1]

45. Europe was a powder keg ...

The general consensus in Serbia is that Gavrilo Princip was part of a very small fringe group when he assassinated Archduke Ferdinand.

Tensions in Europe had been extremely high for years, and many historians believe the assassination was used as a pretext by Austro-Hungary to invade Serbia, which they had wanted to do for some time. The reason was to further increase the size of its influence and empire. Other European nations seized the moment as they had similar ambitions. Europe was a powder keg, and the assassination lit the fuse.

[question everything]

49. Wow, what a chain of events. Thank you!

No wonder it was hoped that it would be the "War to end all wars." How ironic, and sad, and even frightening.

[former9thward]

52. No we didn't get "our butts kicked".

Wilson specifically gave orders not to participate in the fighting. Out troops were sent to guard supplies and other similar duties in the rear. The British who were the main forces fighting tried to involve American troops but did not have much success. Americans lost a few hundred men -- a majority from disease and freezing.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

3. Yes, very much, and the effect of the war was devastating.

It wasn't the Soviet Union then; Russia was ruled by Czar Nicholas II until the 1917 revolution (Nicolas was executed by the Bolsheviks in 1918), and the Soviet Union wasn't formed until 1922. Russia lost more than a millions soldiers in WWI.

[Stuart G]

9. One of the reasons for the Russian Communist revolution (1917) was the

incredible loss of life in WWI. If the Russians had not entered the war, and the loss of life that the war produced for Russian soldiers, then there might not have ever been a Communist Revolution in Russia. Marks predicted that the revolution would take place in Great Britain and Germany because of the abuses of capitalism, not some Russian Czar. Lenin used the literature to justify a turnover in the government. (at least that is what I read, and my opinion for what it is worth)

[Bucky]

13. That's the traditional analysis, that WW1 hastened the two 1917 revolutions

But the reading I've been doing lately on Russia before the World War validates the theory that, if anything, WW1 delayed the inevitable revolt.

[LeftInTX]

30. I'm falling asleep. I might not make sense.

My family is Armenian from Turkey. The Russians came into the interior of Turkey in the late 1800s. (My great grandfather called the bands of men on horses: Hasso) There was something brewing. They were influencing Armenians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_(given_name)

[TheBlackAdder]

17. The Battle of Tsushima, where Japan sunk most of the Tsar's fleet, weakened him, empowered Japan.

.

With most of the Russian Navy, sitting on the floor of the Sea of Japan, the Tsar faced much resentment at home. This actually seemed to be the major downfall of leadership, and helped to spearhead the eventual overthrow of power.

This naval battle, which showed superior Japanese battle tactics and firepower, emboldened the Japanese and placed them on the course to starting World War II's Pacific Theater campaign.

.

[dalton99a]

4. They fought the German Empire on the Eastern Front

[question everything]

7. Interesting. Thus they Participate in tearing the old empires to establish their satellites

They did have interest in the Ottoman Empire to control the roads to India.

[Xolodno]

14. That was one reason....but there was another idealistic reason...

....The Church and State were one, the Russian Orthodox Church wanted nothing more than to take Istanbul and name it back to Constantinople and restore Orthodoxy to Hagia Sophia.

[LeftInTX]

29. Russia and Turkey have always been foes

Russia wanted the Mediterranean and Turkey was in the way.

The Turks were the Axis power that aligned with Germany.

The British fought the Turks too. The British brought in troops from India that came through Iran.
The British also came through Palestine. (Lawrence of Arabia) They conquered the Turks via the southern route.

In a nutshell: It was the Mediterranean and it still is. Look what happened in Crimea. Russia is locked by Arctic waters. So, they want the Mediterranean. Not much interest in India back in WWI.

[tirebiter]

8. How Germany got the Russian Revolution off the ground

https://www.dw.com/en/how-germany-got-the-russian-revolution-off-the-ground/a-41195312

The Russian Revolution has gone down in history as the victory of the workers and peasants over the czarist rulers. Few people realize the German kaiser was also involved: He gave aid to the Bolsheviks in 1917.

Made tactical sense at the time. Wilson kept American troops in Europe until 1921 in an effort to keep the revolution contained.

[Victor_c3]

47. Basically exactly what I was going to say n/t

[bobbieinok]

10. Germans deliberately sent Lenin to Russia knowing his goal was to start a revolution

They put Lenin in a train that they kept sealed all the way through Germany so that Lenin could not infect Germany with his revolutionary ideas.

When Russia sued for peace after the revolution, the German terms were very harsh. When Germany finally surrendered but complained of the terms, Germany was told to look at the terms it imposed on Russia.

The storyb of the sealed train is told in the book To the Finnland Station.

[Bucky]

15. Of course the Russians had a perfectly good revolution without Lenin's help

The February Revolution in Petrograd was managed by the Soviets loyal to Kerensky's Revolutionary Socialist party. The Bolshies only later showed up and continued agitation at the Kaiser's request because Kerensky was being "bribed" by the Allies (with food for the starving millions) to stay in the war.

[bobbieinok]

24. In the early 60s it was said that Kerensky was working at the Hoover Institute

This was before the Institute became a RW 'think tank.'

[Victor_c3]

48. Lenin was, in part, sponsored by the Germans

Or at least enabled by them to get the revolution going. Germany actively wanted Russia out of the was ASAP.

[DonCoquixote]

11. actually they did so much dying

that the anger was one of the major reasons the revolution actually happened.

[Xolodno]

16. Everyone else has answered in the affirmative....but let me throw something else to make you go WTF!

The Kaiser of Germany and the Emperor (Tsar) of Russia were related. And it was the Kaiser who facilitated Lenin to return to Russia, thus have him taking over the Revolution and executing the Tsar and his entire family. With family like that....

[Algernon Moncrieff]

18. All of the European Royalty was related

To a lesser extent, they still are.

The current English royal family is the House of Windsor. It was originally the House of Saxe, Coburg, and Gothe (sp?) and were related to the Kaiser. At the outbreak of WWI, they changed the name to the more Anglican "Windsor."

[Xolodno]

20. Yeap.

Even the current Royal Family in the UK has relationship to the Romanov's.

What strikes me as, well, not sure of the word, so lets use "odd". In some crime families, family is everything. Yet in Imperial families, its just a means to more power...what does that say?!

[Algernon Moncrieff]

27. OT: Have you seen "The Romanoffs" on Prime?

I binge watched the first three episodes on a flight. Interesting. It's in part about the (presumably fictional) modern lives of the decedents of the Russian royals.

[Xolodno]

54. LOL! I watched three episodes and decided...

...for fiction, it's pretty dull.

The actual history of the Romanoff's, is very interesting. If you every have a chance, pick up the book "The Romanoffs: 1613 - 1918" by Simon Sebag Montefiore. You won't be able to put it down.

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/p/the-romanovs-simon-sebag-montefiore/1122536574/2676898117793?st=PLA&sid=BNB_Core+Catch-All,+Low&sourceId=PLAGoNA&dpid=tdtve346c&2sid=Google_c&gclid=CjwKCAiA5qTfBRAoEiwAwQy-6W0winFAwJg6MAYoP8CB0BzxLcIGvl6D7WSq0t7qE2mvroi0D7uObBoCUm0QAvD_BwE

[trackfan]

22. George V and Nicholas II were first cousins

Members of their own family sometimes couldn't tell them apart:

[bobbieinok]

25. IIRC they're all descendants of Queen Victoria

[question everything]

21. Thank you all. What a trove of historical knowledge

I always knew that DUers are a great source of information.

[Xolodno]

26. Russia is...

..a riddle, surrounded by an enigma.

[LeftInTX]

31. Not really.

It's been a European wanna be since the first Tzar.

It just has a bunch of land in the west called Siberia.

[Silver1]

46. Hehe here.

I agree with you! What a great read.

[LeftInTX]

32. Royals were all related......all over Europe

I think that was somehow a form of "diplomacy".

I this case, it didn't do much good!

[GeoWilliam750]

35. Queen Victoria's first grandchild was

Kaiser Wilhelm II

The others that followed included most of the royal houses of Europe.

[uriel1972]

41. If it wasn't for families we'd have to fight with total strangers...

(not my line)

It was without a doubt the biggest family fight of all time. Apart from the French and the Turks, it was pretty much a Royal family affair.

[Xolodno]

55. heh...a family affair that...

...wiped out lives, other families, set up the trajectory of WW2, the Holocaust and destabilized the Mid-East, Africa, etc. which still has repercussions today.

It makes the Kardashian's show look like small potatoes. Side note, the Kardashian's history is actually interesting, much more so than what they are today.

[grantcart]

23. You could have a semester course on this question.

The simplest one sentence answer is:

WWI was the midwife for the Russian revolution.

[question everything]

50. I am sure I can

perhaps in the next life

[mikehiggins]

34. czarist russia was heavily involved in WW1 at the outset.

Recommended reading in The Road to the Finland Station explains how the German high command shipped Lenin back to Russia, sparking the Bolshevik movement which was a large factor in the successful overthrow of the Czar. When the imperial government fell it was only a short time until the new regime withdrew from the war.

[question everything]

51. This is interesting

Thus, Russia was in, but the Soviet Union (before it actually became the Soviet Union) withdrew.

This is what confused me, not having the chart of the dates; I knew that they had a revolution to deal with.

Thank you.

[GeoWilliam750]

36. Perhaps the best read for all of this might be

The Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clark

[Crunchy Frog]

37. Yes. The devestation of the war was a big part of what pushed them towards revolution.

[mcar]

42. My husband's maternal grandfather

was a 19 yo soldier in the Russian army. He was sent here with some others in 1917 to buy weapons for the war effort. When the revolution broke out, he was stuck here. He could never return, never saw his family again.

[qazplm135]

53. WWi?

I know Apple has its hands in a lot of things these days but...

[question everything]

56. Groan! Corrected