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Could RUMPS secret service block (Original Post) bluestarone Nov 2018 OP
It was an issue with Watergate, but they ended up serving them to subjects' lawyers. hlthe2b Nov 2018 #1
TY bluestarone Nov 2018 #2
A more interesting question..... getagrip_already Nov 2018 #3
The crowds in the streets outside the White House will make him change his mind about that TeamPooka Nov 2018 #7
doubt it.... getagrip_already Nov 2018 #9
all while televised live on TV? get real, not paranoid like the GOP TeamPooka Nov 2018 #10
remember those proud fools who were caught with sniper rifles on a roof in washington? getagrip_already Nov 2018 #12
I think you give them too much credit. They know they're outnumbered. Crutchez_CuiBono Nov 2018 #27
Can't SS members who prevent Trump's arrest Progressive Jones Nov 2018 #22
You can't serve someone's lawyer without their consent Jersey Devil Nov 2018 #4
If the lawyer has represented the client in related cases or issues related to this case. NightWatcher Nov 2018 #6
There is no "case" pre-indictment Jersey Devil Nov 2018 #8
Again, the judge allowed the DNC to do so with Jared Trump's attorneys...per Jill Wine-Banks hlthe2b Nov 2018 #15
You could give notice in his favorite newspaper then maybe? Crutchez_CuiBono Nov 2018 #31
You have to serve someone personally in most cases Jersey Devil Nov 2018 #36
Good to know. Crutchez_CuiBono Nov 2018 #37
DOJ could serve his personal attorney. That counts in matters like this. NightWatcher Nov 2018 #5
That is what I said in post #1... DNC did so as well with Jared hlthe2b Nov 2018 #16
in all seriousness... getagrip_already Nov 2018 #11
Remember, Dirty Donny* has his own private Goon Squad (R) Achilleaze Nov 2018 #14
It is a non issue. former9thward Nov 2018 #13
Not true: 1974 US V Nixon: after Nixon was subpoenaed for the Watergate tapes hlthe2b Nov 2018 #18
It is true. Please read the decision. former9thward Nov 2018 #20
It is true that the subpoeana was delivered to the President for HIS tapes, thus US v NIXON hlthe2b Nov 2018 #21
The issue is a person's testimony. former9thward Nov 2018 #24
Subpoenas can be for materials, documents, OR for testimony. They are still Presidential subpoenas hlthe2b Nov 2018 #25
Jefferson did not testify in the trial. former9thward Nov 2018 #29
Honestly. you apparently refuse to read the article. hE WAS SUBPOENAED AS WAS NIXON. hlthe2b Nov 2018 #32
He was subpoenaed and refused. former9thward Nov 2018 #39
Contrary to your false assertion, there have been two Presidents served subpoenas in history: hlthe2b Nov 2018 #41
You are incorrect on several points. First, Thomas Jefferson was subpoenaed in the Burr trial. hlthe2b Nov 2018 #23
The Nixon case was for hard evidence not testimony. former9thward Nov 2018 #26
It was still a Presidential subpoena in both cases. Perhaps you should read the article cited and hlthe2b Nov 2018 #28
Jefferson DID comply in Washington for oral testimony, not in Richmond as originally requested hlthe2b Nov 2018 #30
No he did not. former9thward Nov 2018 #33
He OFFERED to which meant that he accepted the legal responsibility to do so and validity hlthe2b Nov 2018 #34
Nixon was not subpoenaed for testimony. former9thward Nov 2018 #40
Contrary to your false assertion, there have been two Presidents served subpoenas in history: hlthe2b Nov 2018 #42
YOUR assertion was that "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with hlthe2b Nov 2018 #46
Your original false assertion: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served w hlthe2b Nov 2018 #43
Your original false assertion: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served w hlthe2b Nov 2018 #45
you claim: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" FALSE hlthe2b Nov 2018 #47
You are deliberately trying to be obtuse. former9thward Nov 2018 #48
NO, you are intentionally trying to state what you did not pose. It is disingenuous as hell hlthe2b Nov 2018 #49
You said Jefferson testified. former9thward Nov 2018 #50
You claim: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" FALSE hlthe2b Nov 2018 #51
You need to join Mueller's team. former9thward Nov 2018 #53
I should. I would love that. hlthe2b Nov 2018 #54
I say let Acosta serve him at a presser. n/t Whiskeytide Nov 2018 #17
Now THIS i like bluestarone Nov 2018 #19
BOOM!! Crutchez_CuiBono Nov 2018 #35
No - it would be delivered to the WH Counsel. brooklynite Nov 2018 #38
Ultimately, it is not his Secret Service. scarletlib Nov 2018 #44
I want to see his tax returns... :) SimpleC Nov 2018 #52

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
1. It was an issue with Watergate, but they ended up serving them to subjects' lawyers.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 05:56 PM
Nov 2018

So, presumably, no.

DNC had to go this route to serve Jared Kushner, too.

getagrip_already

(14,750 posts)
3. A more interesting question.....
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 06:27 PM
Nov 2018

Is what happens if trump just ignores a subpoena and tells the court to pound sand.

No court officer could get close to him. He pretty much is untouchable if he wants to be. Unless and until the house impeaches him and the senate convicts him, he is potus with virtually unlimited authority.

TeamPooka

(24,226 posts)
7. The crowds in the streets outside the White House will make him change his mind about that
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 06:35 PM
Nov 2018

if it happens.
If he acts like that then that's when the New Revolution starts.

getagrip_already

(14,750 posts)
9. doubt it....
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 06:38 PM
Nov 2018

Trump would LOVE riots and large demonstrations. He would unleash the brown shirts.

The army and police would keep the crowds back, and the thugs would pick them off with sniper rifles.

That's not the answer.

getagrip_already

(14,750 posts)
12. remember those proud fools who were caught with sniper rifles on a roof in washington?
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 06:44 PM
Nov 2018

They weren't there to take pictures. I have no doubt some of his supporters would shoot, or drive a truck through a crowd, or toss a bomb, or whatever. Some whackos would love to do it on tv.

Crutchez_CuiBono

(7,725 posts)
27. I think you give them too much credit. They know they're outnumbered.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:22 PM
Nov 2018

VASTLY. I hear your concerns but, at some point...it's GO time.

Jersey Devil

(9,874 posts)
4. You can't serve someone's lawyer without their consent
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 06:30 PM
Nov 2018

Serving someone's lawyer with a subpoena is not good service unless the lawyer acknowledges that he has been authorized by his client to accept the subpoena.

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
6. If the lawyer has represented the client in related cases or issues related to this case.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 06:32 PM
Nov 2018

In public cases you see it more than others.

Jersey Devil

(9,874 posts)
8. There is no "case" pre-indictment
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 06:35 PM
Nov 2018

In the same litigation, yes, but not "related" cases, whatever that means.

In a grand jury investigation (by Mueller) it would only apply to someone already indicted, and only if "related" to that specific case, not some other subjects.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
15. Again, the judge allowed the DNC to do so with Jared Trump's attorneys...per Jill Wine-Banks
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 07:41 PM
Nov 2018

I'm sure you can pull up some of her appearances wherein she discusses this in detail including their intent to do so in Watergate and Nixon's lawyers DID take the subpoenas for the tapes.

Crutchez_CuiBono

(7,725 posts)
31. You could give notice in his favorite newspaper then maybe?
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:25 PM
Nov 2018

The New York Times? You can't run from Federal Service of Process....eventually, we get you.

Jersey Devil

(9,874 posts)
36. You have to serve someone personally in most cases
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:36 PM
Nov 2018

If you cannot serve them personally then you move before the court for permission to use special substituted service. That's when things like publication in a paper come in, with the court's permission. Publication is usually done when you have made a diligent search for the person but cannot find them.

Service on an attorney can only be done by agreement with the client and attorney, sometimes to avoid embarrassment like process servers at your front door, etc. It's an accommodation so that there is no public spectacle when the subpoena is served.

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
5. DOJ could serve his personal attorney. That counts in matters like this.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 06:30 PM
Nov 2018

If he has used his personal attorney in motions related to this issue and Mueller would ultimately want to serve him, he could do it this way.

getagrip_already

(14,750 posts)
11. in all seriousness...
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 06:41 PM
Nov 2018

The courts could just order the secret service to allow the subpoena to be served. They are not his personal army; they gave an oath to uphold the constitution and can be jailed if they refuse a lawful order.

Achilleaze

(15,543 posts)
14. Remember, Dirty Donny* has his own private Goon Squad (R)
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 07:20 PM
Nov 2018

since Day 1 - in case he needs to muscle America's Secret Service and other Law Enforcement Officials out of the way to preserve his lying, cheating, troop-demeaning republican ass.

* aka republican Draft-Dodger-in-Chief

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
13. It is a non issue.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 07:13 PM
Nov 2018

No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena. The issue would go into the courts and last at least a year or more before a final decision. Mueller is not going to go through that since he got his written questions answered anyway.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
18. Not true: 1974 US V Nixon: after Nixon was subpoenaed for the Watergate tapes
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 07:53 PM
Nov 2018

That was a UNANIMOUS US Supreme Court decision

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
20. It is true. Please read the decision.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:02 PM
Nov 2018

In the Nixon case evidence (the tapes) was subpoenaed -- not the President. A monumental difference legally. And that is TRUE.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
21. It is true that the subpoeana was delivered to the President for HIS tapes, thus US v NIXON
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:11 PM
Nov 2018

United States v. Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974), was a landmark United States Supreme Court case that resulted in a unanimous decision against President Richard Nixon, ordering him to deliver tape recordings and other subpoenaed materials to a federal district court.

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
24. The issue is a person's testimony.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:18 PM
Nov 2018

That would be issue (remember the OP) if Mueller wanted to subpoena Trump. That has never been done. If there was a court fight Mueller would not be using the Nixon case for his side.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
25. Subpoenas can be for materials, documents, OR for testimony. They are still Presidential subpoenas
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:19 PM
Nov 2018

You are confused. And yes, Jefferson did appear for testimony after being subpoenaed in the Burr trial. So, again, you are imistake. It has, indeed happened. Once for testimony (Jefferson) and once for documents (ie. tapes, Nixon).

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
41. Contrary to your false assertion, there have been two Presidents served subpoenas in history:
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 07:37 AM
Nov 2018

Jefferson and Nixon. Both provided documents.


While you keep creating strawman arguments. you were wrong when you stated emphatically in post 13
"No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena".


Wrong

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
23. You are incorrect on several points. First, Thomas Jefferson was subpoenaed in the Burr trial.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:17 PM
Nov 2018

and yes, Nixon was subpoenaed for those tapes... successfully.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/05/22/can-the-president-be-indicted-or-subpoenaed/?utm_term=.0a264e3a5a12

The first case in which this came up was Aaron Burr’s treason trial. Marshall, sitting as a trial judge in 1807, “at first concluded that since the President is the first magistrate of the United States, and not a King who can do no wrong, he was subject to the judicial subpoena power,” according to the OLC memo.

This particular subpoena went to President Thomas Jefferson, compelling him to testify in court in Richmond. Jefferson decided not to go, claiming he was too busy running the government, but he submitted documents and offered to give testimony in Washington. And that was that.

Months later, Marshall seemed to revise his thinking and said courts were not “required to proceed against the President as against an ordinary individual.” In an 1838 decision, Kendall v. United States ex rel. Stokes, the Supreme Court took an even narrower view of the judiciary’s power concerning the president, according to the OLC memo.

“The executive power is vested in a president; and so far as his powers are derived from the constitution, he is beyond the reach of any other department, except in the mode prescribed by the constitution through the impeachment,” the court said.

Fast-forward 167 years to U.S. v. Nixon, the landmark Supreme Court case from 1974. Chief Justice Warren E. Burger wrote for the court that Nixon, still in office amid the Watergate scandal, had to comply with a subpoena seeking records and tapes of the president talking to aides and advisers. These records were to be reviewed in private by a federal judge, the court said.

“To read the Art. II powers of the President as providing an absolute privilege as against a subpoena essential to enforcement of criminal statutes on no more than a generalized claim of the public interest in confidentiality of nonmilitary and nondiplomatic discussions would upset the constitutional balance of ‘a workable government’ and gravely impair the role of the courts under Art. III,” Burger wrote.

Burger addressed Marshall’s statement 167 years earlier that courts were not “required to proceed against the president as against an ordinary individual.”

“Marshall’s statement cannot be read to mean in any sense that a President is above the law,” Burger wrote, “but relates to the singularly unique role under Art. II of a President’s communications and activities, related to the performance of duties under that Article.”

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
26. The Nixon case was for hard evidence not testimony.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:21 PM
Nov 2018

If you don't know the legal difference I can't help you in the space we are allowed here. Your own snippet says Jefferson did not comply with the subpoena. He was "too busy".

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
28. It was still a Presidential subpoena in both cases. Perhaps you should read the article cited and
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:23 PM
Nov 2018

those from Laurence Tribe who has written extensively on it.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
30. Jefferson DID comply in Washington for oral testimony, not in Richmond as originally requested
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:24 PM
Nov 2018

Kindly read the article rather than putting forth that which is not true.

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
33. No he did not.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:25 PM
Nov 2018

He did not testify. And it was one of the reasons Burr was freed for lack of evidence.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
34. He OFFERED to which meant that he accepted the legal responsibility to do so and validity
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 08:26 PM
Nov 2018

of the Presidential subpoenas--both which you denied had ever before occurred. You are wrong

Nixon and Jefferson are the only two Presidents ever served with a subpoena, but served they WERE.

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
40. Nixon was not subpoenaed for testimony.
Tue Nov 20, 2018, 11:45 PM
Nov 2018

And Jefferson refused to testify despite you saying HE DID testify. FALSE.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
42. Contrary to your false assertion, there have been two Presidents served subpoenas in history:
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 07:41 AM
Nov 2018

Jefferson and Nixon. Both provided documents. I said they were served subpoenas. They were, despite your attempt to change the argument to subpoena somehow meaning only for testimony. It doesn't. Subpoenas (if you ever even read a law book, can be for documents, materials, testimony, tapes, or any number or physical items


While you keep creating strawman arguments. you were wrong when you stated emphatically in post 13
"No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena".


Wrong

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
46. YOUR assertion was that "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 07:53 AM
Nov 2018

a subpoena".... No matter of changing your argument makes that true.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
43. Your original false assertion: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served w
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 07:44 AM
Nov 2018

"No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" post 13.

No amount of changing your argument can make this statement true. It is demonstrably false as I have repeatedly stated.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
45. Your original false assertion: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served w
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 07:46 AM
Nov 2018

a subpoena" (your original post 13) DEMONSTRABLY false. Both Jefferson and Nixon WERE served.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
47. you claim: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" FALSE
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 07:59 AM
Nov 2018

Both Jefferson and Nixon were served. Both complied (despite Nixon's failed challenge to a unanimous decision in 1974 US v Nixon) to provide documents. Jefferson offered to testify, albeit in DC rather than requested Richmond.

You are very wrong and apparently do not understand that subpoenas can be for materials, documents, or testimony. They are still Presidential subpoenas, which you claimed: " "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" False

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/05/22/can-the-president-be-indicted-or-subpoenaed/?utm_term=.0a264e3a5a12

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/07/25/archives/presidential-subpoena-upheld-in-1807-marshall-opinion-not-immune.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/opinion/trump-lawyers-indicted-subpoena.html

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
48. You are deliberately trying to be obtuse.
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 10:14 AM
Nov 2018

Jefferson did not comply with the subpoena and did not testify despite your false assertions that he did. This whole thread was about TESTIMONY which is why I posted. No one has testified.

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
49. NO, you are intentionally trying to state what you did not pose. It is disingenuous as hell
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 10:19 AM
Nov 2018

I understand you were confused but you keep digging and I will continue to keep you honest to your actual assertion which is quite untrue.

In summary: YOU STATED: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" FALSE (your original post # 13)

Both Jefferson and Nixon were served. Both were served; both complied with release of documents (tapes) (despite Nixon's failed challenge to a unanimous decision in 1974 US v Nixon) to provide documents. Jefferson offered to testify, albeit in DC rather than requested Richmond.

You are very wrong and apparently do not understand that subpoenas can be for materials, documents, or testimony. They are still Presidential subpoenas, which you claimed: " "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" False

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/05/22/can-the-president-be-indicted-or-subpoenaed/?utm_term=.0a264e3a5a12

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/07/25/archives/presidential-subpoena-upheld-in-1807-marshall-opinion-not-immune.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/04/opinion/trump-lawyers-indicted-subpoena.html

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
50. You said Jefferson testified.
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 10:23 AM
Nov 2018

He did not. He refused to testify no matter where.

Jefferson refused to appear in Burr’s defense and released only a few of the documents Burr had requested, invoking his presidential right to protect the public interest.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/thomas-jefferson-subpoenaed-in-aaron-burrs-treason-trial

hlthe2b

(102,276 posts)
51. You claim: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" FALSE
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 10:25 AM
Nov 2018

I understand you were confused but you keep digging and I will continue to keep you honest to your actual assertion which is quite untrue.

In summary: YOU STATED: "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" FALSE (your original post # 13)

Both Jefferson and Nixon were served. Both were served; both complied with release of documents (tapes) (despite Nixon's failed challenge to a unanimous decision in 1974 US v Nixon) to provide documents. Jefferson offered to testify, albeit in DC rather than requested Richmond.

You are very wrong and apparently do not understand that subpoenas can be for materials, documents, or testimony. They are still Presidential subpoenas, which you claimed: " "No president (or his legal representatives) have ever been served with a subpoena" False

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/05/22/can-the-president-be-indicted-or-subpoenaed/?utm_term=.0a264e3a5a12

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/07/25/archives/presidential-subpoena-upheld-in-1807-marshall-opinion-not-immune.html

former9thward

(32,006 posts)
53. You need to join Mueller's team.
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 10:31 AM
Nov 2018

Since you know through NYT articles how easy it is to get Presidential testimony. Mueller has been negotiating for about a year now with Trump and his team for testimony. If they had you on the team you could have just shown them the articles and it would have been over a year ago. Please forward the links to Mueller. TIA. His contact is special.counsel@usdoj.gov

scarletlib

(3,411 posts)
44. Ultimately, it is not his Secret Service.
Wed Nov 21, 2018, 07:45 AM
Nov 2018

They are employees of the US Govt. Their charge is to protect him from physical harm not legal or political actions.

Also one wonders how much 'loyalty' they would have to him as a person considering how he treats the people beneath him in his employ.

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