HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » You Can't Get Conservativ...

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 12:19 AM

You Can't Get Conservative White Women To Change Their Minds

The great electoral opportunity of 2020 is not in converting Trump voters. It’s motivating the large numbers of Americans who don’t vote at all.

https://www.thenation.com/article/white-evangelical-women-trump/

Why is it so hard to believe that Trump supporters really do support Trump? The New York Times is always checking in with folksy rural conservatives in search of cracks in the wall. Remember the article just a few weeks ago with the white evangelical woman who put a Beto O’Rourke sticker on her car and drove it to church—and there, in the parking lot, was another car with a sticker for Beto?

For almost three years now, reporters have been begging tired farmers and miners eating their pancakes at Josie’s Diner in Smallville, Nebraska, to say they’ve seen the light. They never do. White evangelical women sneaking away from the Republican Party make for a good story—but they didn’t stop Ted Cruz from getting 81 percent of the white evangelical vote in Texas.

After Trump took the White House, and even after political scientists and pollsters figured out that many Trump supporters were not out-of-work Rust Belters but just your basic well-off Republicans, there was an orgy of self-criticism among Democrats and progressives. Somehow, those voters were our fault; we had neglected them, disrespected them, not felt their pain. The important sociologist Arlie Hochschild wrote a whole book about right-wingers in the Louisiana bayous who rejected curbs on the oil and gas industry that was destroying their way of life and instead blamed their problems on others (people of color, immigrants, women) “cutting in line.” In Strangers in Their Own Land, Hochschild called on us to climb the “empathy wall.” The unstated implication was that liberal condescension—not Trumpers’ racism, say—is the problem.

Another version of this idea is to call on progressive white women to convert other white women who support Trump. Nobody calls on white men to convert white men, because everyone assumes that’s impossible, but for some reason, white women who hate abortion and taxes and Obamacare, who want to “build the wall” and “lock her up,” are supposed to be pliable—and it’s the duty of liberal white women to expiate their own racism by bringing them around. It reminds me of the time years ago when a group of Nation interns came back after spending a weekend at a conference of Evangelical women. They beat themselves up about how those women weren’t feminists; again, it was all our fault.

snip

66 replies, 5078 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 66 replies Author Time Post
Reply You Can't Get Conservative White Women To Change Their Minds (Original post)
Celerity Nov 2018 OP
JI7 Nov 2018 #1
elleng Nov 2018 #2
brush Nov 2018 #3
Garrett78 Nov 2018 #34
brush Nov 2018 #37
iluvtennis Nov 2018 #4
No Vested Interest Nov 2018 #5
FakeNoose Nov 2018 #51
crazycatlady Nov 2018 #53
orleans Nov 2018 #6
Hortensis Nov 2018 #14
brush Nov 2018 #38
Hortensis Nov 2018 #44
brush Nov 2018 #45
Hortensis Nov 2018 #46
brush Nov 2018 #48
Hortensis Nov 2018 #49
brush Nov 2018 #52
marylandblue Nov 2018 #58
Hortensis Nov 2018 #63
Bettie Nov 2018 #66
Awsi Dooger Nov 2018 #7
Celerity Nov 2018 #8
brush Nov 2018 #50
58Sunliner Nov 2018 #59
brush Nov 2018 #60
58Sunliner Nov 2018 #62
brush Nov 2018 #64
Lars39 Nov 2018 #9
Celerity Nov 2018 #10
smirkymonkey Nov 2018 #11
TwistOneUp Nov 2018 #13
CrispyQ Nov 2018 #28
TwistOneUp Nov 2018 #39
Glorfindel Nov 2018 #55
TwistOneUp Nov 2018 #65
nolabear Nov 2018 #29
Celerity Nov 2018 #30
NewJeffCT Nov 2018 #22
CrispyQ Nov 2018 #31
NewJeffCT Nov 2018 #33
TwistOneUp Nov 2018 #12
Celerity Nov 2018 #16
TwistOneUp Nov 2018 #40
lindysalsagal Nov 2018 #15
hexola Nov 2018 #17
llmart Nov 2018 #19
Celerity Nov 2018 #20
DFW Nov 2018 #18
Buckeyeblue Nov 2018 #21
Paladin Nov 2018 #23
Downtown Hound Nov 2018 #27
TwistOneUp Nov 2018 #41
MarcA Nov 2018 #54
ProfessorPlum Nov 2018 #24
Iggo Nov 2018 #25
PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2018 #26
CrispyQ Nov 2018 #32
TwistOneUp Nov 2018 #43
crazycatlady Nov 2018 #35
KentuckyWoman Nov 2018 #36
Roland99 Nov 2018 #42
Initech Nov 2018 #47
Name removed Nov 2018 #56
libdem4life Nov 2018 #57
58Sunliner Nov 2018 #61

Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 12:25 AM

1. i don't expect them to convert them but i do think they should stop making excuses for them

and it's mostly white men who do that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 12:36 AM

2. BS.

NEVER GIVE UP.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 02:11 AM

3. This election should show we don't need them.

No need to change our message to pander to racist whites whether they be men or women.

A certain senator from a small state preached that in 2016 and it didn't work then and won't work now.

Who cares?

We just kicked their ass. Now we need to not only get out our votes for 2020, we need to develop tactics to stop their vote purging and vote suppression which will bring out even more votes for us.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brush (Reply #3)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 11:17 AM

34. Yeah, the misreading of the election results by some is infuriating.

Instead of being because there are dangerous, Nazi-sympathizing lunatics in charge, we're told the reason we took back the House is because people want more bipartisan compromise with said lunatics. Never mind that we lost Senate races pretty badly in MO, IN, TN and ND with candidates who indicated they would compromise with the lunatics.

It's essentially the white working class/economic anxiety bullshit all over again.

Huge turnout helped flip seats in Southern California, Arizona and elsewhere, so now some are saying it was the 50-state strategy at work, as if there aren't still a bunch of states that are unreachable precisely due to racism and sexism. Yes, we have a Senator in Alabama and once again we have a governor in Kansas, but it took unbelievably atrocious opponents to make that happen. Meanwhile, Corey Stewart got over 40% in a blue state. Corey fucking Stewart.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Garrett78 (Reply #34)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 02:06 PM

37. It is infuriating...these calls for bi-partisanship now that repugs lost.

There was nary a peep about bi-partisanship during trump's two years nor O's whole admin, but the first thing McConnell uttered after the election was a need for bi-partisanship to get things done.

Such BS, and that's the very thing the #FiveWhiteGuys are pushing in their push to oust Nancy Pelosi. Koch money is behind them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 02:11 AM

4. I'll don't think the women who support trumpty will change, just like the men won't. They

like blaming immigrants, minorities, Muslims, Jews, LGBT, etc for the state of their lives.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 02:22 AM

5. I believe these people are following the direction of their ministers. nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to No Vested Interest (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:20 PM

51. If the guy in the pulpit is telling them how they should vote

... they should get up and walk out. That's what I would do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to No Vested Interest (Reply #5)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:41 PM

53. Their husbands

My grandfather used to fill out my grandmother's ballot and all she did was sign it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 02:58 AM

6. you can't change an asshole

they have to want to change.

(just the same principle that applies to other things as well)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to orleans (Reply #6)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 06:31 AM

14. Wouldn't put it that way, but personality rules, and

personality is both genetically wired and environmentally developed.

This article reflects the "white man's burden" mentality of a certain type of leftists who assume that a natural superiority of liberals means we're responsible for the wellbeing, including the voting behavior, of lesser peoples.

Don't accuse those of profound bigotry against conservatives and vast contempt for not just them but also the Democratic Party for always failing in its duty, though. They won't believe it. They know they're right in their determinedly clueless foolishness as surely as recalcitrant trumpsters do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hortensis (Reply #14)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 02:11 PM

38. WTH? "...profound bigotry against conservatives...?

Did you actually write that, as if conservatives aren't the profound bigots and continue to be?

They helped give us effin' trump.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brush (Reply #38)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 04:16 PM

44. Who do you imagine I'm talking about but people

especially prone to political bigotry? More than "ordinary" folk like us? The farther left you go into radical-extremist range, the more people start resembling their personality counterparts on the far rights in some important ways, very much including their shared profound contempt for mainstream people on both sides, but especially mainstream liberals.

Btw, regarding political bigotry, just look at some of the posts on threads about conservatives on this forum. Try substituting "blacks" or "Mexicans" for "Republicans" or "conservatives" in the worst of the comprehensive insults to ALL conservatives and see how they sound.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hortensis (Reply #44)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 04:21 PM

45. Please, I have no pity for conservatives/racists. They've done too much damage...

to not just POCs but to working and middle class whites as well (many who don't even know it).

Whatever negative effect the far left has had on society is historically minuscule compared to what slavers, segregationists and now conservatives/teabaggers/trumpists have and continue to have on the country.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brush (Reply #45)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:07 PM

46. See? "conservatives/racists" as if the two were

synonymous. They are not. AND as if all conservatives were the same. They are not.

I'm in no way defending the choices of those who've voted for Trump AND of most of those in elective office these days. The Republican Party has been on a downward slide into political depravity and corruption for a long time now.

But even in normal times, much less now, many people here have no more tried to learn about what conservatives believe in and how and why they react than the most conservatives have bothered to educate themselves about what liberals believe and why we make the choices we do. For those indulging in both sides, understanding is rejected and what they want to believe embraced, often proudly and passionately, even if not even close to true.

This is an essay from a moderate conservative who holds views on both sides of the spectrum depending on issue about the kind of treatment he might receive at Thanksgiving from a "Crazy Uncle Al" if he was stupid enough to engage in political discussion with him. Significantly, note that this fairly reasonable, intelligent man ascribes this behavior only to those who actually engage in it, in his experience most typically some on the farther left, not to all. I don't quite agree with how he characterizes left wing views, but we'd have little trouble understanding each other.

The Dangers Of Political Bigotry

Before I ventured into the realm of Mad Mikes America I had never really considered political bigotry. I sort of knew it existed – all I had to do was listen to politicians and there it was smacking me in the face – but it didn’t affect me in the slightest. I tended to ignore it. Not always I have to admit as, sometimes, it was difficult to ignore it as it could, from time to time, annoy me enough for me to get mildly irritated or even, on occasion, downright angry.
Political bigotry is not, by any stretch of the imagination, entirely the province of the right wing either. That, more than anything, is what has surprised me the most really.

I always, clearly naively, assumed that bigotry tended to be a right wing ethos whether against someone of a different colour or ethnicity or religion or whatever it may be.

Finding out that those of a more ‘left wing’ political persuasion can also be bigoted has, I freely admit, come as something of a surprise to me.

A recent commenter pointed out that he was surprised, given my ‘right of centre’ credentials, that I was alarmed at the prospect of a President Trump. His surprise was actually a surprise to me. Trump is not ‘right of centre’ he is just a nutcase. If he qualifies as anywhere on the ‘right’ then, frankly, he’s probably fallen off the edge.

Politically I can be ‘right of centre’ but, equally, I can be ‘left of centre’. It depends entirely on the topic in question. In fact I don’t consider myself ‘right’ or ‘left’ or, indeed, anything politically. I am, by nature, quite a pragmatic person. Being pragmatic however does mean that if I think someone of the ‘left’ or the ‘right’ is talking tosh then I will say so.

If someone wants to ‘pigeon hole’ me there isn’t much I can do about it.

A regular commenter, ‘Cherries‘, for example is clearly under the impression that I am a 21st Century version of Attila The Hun or someone of that ilk. Personally I couldn’t care less and consider her – I’ve always assumed it’s a her anyway – probably the most bigoted left wing person I’ve come across.

To me, your views are your views. If your views are that you deny the Holocaust happened then your views are insane and there is no point whatsoever debating or discussing with you.

If your views are that mass immigration is great then there is little point in debating with you as the moment anyone does you will, if you are so entrenched in your views, call them racists or xenophobes and, as I have discovered, no amount of gentle suggestion at intelligent debate will stop the screeching and rabid bigotry.

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that democratic politics may actually be in it’s death throes at the moment. Recovery is starting to seem unlikely as the polarisation of views is reaching a stage where the actual idea of sensible debate and an exchange of views is becoming increasingly difficult if not impossible.

This, I believe, is due to the increasing bigotry of both left and right. Both sides are determined that their view of the world in general is correct therefore the opposite argument is the spawn of Satan – or something like that.

I will give you an example.

I have, on more than one occasion, ridiculed Trump regarding his wall across the Mexican border. It’s a stupid idea. By the same token I have consistently stated that it is my belief that mass immigration into any nation will always be an unmitigated disaster.

Some seem to have failed to realise the nuances and my opposition to any type of mass immigration makes me the bastard brother of Sarah Palin. Ludicrous.

If I was racist or xenophobic I assume I would be rabidly against anyone coming to Britain who wasn’t born here and was white. I assume I would be a fully paid up member of some far right party.

For some reason, some have pointed to UKIP as said far right party. Firstly, I am not and have never been a member of UKIP. I have voted for them as a protest vote but I have also, in my past, voted both Labour and Conservative. I have also voted for a couple of independent candidates locally. One was particularly keen on protecting the environment.

It seems to me that it is not fashionable to be pragmatic any more. If you do not nail your flag to the pole of either the ‘left’ or the ‘right’ then you get it in the neck from both sides for being a racist, xenophobic, environment hating, capitalist (left) along with being an immigrant lover, traitor to your country, left wing tree hugger, and etc.

Oh well.

I will just carry on being a racist, xenophobic, environment hating, capitalistic, immigrant loving, traitor to my country whilst hugging trees – and did I mention loving animals as well?

What I will never be is a bigot.

I leave that to the far left and far right.

Extremism isn’t my cup of tea.

Democratic politics is under threat. Freedom of speech is under threat. Our right to hold and express an opinion is under threat. The right to express an opinion that may offend someone is under threat.

The above is not under threat from ISIS. It’s under threat from our very own left and right mainly because they don’t like it if you have the audacity to hold an independent view that doesn’t happen to coincide with theirs.

https://madmikesamerica.com/2016/06/the-dangers-of-political-bigotry/

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hortensis (Reply #46)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:13 PM

48. Do you know how you're coming off?

Of course we here on DU differentiate between the types of conservative and have respect for the "good" ones .

Give me a break.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brush (Reply #48)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:14 PM

49. Consider this a break.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hortensis (Reply #49)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:20 PM

52. Thank you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hortensis (Reply #46)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 06:18 PM

58. I agree with you, and I think many on DU are missing the point

The goal is not to convert the unreachable mass of conservative voters. It's to pick off enough reachable people to make a broader coalition of Democratic voters. You don't do that by painting everyone who voted for Trump as a racist. You also don't have to give up any core values.

We actually succeeded this November. We picked up suburban areas that had not voted Democratic in many decades. Even places we lost saw large shifts towards Democrats.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to marylandblue (Reply #58)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 07:08 PM

63. Exactly. That is just what happened this November.

We picked up a lot of conservative voters by campaigning on common interests, the ACA/healthcare across the nation plus other local issues.. But I'm pretty sure even more was that coming to see what Trump and the Republican caucuses are up to drove significant numbers to refuse to support them.

Thanks for pointing out that trying to understand others does not require giving up core values. BIG point.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hortensis (Reply #46)

Mon Nov 26, 2018, 10:47 AM

66. In a lot of cases it is absolutely true

there may be a minority who aren't actively racist, but they are sure as hell OK with racism if it serves their agenda.

I'm related to a scary number of right wingers. Most are evangelicals.

The women? They are racists in a casual way. They simply don't care what happens to POC, since they are white.

They care about their families, their children, their relatives, some of the people in their church as long as they appear to be compliant with all the "rules", which include political support for right wing agendas.

They will scream about the rights of the unborn, but once they're born? They are on their own, no help because "that woman (the mother) got herself into this, she should have kept her legs closed if she didn't want to raise a child in poverty.

They tend to be very angry that there are brown people around and that some of them don't speak perfect English. They also become very angry when reminded that some of their grandparents spoke nothing but German until the day they died. They are quick to note that those grandparents were "deserving" immigrants.

As to the article you posted? Sounds like the typical "well, I'm not a bad person" list of excuses I hear every holiday as my relatives and in-laws attempt to explain why it is A-OK to put small children in cages.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 03:17 AM

7. Those white women are the most vile of all

 

I get into arguments with conservatives all the time, including this year at Thanksgiving dinner. The simplistic angry white males are lost causes but when you argue the other way and best their material, at least they know enough to shut up and change the subject.

Not so with those white conservative women. They refuse to surrender any point. It doesn't matter if they have to repeat something 10 times, they'll do it. They point fingers and they get loud. Mean eyes. Hate overflows.

I've noted the one phrase the white women despise is, "The 46% party." They don't hear it anywhere else. Consequently I use that all the time. Trump managed only 46% of the vote against Hillary. Somehow Republicans confused 46% for victory and universal love.

That phrase is so effective I'm convinced some form of it could be a great nickname for Trump, one that could really get under his craw. He already hates that Hillary got millions more votes. To be constantly reminded of his 46% status would be marvelously entertaining.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Awsi Dooger (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 03:58 AM

8. it is more like the 30% Party when you count in all eligible voters (including non voters)

I have zero close friends and zero family who are Trumpkin types. I consider it a great and fortunate thing. The closest I have to it would be some of my father's Tory relatives in London and Edinburgh (most of them switched to SNP years ago). Even they despise Trump and his viscous troglodytic minions.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Awsi Dooger (Reply #7)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:16 PM

50. How about "45 only got 46%"?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brush (Reply #50)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 06:52 PM

59. He got 26.5% of eligible voters, mostly men. Stop repeating lies.

Only @58% of all eligible voters voted. "The 46% party."-isn't 46%.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 58Sunliner (Reply #59)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 06:56 PM

60. Stop the crap. Everyone knows we're talking about actual voters.

Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2018, 07:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brush (Reply #60)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 07:06 PM

62. It isn't crap. It is called being accurate.

"The 46% party."-isn't 46%, it is 26.5% of eligible voters who voted. See how that works? A percentage is defined by a minimum of 2 factors.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 58Sunliner (Reply #62)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 07:22 PM

64. Whatever. It's just a play on the numbers 45 and 46. Sheesh!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 04:49 AM

9. I just spent Thanksgiving with 2 conservative women.

my MIL and a SIL, who are both Southern Baptist missionaries. They will not ever vote Democratic because of abortion. They believe Democratics are evil, and Trump is accomplishing their abortion and End Times goals.
My formerly apolitical husband recently criticized Trump, while gloriously proclaiming himself a Democrat. In her role as religious enforcer, my MIL is trying to drive us away by being a hypocritical asshole towards me. Her version of shunning.
What she doesn’t realize is that her easygoing son is finally losing patience with her doing this kind of shit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lars39 (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:34 AM

10. Southern Baptist missionaries

tell them there is a nice island tribe that needs jeebus




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:47 AM

11. Heh, heh!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 06:18 AM

13. Hear here!

Fwiw, I believe that the "missionary" was a dupe to promote the church's cause. Fishermen told the kid that they would kill him, which is why the kid wrote and said, "Oh god, I don't want to die". So he knew there was danger. The church should have banned him from going. You can easily argue that the church benefitted from the kids death insofar as they Now Know that missionaries going there will be killed, and that this was the church's modus operandi - the kid was a "canary", and the island the "coal mine".

So, is there any doubt that there was a profound lack of fear? The kid wanted to go. Faith - and/or the church - replaced reason, the kid's fear was downplayed, and thus he lost his life when reason could have saved him.

This is what happens when you replace common sense with belief. Sometimes you don't pay a price, and other times you do. People with common sense, e.g. the church, would have benefitted had the kid survived - just ask the Native Hawaiians "who benefitted?" when missionaries "introduced" their island chain to the christian god. Some people, notably Mahu (native hawaiian 'third gender' people), were killed, tortured, and abused.

Perhaps the Native People on the island wanted to avoid all that? Just an idea.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TwistOneUp (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 10:44 AM

28. "Hear here!" - Love that.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CrispyQ (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 03:03 PM

39. Tanks! nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TwistOneUp (Reply #13)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:47 PM

55. Interesting choice of terms. A 27-year-old grown man is not generally supposed to be a "kid."

Does infantilizing this man make the islanders' "crime" more reprehensible?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Glorfindel (Reply #55)

Mon Nov 26, 2018, 10:33 AM

65. I'm 65. He's 27. To me, he's a kid.

Neither I nor anyone else is "infantilizing" him. Reading your statement, it sounds to me like you are trying to defend the cowardly actions of others.

Allowing someone that represents your organization to get themselves killed when you know there is a significant probability of the person being killed is, at the absolute least, a *huge* liability, as well as non-trivially immoral / amoral. Certainly, in some legal systems, it could be considered manslaughter. As a beneficiary of the good that will accrue if he had been successful, you also have to share in the downside if he is unsuccessful. And that's just the material relationship. I'm not going to even attempt to address the human loss implications / culpability issue(s). It's the ultimate downside if he fails, which is what happened.

I actually feel sorry for those that made the horrendous non-decision, by idly standing by, while this Young Man left on his fatal voyage. They have to live with that for the rest of their lives. Lotta PTSD will occur from this sad tragedy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Reply #10)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 10:45 AM

29. He was from Washington.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nolabear (Reply #29)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 10:49 AM

30. John Allen Chau? Yes, but I was replying about the poster's MIL and SIL

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Lars39 (Reply #9)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 09:26 AM

22. I had a friend like that

He was pretty liberal on most social issues, but would never, ever vote for Democrats because he was afraid they were going to take his beloved guns.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NewJeffCT (Reply #22)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 10:52 AM

31. I sent this to my rwnj cousin. He's a few years away from Medicare/SS.



I didn't get a response.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CrispyQ (Reply #31)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 11:03 AM

33. very true

it's worked for Republicans for decades, so they have no incentive to change.

BTW, this guy passed away in his mid 40s 3-4 years ago from issues that arose from his morbid obesity (400+ pounds) . Likely could have been prevented if he had better healthcare from a younger age. I know when I met him during the late 90s he had been through a series of poorly paying jobs with few, if any, benefits. I don't think that changed through the 2000s.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 06:01 AM

12. I don't think color has anything to do with it.

The fundagelicals want a christian nation. Anyone who proposes to give them one gets their attention. If you don't assure them that you are moving towards that goal, they won't waste time on you. Color is thus irrelevant.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TwistOneUp (Reply #12)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 07:04 AM

16. I respectfully disagree

I do acknowledge that there are millions of white fundies who are not a priori racist, but the majority of them are, IMHO. They knowingly support a white nationalist carnival barker in Trump, and a Republican party that is openly racist to a staggering degree.

If they only just wanted a Christian nation, one would think they would LOVE Latinx people to pour in, as they have amongst the highest percentage of group rates in terms of being Christians.

Trump doesn't use a dog whistle, he uses a bullhorn. 80% of Evangelicals (more in some states) vote for vermin like the neo-Nazi-lite Steve King. That asshole in Virginia, Corey Stewart got 40% of the total vote, DeSantis WON in Florida and he is an open race baiter and white nationalist.

Hell ART JONES, a REAL, actual Nazi got 26% of the vote in Illinois. And he was running against the worst Democrat in Congress, the pro-life, anti-immigrant (voted against the Dream Act and for Republican border security bills), anti Obamacare, anti LGBTQ (voted for DOMA and is openly against gay marriage), anti-Obama himself (he refused to endorse him) anti stem cell research, etc etc Dan Lipinski.

Nazi Running for Congress Wants You to Know He's So Much More Than Just a Nazi

https://splinternews.com/nazi-running-for-congress-wants-you-to-know-hes-so-much-1827976962


56,000 voters in Illinois House district preferred Holocaust denier

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2018/11/07/holocaust-denier-neo-nazi-arthur-jones-chicago-illinois-dan-lipinski/1918933002/

CHICAGO – More than 56,000 voters in a Chicago-area congressional district cast votes Tuesday for an avowed Nazi and Holocaust denier.

Self-proclaimed Nazi Arthur Jones, running as a Republican, managed more than a quarter of the vote against Democratic Rep. Dan Lipinski in the district that includes parts of Chicago’s South Side and several neighboring suburbs.



The racial demons that help explain evangelical support for Trump

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/4/30/17301282/race-evangelicals-trump-support-gerson-atlantic-sexism-segregation-south


White evangelical Protestants continue to approve of President Donald Trump at about twice the rate of the general public, according to a recent survey by the Public Religion Research Institute. Indeed, the figure is at an all-time high, with some 75 percent expressing a positive view as of March. Debating the question of why white evangelicals hold so fast for Trump has become a pastime for commentators, given that the president’s values and behavior would appear to be anathema to conservative Christians.

Among political evangelicals, at one ideological pole stand those who purport to see a seamless connection between their agenda and that of the current chief executive. “I think evangelicals have found their dream president,” Jerry Falwell Jr. gushed last May. An oft-heard variation on this view is that Trump may be a sinner, but he’s one chosen by God for a providential mission. But then there are the prominent hand-wringers. Veteran evangelical writers like Michael Gerson, David French, and Stephen Mansfield have been wrestling with the damage this strategic partnership may be doing to a once-great religious tradition.

It is an abandonment of the evangelical path, these writers argue — to varying degrees and with different emphases — for believers who claim to care about the poor, the suffering, and the outcast, not to mention sexual morality and civic virtue, to line up behind a belligerent boor who bullies women, Mexicans, and Muslims and who has a manifestly feeble understanding of religious texts and history. It’s not that evangelicals are personally prejudiced, these writers claim; nonetheless, they find it disturbing that such voters would overlook Trump’s racism and misogyny for short-term political gains.

But these sympathetic critics fail to grapple with the idea that Trump’s racism and misogyny might actually resonate with the evangelical base, which happens to constitute about 35 percent of the GOP coalition. In fact, racism and intolerance are more woven into the fabric of evangelicalism than these Christian critics care to accept.

snip

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Reply #16)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 03:10 PM

40. Your argument ...

Is well-researched and quite objective. Hard to argue with facts, even for Kelly Anne ConJob.

Thank you for all this work! I'll now amend my statement to a *white* xtian nation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 06:59 AM

15. Agreed. Evangelicals will die rather than wake up to reality. The anti-medicine cults, the anti-educ

education cults all prove year after year that they will continue to die to remain uninformed and irresponsible.

They've already chosen the "afterlife" over any happiness in this life. They don't believe life offers them a drop of happiness.

Their only emotional/psychological respite from their continuous, ingrained pain and loss (most likely sustained from a combination of poor genetic input and abhorrant parenting) is the self-righteous delirium of their cult congregations. Cults require the "other" for a target for their suffering, and the left will always provide it.

Fundies are a lost cause. As long as the government allows "home-schooling" they'll be raised cut off from any hope of joining the world.

We simply have to out-vote them.

I honestly believe that if you're not sending your children to public school, or a publicly accretided private school, you should not be allowed to vote. Nor should anyone who has not attended a real school of some kind. Since our society offers them everywhere, it should be a requirement of voting.

In my mind, schooling, taxes, all forms of licensing, banking, social security, and all health facility access should all be tied together into one identification program. Also, if you refuse any education for your kids, you should lose your access to your kids. Children should have some regular connection to the larger world.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 07:48 AM

17. I showed a WWFT some of Trumps WWF videos and the Eminem Shady Convention

 

She said - "fake - those are photoshopped" - the wall of denial she lives in is impenetrable.

This woman is a public school teacher...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hexola (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 07:57 AM

19. That's the scary part...

that she's a public school teacher. I hope people are keeping an eye on her and what/how she's teaching.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hexola (Reply #17)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 08:00 AM

20. LOLOLOL

what a fool, AND a menace, as she is a teacher

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 07:57 AM

18. I know a few of the crazies

These are the ones who would rather sink and drown with a Republican ship than ever jump over to a Democratic ship and live. They're all from various parts of Pennsylvania, so I know that Texas (or even the South) doesn't have a monopoly on self-delusion.

I agree--these people would LITERALLY rather die than vote for a Democrat, and they REALLY do let their children die if they are convinced that medical help is against their God's will (so much for "pro-life" ).

But I can't imagine they are all like that. There have to be SOME in that group (maybe too ashamed to admit it to their peers) who don't see the world as being flat just because some Republican idol told them it was.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 08:50 AM

21. This is less about gender and more about the New Christians

The New Christians (as I call them) have created a slightly different version of god and Jesus based on nothing but their own need to justify their own shortcomings. If I may generalize, the New Christians are mostly poor and mostly white. These people have become good at spouting racist theories while not explicitly point to minority groups. They have taken over Indiana and I think have spread to Ohio. They are like a virus, really. I'm just not sure what the cure is. Maybe we can develop a vaccine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 09:34 AM

23. Don't waste time in trying to convert them. Defeat them instead. (nt)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Paladin (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 10:43 AM

27. Best slogan ever.

Totally going to use that from now on whenever somebody tells me to reach across the aisle.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Paladin (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 03:17 PM

41. Hear here! nt

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Paladin (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:47 PM

54. Agreed. They are deep into Negationism. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 10:32 AM

24. The thing of it is, it doesn't make sense for people who value care and fairness, like us

that _anybody_ would support the harmful, unjust, authoritarian, freedom-killing agenda embodied in the orange asshole.

So, yeah, we treat them all with disbelief.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 10:35 AM

25. And so you shine a light on them for others to see.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 10:41 AM

26. Evangelicals have been taught never to think for themselves,

but to follow the authority of their religious leaders first, "Christian" secular leaders next. Women in particular are told they cannot possibly decide things for themselves.

And they're quite comfortable with that state of affairs.

The reason religious people so mistrust secular universities and colleges is that in those institutions young people are taught to look at evidence and information and come to their own conclusions about stuff. And those conclusions are usually far apart from what their religion has said all those years. Even public elementary schools open up children to a wider world than what they experience at home and in their church, and so are seen as dangerous by the most narrow minded afraid of truth people, hence home schooling.

On top of that, they sincerely believe that those who don't believe exactly as they do aren't worth caring about.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 11:00 AM

32. They are a waste of our time & resources.

The non-voter block is the biggest block. Go for it. Be bold & represent The People & show them that there is a difference between the two parties.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CrispyQ (Reply #32)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 03:18 PM

43. Exactly!

Fighting them is like wrestling in quicksand - both parties die.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 12:45 PM

35. I had (now deceased) family members like this

Women really didn't have a say in voting in such households. That is a decision left to the man of the house.

I also have heard this at the doors before too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 01:19 PM

36. I have one of these in my family.

She's nothing but a lying hypocrite who stomps off in a huff if you point it out. She's one those I got my abortion when I wanted one but now lets make it illegal for everyone and put the docs in jail. She's pro gun, pro death penalty and thinks Don the Con is going to sit right next to the baby Jesus in the heavens.

I asked her since when does God approve of tax cheats, liars and womanizers? (Trump) And I said guns, wars and death sentences are nothing but after birth abortions. Would Jesus approve? She stomped off yelling how I don't understand and hasn't come around since.

This article is correct. You can't fix stupid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 03:18 PM

42. Easy. One word: Abortion

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:08 PM

47. A lot of that is religion.

Conservative Christian churches just flat out reguse to change their core beliefs to reflect a diverse and changing world. Instead they choose to go backwards by 100 years and it's only hurting them.

Which is why they choose to vote that way, and by refusing to change their minds, they're losing numbers left and right.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 05:50 PM

57. I still maintain...OK,. hope...and they FEAR...that the White Patriarchy is

 

receding into the vagaries of not yet considered places. Progressives would call them minorities, people of OTHER faiths, the young...these folk have never been in the mix.

This 30-40%, for starters, are actual voters. Not of the adult population...which should whittle it down a bit.

Another factor that all of the above are learning that they, indeed, do have a say and can change things. Now that actual percentage falls even further as the number of actual first-time, or long time avoided politics voters come out to vote....due to the increased voters.

I think it's on the upswing, either way. And I haven't even addressed the rather obvious fact of the aging-out, aka, dying of the Old White Group.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Celerity (Original post)

Sun Nov 25, 2018, 06:59 PM

61. Yes. The emphasis needs to be on getting those who don't participate to vote.

A minority of white women voted for DT, Not the majority, not half. Do the math. What is it that stops people from voting?? Besides the obvious suppression, purging etc.. That still leaves a large margin of voters unaccounted for.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread