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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNeed to Get Something Straight Regarding Manafort
He's facing sentencing for those eight counts he was found guilty of back in August. Now, supposing he was sentenced. Rump could pardon him. That does not mean he goes free. He still has the other ten or eleven counts that he could be retried for. He also has added a few in recent weeks lying to Mueller's team. Rump cannot do a damned thing about that.
My questions:
1. Supposing Rump pardoned Manafort for the first eight counts, how long could the courts continue to keep Manafort in jail before retrying for the other ten or eleven counts? What is a reasonable estimate? Another year? Two years? I'm sure they could find a way to keep him there for a very long time, but I want to know what is a "reasonable" length we could expect.
2. Obviously Manafort knows that the longer they wait the less likely it will be that his buddy Rump will be in office to pardon him. So what the hell is his game plan here? Maybe I'm being completely stupid, but it seems like he continues to shoot himself in the foot. Is there any way in hell he would risk a life sentence just to protect Rump? Or does he feel safer surrounded by guards because Pooty Poot has a vial of polonium with his name on it?
Jersey Devil
(9,875 posts)as long as they are federal offenses. It does not matter if he was tried for them or not or even if he was indicted or not.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)So the question is, How long can they hold him till those are retried? Indefinitely? Remember how it was up to the judge to decide whether or not he wanted to retry those counts that resulted in a hung jury? And what about new counts for lying to Mueller? He's just racking up extra charges. At some point, Rump is going to be gone and will not be able to pardon him.
Jersey Devil
(9,875 posts)You seem hung up on whether or not he is tried for them. It does not matter. A pardon for all crimes committed in the past covers them.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Well crap! That just sucks.
Me.
(35,454 posts)and that polonium is a real reason to be afraid. Especially if his family has been threatened.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Listening to Rachel it's just incredible! Either he is an inveterate liar who can't help himself (like Rump), or he wants to stay right where he is.
Me.
(35,454 posts)as I don't know however, I wouldn't be surprised if he thinks silence is his best option all around
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The advantage that Manafort has is that he knows, for certain, what hes guilty of. Hes an intelligent guy, and probably has a good grip on what are his best options, albeit among a number of shitty options.
Jarqui
(10,131 posts)If they put him away for the rest of his life (which they might), he may regret that diet.
In his plea deal, which still has weight and validity, he also plead guilty to state level crimes.
If Trump pardons him, it can only be for federal crimes. They would just keep him locked up until he could be sentenced for state level crimes. Even if Gamble v USA prevails, they cannot get double jeopardy for tax evasion. Mueller would probably have some other crimes added. He's screwed.
A lot of people are howling "stupid ass - he should have copped a deal!!". An interesting fact came out tonight: Cohen stopped short of full cooperation too. Contrary to Cohen's stated reason - to allow him to be sentenced earlier, I suspect they both did it for the same reason: the judge might be lenient on a number of transgressions but his limits would be really tested if these two were traitors (as it appears they were). That's probably why they've been as harsh with Cohen as they've been. Cohen and Manafort appear to have put their own greed ahead of their country and that's probably worse to most Americans than anything Richard Nixon and his clowns did (ignoring that most didn't know he scuttled Vietnam peace behind the scenes to get elected). This paragraph is partly conjecture on my part but I think that I have reasonable foundation. I think that missing part in these documents might be the most damning.
If and when folks join those dots, they will not let Mueller's work be dismissed. These people may deserve gallows consideration.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)I take what you said to mean that his guilty plea on state level crimes still holds. He has torpedoed any deal for reduced sentencing he ever had.
Jarqui
(10,131 posts)Absolutely
but everything else he signed off on in his deal still sticks and can be held against him without having to argue about it in court. The only debate is the sentences for his crimes - not guilt or innocence.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Or is there something else that I'm missing?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Even aside from anything hes being prosecuted for now, he knows a lot of nasty things about the Russians and, for that matter, about Duterte.
Putin is not even his first rodeo. He cut his teeth working for Ferdinand Marcos.
Hes hardcore dirty, and has been involved in a lot of ugly for a very, very long time.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)He held out for a long time. Took the deal. Then reneged on it. The only reason I could think of for his taking it in the first place was that maybe it allowed him more access with lawyers who then communicated with the WH. But how would taking the deal have looked to any of those people you've mentioned who might be listening in? I'm telling you, there is something else we just aren't privy to here. Unless his lawyers were also communicating with the Russians somehow and he got the go ahead.
Here, I'm putting on my thinking cap for this one:
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...when has he ever made an honest deal with anyone?
If he swallowed a nail, hed shit a corkscrew.
I admire the thoroughness and utter purity of his complete corruption.
Look at that grin:
Thats a man at peace with who he is.
dalton99a
(81,656 posts)5. Manaforts alleged lies were also Russia-focused and deal with a big unknown
As soon as we found out last week that Manafort had allegedly lied to Muellers team, in violation of his cooperation deal, the question was about what. What was worth lying about for a man whose cooperation was required for the leniency he apparently sought?
Fridays filing in that case doesnt shed much light on what Mueller knows, but it is noteworthy how much of Manaforts allegedly lying pertain to his business colleague in Ukraine, Konstantin Kilimnik, whom the U.S. government has said has ties to Russian intelligence.
Muellers team says Manafort lied about a meeting with Kilimnik and also about Kilimniks role in a criminal conspiracy to get two witnesses against Manafort to alter their testimony.
Much of the document is redacted, but the sheer volume of Kilimnik in it leads to an obvious question: Why was Manafort trying to protect him? And could this link somehow play in the broader collusion probe? Was Manafort really worried about a foreign national being in trouble, or was he worried about Mueller connecting some dots that he didnt want connected?
Lots more questions. Not a whole lot more answers. But we have a little better idea of what Mueller is interested in, and what might be being covered up.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)Kilimnik is in Moscow now, right? He's untouchable. So why protect him? My only theory is that someone else knows a lot about the Manafort/Kilimnik association and has told Mueller. Manafort lied trying to save himself. In other words, Kilimnik is another covefefe boy. Because that report is so heavily redacted, it's impossible to say for sure. I agree that it is intriguing.