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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe illusion that one person is our problem.
The American system is broken. Many of us can see that. But the reason why is not obvious. We are focused on Trump as the one who broke it. It's easy to focus on him, because the problems became quite obvious once his candidacy gained traction and he got elected. So it's understandable why we focus on him. And understandable why many people think things will go back to "normal" once he is gone.
That's an illusion. The system was already broken before he started. It's the broken system that allowed him to win. And after he is gone, the system will still be broken. The racists will still be racists. The anti-democratic politicians in Wisconsin, North Carolina, Georgia etc., will continue their work and teach others how to do it. Fox News and right wing radio will continue broadcasting. The 1% will still try to stack things in their favor. Russia will still fight it's propaganda war against Western democracies.
The only solution is to reform the entire system. Things will never go back the way they were. The world has changed too much. We are going to need a new set of norms to restore the rule of law and protect ourselves from Russia. We will need to address the gross inequality of wealth. We will need to reformat our economy to combat climate change. We will need to win the hearts and minds of our fellow Americans. That's all a long term project
Impeachment would be nice, but it can't be our focus. Our focus has to be on reforming the system. Many societies have survived bad rulers. But society that need reform and fail end up smashed on the reefs of history.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)when elections happen. Believe me if 85% of americans voted, we wouldn't have the mess we have. Period
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 8, 2018, 03:02 PM - Edit history (1)
We have another unconscious illusion - the people are always right. So if the people just got up and voted, they would vote the right way. But the people can be wrong. All those non voters might vote for someone worse than Trump. You just don't know the answer and can't know until they actually vote.
erronis
(14,942 posts)Low voter turnout favors Republicans.
Cary
(11,746 posts)The 50% are broken. The system is fine.
Dustlawyer
(10,493 posts)that seem to be at the bottom of the hyper-partisanship we have been experiencing we could restore Representative Democracy.
Legalized bribery of our politicians is one root cause of our situation. Our politicians represent Donors, not constituents. When we judge our candidates based on how much in donations (bribes) they have raised we are doing this wrong. Real campaign finance reform is what is needed. More candidates doing what Beto has done will help!
Propaganda in our media really got going after the demise of Walter Cronkite. Fox News and the rise of RW radio started the programming of the electorate. These Trump supporters are nothing but programmed cult members. Reform in this area could eventually lower the rank partisanship we currently suffer from.
The questions I do not have the answers to are how to make this change come about. I suppose at the end of the day enough Americans will need to recognize the problems and demand the changes necessary.
manor321
(3,344 posts)I don't disagree with anything you've said but the Russia affair is really, really bad.
It's so bad that the House will be forced to take up impeachment. They won't have any other option.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Maybe it will be when all the information becomes public, but only if the Trumpsters in red states turn against him. That's the only way the Senate will convict him. And there is no guarantee those votes will change their minds. The purpose of all of Trump's tweets is to subvert the rule of law in the minds of his supporters.
He is not being stupid. His only salvation is to make his supporters believe it really is a witch hunt. So far he has succeeded, despite all the large and growing amount of information we already have. There is no guarantee that more information will change minds.
That's how a personality cult works. Truth becomes what the leader says it is. As long as the leader can maintain that illusion, he is safe.
Ferrets are Cool
(21,059 posts)but, and to me this is a BIG but....are we supposed to just sit here and grit our teeth while a KNOWN CRIMINAL sits in the Oval Office? Of course, your answer "could" be that we have already been in that situation when we allowed a War Criminal to serve out his term of office....not only serve out his term, but vote him into another 4 years.
So, yeah, we are probably farked as a Nation.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Congressional investigations may break the logjam on impeachment. Perhaps a series of indictments and pleas bargains of every senior Trump official will do it. But we can't count on that.
Meanwhile, we need to get on with reform work. I think Pelosi understands this quite well. That's why HR 1 is an anti-corruption bill.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)You can't allow a president to commit a felony with no consequences. It is their duty to do it. Even if it doesn't end up with removal from office, they can't just let it slide. If they do, then that will be the new normal.
ProudLib72
(17,984 posts)But it goes deeper than a broken system. Everyone who supports the corruption (the deplorables) are enablers of the broken system.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)And there is no direct solution. There are some things we can do, but as long as enough people actually like it this way, we will continue to decline.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,097 posts)because
a. he is a criminal and if he is above the law then all future prez will be also
and
b. he is actively, right now, harming and soon will be GREATLY harming Americans and others either directly or indirectly if not stopped as he and Bolton will start a war if not stopped
We are where we are and people are being hurt, now...everywhere.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)If we can't convict, he will consider it a victory and continue to cause his damage. Even if we do impeach and convict him, there is a very high probability of electing future criminals. He has shown that an evil idiot can get election. Imagine what a evil genius could do. What if someone who actually knew the law and didn't confess to crimes on twitter ran for office?
We don't have to imagine. Vladimir Putin already did it in Russia. We have stronger institutional safeguards against someone like that, but they are not unbreakable.
Impeachment is broken. Voting rights are under attack. DOJ and the courts still function, but they have been weakened. It wouldn't take much to break them all.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,097 posts)again when they get out, still have to do it.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)John Gotti went through multiple trials before they convicted him. He bribed and intimidated jurors and witnesses. He was brazen All it did was show how impotent the justice system was against him.
Before they could actually convict him, they need a rat, which Mueller got, and they had to sequester the jury and keep them anonymous.
Mueller has some rats now. But this time we have no way of sequestering or anonymizing the jury.
Response to marylandblue (Reply #20)
Eliot Rosewater This message was self-deleted by its author.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,097 posts)erronis
(14,942 posts)It will require a conviction.
I still think we should move forward with the impeachment actions and put the crimes in the faces of the MSM. Maybe get CNN onboard and put it up in airport terminals, bars, doctors' offices instead of the tripe and fux that is frequently shown.
The Liberal Lion
(1,414 posts)it will show at least part of the system is intact and ready to fight. I doubt he would be removed as a result of impeachment, but I think the democrats now have the duty to do so (impeach) and we must make them aware of this duty until it happens. Additionally we must be ready for the consequences of doing so, that is we the people.
anarch
(6,535 posts)Or at least put our minor little domestic and social issues into perspective.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)So these are not minor social issues. They are critical to our survival. Nature will definitely crush us if we don't respond now. Our track record is poor, our challenges are great, but nonetheless we must try. There is nothing else we can do.
Boomer
(4,159 posts)Toward the latter part of this century, people will look back at the first two decades with a much different perspective. Our concerns will seems petty compared to the turmoil caused by climate change.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)That's a lot of deplorables to deal with.
Iggo
(47,487 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)He is a particularly dangerous symptom, which is why I agree it would be good to remove him, but the fact that we cannot is the actual disease. It's like having AIDS. A compromised immune system is the disease, but that's not what kills you. The resulting infections kill you. Fighting the infections can prolong life, but only fighting the AIDS virus itself will save you.
Mitch McConnell is worse than Trump.in some ways. He is the reason the Senate won't protect Mueller. He also did more to destroy the norms of the Senate than any other person in history. There is a very good chance he will survive Trump and continue his damage.
Meanwhile, Trump army of solid voters and the corruption throughout the Republican Party do damage all on their own.
erronis
(14,942 posts)MineralMan
(146,192 posts)If we can't even manage an impeachment and removal, any change in that document will be impossible.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)We can only restore the norms that allow democracy to function, and even that is not easy. Taking back the House was a first step. Impeachment and removal would be a good second step, but not possible at the moment. So the second step is the 2020 election.
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)We need to understand that and make the very best possible use of it. We're wasting our time by trying to think of ways that can't possibly work. We have elections. Let's take advantage of them.
gulliver
(13,142 posts)Too many people think that "broken" means they need to get out a crescent wrench to hammer some screws into the engine block.
The system needs maintenance. Rational, empathic, human-valued maintenance. It's serving us, but it can serve better.
marked50
(1,350 posts)of terminology. The use of the concept of "Broken Government" has lead to the high numbers of those on the right who want to destroy what has been built over the years- such as all the great and human progressive victories.
The concept of care-taking/maintenance is better.
The one thing I would add is that Education-esp of civics and values- needs to be prioritized
erronis
(14,942 posts)the US has had its brakes checked.
NRaleighLiberal
(59,940 posts)What complicates it - and makes it even more depressing - is that it is beyond the US. There is a world problem. There is an authoritarian-on-the-rise problem. There is an anti-intellectual problem.
I do wonder that if people's life spans were longer, or we had the wisdom of multi-generational, multi-era analysis that was totally objective, we would see broad cycles - it seems to me we are in the midst of a down cycle, or perhaps on the way there - not yet at rock bottom.
That so many support trump, republicans, so many are conservative, so many are OK with authoritarianism is far more than single factor. The challenge is how to reverse it, of course. But something huge and widespread is going on - trump is not the root cause, the US is not the root cause - I fear that it is expression of regrettable traits in humanity itself - catalyzed by tribalism enabled by social networking used for ill instead of good, that contributes to this pretty awful place we find ourselves in.
CrispyQ
(36,225 posts)Western culture views it in terms of quarterly earnings. Our everything-for-profit mentality has deemed nothing sacred. Nothing. Everything is a commodity that must feed the corporate machine.
As for creeping authoritarianism, as a collective I think we see the writing on the wall, in spite of the deniers. Climate change is going to smack the big-brained humans back in their place. We're all just vying for a place that will provide us with the most cushion for the coming fall.
erronis
(14,942 posts)I do think we (humanity in its current form) will learn the value of long-term planning...... If we survive that long.
lostnfound
(16,138 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)That leadership is sorely lacking. The US, despite our many problems, is still in the best position to provide that leadership. But first we must start to solve our own problems.
Tribalism is a big issue. And I think that's why immigration has become a key issue. Not because people think rapists and job stealers are entering the country, that's just the conscious motivation. The unconscious motivation is tribalism. So we have to solve immigration, and that means we have to come up with an effective but humane enforcement mechanism. Also figure out what to do with the illegal immigrants already here.
At the same time, economic reform is necessary. We have to put the American and the world economy on a more equitable and sustainable footing. Such solutions are possible in theory, but history shows that politics and tribalism often prevent implementation.
I am not all that optimistic either. But we still have to try.
Firestorm49
(4,002 posts)Maven
(10,533 posts)of white, rural/exurban and increasingly resentful and paranoid citizens.
Trump is a symptom of that problem but you are right that we must address the root causes -- which are structural -- before we can ever hope to move forward as a country.
The Liberal Lion
(1,414 posts)Except I don't believe the system can be reformed. It's, IMHO, far to broken for repair. I know I am in the minority here in DU, and I'm fine with that, but I believe the system must be destroyed and a new, egalitarian, environmentally conscious system built to replace it. The system I'm talking about that needs destroyed is the economic system. Clearly capitalism is no longer a viable method, if it ever was, to insure the wider prosperity of the people. You are right it is a broken system of government that allowed trump to make it as far as he has. But it is an utterly corrupt economic system which informed the politics that allowed it to happen. Our system of government is destroyed while our system of economics is becoming the governing factor, filling the void, if you will, where the people have let it slip away. You are right removing donald trump from office does nothing to change the trajectory we are on. If we could remove him by impeachment and removal it would perhaps be a pyrrhic victory at best. The forces of intolerance and authoritarianism have gained a foothold, and even some of our treasured democrats somehow believe these nazis deserve a seat at the table.
If we are to have a victory we must control the terms. I have said it in other places here on DU, and I'll say it on this thread as well. We must summon the courage and gather the strength to destroy this economic system ourselves. It can and should be done legally and non violently. All we have to do, we the majority, is stop participating in it. The most easiest method that we all can do is stop using credit and live completely within or even under our means. For those who can, stop working for others and only work for one's self. And for the completely intrepid, becoming as self sufficient as possible. Going off grid and living off their own labors. I have other thoughts on this, but this post has already dragged on. Suffice it to say I believe this system must be destroyed, we must do it on our own terms, it can be done legally and non violently, and it must be undertaken now.
erronis
(14,942 posts)BigmanPigman
(51,430 posts)or The Tower card in Tarot.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Systems either reform themselves or collapse. The collapse is often violent. In the early 19th Century, the Ottoman Empire knew it was in trouble. Sultans began to initiate reform movements, that were opposed by political forces, sometimes violently. This went on for over a century until World War I destroyed the empire and a modern secular state emerged.
A similar thing happened in Russia, except the change made everything worse.
The British in the late eighteenth and early 19th Century also had to reform their political and economic system because of the industrial revolution. It was painful for many and took generations, but they managed to do it.
lostnfound
(16,138 posts)Citizens United accelerated the corruption and gave power to the most corrupt: the habits of corruption provided an opportunity for the Russians (and Saudis) to get their hands on not only Trump and the obvious Rohrbacher but probably others indirectly.
Alpeduez21
(1,739 posts)of the disease that is republican.
Still a simplification of the problem but an accurate reflection on the scope.
BadgerMom
(2,766 posts)=Republicans. The party needs to be held accountable Victory Uber Alle is not a democratic belief to live by.
PeeJ52
(1,588 posts)by how effective the new wave of representation lasts. If they keep their independence and continue to speak out against "how the game is played", we may have hope. If they soon start playing the game themselves, then it won't matter how many vote or who we elect. This past election is our last hope.
erronis
(14,942 posts)non-violently?
I do think that our little prototype/demo/one-off project that started back in the 18th century has probably lived beyond even its original designers wildest dreams and expectations.
I don't think that the original designers knew how to predict what might need to be changed 100 or 200+ years into the future. They were realists and knew that the world would continue to evolve and new solutions would be needed.
Not being a great reader of history, I just wonder if any of those men (unfortunately) wrote thoughts about how to move to a new model over time. Poor analogy, but sort of like writing this post on punched cards for a mainframe vs. penning them into this world-wide network. The technology is disruptive and companies survived or failed, but the communications stayed similar. (I need to stop - analogies are not a forte.)
trev
(1,480 posts)marylandblue
(12,344 posts)erronis
(14,942 posts)And what the new nation had to overcome is incredible.
Not like the US with it's resolved history of slavery.... </sarcastic>
shanny
(6,709 posts)if only Hillary had been elected instead of rump. imo the downward spiral began 5 decades ago and we have been losing ever since. The 2016 election--with or without Russian interference--was a primal scream. Our government stopped being responsive to Americans long ago, income inequality is worse than it has ever been (anyone else remember--as I do--when we bragged about having the highest standard of living in the world? What do we brag about now? The biggest economy? The biggest military? Yea, us). And the existential crisis of climate change is looming, worse every year...and we are going backwards even while others try to take baby steps forward.
Damn straight we need a whole new system, an equitable, sustainable, non-extractive one. Trying to fix this one is the proverbial rearranging of deck chairs while the boat sinks.
wiggs
(7,788 posts)pecosbob
(7,502 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 8, 2018, 05:34 PM - Edit history (3)
of the administration's criminality. McConnell and Graham knew of the collusion and not only failed to act, but obstructed justice. Nunes obstructed justice. The nations' top law enforcement official directly lied to Congress and the people. If we tolerate this at an official level we cannot claim to observe the rule of law. It is Congress' duty to investigate these officials. Failure to do so normalizes their crimes.
Dems will be in a position to throw light on all the nasty little deeds that have been committed and public opinion will show Ms. Pelosi the proper course of action. Turn the lights on and cockroaches will have to flee.
How can there be justice when Attorney General commits obstruction while freaking recused?
...and then there's Grassley and Garland and Kavanaugh. If I had power of subpeona these people would not go out to pasture gently.
BigmanPigman
(51,430 posts)UpInArms
(51,252 posts)2003 No Child Will Be Taught was an horrific piece of legislation
Teaching to the test is not educating children ... no civics classes ... allowing schools to have teachers who cannot teach subjects because they themselves are not educated... (personal experience) ... the lack of arts and sciences in the curriculum and the worship of sports and clubs is destructive
We have created entire generations who are incapable of critical thinking skills
Pluvious
(4,277 posts)We give them the option of lifelong debt to attend college, or to join the services industry and smile for tips.
Our's is a culture that cares not for our collective Nation's future, but sadly just our individual selves.
UpInArms
(51,252 posts)indenturing themselves into military service ....
Cannot count how many of our young locals have made this choice and returned forever scarred or worse ...
Other option for those not making any of the above choices ... poor personal choices among those usually involving drug use, illegitimate children and prison ...
Sigh
JudyM
(29,122 posts)🔺 Election infrastructure breakdown.
🔺Lack of adequate rules/enforcement against conflicts of interests throughout the government.
🔺Those in power changing rules or outright disregarding them in pursuit of their own ends, and
Legitimization of that abuse of power
🔺Blatant misrepresentations to the public designed to make all of this seem perfectly fine, along with whataboutism justification.
lindysalsagal
(20,440 posts)ecstatic
(32,566 posts)our electoral process first, including dismantling the ineffective electoral college. We also need to take a second look at the configuration of Congress and the Supreme Court. We're quickly headed towards minority rule by the right-wing. That's if we're not already there...
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Republican support is weaker than it looks. They aren't governing well on many levels. On the other hand, they've locked in some political and procedural advantages that we have to overcome.
Assuming we can make a successful case in 2020, there could be a surprising realignment that turns some red states blue and gives us the Presidency and both Houses of Congresses. If we do get that, we would need to start pushing through legislation, no matter what. Step 1 is a new Voting Rights Act including ending the gerrymander.
elocs
(22,474 posts)Given our system as it exists now, how could that ever realistically be done? Let's be real...it's not going to happen.
marylandblue
(12,344 posts)Historically, failing systems that know they are in trouble keep attempting reform until they collapse completely. The Roman Empire in the 3rd Century went through decades of crisis until it reformed itself and bought another 100 years of life.
The Ottoman Empire knew it needed reform in the early 19th Century. It tried for about 100 years, gradually getting weaker, until WW I crushed it. Russia tried some modest half hearted reforms starting in the 1860s and continued feeble attempts until the Revolution.
We don't know if our attempts will be enough, but that never stopped others from trying to the end. And even then, there were always people ready to build the new.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)We have to dedicate ourselves to it because it never ends.