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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsEight myths about Assange
... First myth. The sex crimes allegations are really about silencing WikiLeaks, because the organization has grown too strong.
It's actually humiliating even to have to argue against this bizarre assertion. People who are accused of an offense will likely find the police investigate the matter. Accusing the Swedish police of trying to destroy WikiLeaks is like accusing the U.S. of investigating Dominique Strauss-Kahn in order to close the International Monetary Fund ...
8th myth. Assange has been caught in a sex-trap.
It would undoubtedly be elegant if American agents managed to persuade two Swedish women to go to bed with Assange, but there's probably more evidence suggesting that Osama bin Laden is still alive.
Åtta myter om Assange
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/kolumnister/oisincantwell/article15275385.ab
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backscatter712
(26,357 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)
alittlelark
(19,120 posts)
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)
Marx lever
Andreas Malm om en profet som syns överallt efter finanskrasch och arabisk revolution
http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article12917578.ab
muriel_volestrangler
(105,922 posts)In it’s history, Aftonbladet has waged war on director Ingmar Bergman and has in the past gotten the entire nation of Sweden in diplomatic trouble. While the paper notes that Assange’s decision to write for the paper may seem “strange,” it’s not all that far out there. Plus, this gives Assange the legal protections that come with being employed with an established newspaper, which in Sweden are particularly strong. “It is no coincidence that I chose to start writing in a Swedish newspaper,” he writes, “The Swedish publishing culture and the Swedish legislation has supported (Wikileaks) ever since we started.” He also noted that it “cannot be excluded” that he and Wikileaks would collaborate with the hard news section of the paper to publicize leaks.
According to Assange’s debut interview in the tabloid, Assange took the gig– and has collaborated with other mainstream media sources– because he “promises our sources maximum exposure of what they want out,” and noted that the paper’s and country’s culture was friendly to his political aspirations. As for the Aftonbladet leadership, the tabloid’s editor-in-chief, Jan Helin, wrote an enthusiastic blog entry on Saturday about the hire. “How he writes, I have absolutely no idea,” he admitted, “but he is certainly the most exciting brain in the world right now in terms of freedom of expression issues.” To get an idea, Helin could read the non-fiction account of the international hacker scene Underground (in which Assange has a prologue) or, um, this.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/wikileaks-julian-assange-finally-a-real-journalist-gets-column-in-swedish-tabloid/
egduj
(881 posts)backscatter712
(26,357 posts)As I'm running Chrome, it invokes Translate automagically.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)All I could make out was "We report, you eat".
freshwest
(53,661 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)A little bit of heaven on earth.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Sweden gave him material support:
Julian Assange has said that the servers are located in Sweden (and the other countries) "specifically because those nations offer legal protection to the disclosures made on the site". He talks about the Swedish constitution, which gives the information providers total legal protection.[43] It is forbidden according to Swedish law for any administrative authority to make inquiries about the sources of any type of newspaper.[44] These laws, and the hosting by PRQ, make it difficult for any authorities to take WikiLeaks offline; they place an onus of proof upon any complainant whose suit would circumscribe WikiLeaks' liberty, e.g. its rights to exercise free speech online. Furthermore, "WikiLeaks maintains its own servers at undisclosed locations, keeps no logs and uses military-grade encryption to protect sources and other confidential information." Such arrangements have been called "bulletproof hosting."[40][45]
On 17 August 2010, it was announced that the Swedish Pirate Party would be hosting and managing many of WikiLeaks' new servers. The party donates servers and bandwidth to WikiLeaks without charge. Technicians of the party would make sure that the servers are maintained and working.[46][47]
Daniel Ellsberg supports his work:
The project has drawn comparisons to Daniel Ellsberg's leaking of the Pentagon Papers in 1971.[34] In the United States, the leaking of some documents may be legally protected. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the Constitution guarantees anonymity, at least in the area of political discourse.[34] Author and journalist Whitley Strieber has spoken about the benefits of the WikiLeaks project, noting that "Leaking a government document can mean jail, but jail sentences for this can be fairly short. However, there are many places where it means long incarceration or even death, such as China and parts of Africa and the Middle East."[35]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikileaks
Please translate the aritcle you posted so that I may read it. I'm sure there is no matter of copyright since it will be in English and they don't control google.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)You can translate the article with google or babelfish or whatever yourself, I expect
grantcart
(53,061 posts)struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)backscatter712
(26,357 posts)But it's nothing we haven't already seen.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)"Truths" about Assange and Swedish law are many: it is a hopeless soup cooked to legitimate criticism, exaggerations and pure falsity.
Let us call the myths surrounding a really ordinary court case that threatens to lead to international crisis.
It should be the last to be emphasized that the Swedish legal system could - nay, should! - Conduct by this sad story better.
The investigation went wrong back then a prosecutor confirmed that Assange was charged in his absence. That is, if nothing else, extremely obegåvat to inform a foreign national of an impending arrest and thus give him an opportunity to get on the next plane out of the country.
The police and prosecutors did not fit on to interrogate the suspect in the weeks he patiently remained in Stockholm is not simply to understand.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)
TheManInTheMac
(985 posts)That is really cool. Don't care about the article one way or the other, but that translate thingie is freakin sweet!
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)The sheer scale of rape in the US, during our wars hell - even Sweden (which has some of the worst rape prosecution stats in Europe) and everyone's getting worked up over THIS case?
My heart just breaks for real rape victims who often wait (forever) for justice.
This political stunt is hideous, especially in its treatment of women. Especially the women involved in the Assange case, who've been told by their paternalistic state that they don't really know that they've been "raped"! And that despite the women's adamant desire to NOT press charges, the paternalistic state believes it can supersede the wishes of its own citizens and advance the case FOR them). I can't even imagine being the women involved - if this ever comes to a resolution in Sweden they will be forced to become hostile witnesses (if they can be found. One of them has fled the country and vows to not return) detailing their sex with Assange?!
Ick. Just completely patriarchal and disgusting. I'd bet a million dollars that virtually all of the posters and prosecutors pressing this "rape" case going forward are all despicable, sexist, voyeuristic.
USING women as political pawns, again. So trite, so misogynistic. Disgusting.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)into this case, and admits that he helped restart it after it was dismissed by the first prosecutor, believes that women do not have the right to claim there was no rape and not expect to have someone, such as himself, take a case to court regardless of their opinion. Paternalistic is putting it mildly.
He also believes that all men should have to pay a 'man tax' as all men, regardless of their own behavior, are responsible for the behavior of their fellow men who do rape.
Talk about wacko. But then who else would you turn to if your 'case' had been dismissed to bring it back when it clearly is so weak? No self-respecting attorney would take on such a task. Sort of like how the Republicans here find wackos like James O'Keefe to do their dirty for them because no one with half a brain would engage in the unethical practices O'Keefe/Breitbart are willing to do.
MADem
(135,425 posts)their wives, against the wishes of the women...
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Besides, the successful prosecution rate of domestic abuse cases if the wife won't participate in the trial is pretty bad.
Sweden doesn't even prosecute rape cases where the women are participatory in seeking justice. These women are not. Have you sat in on a rape trial where the women are willing to testify? Its humiliating. I can't imagine how much more humiliating and degrading it would feel if you were forced to go up there and detail every last stroke, vaginal lubrication quality, length of orgasm - the whole works. The women say weren't raped.
Extremely degrading. Yet that's what you think would be "justice"?
MADem
(135,425 posts)The clock keeps ticking? For how long? 12 hours? 24? Consent given once carries on even if a woman wakes up with some asshole on top of her, holding her down? Really? Don't ever say yes, because then you can NEVER say no?
Good grief.
Sleeping people cannot give consent.
Incredible, how you can ignore that key point.
Sweden has a horrible record on prosecuting rape cases--even they admit that. For all of the "Sexy Swedish Ladies" hoop-la that has circled the globe from the 1950s and beyond, apparently they've a way to go before those "Sexy Swedish Ladies" get equal treatment under the law.
Then, you turn around and tell me all about "humiliation" and how "degrading" this might be (like you know how the Swedes handle these things--and I am quite certain you do not) on the other hand, while in the first instance you insist that the women are not complaining.
And then, you say that successful prosecution of domestic abuse is "pretty bad" if the wife won't participate--like that's an EXCUSE for a policeman to not seek justice when following up on a complaint?
You're all over the road, here. The excuses are flying thick and fast.
I find it astounding how it is possible here on DU to be so extra-ordinarily situational...if the guy in this story was Lyin' Ryan, you and everyone else on the Assange cheerleading squad would be calling for his still beating heart to be ripped from his chest and delivered to the victims on a silver platter.
But hey, it's Assange--and those women aren't complaining, and besides, they're tramps who were in it for a buck, in between checks they were getting from the CIA..... 
And hey, it wasn't one of those "legitimate rapes" now, was it?
What would be "justice" in this case is if Assange answers the charges made in Sweden against him. If he can lawyer his way out of it, well, there ya go. But to run around with his hair on fire making every excuse in the book--to include "the boogie man is gonna get me"-- to avoid answering for his shameful behavior is just not believable.
We'll see how he enjoys his cell in the Ecuadoran Embassy, for as long as Correa wants to feed and shelter him. I'm betting he'd have better digs in a Swedish prison. At least he'd get some fresh air on occasion--you won't find much of that in a ground floor flat in Knightsbridge.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)on the head of the penis and not on the entire shaft, plus the woman goes out to get you breakfast and leaves you alone in her flat between sessions, there's grounds to assume she wouldn't mind if you woke her up with sex.
just a guess.
Not to mention that the first day she met you (two days before the night of sex in question) she took you to her workplace (a museum) and allowed you to suck her breasts, unzip her pants, etc etc in the museum cinema *with her colleagues* seated in the audience as well.
The third time they had sex that night:
"They had sex again and she discovered he'd put the condom only over the head of his penis but she let it be."
by her own testimony, the 4th & final time that night/morning they had sex:
"They fell asleep and she woke by feeling him penetrate her. She immediately asked 'are you wearing anything' and he answered 'you'. She told him 'you better not have HIV' and he replied 'of course not'. She felt it was too late. He was already inside her and she let him continue. She couldn't be bothered telling him again. She'd been nagging about condoms all night long."
After that she told him he'd have to pay off her student loans if she got pregnant and they joked about naming the baby 'afghanistan'. She took him to the station and asked him if he was going to call her again.
http://rixstep.com/1/20110131,00.shtml
MADem
(135,425 posts)Asking permission is too difficult in these situations?
I don't think it's too much to expect.
No means no--hell, who doesn't know that, these days? Who, in this day and age of absolute rights with regard to an individual's personal integrity, "assumes" anything, particularly with someone one has known for mere hours or days? Assange is young enough to understand these things--he grew up in that sort of environment, where children were taught that no one had permission to touch their private places. It's not like he's a sixty year old guy who didn't have the benefit of all that classroom empowerment they started teaching the kids in the seventies and eighties. He KNEW better.
From your source:
When she talked with her friends afterwards she understood she was the victim of a crime. She went into Danderyd hospital and went from there to the Söder hospital. There she was examined and they even took samples with a so-called 'rape kit'.
If he's so blatantly innocent, and it's so obvious to you that he is, then all he has to do is go clear his name. Playing a "discredit the victims" game just isn't cutting it with me.
He's also playing "clueless about condoms" in this interview, so I'm inclined to disbelieve the guy, frankly:
http://rixstep.com/1/20110130,01.shtml
He needs to go answer the charges, and stop pretending that this is all about some grand plan to send him to Gitmo. It's not. It's about him being a sexual asshole at a MINIMUM, and perhaps much worse.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)talking to her 'friends'? is that typical when one's been 'raped'?
who were these 'friends'?
looks like 'they' were anna ardin, political secretary for the 'brotherhood' faction of the social democratic party and political gadfly, whom she allegedly met the same day she met assange...
and where is ms W? ardin has been all over the media but "w" has vanished into a black hole after leaving the police station without signing the statement she gave to police.
MADem
(135,425 posts)you display a disturbingly proud ignorance of the topic of rape and sexual abuse.
And why are you putting those "scary quotes" around "friends?" Many people have them--they're common for "normal" (scary quotes) people. If you find them strange, perhaps that's your "issue?"
Assange has a record of inappropriateness with women--he's the one with the sketchy record, not these women you're busily crafting a Honey Trap accusation around with spurious links drafted by Friends of Julian.
I won't even go into his pathetic "Harry Harrison" persona--this is not the normal rambling of an adult male: http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2010/12/does_julian_ass.php Even the pictures are hubris laden; the guy looks like a pathetic poseur.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/awesomer/julian-assanges-ok-cupid-profile
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2010/12/julian_assanges.php
What 36 year old adult tries to get a date with lines like:
Do not write to me if you are timid. I am too busy. Write to me if you are brave.
I could adapt to anything except the loss of female company and carbon.
I am DANGER, ACHTUNG, and ??????????????!
I like women from countries that have sustained political turmoil.
In the "Test" section, Assange is identified as a "Strong Democrat," 87% slut, 87% dominating and much more. He also scored 39% on the Asperger's test, for whatever that's worth.
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2010/12/more_fun_with_j.php
Julian Assange, adult male, didn't know how to take "NO" from a nineteen year old girl. He's had years to figure out that NO MEANS NO--he didn't get it then, and it certainly appears that he doesn't get it now.
http://gawker.com/5714043/the-creepy-lovesick-emails-of-julian-assange
At the end of the day, after all of the whinging and crying over this inappropriate loser, this is the result--Julian Assange is a prisoner, and his jailers are the very accommodating Ecuadoreans, who will allow him to stay with them for "centuries"--so they say, now: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/aug/23/julian-assange-ecuador-embassy Never mind that they've been known to change their minds on those sorts of things; be that as it may, he's safe in Knightsbridge for now!
If you really wanted to get "conspiratorial," (scary quotes) why not assume that Correa has entered into a secret deal with Obama, the UK, and Sweden, to keep the guy on ice, while feeding his paranoia? After all, despite Correa's whining about the US, America gives Ecuador some VERY favorable trade perks, and is responsible for an enormous amount of their GDP every year. Ecuador uses the US dollar as their currency--not as a benchmark for their currency, but as their ACTUAL currency--they can't even bother to print their own. You pay for your coffee and donut and hotel room and rental car with greenbacks down that way.
This kind of scenario is just the ticket, and far less complex than evil Jew hating lesbian anti-Castro CIA agents! And really, what a win-win-win! USA and UK and other countries who don't like their diplomatic cables leaked have Assange on ice, the Swedes are getting a jail sentence without even bothering with the annoyance and expense of an extradition and a trial, and the Ecuadoran thug who calls himself the President is getting an opportunity to out-Chavez Chavez as the nose tweaker of empire nations (while doing several of those very nations an enormous favour of sorts, on the sly!).
The "secret deal" theory is every bit as likely as the Evil Anti-Semite, Anti-Commie Lesbian CIA theory. And for those who love conspiracies, that one is much more straightforward and has a much more "believable" smell to it.
Why not just look at the facts? This guy has a history of inappropriate dealings with women, an immature and selfish outlook towards them, and that attitude resulted in some bad behavior in Sweden. But hey--that's too obvious, so clearly it cannot POSSIBLY be true!
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)THE HORROR! and right after SHARING BREAKFAST!!!
not to mention the pants-down in the projection room at her WORKPLACE with her COWORKERS in attendance two days earlier.
Iraq vets have got nothing on "Ms W". NOTHING, YOU HEAR ME????
Where has she been, btw?
"Ms A," A POLITICAL OFFICER OF THE 'BROTHERHOOD' FACTION OF THE SWEDISH SOCIAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY has been all over the news.
But 'ms w' the supposed rape victim, promptly disappeared (without signing her police statement) once she heard assange was arrested.
rumor is she quit her 'job' and moved house.
MADem
(135,425 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)definitely not just some random 'victim'.
MADem
(135,425 posts)and trying to tell me that whatever she might have said means she couldn't be raped by a weirdo who has zero social skills and a problem with taking no for an answer who has previously behaved in stalker-ish fashion (and that is well documented on the web and in this thread--and it's in ENGLISH, too--as the majority of the world doesn't read Swedish, as I'm sure you well know).
I think you're trying WAY too hard. You're starting to appear, well, silly.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)and they actually speak swedish there, not english.
MADem
(135,425 posts)translation. PDFs don't translate automatically.
In any event, I fail to see how ANYTHING anyone did or said seven years ago is an automatic disqualifier to their rape by a man with a documented (in English) history of inappropriate conduct with women.
Sorry, you failed that one. BIG TIME, as Dick would say. You must be exhausted with all the digging you're doing--let us know when you reach the other side of the earth.
treestar
(82,383 posts)because the accused got the accuser to say she wants to drop the charges?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)But you knew that.
Nobody had to force these women to "drop the charges". They never were interested in charges in the first place. The first investigator they spoke with also felt there was nothing there to charge Julian Assange with either.
It was only after Wikileaks exposed the diplomatic cables and the war crimes by the US that the allegations (by the Swedish state by the way, not the women themselves) were brought out.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Are you such a misogynist that you cannot think they really could complain?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)embarrassing to the US.
The women themselves said they did not want charges, it was not rape.
I'm not the misogynist one here. The Swedish state is - by declaring that they get to strip the women of their own agency and authority to determine the status of their sexual experiences.
The women came to request that the authorities help them get Assange get tested for HIV. That's it. The initial investigator found no sign of sexual impropriety.
The allegations only came back after Wikileaks.
But you know all this. Its been said at least 50 times on pretty much every Julian Assange thread you've been involved in...
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)He says they're disappointed and frustrated with his decision to seek asylum rather than cooperating with the investigation. But you know better, right?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jun/20/julian-assange-asylum-tragedy-lawyer
Julian Assange's decision to seek asylum in Ecuador is "a tragedy" for the two women who have accused him of sexual assault in Sweden, their lawyer has said.
Claes Borgström, who represents the two unnamed women with whom the WikiLeaks founder had sexual relations in Stockholm in August 2010, told the Guardian the women were frustrated and disappointed by Assange's decision to seek asylum rather than face investigation in Sweden over claims of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion.
"They are disappointed, but they are getting used to this by now," said Borgström, who has represented the women throughout Assange's sequence of appeals against extradition in the British courts.
"They know that all they can do is wait. I have told them I am not sure, but I think he will still be extradited … it is a tragedy for the women. I don't know how long it will take for him to be extradited now. Victims want to put these things behind them in order to be able to get on with their lives. The tragedy is that he doesn't take his responsibility. He should have come to Sweden."
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Swedish authorities to question him in the UK including in the Ecuadorian Embassy.
The Swedish government should have taken him up on this.
Do you think that the British government would normally extradite a suspect who has not been charged on such a claim? I have difficulty believing that victims of violent rapes have so much attention paid to their claims when the alleged perpetrator has to be extradited to stand trial. If this was rape, it was not a violent rape. There is a video on it here on DU. I watched the first part. I think the rape charges would be very difficult to prove. Looks like a pretext to me.
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)consent. The previous night they'd argued because she insisted he use a condom, but that morning he penetrated her without her consent and without the condom he knew she'd require -- if she'd been awake when he entered her.
This is rape, a serious crime, whether it sounds violent enough to you or not. And Europe, including Britain, has an extradition treaty that applied in this case -- Assange went through the courts with his appeals.
Most rape cases are difficult to prove. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be investigated or prosecuted.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)taint to this case that I do not believe that there could be a fair trial or anything approaching it. And I think that it should not be attempted. Assange has no doubt been punished enough for this offense. He was, after all in the bed of the alleged victim and there with her consent. Further, you are describing an accusation and not necessarily facts. There is no objective, physical evidence and no matter how the judge decides, he will be accused of corruption. Best to let the charges on this claim drop. It is my understanding that Assange took the HIV test that was requested of him and that there is no problem whether the charges are true or not. Let sleeping dogs lie.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)2 or 3 times that night, once with the condom on the head of his penis only, not properly placed over his entire penis. Without complaint from her per her own testimony.
Chronology:
1. She saw him on TV and had kind of a 'groupie' reaction, found out he was giving a lecture and called the sponsors to see if she could volunteer. The person she spoke to, coincidentally enough, was WOMAN A, the other 'victim'. According to her (WOMAN W) no one got back to her about volunteering but she went to the lecture anyway.
2. At the lecture WOMAN A asked her to go buy a computer cable for Assange (with her own money, apparently). Which she did, as she'd come more than an hour early for some reason.
3. She stayed after to talk to assange, wound up going to lunch with everyone, then going with assange and someone else to buy him more computer stuff (she pays again). then she invited assange to the museum where she worked. By now there was flirtation on his side (and one would assume on hers).
4. They went to the museum, then to the museum cinema, where they watched a film and:
"In the darkness of the cinema he started kissing her. A few latecomers arrived and sat behind them and so they moved to a row at the back. Julian continued kissing her, touched her breasts under her jumper, undid her bra, unbuttoned her pants, caressed her buttocks, and sucked her nipples. He muttered about the armrest being in the way. She was sitting in his lap when the lights went on and he tried to put her bra back on. She thought it embarrassing to sit there in view of her colleagues who she knew could have seen it all."
She's getting naked AT HER WORKPLACE on the first day she met the guy, for christ's sake.
5. He has to go to some event and they part. "She asked him if they'd meet again. He said of course they would, they'd meet after the crayfish party." He leaves a message on her phone that night telling her to call him. She calls him at 23:15 and says she wants to go to bed. He's apparently miffed, for she calls him twice the next day and he doesn't answer.
6. Monday she tells her workmates he didn't return her calls. Her workmates tell her "Julian felt dumped and therefore hadn't rung back so that the ball was in her court."
(One has to ask, how do her workmates know this? Very small world.)
7. They eventually get together that evening (Mon night) & she brings him back to her flat, paying his transportation costs herself ($10).
8. They fool around a long time but he can't maintain an erection. He wants to sleep and she feels rejected. He sleeps and she texts her friends.
9. "She must have fallen asleep for later she woke up and they had sex (1). She'd earlier got the condoms and put them on the floor by the bed. He reluctantly agreed to use a condom even if he muttered something about preferring her to latex." They fall asleep again.
10. "They fell asleep and when they woke up they could have had sex again (2), she's not really sure."
11. She gives him juice and water and goes out to get him breakfast (reluctantly, according to her, as she says she didn't want to leave him alone in her flat). "When she returned she served him oatmeal, milk, and juice. She'd already eaten before he woke up and spoken with a friend on the phone."
12. "They had sex again (3) and she discovered he'd put the condom only over the head of his penis but she let it be."
13. "They fell asleep and she woke by feeling him penetrate her. (4) She immediately asked 'are you wearing anything' and he answered 'you'. She told him 'you better not have HIV' and he replied 'of course not'. She felt it was too late. He was already inside her and she let him continue. She couldn't be bothered telling him again. She'd been nagging about condoms all night long."
14. "She told him what happens if she gets pregnant. He replied that Sweden was a good country for raising children. She told him jokingly that if she got pregnant then he'd have to pay her student loans. On the train to Enköping he'd told her he'd slept in Anna Ardin's bed after the crayfish party. She asked if he'd had sex with Anna but he said Anna liked girls, she was lesbian. But now she knows he did the same thing with Anna. She asked him how many times he'd had sex but he said he hadn't counted. He also said he'd had a HIV test three months earlier and he'd had sex with a girl afterwards and that girl had also taken a HIV test and wasn't infected. She said sarcastic things to him in a joking tone. She thinks she got the idea of taking the drama out of what had happened, he in turn didn't seem to care. When he found out how big her student loan was he said if he paid her so much money she'd have to give birth to the baby. They joked that they'd name the baby Afghanistan."
15. "Then they rode her bicycle to the train station. She paid his ticket to Stockholm. Before they parted he told her to keep her phone on. She asked if he'd ring her and he said he would."
http://rixstep.com/1/20110131,00.shtml
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)pnwmom
(110,233 posts)She said she woke up to find him on her and in her and when he was done, she realized he wasn't wearing the condom she'd insisted on. Her consent had been conditional on using a condom and since he didn't, he didn't have her consent.
I agree with Sweden and England that she was describing rape, whether or not she used that word. When a woman refuses consent, it's rape.
By the way, the fact that the women are reluctant to use that word works against the allegation that they were both some kind of secret spies, sent by the US to incriminate Assange. He's trying to have it both ways.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Who are you to define it for her?
If she doesn't believe its rape, why do you get to supersede her very own authority? When you take away a woman's right to make decisions regarding her own bodily integrity then you are just as harmful as Rethugs who don't believe women get to decide their own reproductive choices. When the STATE gets to define your own sexual experiences over your own objections then something's very wrong there.
Who made you the arbiter of consensual sex? If two people engaged in the practice agree its not rape, then you don't get to interject your opinion and tell them differently. My mother believes anything but the missionary position is rape - even between married spouses. She's a college educated, church going, former employee of a major police department. Do you really think its appropriate for anyone other than the two people involved to make decisions for them on what's "rape" or not?
The women involved did NOT want charges pressed. The state is doing it "for them". Right. And I've got a bridge to sell you....
Have you ever been involved in a rape trial? Its humiliating. Its all vaginal lubrication, licking anus', positions, depth of penetration, loud noises, and worse. Do you think making the women involved participate in some kind of witch hunt show trial, detailing all of the salacious details of their sex life with Assange, is actually progressive? Against their express desires?
Sweden is trying to slut shame Assange and these women. Its disgusting voyeurism at the behest of the US. Surely we're better than this.
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)according to whether the woman uses the term "rape" or not.
This isn't about my "right." It's about the elements of Sweden's rape law and whether or not her story includes those elements.
You still haven't explained how those women could both be spies out to get Assange with false charges and consenting women being slut shamed by Sweden.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)in either the US or Sweden. I don't care what "law" you want to invoke or crime you think is committed. Even DV is impossible to prosecute once the theoretically injured party refuses to go forward. Sweden is pushing a case in defiance of the wishes of the women involved. All parties agree its not rape.
At that point, the case isn't a reality anymore. A state that persists in this disregarding the wishes of the women involved is acting in the most grotesque misogynistic way. They are essentially "forcing" a woman to court even in the face of her own self-determination.
It's not about any women's rights but a patriarchal state getting into the middle of the bedroom between two consenting adults.
As for your last sentence, I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you projecting something silly?
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Do you believe its okay for women to have to give up their own authority as to their sexual experiences and let the state decide for them?
Are you okay with the US government telling you whether your last bout of sex was legal or not? And deciding that it's illegal and prosecuting your partner over your objection?
Do you think women should be okay with relinquishing their rights to self-determine their own sexual decisions? Or is a paternalistic, patriarchal state that decides these things for you okay?
Because ultimately the case against Assange rests on these questions.
The women in these cases have said there's been no rape. They are going to be subjected to a rape trial (and the attendant horrors) against their will. Its bad enough when women are motivated to do this. Its misogynistic voyeuristic sick to force anyone to do this unwillingly.
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)would meet the Swedish and the British definition of rape. If that isn't the colloquial definition she held, that doesn't change the particulars she described.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Even though she says no rape, the state gets to supersede her own determination? And gets to put HER consensual sex on trial?
That's patriarchy of the worst sort! It's basically the same position as the Rethugs who say the government gets some say in women's reproductive choices.
What other sorts of activities do you think the government should be involved in adjudicating as rape between consenting adults? BDSM? How about erotic asphyxiation? Loud noises? Role playing where the woman dominates? Spanking is basically physical assault, can the state bring charges? Are you the arbiter, or do we get to pick someone who LIKES spanking?
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)What I read was that she refused to have sex without a condom, but that she woke up to find him inside her without a condom. If that is correct, then the sex that morning wasn't consensual (as opposed to the night before, which was with a condom and was consensual.) She woke up to find him inside her, so she hadn't given her permission; and he wasn't wearing a condom, even though she'd insisted on one the night before.
Bodhi BloodWave
(2,346 posts)if you consented to sex at one time(with conditions) then consent still applies at a later time with no conditions, and she doesn't even have to be awake at the time.
Personally i find that idea mind boggling
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)From Britain's The Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jun/20/julian-assange-asylum-tragedy-lawyer
Julian Assange's decision to seek asylum in Ecuador is "a tragedy" for the two women who have accused him of sexual assault in Sweden, their lawyer has said.
Claes Borgström, who represents the two unnamed women with whom the WikiLeaks founder had sexual relations in Stockholm in August 2010, told the Guardian the women were frustrated and disappointed by Assange's decision to seek asylum rather than face investigation in Sweden over claims of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion.
"They are disappointed, but they are getting used to this by now," said Borgström, who has represented the women throughout Assange's sequence of appeals against extradition in the British courts.
"They know that all they can do is wait. I have told them I am not sure, but I think he will still be extradited … it is a tragedy for the women. I don't know how long it will take for him to be extradited now. Victims want to put these things behind them in order to be able to get on with their lives. The tragedy is that he doesn't take his responsibility. He should have come to Sweden."
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I can't blame them.
All's Sweden has to do is say they won't extradite Assange to the US. Sweden could end this today if they wanted.
AUSTRALIAN diplomats have no doubt the United States is intent on pursuing Julian Assange, Foreign Affairs and Trade Department documents obtained by the Herald show.
This is at odds with comments by the Foreign Affairs Minister, Bob Carr, who has dismissed suggestions the US plans to eventually extradite Assange on charges arising from WikiLeaks obtaining leaked US military and diplomatic documents.
The Australian embassy in Washington has been tracking a US espionage investigation targeting the WikiLeaks publisher for more than 18 months.
The declassified diplomatic cables, released under freedom of information legislation, show Australia's ambassador, the former Labor leader Kim Beazley, has made high level representations to the US government asking for advance warning of any moves to prosecute Assange.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/us-intends-to-chase-assange-cables-show-20120817-24e1l.html#ixzz240Svncy0
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)What they want to be ended is his avoidance of the authorities.
"the women were frustrated and disappointed by Assange's decision to seek asylum rather than face investigation in Sweden over claims of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion."
Chan790
(20,176 posts)to fit the circumstances as you wish them to be rather than they really are; it's gone well beyond pretzel-logic at this point.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)It was published in Swedish and has been virtually ignored by western media. Here's a snippet from the article
"One of two women involved told Aftonbladet in an interview published today that she had never intended Assange to be charged with rape. She was quoted as saying: “It is quite wrong that we were afraid of him. He is not violent and I do not feel threatened by him.”
Speaking anonymously, she said each had had voluntary relations with Assange: “The responsibility for what happened to me and the other girl lies with a man who had attitude problems with women.”
Sources close to the woman said that issues arose during the relationships about Assange’s willingness to use condoms."
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)according to her description of his behavior, has attitude problems with women.
On edit: also, just because a woman consents to have sex one day, with a condom, doesn't give a man a free pass forever. If the facts are as she described them, that she woke up the next day to find him on her and in her, and without a condom -- even though he knew she would insist on one -- then that would constitute rape.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7652935.ab
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)shaft -- with no complaint.
and that she woke up with plenty of time to say "are you wearing anything? you better not have hiv" but not to say "stop," apparently.
after that they joked about their future child, 'afghanistan'.
she went with him to the station and asked him if he was going to call her again.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)individual who is involved in liberal politics, they feign outrage about the person's sex life -- an affair, nude pictures on the internet, something, always something sexual.
\I think it is a psy-ops technique. They don't have to kill the person. They just destroy the willingness of people to say that they think highly of him (or her).
People are taught as small children to be very ashamed of sexual matters. Only very mature people overcome that shame and accept themselves.
I have been watching this. Face it. Sex is all over TV, the movies, the internet. It is something we hate and enjoy, fear and cannot resist all our lives. Sex and love are closely intertwined. We humans need physical contact. And there is a thin line between asexual and sexual contact.
Therefore, on a deep, emotional, psychological level, we all have a lot of conflicts about the behavior of others and of ourselves in this area. We hide things about our sexual feelings even from ourselves. That makes us vulnerable. And when we feel vulnerable we are weak and lack courage. That is why it was torture for the American soldiers at Abu Ghraib to ridicule the prisoners about their sexuality.
One way to destroy the willingness of people to stand up for an underdog or to admit to liking a person who may be your political or social rival is to associate shameful sexual behavior with that person. Kids in early adolescence, for example, will tease a bright kid about "liking" the class nerd or the ugly girl. And the classic case is picking on the effeminate boy or the masculine girl or even accusing someone of being a sissy or a lesbian for a cruel laugh. Takes courage and unusual self-confidence on the part of another teenager to defend the kid being taunted about his or her sexuality. Same for adults.
As a woman, I am particularly aware of this. When I reached the age of 50 and began to "lose my looks," or at least feel that I did, I had a sense on the one hand of liberation and on the other of sadness for the loss of a youthful appearance.
The liberation was the interesting emotion and the wonderful gift. It was the result of no longer being viewed primarily as a sex object by half of the human race.
So, the "shame on you" for being a sexually attractive/attracted person card no longer is played against me or other women of my age. That is why I am so interested in what I think may be the either instinctive or strategic and purposeful use of sex scandals to cause us to feel revulsion about certain people who are prominent in politics.
I think that the Swedish sex charges against Assange are rather contrived. Technically there may have been a rape. But it would be very difficult to prove that rape occurred. I think this is an attempt to destroy Assange by shaming him and anyone who defends his publication of information embarrassing to our government. It is psy-ops in my opinion.
Sorry this is long-winded, but I am just now figuring out this psy-ops angle. It is what has been bothering me about a number of situations like this from Spitzer to Edwards to Wiener to some of the hypocritical Republicans.
Oddly enough, behavior that damages millions of people, behavior like war and all the killings it involves, like depriving people of healthcare, like permitting people to subsist without a roof over their heads, like the horrible conduct of the bankers (MF Global comes to mind) does not reach that deep psychological nerve in us that causes us to look at it again and again and feel revulsion. But a juicy sex scandal -- every time. It's like a conditioned reflex.
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)Why do you think you can speak for them? They want him to face investigation, according to their attorney.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jun/20/julian-assange-asylum-tragedy-lawyer
Julian Assange's decision to seek asylum in Ecuador is "a tragedy" for the two women who have accused him of sexual assault in Sweden, their lawyer has said.
Claes Borgström, who represents the two unnamed women with whom the WikiLeaks founder had sexual relations in Stockholm in August 2010, told the Guardian the women were frustrated and disappointed by Assange's decision to seek asylum rather than face investigation in Sweden over claims of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion.
"They are disappointed, but they are getting used to this by now," said Borgström, who has represented the women throughout Assange's sequence of appeals against extradition in the British courts.
"They know that all they can do is wait. I have told them I am not sure, but I think he will still be extradited … it is a tragedy for the women. I don't know how long it will take for him to be extradited now. Victims want to put these things behind them in order to be able to get on with their lives. The tragedy is that he doesn't take his responsibility. He should have come to Sweden."
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)I can't blame them.
All's Sweden has to do is say they won't extradite Assange to the US. Sweden could end this today if they wanted.
AUSTRALIAN diplomats have no doubt the United States is intent on pursuing Julian Assange, Foreign Affairs and Trade Department documents obtained by the Herald show.
This is at odds with comments by the Foreign Affairs Minister, Bob Carr, who has dismissed suggestions the US plans to eventually extradite Assange on charges arising from WikiLeaks obtaining leaked US military and diplomatic documents.
The Australian embassy in Washington has been tracking a US espionage investigation targeting the WikiLeaks publisher for more than 18 months.
The declassified diplomatic cables, released under freedom of information legislation, show Australia's ambassador, the former Labor leader Kim Beazley, has made high level representations to the US government asking for advance warning of any moves to prosecute Assange.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/us-intends-to-chase-assange-cables-show-20120817-24e1l.html#ixzz240Svncy0
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)not just put this behind them without doing anything.
"the women were frustrated and disappointed by Assange's decision to seek asylum rather than face investigation in Sweden over claims of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion."
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)actually "the women's lawyer."
The following is an excerpt from Hannes Råstam's coming book 'Thomas Quick: Creating a Serial Killer'. The book is due out this spring. Much of the book will focus on the part Claes Borgström played in this the biggest judicial scandal ever in Sweden save for the current case of Julian Assange. Borgström did virtually nothing for six years, let his client be convicted of murder on no evidence whatsoever in four cases, and ended up billing the government for over one half million dollars (SEK 5 million).
http://rixstep.com/2/1/20120206,00.shtml
Thomas Quick is actually Sture Ragnar Bergwall. His name was changed in 2002 after a series of trials over an eight year period (1994 - 2001) involving Claes Borgström.
The trials involved eight (8) murders Quick confessed to. The verdicts in the trials have since been overturned as there was no evidence whatsoever and the only witness was Quick himself.
Quick has a history of mental illness and has repeatedly been hospitalised in mental institutions. He was called 'The Säter Man' in the media, a reference to the Säter hospital that had taken care of him.
Quick withdrew his previous testimony in a documentary sent in Swedish national television in December 2008. Prosector Eva Finné was called in to review the case. Finné threw out the verdict and things started unraveling for certain individuals...
Claes Borgström did not want to respond to the criticism directed at him for his representation of Thomas Quick but he'll get another chance. And how will the Swedish bar association rule that a defence solicitor should behave when a mentally ill client wants to confess to crimes he's not committed?
http://rixstep.com/2/1/20101122,02.shtml
lordsummerisle
(4,653 posts)
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Fox News in the U.S. could have come up with double or more.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)describes it as an "independent social-democratic newspaper" ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftonbladet
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)From your link.
Ha-Ha!
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Have you considered the cooking forum? 'Cause I think we've seen pretty much everything you have to offer concerning Assange, and I'm interested in whether you have a good recipe for crullers.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)they believe Sweden is a country whose criminal justice system is controlled by the US: maybe it's fair to hear another point-of-view
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I expected delicious pastry!
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)Det här behövs för ca 40 st:
50 g smör eller margarin
4 äggulor
4 msk florsocker
1 msk konjak
rivet skal av 1/2 citron
2 1/2 dl vetemjöl
Fritering: kokosfett eller matolja
Gör så här
1. Smält matfettet till smeten och låt det svalna ~snip~
http://www.hemmetsjournal.se/mat/Klenater/recept-1457
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)(ixnay on the ookingcay oupgray!) That's my refuge from GD!
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)One of the prosecutors, in 2001 as a govt justice minister, had approved the rendition of two people to Egypt for US to torture. The other prosecutor has Karl Rove as a consultant. On and on.
Naomi Wolf has a great article on how weak Sweden's case is. In fact, its so weak one has to wonder whether they'll actually bother putting Assange on trial before turning him over to US for disappearing.
russspeakeasy
(6,539 posts)the poster is here to get our comments, just to show his/her opinion, no matter how stupid it is.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)russspeakeasy
(6,539 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Lobbyist is my guess.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)...even if the accusation is true. 
Best to learn the art of the oblique insinuation, point a few things out, and let your fellow readers make their own conclusions.
Still, the speculation could be fun. What do you think? You suggested lobbyist. What about Agent Mike from some alphabet soup agency? Some other law-enforcement or intelligence agency? Or a contractor working for some shadowy "security" company like Blackwater/Xe/Academi? Or from a right-wing think tank? Maybe just a Freeper? Usually, the freepers aren't so persistent.
But I'm not supposed to make such speculations - the hosts already told me to take any discussion of potential astroturfing/50 Cent Party tactics/consensus-redirection-tactics/psy-ops to Creative Speculation. Didn't you know? Astroturfing does not exist on DU. COINTELPRO manipulations don't happen on DU. That's just a conspiracy theory. And suggesting that it does exist could get your posts hidden, or get you PPR'd.
So I'd better not say it!
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)I learn somethimg new here every day! My apologies to OP for accusing him of posting RW talking points given to him. I'm sure they were his own original RW thoughts.
Whats funny, is 65K posts in 8 years is over 8000 posts/year. Thats an awful lot of posts. Must have a really good internet connection at work.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)There are no astroturfers on DU.
There are no astroturfers on DU.
There are no astroturfers on DU.
There are no astroturfers on DU.
There are no astroturfers on DU.
I suppose I'll have to write this a hundred times using Dolores Umbridge's blood quill to appease the juries and the mods once the alert-fest begins in earnest...
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)backscatter712
(26,357 posts)HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)That makes the 8000 a year posters look like pikers. I just don't see how they have the time. Pretty weird that. Or not.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Of course there are no astroturfers on DU. Maybe they just aren't normal, or something.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Odd, I would think their business would suffer from posting 40x a day on a discussion board. I just get the head shakes thinkin' about it.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)If someones small busines was to post on message boards, the you might say business was booming.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Thank you
You are GOOD Wagon.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)That does not preclude me having other opinions or things I want to have evolve in the future.
Many OPs on the board at times leave one wondering what the intent is. There are very strong feelings either way on this, but I am somewhat neutral.
Some claim Wikileaks is a fabrication of TPTB to divert attention, and things will go as they intend regardless. They want us to adopt a conspiracy mentality to get us to leave the political sphere to other more attention getting movements.
At that point, we cede the ground to the fundies and Reich wingers, who are not diverted at all, they have their media idols in place. I'm still working on this in my own head, using my own logic.
You may have noted the name Kristinn Hrafnsson on the Wikileaks entry in Wikipedia that I cited on this thread:
He has worked at various newspapers in Iceland and hosted the television programme Kompás on the Icelandic channel Stöð 2, where he and his team often exposed criminal activity and corruption in high places. In February 2009, while investigating the connection between Iceland's Kaupthing Bank and Robert Tchenguiz, the programme was taken off air and Kristinn and his crew were sacked.[3]
Shortly thereafter, Kristinn was hired by RÚV, the Icelandic National Broadcasting Service. In August 2009, he was working on a story about Kaupthing's loan book which had just been published on the WikiLeaks webpage, when the bank got a gag order issued by the Reykjavik sheriff's office, banning RÚV from reporting on the loan book, which could be publicly accessed online via WikiLeaks.[4] The prohibition order was withdrawn later.[5]
Kristinn was fired from RÚV in July 2010[6] and has since worked as an independent journalist, collaborating with WikiLeaks and stepping up as the organisation's spokesman as its founder, Julian Assange, was forced to retreat from the limelight due to persistent legal litigations. He called the December 2010 attacks upon Wikileaks a "privatisation of censorship".[7] In 2012, in his quality of Wikileaks spokesman he defended the organization on the website of the Swedish Television against what he defined as a smear campaign by the Swedish tabloid Expressen. [8]
I definitely approve of disclosure and believe most Americans do as well, after we voted in people to write the FOIA. In all cases, the status quo resists, because those working in it are so invested in the system, that they don't know where their job ends and feel under threat. If the status quo had not resisted in the days of the Pentagon Papers, we would not have several freedoms we have now in reaction to them.
It seems that Wikileaks is exploring a different level of disclosure than we are currently used to working with, using a method which could be called the rats in the walls (of the internet) chewing the electrical wires and causing things to happen. Probably not the best example, but it must have felt that way in the Bush years when TPTB were faced with the worldwide opposition to the PNAC.
So they began scrubbing the net and have not stopped, and have employed bots and other methods to stop the flow of information. Their main tool now to suppress is privatization, and we were always dealing with this.
Corporations always controlled the majority of the communications, except those our of educational facilities. The forces of privatization pulled the rug out from under the older liberal public institutions. The Wikileaks story is one of playing close to the wire of opposing not only formal governments, which are increasingly privatized in all functions, but the same corporations that allowed our voices to be heard.
We have been playing in the field they owned. Period. They can shut it off when they wish, that has always been the case. So we speak at their sufferance. With a global economy, they can pick us off one country at a time. The global nature of Occupy is a strength, but no greater than the IWW or other such organizations once were. They are no longer powerful, sad to say.
Assange and friends found a hole with their knowledge and went with it. Some can get outraged at the actions of those countries that bowed to those private interests that wanted him stopped. Those private interests, in the eyes of some, have taken over so much of the operation of our economy and government that the corporations are the mater, not the elected government.
So we seek for Wikileaks to free us, and it is true, that throughout history when there is more knowledge, there are revolutions of one kind or another. We want this because of our frustration with the reality presented us by corporate media did not match the real life scenes we knew, and it has hurt us terribly. We are working to escape the bonds of a global corporate state or states supported and created by those who feel it is the only way to survive..
But I would not call it a state in the way that we commonly think of government. When I hear someone going after the government, my eyes glaze over, they are living in Reagan land. This is not a version of 1984 with an all powerful government, but more text book fascism we are confronting in the world.
Democratic government was our middle man that stood between us and these interests. They tell us all the time to hate it and seek to make it the ultimate bogeyman, like Glen Beck does. But break it or remove it and then deal with them directly, is what they're selling us and it will create the neo-feudalism. So they pay these people to get us to want to abandon it. We can do so and let them have their way, if we think we will be more free. But anyone who knows what the days of the company store really were, knows better.
The changes made by Wikileaks and Assange are hard to quantify except in terms of media stories. The Arab Spring entered the summer and not worked out as expected, no more than the heart breaking Tienanmen Square protests of 1989 did.
Still, I want Assange to go to Ecuador and see if he can help a sense of global consciousness (I'm embarrassed at the term, it's been so overused) to move us to what we have to become to survive.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)here is my obligatory, not a fan of Assange, qualifier.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)Don't bother - it's nothing but a FOX-News-style hit piece.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Sid
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)describes it as an "independent social-democratic newspaper" ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftonbladet
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)Edited to add; FFS. Just look at who endorses this crap.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)It sure has been way wrong about the facts of this case, right from the beginning.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)Marx lever
Andreas Malm om en profet som syns överallt efter finanskrasch och arabisk revolution
http://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/article12917578.ab
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Sweden's extreme left is as scary in every way as the extreme right and they often meet when they have a common goal, as in this case. In fact that is what is so interesting about this case. How the far out extremes of both ideologies have aligned themselves against Assange. Politics sometimes has strange bedfellows. This is a perfect example of what that means. Extremism in any form is dangerous.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)Go too far off the extreme left, and you end up on the extreme right, and vice-verse.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)as careful of far out extremes on the left as on the right. I have a friend here in the US who is so far out in 'left' field she is as authoritarian about her views as any right winger. Never, ever argue with her. Eg, she actually does believe that all men are 'suspect' and that no woman should ever cook a meal for a man as they are only being used. Iow, normal relationships with a man simply cannot happen. It's scary. I have kind of avoided her for a long time as her views are so extreme it's hard to have a normal conversation with her. Much like I avoid family members on the far right.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)is the left edge of Scandinavian Social Democratic parties. Capitalism and free enterprise exist, but are regulated to channel them in the direction of the common good. People can make a reasonable profit with their business enterprises. Antitrust laws are enforced, civil liberties are vigorously protected and equality is not something to which mere lip service is paid. All citizens have equal rights before the law - men, women, gays, straights, and any other demographic group one might choose to dice the populace into.
Why is this perfectly reasonable vision for society so hard to get to? It seems so reasonable and equitable. I do despair.
Hassin Bin Sober
(27,429 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(105,922 posts)Newspapers and Magazines Online
Aftonbladet
(Left-wing), Stockholm
http://www.aftonbladet.se/
...
Expressen
(Liberal), Stockholm
http://www.expressen.se/
http://worldpress.org/newspapers/EUROPE/Sweden.cfm
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)don't think it is a fair evaluation. Having been reading it for nearly two years now, I would say it has elements of both the left and the right but a good comment section which is often the best way to judge what the actual people are thinking. Over time, the comments are more and more opposed to their government's actions in this case from my observation.
Assange, airc, was invited by them to write a column before all this happened and they have interviewed him and provided a platform for him in the past, to live chat with their readers.
Giving a platform to extremist right wingers too is fine by me also so long as the people are allowed to comment and state their views.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Honest. I saw it on TV.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)But I have been getting pissed off at the shit posted on DU about this case. Some people, to use a Fox News lead in are really mudding the waters. Curious indeed.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)You seem to be a tad obsessed.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)After all, we must maintain civility and work hard to have productive and pleasant discussions. That means that astroturfers do not exist. Our government does not try to manipulate opinion by employing shills to promote their agenda. Neither do corporations, or the Republican Party, or the military industrial complex. That's just conspiracy theory, and I've been instructed by the hosts that if I were to engage in such discussion, I would have to take it to Creative Speculation. I wouldn't want any of my posts to get hidden.
sendero
(28,552 posts).. "ditto"
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)backscatter712
(26,357 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Thanks.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Romneyesque disconnectedness.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Because the desperate people are the ones who worship him and wish him to get away with everything and start sounding like misogynists over sexual misconduct charges. Suddenly we are parroting the "women don't want to press charges," "she wanted it" right wing meme just to get the Precious One out of being questioned about it.
And the desperate attempt to paint the US as some sort of third world, totalitarian state, which, if we were really such, would have killed Julian long ago, if he was so important. They got Paul Wellstone didn't they? They've killed millions in the middle East. How come they didn't get Julian already? Why do they mess around with Swedish minor charges?
Quantess
(27,630 posts)I do not have time right now, but I can get back to you about this.
Interesting.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)
dogknob
(2,431 posts) muriel_volestrangler
(105,922 posts)(see #61 for the liberal ideological leaning of the paper - the author is the culture editor):
Julian Assange's circus has pulled off another breathtaking stunt: he has won political asylum in Ecuador. Assange's flight from Sweden, a decent democracy with a largely excellent justice system, takes ever more absurd forms. After the decision of Ecuador's foreign minister, Ricardo Patiño, the Swedish Twitterverse filled with mocking jokes.
Assange has few fans left here. On the contrary, his unholy alliance with Ecuador's political leadership casts a shadow over what was, despite everything, his real achievement: to reveal shattering news through the revolutionary medium of WikiLeaks.
Patiño praised Assange as a fighter for free expression, and explained that they had to protect his human rights. But Ecuador is a country with a dreadful record when it comes to freedom of expression and of the press. Inconvenient journalists are put on trial. Private media companies may not operate freely.
President Rafael Correa is patently unable to tolerate any truths that he does not own. Reporters Without Borders has strongly and often criticised the way that media freedoms are limited in Ecuador. Assange is a plaything for the president's megalomania.
Most of the women in Sweden who dare to report experiences of sexual assault to the police, despite the exposure that this brings, will find that the case is dropped because it is her word against his, and the other evidence is slight or non-existent. That is quite probably what would happen in this case, if Assange only dared come to Sweden for questioning. There is no reason to believe the fantastic conspiracy theories which say that the women's accusations are just a way to get at Assange.
...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/16/julian-assange-few-friends-left-sweden?INTCMP=SRCH
girl gone mad
(20,634 posts)Thanks for the translation.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... you can tell it is 100% bullshit from the first paragraph. How stupid do these people think we are?
Vattel
(9,289 posts)that Assange was set up or that the desire of the prosecutors in Sweden to talk to Assange is part of some orchestrated attempt to silence him. What is less far-fetched is that the extreme efforts to extradite him are politically motivated.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)contests the extradition? Sweden took out a warrant, alleging rape, and Assange in the UK contested the warrant in the UK courts: that fact, that Sweden responded to the lawsuit, is (in your eyes) a suspicious "extreme effort"?
Vattel
(9,289 posts)It is especially unusual when there is little evidence of any serious crime. Maybe there is a lot of evidence of a serious crime in this case, but if there is, it is not public. So again, it doesn't seem to me to be crazy to take seriously the possibility that it is because of who Assange is that he is being pursued so vigorously.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)directly comparable to the UK process but that under the existing extradition agreements the stage of the Swedish process corresponds to the early stages of a prosecution in the UK
Assange litigated that point and lost in open court
Vattel
(9,289 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Just to see if they see it differently.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)Lots of Swedes are flaming the hell out of the author and telling him he's full of shit.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Or did you use Babelfish?
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)and frustrated with Assange for seeking asylum. They still want him investigated.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jun/20/julian-assange-asylum-tragedy-lawyer
Julian Assange's decision to seek asylum in Ecuador is "a tragedy" for the two women who have accused him of sexual assault in Sweden, their lawyer has said.
Claes Borgström, who represents the two unnamed women with whom the WikiLeaks founder had sexual relations in Stockholm in August 2010, told the Guardian the women were frustrated and disappointed by Assange's decision to seek asylum rather than face investigation in Sweden over claims of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion.
"They are disappointed, but they are getting used to this by now," said Borgström, who has represented the women throughout Assange's sequence of appeals against extradition in the British courts.
"They know that all they can do is wait. I have told them I am not sure, but I think he will still be extradited … it is a tragedy for the women. I don't know how long it will take for him to be extradited now. Victims want to put these things behind them in order to be able to get on with their lives. The tragedy is that he doesn't take his responsibility. He should have come to Sweden."
Matariki
(18,775 posts) struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)20score
(4,769 posts)Maybe another journalist that has threatened the status quo and exposed wrong doing by the government.
Lots of good people to help destroy, why concentrate on one?
GoneOffShore
(18,010 posts)As the expression goes - Good luck with that.
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)Not all opinion is running in favor of the WikiLeaks founder. Sweden has held to its demand that Mr. Assange be extradited to face his accusers there, and the lawyer for the two women involved, Claes Borgstrom, calling Mr. Assange “a coward,” has said he and his supporters appear to have only contempt for the rights of his accusers.
The distancing has spread to the wealthy supporters who put up the bail of $375,000 that was forfeited when Mr. Assange fled to the embassy. One of those, the rights activist and socialite Jemima Khan, who pledged $31,500, said after Ecuador granted him asylum that she had changed her mind and believed that Mr. Assange should go to Sweden after all to answer the allegations.
The Guardian, the left-leaning newspaper that championed Mr. Assange when it was one of his news media “partners” in publishing the American documents but later had an acrimonious falling out with him, ran an editorial strongly critical of Ecuador on Friday.
“Ecuador has found a way to tweak the tail of the imperialist lion, but the law is not on Ecuador’s side,” The Guardian said. Mr. Assange, it said, was wanted in Sweden “for the specific and proper purpose of answering two allegations of sexual assault, which is in anyone’s language a serious nonpolitical crime.”
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)And has said his supporters have only contempt for the rights of his accusers!
Shocking new revelations, indeed.
What a cheesy hit piece.
But it's true, not all opinion is running in favor of Assange.
Conservatives everywhere would dearly love to see him hang for exposing the criminal acts of their beloved war machine.
pnwmom
(110,233 posts)and/or that they don't want him charged with rape. Their own lawyers' words give the lie to that.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)which the only evidence was the fact that the crazy guy was confessing to them.
He did nothing for the client and billed the government for 'millions'
The guy was initially convicted; the convictions were eventually overturned.
This is the stand-up guy being quoted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Quick
He has worked on several high-profile criminal cases, most notably as a defence counsel for convicted mass murderer Thomas Quick.[2] With no technical evidence, Quick was convicted of eight out of the more than thirty murders he confessed to. Three of the convictions have been overturned. It has been questioned whether Borgström as Thomas Quick's attorney neglected to protect his mentally disturbed client's objective interest in being judged not guilty.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claes_Borgstr%C3%B6m
In case Yenon Levi - where Bergwall Now granted new trial - lawyer was present at eleven police interrogation. In the 288-page transcript of the hearing set Borgström not a single issue. He was silent. The only thing he did during the trial that followed was to call a witness who sought to strengthen the suspicions against Bergwall. For his "effort" over the years in the Quick Hank picked Claes Borgström out millions in fees.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://thomasquick.wordpress.com/category/claes-borgstrom/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DClaes%2BBorgstr%25C3%25B6m%2Bthomas%2Bquick%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D580%26prmd%3Dimvnso&sa=X&ei=HTM3UK33DYmkiQKr3IEI&ved=0CDcQ7gEwAw
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)Jumping bail is a bad enough thing to do from a legal perspective. But gathering bail money from supporters instead of using your own resources and then fucking them over is pretty damn low.
And thanks for pointing out the bit about his accusers. The signal-to-nose ratio on these threads is bad enough with all of the speculation about extradition to the US and namecalling, but it's depressing how distorted many of the easily-researchable-facts-of-public-record have become around here. (And yet, I can't look away. Sigh...)
Marr
(20,317 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)
Why Syzygy
(18,928 posts)They didn't close it. They just changed leadership. They wanted him out of his position. He is out.
Myth 8: So are we to believe that no special agents work in Sweden? That they would use a couple of chicks walking down the street? Espionage has no borders.
I'm really surprised to see this kind of thing coming from you. I've always thought you one of the most logical.
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)Over the last two years, many DUers have made claims such as: the Swedish rape accusations are just the result of a CIA honeytrap -or- the Swedish rape accusations are just a trick to extradite Assange to the US
If people want to believe that the female supporters of Wikileaks in Sweden fuck people whenever the CIA says so, or if people want to believe that folk in the Swedish criminal justice system prostitute themselves for the US State Department ... well, then, no one will change their minds
But it seems to me entirely appropriate to post some opinions from the Swedish press here
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Meet Anna Ardin, the political secretary and press officer of the Swedish "Brotherhood Movement," a group of Christians from the Social Democratic Party controversial for inviting anti-Semitic speakers to the country. Another of their invited speakers: Assange...
Ardin appears to have helped coordinate Assange's travel around the country; in addition to arranging the Stockholm event, she reportedly tried to arrange places for Assange to stay through her Twitter account (she has apparently since deleted the tweets and has locked her WordPress blog).
The Swedish business news site Newzglobe today identified Ardin and quoted a Brotherhood official saying she was on sick leave from the organization. Ardin's name has also been tossed around in the Swedish blogosphere with increasing hostility: one writer wondered if the "radical feminist" was "the world's most hated woman right now." The backlash against the former university research assistant is fueled not only by the police backing down from the charges against Assange but also by a seven step guide Ardin published in January to "legal revenge" that involves, in one example, sabotaging a victim's sexual relationships...
http://gawker.com/5619931/meet-wikileaks-founders-alleged-sex-victim
One accuser, Anna Ardin, may have “ties to the US-financed anti-Castro and anti-communist groups,” according to Israel Shamir and Paul Bennett, writing for CounterPunch.
While in Cuba, Ardin worked with the Las damas de blanco (the Ladies in White), a feminist anti-Castro group...the group is led by Carlos Alberto Montaner who is reportedly connected to the CIA.
Shamir and Bennett also describe Ardin as a “leftist” who “published her anti-Castro diatribes (see here and here) in the Swedish-language publication Revista de Asignaturas Cubanas put out by Misceláneas de Cuba.”
Shamir and Bennett noted that Las damas de blanco is partially funded by the US government and also counts Luis Posada Carriles as a supporter.
Raw Story (http://s.tt/1d7Gw)
There's also the rumor that she's actually a lesbian:
http://ichaview.blogspot.com/2010/12/is-anna-ardin-lesbian-if-so-why-get.html
it's not just that she frequented the gay club: she was a founder.
Small detail: The article mentioned that .... "In 2007 she founded the gay club queer klubb Feber on Gotland, a 60 kilometers away from the coast Swedish island resort known as the cultural scene." I'm really impressed, this woman amazes with its versatility. Verify and ... it's true:
Press Contact: Anna Ardin http://klubbfeber.wordpress.com/om-oss/
Facebook Admin: Anna http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3256620037&v=wall&viewas=0
Articles for Club Febber (Petra Ornstein, Anna Ardin och Emma Welander): http://www.qx.se/5290/ikvall-oppnar-% C2% 94% C2% 94feber Gotlands Forsta-queerklubb
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.erinnerungsforum.net/forum/politik-weltgeschehen/wikileaks/235/%3Fwap2&prev=/search%3Fq%3Danna%2Bardin%2B%2522state%2Basset%2522%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D580%26prmd%3Dimvnso&sa=X&ei=1jg3UMbwNaHliALrxIC4BQ&ved=0CDgQ7gEwAw
MADem
(135,425 posts)Funny how some propaganda is 'better' than others.
And even if she were an evil CIA Jew hating anti-communist lesbian, that would mean that she had to be lying?
Surely if Assange is innocent, and all of this is trumped up bullshit, all he has to do is go to the police with all these swell links, and they'll see the light--no problem!
The more complex people try to make a conspiracy, the more absurd it starts to look.
The last paragraph of your GAWKER link is quite salient, too--but it doesn't advance the story for Assange, does it?
Frankly, if the US wanted Assange neutralized, they've gotten their wish. He's trapped in Knightsbridge, unable to do anything, unable to run his business, unable to persuade people to give him stuff to leak, unable to go out for a meal or a haircut--he is STUCK.
He's effectively in prison, and the Ecuadoran government is PAYING for his incarceration. USA has nothing to do with it--talk about a win-win!
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)
redqueen
(115,186 posts)For decades we have campaigned to get rapists caught, charged and convicted. But the pursuitof Assange is political
When Julian Assange was first arrested, we were struck by the unusual zeal with which he was being pursued for rape allegations.
It seems even clearer now, that the allegations against him are a smokescreen behind which a number of governments are trying to clamp down on WikiLeaks for having audaciously revealed to the public their secret planning of wars and occupations with their attendant rape, murder and destruction.
Justice for an accused rapist does not deny justice for his accusers. But in this case justice is being denied both to accusers and accused.
...
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)... Assange, who it seems has no criminal convictions, was refused bail in England despite sureties of more than £120,000. Yet bail following rape allegations is routine ...
Katrin Axelsson
Women Against Rape
Rape claims, WikiLeaks and internet freedom
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 8 December 2010 16.02 EST
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/08/wikileaks-rape-allegations-freedom-of-speech
Bail was subsequently granted, of course, and Assange later skipped out, leaving his guarantors to forfeit their cash. So, looking back, it seems that the Swedish prosecutors, who asked the UK courts to deny bail, perhaps had a much better handle on Assange's character than Katrin Axelsson
struggle4progress
(125,843 posts)The Irish Times - Friday, August 24, 2012
SUSAN McKAY
... Assange has not sought political asylum because of WikiLeaks. He is on the run from allegations of rape. These alleged crimes are defined as both serious and non-political. Political asylum is a hard-won human right – Assange has abused it. In doing so he has endorsed a real witch hunt – against the women who allege he sexually coerced them ..
The fact the US has not sought to extradite Assange from the UK, which has the sort of right-wing government that would probably be all too ready to comply with such a request, is not addressed.
Nor is the fact that those accused of sexual offences routinely skip across borders to evade legal proceedings, and that the ability to extradite them is vital. Think Liam Dominic Adams. Think Fr Brendan Smyth. Nor that the assumptions behind the conspiracy theory are based on deeply misogynist notions of why women make rape allegations. Nor that the Swedish justice system is internationally respected in relation to its handling of crimes of sexual violence.
Assange has, however, in the past, been less reticent. “Sweden is the Saudi Arabia of feminism,” he has said. “I fell into the hornet’s nest of revolutionary feminism.” One of his lawyers told a British newspaper that “the honey trap has been sprung . . . dark forces are at work . . . this is part of a greater plan” ...
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0824/1224322862282.html
leveymg
(36,418 posts)This is just another recitation of the now familiar talking points that say, in more than a dozen convoluted ways, the attempt to prosecute Assange has nothing to do with Wikileaks.
You guys really would think we are stupid, if we swallowed that. 
