Atheism is a very, very narrow thing.

[MineralMan]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by DonViejo (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Last edited Sat Dec 29, 2018, 02:10 PM - Edit history (2)

It has to do only with the idea of the existence of deities. Atheists don't believe that such supernatural entities exist. Some atheists declare that they don't exist. Most simply don't believe they exist.

Either way, that is the only tenet of atheism. Atheism doesn't have anything to say about other philosophical questions. Individual atheists may be humanists or royalists. Atheism can exist in democracies, socialist societies, or even in tyrannical government systems. However, atheism is not in any way about politics. It is far narrower in its scope than that.

Atheists, as individuals, believe many things about many things. They just don't believe that deities or other supernatural entities exist. That's about the only principle you can depend on an atheist to hold. Beyond that, you must ask the individual atheist how he or she things about other subjects.

Atheism is not a belief system. It is simply non-belief in one particular area.

[no_hypocrisy]

1. Agreed. And atheism is not an end-all concept.

It can be a factor in other beliefs such as freethought, humanism, ethical culture.

[dvduval]

15. Right

There are forces at work that I are not understood, but an Athiest would not think of their being a God behind these forces, or behind their creation.

[mr_lebowski]

2. +1 Atheism is no more a 'belief system' than 'non-belief in unicorns' is a belief system

Which is to say, there's no more logical/scientific reason to believe in magical sky-creators ... than there is to believe in unicorns ...

And that which is posited without evidence ... can be similarly rejected without evidence.

[TlalocW]

14. Or my preferred analogy

Atheism is a religion/belief system like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

TlalocW

[mr_lebowski]

22. That is also an excellent analogy ... (nt)

[Vinca]

3. Exactly.

[Corvo Bianco]

4. Knowing I don't believe in God my catholic boss told me 'happy voodoo day' for Christmas

happy rape a little boy day back at you.

[moriah]

16. I stopped letting people at work know I was Pagan after a boss...

... searched my cubicle, allegedly for a voodoo doll of her. She'd had several illnesses and then had to have her gallbladder removed.

I wanted to believe she was joking when she said she was going to search for one, but when she actually started ransacking the cube... woah!

[Wounded Bear]

21. I'm not sure that a Pagan qualifies as an atheist...

but I know you tend to face the same attitudes from "believers."

[moriah]

33. I only mentioned it cuz of the voodoo comment.

It seems like a go-to for many people for anything not of what they believe.

And there are some who think that anyone who doesn't worship God automatically worships Satan, whether or not they believe in such an entity. So that throws Pagans, atheists, and agnostics all into the good old "damned to hell" bucket.

[TlalocW]

17. Oooh, what he say/do?

Fast thinking.

TlalocW

[LiberalFighter]

67. I didn't know I was suppose to have voodoo dolls.

[ismnotwasm]

5. Exactly

I am not a believer, although I enjoy my bits of magical thinking as much as the next person, (the concept of luck, or seeing more than coincidence in odd situations) but neither an I prepared to declare, with the certainty of an atheist, that there is not and never was any such thing as a deity. Religious dogma is one thing, and very easy to reject; the reality of a being with far more than human power, to the point humans have anthropomorphilize it to give it a way to understand it, is something else.

So I say “I don’t know” and am content.

[Wounded Bear]

19. Wouldn't that be more of an agnostic...?

I don't know is a bit different than I don't believe.

[ismnotwasm]

32. Pretty much

I rule nothing in or out without proof. I only have disbelief. I don’t feel the certainty of atheists.

[USALiberal]

38. Proof is the responsibility of the person making the claim........

So no one should believe in unicorns until there is proof.
Or God
Or ESP
Or Fortune telling
Or Haunted Houses
Or Ghosts
Or Aliens
Etc

[ismnotwasm]

51. Very true, but people like using the white crow theory

Something along the lines that to prove the existence of white crows you only need a single example.

[Stonepounder]

69. Other things I don't believe in until I see proof:

tRump can tell the truth
The GOP wants to do what is best for the country and its citizens
Betsy DeVoss wants to actually educate children
FOX News is actually a news channel and not a propaganda channel

And, just for the record, I am an agnostic.

[Doodley]

72. Can you prove everything you believe?

[Mariana]

53. Atheism doesn't require certainty.

There may be such things as gods, but I don't believe in them. That makes me an atheist.

[ismnotwasm]

60. Is that agnostic?

Admitting the (remote) possibility, with no belief? It’s certainty OK to be an atheist, I personally am not.

I’m also putting off my workout with this thread I’ve noticed

[Fla Dem]

75. I always understood the difference between Atheism and Agnosticism is

Atheism is the firm belief that there is no supernatural being/deity that has influence over the universe. While Agnosticism is more of a "shrug the shoulders" approach to belief in a all supreme God,; maybe there is maybe there isn't. I just don't care.

[ismnotwasm]

82. Well said

I am curious as a cat, and how beliefs in dieties helped shape human culture is endlessly fascinating to me. And I love the history and possibilities of science, going from alchemy to chemistry for instance.

That being said, I don’t make fun of religious people, unless they are RW assholes.

[USALiberal]

24. I'll not believe it until there is proof of it. No one should. nt

[ismnotwasm]

31. This is my point

Since you cannot prove a negative and physics is very strange.

[erronis]

39. I actually think "proving the negative" is how a lot of mathematical proofs are constructed.

Like proving that you don't need more than four colors for a 2D map.

But I agree that this is all very mystical... (kidding!)

[ismnotwasm]

47. Naw, I'm just pointing out why I'm not an atheist using a poor argument

One thing my racist parents did right, was raise me without religion—my mom converted to Catholicism when I was 12 or so, but this was more to get me into a Catholic school—racial integration was in full swing by then, and they were afraid I’d be attracted to someone not white. True story. (Ran away rather then go to a school where I knew no one)

So I have like, zero religious baggage EXCEPT fo the entirety of the history of the human race—which is nothing to make light of.

So when I read read ridiculous speculation that we may be holograms, as a for instance, or the possible that the Universe is either infinite or multiple, I fell like I know nothing about reality, except the practical kind.

[Ron Obvious]

6. And most believers are atheistic when it comes to other religions

I can't think of too many Christians who are worried that the Muslims are right and they themselves will be headed for Islamic Hell for example.

That's how we atheists view your religion. We just believe in one fewer God than you do.

Not my own, obviously, but it sums it up nicely.

[DFW]

7. One of my favorite quotes:

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[smirkymonkey]

10. I like that very much.

I have never heard it before. Thanks DFW!

Happy New Year to you and your family!

[Duppers]

20. Wow, I just downloaded that very quote pic

Last night when it was posted on another site. Coinkydink.

[erronis]

41. Well, see? There is a higher power! Or you two are "entangled".

[notKeith]

8. By the way, Happy Chrismahannakwanzakah.

If I say "I believe I'm an atheist" I'm concerned about the existential black hole that may form.
Irrespective, a Venn diagram displaying the intersection of all world religions is a null set.
Oh, there are consistencies regarding behavior in general terms, but the devil's in the details, if I may be so irreligious to suggest it.
Therefore, EVERYONE is going to Hell, or will come back as some vermin, or .. will simply go away once they die.

Occam's Razor, folks.

[MineralMan]

11. Clearly, you are not Keith.

Happy Holidays to you.

[mwb970]

12. I look at it statistically and logically.

There are roughly 4200 religions in the world. Each one says that it is true and all the others are false. That means that each religion has one group (its own members) saying it is true and 4199 groups saying it is false. The only logical conclusion is that they are ALL false.

[mwb970]

9. I am tired of being told that atheism is a religion.

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

[MineralMan]

13. I like that variation on the theme!

[bitterross]

26. Me too!

It's frustrating.

Though, for people who feel everyone must have faith in something it's deeply confusing. It is difficult for them to step outside their world view and understand I'm totally okay with unanswered questions. That's one of the biggest obstacles to people giving up their religious belief systems. The need for an answer NOW.

It doesn't cause me stress that I cannot explain everything about how the universe originated and how we came to be upon this Earth. I take that as a challenge to explore, learn and expand my knowledge.

It frustrates me to no end that so many modern religious people would laugh at a flat-earther but still want to believe the Biblical God of Abraham exists. They can replace myth and lack of understanding about the shape of the Earth but they cannot allow themselves to go that one more step.

Indoctrination from birth really works well for shaping belief systems.

[Kablooie]

18. I think there is another aspect to atheism

Atheists don't believe there is another version of life after death. Death is an end to all experiences, memories and consciousness.

[MineralMan]

23. For most atheists, that follows logically.

It's not really another aspect of atheism. It's just what happens if there are no supernatural entities to arrange for such a thing.

For this atheist, one life is enough. How I have lived it will be something I consider as I near the end of it. That makes an enormous difference to me in decisions I make.

[luvtheGWN]

56. I've long thought that the concept of "life after death" is a result of

a person's ego not being able to conceive of not being anywhere. Of course the world's most populous religions exploited this and used it to keep their flocks in line. To me, death is no different than being asleep and not waking up. When I'm asleep, I am aware of nothing. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust -- quite literally.

[Kablooie]

77. I think of death as returning to the state you were in...

Before you were concieved.

[edhopper]

25. That would be a naturalist by philosophy

I would think an atheist could technically believe in some sort of spirit world. Though that is probably rare.

[MineralMan]

44. Really, just as I don't believe in supernatural deities,

I do not and cannot believe that any sort of supernatural spirit world exists. No evidence exists of that, either. No evidence exists of any continuation of any individual existence after physical death, either. I cannot believe in things that have no evidence of being real. That's really at the core of rational atheism and rational politics, as well, which looks at real causes and effects of policies.

[edhopper]

49. I agree, I don't either

but I was responding to whether atheist could believe in an afterlife. Technically they could.

[MineralMan]

54. I don't know how one would rationalize such a belief.

Most atheists I know are sticklers for evidence, something there is none of regarding any sort of afterlife. Personally, I don't know any actual atheists who think such a thing is possible.

But, there are millions of people with millions of shades of belief and disbelief. Any sort of belief is possible with humans.

[edhopper]

57. As I said

it would be rare. There is also the question of Buddhism and atheism.

[MineralMan]

63. Buddhism is a complicated religion.

It, like other major religions, has several schools of thought. Confucianism is similar in that way. Instead of a deity, there is an overriding principle, which serves a similar purpose. For me, both break down when it comes to talking about non-physical existence. Once again, no evidence exists, so I can't accept such things as real.

[ismnotwasm]

86. There is great YouTube from Buddhistttemple

Called the “Eight Consciousnesses” I think. It covers Buddhist systems pretty good. You aren’t kidding it’s complicated

[MineralMan]

90. I have done some study of Buddhism in the past.

It's very interesting, but it's not for me.

[Farmer-Rick]

76. There is some indication that time is tied in with observation and consciousness

So, I suspect there is more to our time in life than we know. But we need more data to understand what is going on. There is something weird going on about time that isn't fully understood. But it has nothing to do with a god.

[MineralMan]

88. We have plenty of evidence of the effect of time on our lives.

Time, as a concept, can be complicated. As we experience it, however, it is quite simple, really. Our lives can easily be measured in terms of time, and generally are. For example, my parents are both 94 years old. Sadly, their lives are nearly over. They know that. I know that. Their medical professionals know that. While nobody knows exactly how much longer they will live, clearly they are approaching the end of life. I am experiencing that phenomenon as their 73-year-old son. Like them, I am aware of the finiteness of life in terms of time.

We have no evidence of any continuation beyond death. None whatsoever. Logic says that the end is the end, and that our time is up at that point. Between birth and death, a variable period of time elapses. One can divide that period into decades, years, months, weeks, days, hours, minutes, or even seconds. Those divisions might affect our experience of time, but not the actual time we have as living beings.

From an external viewpoint, each life has a beginning and an end. And there it is. Beyond that, we have no evidence to suggest that there is anything more than that. Rational, logical people understand that and accept it without too much trouble, generally. My parents do, I know. I talk to them every day, and will see them next week when I travel to California for a week.

[erronis]

45. And many of us look forward to that end, not through fear or escape, just completion.

And I look forward to having my memories stored in some living protoplasm for a while and then also disappearing.

My body, well whatever nutrients are left can be used by some other life forms and eventually make it back into someone like me or you.

[A HERETIC I AM]

73. You can not assign such things to "all" atheists.

Atheism simply addresses the question as to the validity of the claim of the existence of a god or gods.

That's it. Many Buddhists are Atheist and they have a belief in some sort of existence beyond the human one. Plenty of people who have no belief in god believe in some sort of afterlife.

I like Matt Dillahunty's explanation the best;

(Paraphrasing) "The atheist position is that the claims made for the existence of god have not been proven. It is the same as if in a court of law, the defendant is found "Not Guilty". The defendant is not found innocent. There is a specific difference.

God is not guilty of existing because there has been no proof provided for the claim that he does. There is a reasonable doubt standard that can apply.

The simple word "Atheist" does not claim that no gods exist, merely that insufficient evidence has been presented so far as to make god "guilty" of existing."

As far as the way I look at it, I KNOW all gods are mythical constructs. They are all cut from the same cloth, as well. There is no more reason to believe the god of Abraham and Isaac are real entities than there is reason to believe Zeus and Apollo are real. In fact, if you think Jehovah is real, then you should also think Isis and Set and Osiris are real. Because they are essentially the same.

I have no gods because I don't need any. And if Jehovah is real and is anything at all like the stories told about him in the bible, I want nothing to do with him.

[Kablooie]

89. Yes, you are right. I overstepped in my generalization

And, to take a hypothetical example, if science had solid evidence that consciousness was independent of the physical body and continued to exist after death, atheists would be willing to believe this.

[LiberalFighter]

79. Agreed

If there was an afterlife what would be the purpose? Wouldn't people feel a strong presence? I for one have never felt one. Nor has anyone in my family or other relatives. Past 4 generations have lived and died pretty much in the same locale.

People live in the afterlife only in the memories of the living.

[edhopper]

27. MM

is there reason this is in GD, is it in response to something?

[MineralMan]

35. It's in GD because Republican politics in the US is so heavily tied into

religion. We even have a Secretary of State who believes that the Rapture is coming soon. Our secular government is rapidly becoming a refuge for religious extremists.

So, understanding atheism is important. I would elect an atheist who is a Democrat in a quick hurry. We could use some atheistic perspective in this country right now. Our form of government is designed for people of reason and logic, not people with faith in a fantasy.

I could have posted it in the religion group, but decided to put it where more people might read it.

[edhopper]

36. fair enough

thanks

[USALiberal]

40. Did it bother you? Seems to be a popular post, soo that covers it. nt

[edhopper]

46. Not at all

MM often post in the Religion Forum. He also has thoughtful post that respond to other posts there. I was just curious if there was one in GD he was responding to.

His answer cleared that up.

[USALiberal]

28. I tell my friends, "I just believe in one less god that you do!", usually shuts them up. nt

[WhiskeyWulf]

42. That doesn't work on polytheists, though. :) nt

[USALiberal]

43. Good point. nt

[Eliot Rosewater]

29. Never thought about it that way, do I say leprechauns DO NOT or I dont believe they do.

I see the distinction.

If push came to shove I would say based on scientific data at hand DO NOT.

[edhopper]

37. I leave believe out of it

I say I don't accept the existence of any gods.

[Eliot Rosewater]

62. Yeah, do not is what I said. Asking me if I BELIEVE in leprechauns is

the problem, or god. Since you might as well ask me if I BELIEVE in you have monkeys flying out of your butt while I am talking to you.

I dont believe that, because it is not happened and CANNOT happen.

I cant get to believe as you say.

[AlexSFCA]

30. absolutely; it's just another version of bothsiderism

Sort of alternative facts; atheism is a natural state of mind for humans whereas religion is teaching about believing in non-facts. If you are taught something from early age then it becomes second nature and subconscious. Atheism is relying on facts and evidence. I would say science and religion are two opposite terms rather than atheism and religion. Also, a person can be religious but not really beleive in anything supernatural - very common thing these days meaning you just blindly follow religious traditions. The way I look at it is if a person makes decisions based on religious beliefs then that person is a true believer. Otherwise it’s just words not action. I think that USA is majority atheist country cause 50%+ people do not take religioun, beliefs in gods into consideration when making decisions. You can be both christian and atheist at the same time. Lots of jewish folks are like that: identify with judaism but also atheists.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

34. "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." ― Mark Twain

[erronis]

50. Wouldn't Sam Clemens have a hay day with the current situation?

We need more like him. Perhaps Colbert, Franken, Maher, Samantha Bee.

Pithy.

[PWPippinesq]

74. Don't forget the greatly missed Molly Ivins.

[ffr]

48. Atheism.org definition of atheism (which is the way I've always understood it)

Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. - Atheism.org

The foundation boils down to one simple problem, synthetic a-priori knowledge, or knowledge before the fact. I express the question simply with the following example. Let's assume there is a deity and a book or bible was written about this deity and their teachings, but one problem, the book was lost after being buried and everyone with knowledge of the book and its whereabouts were lost. The book/bible exists, but is never found or spoken of again.

Now assume that you are a newborn human understanding the world around you. You grow up in this supernatural world, one that has a deity, but again, the book and oral history to the deities teachings, as far as all of mankind is concerned, have been forever lost, how do you make the leap of knowledge to accept that there is not only a deity, but that there is the existence of this one exact deity?

[MineralMan]

59. Oh, people define it in different ways. There are all sorts of semantics

involved in describing a lack of belief in something. However, the first part of your first sentence is the. Atheism isn't a belief that there is not god. It is the lack of any such belief in deities. That fine distinction gets missed by a lot of religious believers. They positively believe in whatever deity or deity their religion espouses, and cannot understand a simple lack of belief in what they believe.

So, they try to find a way to define atheism that fits into their own mindset. They reject the definition(s) provided by atheists themselves, but expect atheists to accept their flawed definition. It's an odd thing. Arguments continue.

[Marcuse]

66. Atheist churches with sacraments and other trappings of religion confuse me.

[Greybnk48]

52. That is spot on for me.

That is also the literal meaning of the word. Without theism. Nothing more.

[Johnny2X2X]

55. We don't believe in all 2000 gods

There are about 2000 deities people worship. Most people don’t believe in 1999 of them, us atheists don’t believe in the other 1 either.

I don’t feel the need to prove the Easter Bunny doesn’t exist either. Just don’t give it a thought. That doesn’t make me an agnostic in regards to the Easter Bunny.

[MineralMan]

65. It's not that simple, really.

Hinduism, for example has a whole list of deities. The old Greek, Roman and other pagan religions did, too.

[shockey80]

58. Some of us are skeptics which simply means we need proof, facts, for everything, then we believe.

Prove it. Thats how I am with everything. Because I was raised a catholic and born a skeptic I decided to believe in God, just in case. LOL.

[TxDemChem]

61. Absolutely

[in2herbs]

64. I appreciate the dialogue, MineralMan, though I doubt this question and others like it will ever be

answered to everyone’s satisfaction. Inclusive of your other postings, if a belief in a religion, faith, and/or atheism is removed from all aspects of human life, what guides the moral compass that allows humans the ability to distinguish good from evil?

[MineralMan]

70. Hmm...well, if you look at most religions, you'll find that they

all have most of their ethical or "moral" rules in common. Why? Well, because those rules were developed by the cultures in which the religions began. Really, in my opinion, religions have their origins in the existing cultures.

For me, one rule encompasses them all, and that is the rule of reciprocity. It's very logical. Treat others as you wish to be treated, and we'll all get along fine, if everyone does that in all areas of life. All the rest of the ethical and moral laws are based on that primary one, if you analyze them.

Reciprocity is a common basis for the ethos of almost every culture. So, there you are.

[Doodley]

80. What moral compass does the Christian right use? Belief in a God or religious texts does not

provide a moral compass. I believe we are smart enough to figure out for ourselves to treat others as we wish to be treated. We have survived this long without completely killing our own species because of an innate propensity to choose peace over conflict.

[ThirdEye]

87. Guides the moral compass?

Probably the evolutionary benefits of cooperation which led us to becoming empathetic beings.

Honestly, you're not suggesting that religion, faith, or the lack thereof is somehow required for morality to exist are you?

If you are, most of the prominent holy books, such as the Bible or Quran, are packed full of immorality. Hard to accept for most, but the bible condones slavery and even provides a framework of rules around it. Clearly we believe that's immoral and somehow we figured that out without relying on faith in the bible's truthfulness.

[Generic Brad]

68. Well stated, sir!

So many people mistake it as a character defect or a lack of morality instead.

[MineralMan]

71. Yes, they do. And that's a huge mistake.

[backscatter712]

78. Religion works much better when people treat it metaphorically instead of literally.

Remember back in the day when people would say "Yeah, I'm a Christian. Jesus was a really great guy - he looked after the sick, fed the poor, taught everyone to chill out and be nice to each other, but did he really die and come back from the dead? Nah, that's just an old wive's tale."

But, you say, that's atheism! Shhhhhh...

[LAS14]

81. And your point? To whom are you addressing this? Do people disagree with you? nt

[Nitram]

83. Atheism is narrow if you define God narrowly. Atheism is broad if you have a

broad definition of God.

[PWPippinesq]

84. Thank you for this discussion, Mineral Man

I have been an atheist since about age ten, long before I knew the meaning of the word. I had great difficulty in catechism classes having to say that I believed in "the father, the son and the Holy Ghost" since I had no idea what they were, had never seen them and didn't believe in them. Just to cover all bases, I crossed my fingers when saying it in case a god did exist and I was telling a lie for which I might be struck down upon leaving the church. In adulthood, I finally found my way to being a very comfortable atheist and have been for at least 66 years with no god striking me down.

[Martin Eden]

85. Any difference between atheist and agnostic?

I do not hold any belief regarding God or deities, except that it's impossible for me to actually "know."

Human beings are too limited in perception and intellect to understand the reality of or to answer the ultimate question:

Why and how is there anything?

When human awareness evolved enough to ask the question, we eventually created God in our own image.

[DonViejo]

91. Locking...

The consensus of Forum Hosts feel your OP is misplaced in the General Discussions Forum and recommend you please post this in the Atheists and Agnostics Group.