Children born of Incest

[HockeyMom]

I worked with two. One woman was born of a rape by a father of his 13 year daughter. The second woman was born of a rape by a brother of his younger 15 year old sister.

I guess their "lady parts" failed to prevent the conception by their own family members? Maybe because these young girls weren't terrified enough??????? Since they got pregnant. it wasn't rape?

Both these men were jailed. The daughter committed suicide a few years after giving birth. The sister was in and out of jail for prostitution and drug dealing.

Because of the very close genetic connection, both the children were born severely physically and mentally impaired. They were non-verbal, could not walk, toilet, feed themselves, etc, in addition to many other medical conditions requiring surgeries to keep them alive. They became wards of the state because nobody wanted to adopt them.

So, they think all these women (girls in this case) should just "make the best of a bad situation" and give birth to their father or brother's babies? FORCED to? They are just as sick as the men who committed these rapes.

[a la izquierda]

1. Oh my god.

I'm totally at a loss.

[spanone]

2. it's hard to fathom that a u.s. senatorial candidate can be so fucking ignorant

[BlueMTexpat]

6. Given the recent examples of those with an R after their name,

it's tragic to realize that the GOP really believes that we are ALL so stupid.

What's even more tragic is to realize that even now, there will be many GOPers - male and female - who will vote for such candidates - and Dems who either will not vote for the Dem alternative or will not vote at all.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

73. In this time of villinization of intellect...

...Why is this hard to fathom? While I keep getting surprised at the LEVEL of stupidity, I was not surprised in the comments. I'm not that naive. They hate women. They want to control women. They know we're smarter. They know we're stronger. Of COURSE they hate us.

[cali]

3. Of course that's rape and of course

all women should have access to abortion, and the story you tell here is horrifying. I personally find incest repugnant but having said that, we know that the vast majority of children born of 1st degree incest are not born with birth defects. Yes, it's higher than in children born from an unrelated couple or children born of first cousins, (2% and 2.6% respectively), and it is statistically significant (around 9-10%) but 90% of children born of 1st degree incest are fine.

[AllyCat]

9. Link for that cali?

I'm sure it's out there somewhere, but are these odds acceptable to you? Women should have the right to terminate these pregnancies if they are unwilling to accept the increased risk.

[Fumesucker]

10. Women should have the right to terminate pregnancies for whatever reason.. n/t

[SunSeeker]

16. +10000000000000000000000000000000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[redqueen]

25. Thank you!!!!!!

[AllyCat]

31. Yup.

[Fla Dem]

37. Exactly, there should be no if, ands, or buts. Her body, Her choice. End of discussion. n/t

[Scootaloo]

52. I really can't fathom how anyone could believe otherwise

Makes it hard to argue the point, actually. I try, and I just end up staring at the anti-choicer, trying to figure out which eye socket the probe went into for the lobotomy they suffered.

[Bluerthanblue]

18. if you look you'll easily find what Cali said is true. And

as for your question about the odds being acceptable- why do you ask that?

I'm not sure that the OP's intent was to stigmatize children born as a result of incest as being ...'defective' or 'tainted', but I was glad to see someone point out the facts.

A woman should have the freedom and right to make decision to end a pregnancy regardless of how the pregnancy began or it's genetic make-up.

Choice is exactly that- the freedom to make a choice and to be supported and respected regardless of other peoples opinions of 'what they think should be done'.

We need to support each others decisions, not judge them, especially when the choices are at odds with our own perspective.

at least imo-

[AllyCat]

33. Why? Because I probably read more into her post than was there.

I was frustrated by the comments of nuts (some here, but mostly on FB and in person) about incest not being a legitimate reason for allowing abortion. I take care of women who are terminating pregnancies because of birth defects. I get tired of the comments from fellow nurses that they should just take what God has given them, etc. These are heart-wrenching decisions for these families. And under R/R, they would have to bring these babies to term with either fatal anomalies or spend months in the NICU and then in and out of hospitals for the rest of their lives. If a family chooses to bring these children into their families, that is great and many do. For those who cannot bear it for emotional, financial, or whatever reasons, they should be able to terminate.

I felt the overall tone of cali's post questioning the OP's statements about children she knows who came from incestuous relationships was defending what the Republicans want by outlawing abortion in cases of incest just because 9/10 of these kids are just fine. That brought on my comments about "odds" which really don't matter.

[cali]

36. what a steaming pile of...

yes, dear, because this is just so ambiguous:

Of course that's rape and of course

all women should have access to abortion, and the story you tell here is horrifying. I personally find incest repugnant


I think it's disgusting to claim that the tone of my post was defending the repuke stance, when that isn't even close to accurate.

Why on earth people twist things the way YOU just did, is beyond my ken.

[AllyCat]

65. Actually, there is nothing about what happens at work that is a steaming pile.

Internet is a flat medium. I think you and I have had this discussion before. It was difficult to discern your tone and my emotions were inflamed over many other things that have happened.

[LeftishBrit]

51. No one here is saying that incest is not a legitimate reason for abortion!

Certainly Cali was saying no such thing, quite the opposite.

[Bluerthanblue]

55. That's the way I see it too-

I didn't hear anything in Cali's reply which suggested otherwise.

I understand AllyCat's frustration with her co-workers, but they aren't part of our conversation here.

[cali]

56. thanks.

I appreciate it.

[Marrah_G]

70. Cali was simply pointing out a fact, not advocating for the banning of abortion

If we are unable to discuss any topic if any fact might be something the other side my use for their argument then we are just as fucked up as they are.

[Xithras]

28. Yes, they are.

Two very good friends of mine adopted a little girl 11 years ago who was the result of a father/daughter rape (father went to prison, but the 17 year old daughter was already near-term before the whole thing was uncovered).

The girl is bright, happy, and has no mental or physical problems. Unfortunately for them, they made the mistake of telling some of their friends and family about her origins, so they still get questions about it to this day, "Does she show any disabilities yet?" "How bad are her mental delays?" Things like that. It's like people expect her to simply "break" one day.

9 out of 10 kids born to incest are just fine. Clearly, incest is NEVER okay, but the children who are born of it shouldn't be stigmatized for something they had no part in, and people shouldn't automatically assume that they have some terrible handicap.

[LisaL]

32. Yes, the chance of genetic disability is increased, but it doesn't mean

the resulting offspring will be genetically disabled. Those people who adopted the child should have kept their moths shut, however. There is no need to stigmatize the child.

[Xithras]

40. Yes, they should have.

They made the mistake of assuming that their friends and family would be supportive and discreet. They learned the hard way that it isn't always the case.

The little girl knows she's adopted, but doesn't know the details. When asked, they simply told her that her biological mother was a teen mom who couldn't keep her. It's technically the truth, but the complete story will wait until she's old enough to process it properly.

[LisaL]

41. Yes, hindsight is 20/20.

[LeftishBrit]

50. As I understand, the risk for some kinds of incestuous matings is greater than that

I believe that the 10 per cent figure is for uncle-niece and aunt-nephew matings. As I understand, the risk for father-daughter and brother-sister matings ranges from 20 per cent to 36 per cent in different studies. Not a majority, but a high risk.

All women should have access to abortion, whatever the cause of the pregancy; but this is a particularly upsetting situation.

[cali]

68. The Journal of Genetic Counseling

says first degree (father-daughter, siblings) incest raises the risk from 2% to 10%. 2nd degree raises it to 2.6%, according to the Journal.

[sinkingfeeling]

4. I truly believe that men who rape and men who oppose abortion have the same agenda. To

dominate women, to treat us as second-class human beings.

[Lifelong Protester]

5. You have hit the nail on the head

I agree with you fully, that IS their agenda.

[4th law of robotics]

39. How do you explain women

who do those same things?

/not disagreeing, just curious.

[sinkingfeeling]

43. Brainwashed by the idiot, domineering men in their lives, like husbands, priests, and

bosses.

[4th law of robotics]

44. So no matter what

men are at fault?

Women can't ever be in the wrong?

[sinkingfeeling]

45. When you've lived my life, come back and continue. Look at the history of

this world and then tell me why I think men still seek to dominate women.

[4th law of robotics]

47. Your history gives you a right to speak for

all men and all women?

Are you God?

[sinkingfeeling]

59. Yes.

[4th law of robotics]

60. There's some famines and wars and plagues you ought to be attending to then

rather than posting on an internet forum.

[Care Acutely]

66. Buying into your abusers script is a very normal defense mechanism.

Ask any police officer, ask any ED nurse. So very often the woman with the broken teeth and cigarette burns on her face and arms will set about telling you what she did wrong, how she "set him off," how she shouldn't have been doing this or that . . . .


So you see where I"m going with this.

[lunatica]

76. Only an apologist for men's bad behavior tries to make women just as quilty

She never said everything is men's fault. You're condescension comes across as willful nitpicking.

[4th law of robotics]

80. I suggest you reread the exchange

as you clearly did not grasp what was said.

I asked for the motivation behind female abusers.

This person claimed they were all brainwashed by men. So really *ALL* abuse is the fault of men. Women are incapable of acting independently in a negative manner.

I dispute that notion as I neither think women are inferior nor superior. They are simply people. Meaning that they are quite capable of doing bad things all on their own.

The person I was responding to seems to feel men are pure evil and women are pure good (albeit corruptible). This is sexism.

Consider: men never do wrong, and when they do it's because they were pushed to it by some wretched woman.

What are your thoughts on that "logic"?

[Ian David]

77. So, even when men are the victim, it's still the men's fault. Lovely. n/t

[RBInMaine]

78. Are there any "idiot" women in their lives telling them to just stand there and take it? Your state-

ment is a bit off the beam. This smacks of blaming the victim and gender-baiting. You are using very broad brush strokes here, and you should know better.

[NYC Liberal]

46. There are women too who have a need to control

and dominate others. I guarantee you that, as with anti-choice men, anti-choice women demonstrate that need for domination in areas beyond abortion.

[4th law of robotics]

48. That is a much better answer

than the other one I got (men misbehave because they're evil, women misbehave because they've been brainwashed by evil men).

[fasttense]

71. Your question is confusing

There are very few women who rape, despite what the news media and TV shows would have you believe. So, women raping other people is not a major social problem. Especially since women raping rarely results in the pregnancy of someone else.

[get the red out]

53. Yes, POWER

They want power over women, feel they deserve it, just for being born with a penis.

[kestrel91316]

58. Not quite. They want to treat us as NOT HUMAN. We are like livestock to them - property to

use and abuse as they see fit.

[magical thyme]

75. in a single word, we are "chattel." nt

[ThatsMyBarack]

7. "Every child is a blessing from God."

Until it's actually BORN with severe mental and physical impairments.

[Arkansas Granny]

13. Or until it is born into a situation where it will require social programs to provide food, housing

and medical care. Then it's just too bad and it will just have to live in abject poverty.

[HockeyMom]

19. Then they want to cut/defund Medicaid

This population will require all of those things for their entire lives. Or maybe these pro birth people will bring back the Willowbrooks with a staff of 2 nurses to 150 patients in one big room wallowing in their own squalor. When I started working in this field, I had to watch those films every year. The message to us was, "NEVER let this happen again." It will with these Republicans.

BTW, think think all mentally impaired are DOWNS. While Santorum disgusts me, I am glad the nation got to see his daughter Bella. "Her medical bills are bankrupting me". What about the parents who don't have his money? What about the children, and adults, who have far MORE disabilities than Bella?

Everyone of these fanatical pro-birth, Medicaid cutting Repukes should be forced to go to a hospital, group home, or Day Hab, and actually SEE what nature can do. Downs? Yeah right.

[get the red out]

54. Yep, then it is "God's will" that they suffer.

[eridani]

67. And those sociopathic shitstains don't want any of THEIR tax dollars--

--=going to support these precious little blessings.

[Patiod]

72. The idea is that the mothers should put these (hopefully white) babies up for adoption

There's such a demand for healthy white babies.

What should happen to non-white or unhealthy babies? Not sure they care.

[AllyCat]

8. Thank you for posting about this part of the issue

We hear about rape and life of the mother, but I have not seen anyone posting about incest. How tragic this is for the victims in these incidences.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

74. And we all like to think that incest is rare and only takes place in certain places...

...but I have to tell you in my recent training for social work, it is RAMPANT everywhere. It is a cycle that, in some families, it's as normal as eating dinner. Mom, dad, daughter all in bed together. It is sick and it is gross, and it is everywhere. TRAGIC.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. I went round and round years ago with a young man of the

Evangelical persuasion who believed that abortion was wrong in all cases, including rape and incest. I tried and tried to explain to him the suffering that carrying a baby from that kind of union would cause, but he was adamant that life is sacred, no matter how it began. Finally, I gave up in utter frustration.

I hope he never had daughters. Hell, I hope he didn't have sons to pass that line of thinking on to, for that matter.

[SheilaT]

22. I once silence a young right wing religious bigot

when he was baiting me on the topic of abortion by saying, "Caleb. If you don't believe in abortion then don't have one."

He actually said nothing for about thirty seconds, and then said that he would need to think about that.

I don't know if he's ever altered his thinking, but he did stop baiting me on that subject.

[GreenPartyVoter]

23. I don't think that would have worked on this particular guy, but I am glad you

were able to get through!

[SheilaT]

24. My guy was

about thirteen and his bigotry and intolerance was horrifying. I knew him because our kids went to school together and I was (still am) friends with his mother.

I've known that kid since he was four (he'd be about 25 now) and I have NEVER disliked someone that young so very much.

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. Oh dear, so young to be so hateful. The one I was dealing with was i hi mid-20s. I have to ask

is the mum very different? Did this all come from the Dad?

[SheilaT]

34. Both parents are religious conservatives. The father is much more so.

He's the kind who thinks TV shows like Bewitched show actual witchcraft.

The mother is somewhat more sensible. I'm afraid to ask her who she's voting for.

Better yet, they are now divorced. The mom simply grew estranged from her husband and found him less tolerable as time went on.

[GreenPartyVoter]

42. I know the type. I hope she can find her own way of thinking now that she is

out from under his thumb.

[SheilaT]

62. Unfortunately, her background

is religious conservatism.

Her mother, while in that category, was a very interesting person. She was involved in Republican party politics more than 60 years ago, and I learned that she went off and worked on the Dewey campaign in 1948. I learned that in a more or less casual conversation with her about 10 years ago. She has since died, and I kept on telling the daughter to get some kind of oral historian to get that woman's memories down. How absolutely amazing and interesting it was to learn that.

The mother, even though from things the daughter said, was at least as conservative as daughter, she never seemed that way to me when I was with her. It's always hard to know what to think of someone else's prism through which they see others.

In a similar vein, in 2001 we made a family trip to Australia and met up with an internet friend. In the course of the time we spent together, I came to realize that his mother, were she in the U.S. would definitely be a right wing religious person. But in Australia, it simply wasn't that way at all. She had very strong religious beliefs, based on her personal experience, and while she alluded to them, she wasn't about to force them on us. It made it very easy to respect her beliefs. Which is the way it should be.

We all have different personal experiences of the world, which inform our personal world view. We need to learn to simply acknowledge that, and never feel the need to force others to believe as we do.

[ThatsMyBarack]

79. How about this?

"Against abortions? Use a condom!"

[HopeHoops]

12. Men who rape are not just criminals - they're cowards.

[aikoaiko]

14. Yes, that's exactly what they think girls in OTHER families should do.

Some may stick to their principles when it comes to their own, but I suspect make exceptions for their own.

No hard data to back that up, though.

[hamsterjill]

17. This is horrific.

It simply terrifies me the stupid, biological ideas that these Republican men believe. I mean, this is 2012. Did Todd Akin not ever take a biology class?

I agree with your comment. Anyone who would ask a woman in a position like this to actually give birth and make the best of a bad situation has something seriously wrong with their ability to think.

[lavenderdiva]

21. What is frightening is this man is a degreed engineer

which would lead some to believe that he has an analytical mind. Apparently, he was dozing through biology. Which again is frightening, since he is on the Science committee in the Congress.

[heaven05]

20. sadness

personified. oh man! if there is a god, may it bless these victims of human evil.

[TahitiNut]

26. It's so EASY to make such a decision for hundreds or thousands of women

...where each individual decision is heart-wrenchingly difficult under the best of conditions. I'm completely without the power to express the ENORMOUS ARROGANCE of such a stance. It's beyond comprehension. Nonetheless, folks who take this posture are willfully blind to the fact that they COMPOUND a difficult situation and totally DESTROY the unfortunate lives of multiple people in virtually every instance. Like I say, it's an evil that's so HUGE that it cannot even be expressed.

[Frustratedlady]

27. While they are changing the Constitution to force a woman to have a child in the event of rape...

don't forget to add that the male also will be forced to provide ALL the financial support to raise that child and/or take care of any medical expenses for the rest of its life, if it is born with physical/mental defects.

That should take the "starch" out of his intent to rape in the first place. These Repug clowns are more impressed with their money than any mental and physical pain they might inflict on the woman or any spawn they may produce.

Actually, if the woman is forced to have the child in the event of rape, then the man should be forced to be fixed. Just the thought will have him crossing his legs...kind of "akin" to an aspirin between the knees. Pun intended.

[pansypoo53219]

30. funny that the innocent spawn of rape paid dearly after all.

[DonRedwood]

35. Shine the light on it HockeyMom!!

Everyone is too polite to talk about the nuts and bolts that go along with this subject. Thank you for being so graphic. It is painful but necessary for people to see this.

[4th law of robotics]

38. I don't think you'll find much disagreement here

and frankly the circumstances don't matter.

If the woman doesn't want to give birth for whatever reason (not ready, rape/incest, no interest in having kids and BC failed, etc) that is all that matters.

There aren't more or less legitimate reasons for voluntary abortion.

/I say voluntary to distinguish it from what is practiced in China and other places. Obviously that's an entirely different discussion.

[justiceischeap]

49. I completely agree with you but I think the anti-choicer's have bought their own lies

That all women use abortion as birth control when there are probably a handful of women who do so. Just like there are fewer "welfare queens" than there are people who actually need the aid. They build these big lies to denounce what they don't believe in and then they buy their own lies.

[HockeyMom]

61. All contraception FAILS

That is what these religious nuts think. How else do the average woman in the USA have "only" 2 kids? They ABORTED all their siblings. I told one moron that I had 2 kids and never had an abortion becauuse birth control and sterilization does work. Even told him that I am an only child and my Mom used BC back in the 50s. He said we were just "lucky". lol He even said if a MARRIED woman should cross her legs if she (and her husband) don't want more children. Until WHEN? Menopause?

These people belong on another planet.

[kestrel91316]

57. NOBODY wanted to adopt those two Blessings (TM)??? Where were the Christians???

[Tom Ripley]

63. Ted Bundy was one

[LisaL]

64. That's just a rumor.

His father is unknown.

[malaise]

69. Who cares what happened to the mothers

the babies lived