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Sat Jan 26, 2019, 11:19 PM

I think we are missing the most damaging aspects of the shutdown to the right...

And I hope it gets played up.

For years the right, and not just the far right, have derided ‘big government’. You don’t just hear it on hate radio and Fox but commentators on mainstream news.

So we shut down only 1/3 of the government and in 3 weeks all hell starts breaking out. No flights, food inspection, coast guard, farm payments, new wine and beer releases. You get the idea.

I hope we hear some of our representatives pushing this narrative. For almost 40 years, since Reagan, this has been the prevailing narrative. Now we have concrete examples of why that narrative is bullshit.

65 replies, 12115 views

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Reply I think we are missing the most damaging aspects of the shutdown to the right... (Original post)
GulfCoast66 Jan 2019 OP
sheshe2 Jan 2019 #1
DemocracyMouse Jan 2019 #16
sheshe2 Jan 2019 #19
guillaumeb Jan 2019 #31
annabanana Jan 2019 #50
MyOwnPeace Jan 2019 #52
guillaumeb Jan 2019 #61
Blue_true Jan 2019 #54
dragonlady Jan 2019 #64
EarnestPutz Jan 2019 #37
DemocracyMouse Jan 2019 #58
PatrickforO Jan 2019 #42
pangaia Jan 2019 #43
DemocracyMouse Jan 2019 #55
pangaia Jan 2019 #62
DemocracyMouse Jan 2019 #57
LeftInTX Jan 2019 #2
volstork Jan 2019 #20
DBoon Jan 2019 #26
volstork Jan 2019 #3
GulfCoast66 Jan 2019 #5
Hermit-The-Prog Jan 2019 #7
manor321 Jan 2019 #4
delisen Jan 2019 #6
jmowreader Jan 2019 #8
PoindexterOglethorpe Jan 2019 #17
volstork Jan 2019 #22
pangaia Jan 2019 #44
volstork Jan 2019 #49
Perseus Jan 2019 #9
yonder Jan 2019 #14
FakeNoose Jan 2019 #34
volstork Jan 2019 #51
Laura PourMeADrink Jan 2019 #10
GulfCoast66 Jan 2019 #13
calimary Jan 2019 #18
Laura PourMeADrink Jan 2019 #24
pangaia Jan 2019 #53
pangaia Jan 2019 #47
turbinetree Jan 2019 #11
czarjak Jan 2019 #12
orangecrush Jan 2019 #15
yardwork Jan 2019 #21
ancianita Jan 2019 #23
CrispyQ Jan 2019 #25
GulfCoast66 Jan 2019 #27
doompatrol39 Jan 2019 #28
Ferrets are Cool Jan 2019 #29
TwistOneUp Jan 2019 #30
erronis Jan 2019 #36
world wide wally Jan 2019 #32
northoftheborder Jan 2019 #33
world wide wally Jan 2019 #35
nuxvomica Jan 2019 #38
annabanana Jan 2019 #48
Nitram Jan 2019 #39
Mr.Bill Jan 2019 #40
annabanana Jan 2019 #46
CousinIT Jan 2019 #41
annabanana Jan 2019 #45
Honeycombe8 Jan 2019 #56
GoneOffShore Jan 2019 #59
Pepsidog Jan 2019 #60
smirkymonkey Jan 2019 #63
homegirl Jan 2019 #65

Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2019, 11:26 PM

1. You are correct. nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:42 AM

16. Not quite. Let's think deeper, more long term....

We can’t just say “see, big gov is great!”

We must say “Not big gov, but a regenerative infrastructure that promotes a civic economy for all.” A good infrastructure of laws, courts, universal healthcare, properly funded public schools, safety nets, pollution regulation, net neutrality, etc.

Otherwise we fall back into the endless Groundhog Day debates of Socialism vs Capitalism. We must think deeper and get past that stupid dichotomy. It’s not one vs the other, but one WITHIN the other. Sufficient government (as infrastructure) catalyzing a civic economy (small business with true and properly regulated competition, not oligopolies).

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Response to DemocracyMouse (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 02:12 AM

19. Pretty sure the OP covered that.

So we shut down only 1/3 of the government and in 3 weeks all hell starts breaking out. No flights, food inspection, coast guard, farm payments, new wine and beer releases. You get the idea.

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Response to DemocracyMouse (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:35 PM

31. A country of over 325 million cannot have a small government.

That is a libertarian fantasy with no actual evidence to sustain it.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 05:02 PM

50. A big, complicated Country requires a robust, responsive government...

simple and alliterative

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Response to annabanana (Reply #50)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 05:14 PM

52. With somebody intelligent

running it - and the "current one" does not even come close to qualifying!!!!

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Response to annabanana (Reply #50)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 07:38 PM

61. And having a competent electorate requires work. And awareness of the actual issues,

as opposed to voting based on unfounded fear.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #31)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 05:25 PM

54. The interesting thing is "small government" will hurt the people pushing it most.

If the federal government shrank to nothing, blue states would step in to take over it's functions in their state. So, they would have food inspections, air and ground transport regulation, properly funded schools, new product approvals, ect. They will change to return to normal function.

Red states, where the small government insanity is spoken with regularity, will suffer badly. There would be no funds transfer from wealthier blue states, no food inspections, no transport inspections, schools will suck much more than they now do. Blue states will prevent products being made in those states from being sold in largely much wealthier blue states, so red state businesses that now enjoy blue state sales will shrink, along with employment in those states. The situation is largely similar to what would happen if blue citizens split off to form their own country, leaving red citizens in their own country.

Anyone that want small government should spend a year living in Somolia or other places that have a largely non functioning government.

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Response to Blue_true (Reply #54)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 08:52 PM

64. Great point!

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Response to DemocracyMouse (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 02:42 PM

37. Haven't heard the term "regenerative infrastructure" before.

I'm going to be thinking about that and "civic economy" for a while
but feel like I've been on that page for a long time. Nice comment,
Ms. Mouse, well done.

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Response to EarnestPutz (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 06:09 PM

58. Things have gotten so complex on planet Earth...

We need to mold the morass of information into large aggregate clumps of information – an information operating system if you will.

Hence:

All the noise about government, economics, courts, laws, culture, education, roads, hospitals, etc gets grouped into:

Regenerative infrastructure
...........catalyzing.............
>>>>Civic economy<<<<


(not socialism vs capitalism)

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Response to DemocracyMouse (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 04:27 PM

42. I'm with you. The role of government in a market economy is

to mitigate the predatory effects of the capitalist 'primacy of the shareholder' doctrine on the workforce, consumers and environment.

See, if you look at what has happened with national public policy since Ronald Reagan slithered into the White House back in 1981, the New Deal has been steadily undermined with:

Union busting.
Stagnation of wages.
Unsafe working environments.
Deterioration of pension plans.
Excessive means testing in Social Security.
Planned obsolescence engineered into products.
Shrinkage of container size with the same or increased pricing.
Predatory lending practices, pernicious fees, and usurious interest rates.
Consumer safety de-emphasized if the cost of expected litigation is lower than fixing the problem.
Tax policies that essentially transfer money from the public treasury to billionaires and corporate profits (that's what trickle down IS).
Paying merchants of doubt to create faux controversy around health issues and climate issues.
Diluted financial and environmental regulations.

See, THIS is what capitalism is, it's essential nature, and why we need a strong government that works. Remember what Obama told us: Americans don't care what size government is, they want a government that works.

I urge you to support Elizabeth Warren's Accountable Capitalism Act, because that one policy change would make a HUGE difference in our quality of life.

I also urge all of you to support the National Popular Vote Compact, which, if enough states pass it, will circumvent the elitist Electoral College. Had we had that in place in 2016, Clinton would be in the White House right now being a hell of a lot better president than Trump.

Finally, I hope everyone who reads this post will really dig into the truth about monetary, fiscal and social policies. The American people, and the human species in general need social AND economic justice.

Got a big, huge, high-stakes primary coming up, people. Let's be civil and not bloody up the candidates too much. We don't need anyone who refuses to vote for the Democrat that finally wins. That's bullshit. Let's pull together. We can argue more AFTER we sweep the 2020 elections.

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Response to DemocracyMouse (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 04:51 PM

43. No right-winger will have the foggiest idea what ""regenerative infrastructure" means.



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Response to pangaia (Reply #43)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 05:43 PM

55. Good points by all above! Thanks for groking my squawking

... So how ‘bout “infraseeding” Seeding a sustainable, civic economy for all.

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Response to DemocracyMouse (Reply #55)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 07:44 PM

62. Nope. But I have no idea.

It has to be stupidly simple like... MAGA!!!

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Response to pangaia (Reply #43)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 06:00 PM

57. Well, that's because they're so busy "degenerating"....

they can’t understand why the Democrats want to “regenerate” the infrastructure they’ve allowed to “degenerate.”

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2019, 11:28 PM

2. It's like the national debt

They hate it when a Democrat is in charge of it.

We have the same problem in Texas. The republicans are anti government until a municipality passes a non-discrimination ordinance or sick leave ordinance etc. etc. Then the state sues the local government.

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 09:53 AM

20. Repugs want government

small enough to fit inside a uterus.

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Response to volstork (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 12:41 PM

26. they want a government just big enough to protect them from their slaves

nt

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2019, 11:35 PM

3. Charlie Pierce is on it!


Government Has Been 'the Problem' Since Ronald Reagan. Except, Maybe, Until Now.

It was said by more than a few people that the shutdown would prove to be an alpha test for small government. Instead, it became a demonstration that 40 years of that kind of thinking may finally have run out of energy. Without necessarily meaning to do so, those thousands of Americans made the opposite case by standing in all those lines. Without necessarily meaning to do so, those thousands of Americans decided that government was the solution, and not the problem, at least as far as getting from the ticket counter to the jetway.



https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/a26043913/government-shutdown-conservatives-ronald-reagan-air-traffic-control/

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Response to volstork (Reply #3)

Sat Jan 26, 2019, 11:51 PM

5. Wow. Ok. Maybe some are talking it.

Great to see. I just know the next time one of my coworkers laments we need smaller government I have some ammunition.

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Response to volstork (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 12:33 AM

7. my favorite paragraph

Thanks for the link!

My favorite paragraph from the article:

I'm stressing the whole air-traffic business because that's where the long slide toward Trumpism began. When Ronald Reagan broke the controllers' union, he signaled that the federal government was a) open for business, and b) on the side of management, and therefore on the side of capital and not labor, and the Republican Party committed itself to that equation as a matter of faith. Simultaneously, it adopted supply-side economics as its only real policy in that area. And that's where it's been since 1981. Until, I suspect, maybe, now.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sat Jan 26, 2019, 11:48 PM

4. Yes, absolutely

 

At the beginning my Trump-humper coworkers were so excited about the shutdown. They wanted it shutdown for a long time.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 12:25 AM

6. I think there is a new hunger for effective government and

Last edited Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:32 PM - Edit history (1)

few are going to confuse it with Republicanism.

I think you are right, and I think a lot of people were shocked and scared.



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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 12:44 AM

8. The example I use

When your house is burning down, you don't want to discuss small government and the efficiency of the private sector. You want six government employees and a truckload of hoses to show up at your house to put the fire out.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #8)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:45 AM

17. Yes.

Hardly anyone gets that.

People are astonishingly ignorant of what government actually does for all of us. The inclination to condemn the government is pervasive and dangerous.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 10:07 AM

22. You are correct, and

this should be a primary task of Democrats: showing, teaching their constituency the vital role of government in daily life. It is easy to take these things for granted until you realize that almost EVERYTHING you do every day is impacted by government: driving to work, getting the mail, going to the doctor, flying in a plane, turning on a light or faucet. The fact that people don't realize these things is a failure, and by taking control of the narrative that government touches every aspect of life, Democrats can and should show the importance of robust government.

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Response to volstork (Reply #22)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 04:54 PM

44. Jeeze, if government controls all that stuff, it certainly must be too big !

I want to have my freedom and liberty to do what I want.


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Response to pangaia (Reply #44)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 05:02 PM

49. Yes!

I want to plow out a road down to the creek so I can get drinking water, and to sharpen my axe so I can cut down trees in the woods to burn to cook my food and heat my home.

FREEDOM!! Who needs gub'mint?!?! Not me!!!

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 12:46 AM

9. That narrative is not meant to get rid of departments or services

 

The narrative is to convince people that the private sector (them and their billionaire bodies) can run it better. The goal is to take tax payers contributions as their personal bank account. Think about it, everyone has to pay taxes, its a cash cow that never stops, and they want all of that money.

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Response to Perseus (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:36 AM

14. +1. Nailed it, nicely said.

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Response to Perseus (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:44 PM

34. You've just described the oligarchy system that's running Russia now

That's exactly what Cheeto thinks he can have in the USA and the Koch Brothers billionaires are helping him do it. Or maybe it's the other way around - Cheeto is helping the Koch Brothers achieve it.

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Response to Perseus (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 05:05 PM

51. Its like The Church

during the Dark Ages. Peasants and serfs paid almost everything they had in goods and livestock to fat clergy (and lords) who lived like kings while everyone else starved.

They LOVE the feudal system; they've been trying to twist capitalism back into feudalism for centuries...

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 12:48 AM

10. Not sure I am following your point? That the

Right wants a shutdown to shrink govt?

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:28 AM

13. The right had been saying we don't need much government.

And for 3 weeks we all got their wish. And things went to hell.

So next time you hear a right wingers say we really don’t need government much, we point out these 3 weeks.

It totally trashes their argument for the last 40 years. Hell yes we need government. Even bug government!

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 02:03 AM

18. Basically, I think, yes. They hate what they sneer and smear as big government.

Last edited Sun Jan 27, 2019, 11:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Oh the government I hate the government government baaaad sucks awful ick who needs it cut it back and cut it back some more and horrible horrible and how dare they tell us what to do and my freedom-freedom I hate the government
let’s blow it all up and burn it all down and why do we have to have the government and it’s terrible and unamerican and shrink it down so small you can drown it in the bathtub and ...

Okay then! How’s the last month or so been workin’ out for ya, eh? You got your wish! You hate the government and so your precious donald shut it all down. How’d that work out? Happy now? You got your wish. Great stuff, ‘eh? We’re all free free free!

So how’d it work out for ya?

Maybe this turned out to be a VERY useful and instructive exercise. One of those “teachable moments.” Maybe some of these Deplorables needed to learn the hard way. It’s a shame, really. But reality can be a hard taskmaster and a harsh and unmerciful teacher. Reality takes no prisoners. And sometimes it kicks you right in the teeth. Which is what some trump-humpers may have needed. Maybe this nightmare is the kind of thing it takes to get through to some of these bubble-dwellers. Maybe.

But I’m afraid I don’t have a whole lot of confidence that some of them will learn this difficult lesson. And for those really ardent and unreachable trump supporters, I’m afraid I don’t have a whole lot of sympathy. I wish I did. But when the wound is self-inflicted and eagerly embraced despite multiple urgent warnings and all the supporting facts in the world and they STILL think the thing to do is blow it all up and burn it all down, well, maybe this dreadful and entirely avoidable calamity is what WILL happen.

Anybody think they’ll learn anything from this, other than ”in trump we trust”?

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Response to calimary (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 12:00 PM

24. Thanks for explanation. I imagine some learned from it. But, living

in a deep red area of TX now, (generalization here), as long as they get paid, they get their tax return and their mail...they probably felt nothing and had nothing to complain about. Not like they frequent national parks, or travel much by air. In other words, if it doesn't affect me - who cares.

Personally I have always hated the meme that government and government workers suck. If you stop and think - SS works just fine - millions of seniors get their $$ deposited when the government tell you they will. IRS works just fine as well, and you get your refunds. The mail comes every day.

I worked in DC for a couple years - for USDA Forest Service. The computer systems were fast and NEVER down (unlike financial institutions I have had contracts with).

And, people I encountered, government employees, were dependable and diligent. The worst part, to me were the incredibly complex, restrictive, and time consuming policies that had to be followed. A simple change to a procedure took months to go through all the steps and approval hierarchies. And staff from one area can't just help out another area - which seemed crazy to me. I remember a group who was under a deadline and short-handed and next to them were people who literally had nothing to do. Although they wanted to help, they couldn't because of rules/policies.

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Response to Laura PourMeADrink (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 05:22 PM

53. " Although they wanted to help, they couldn't because of rules/policies."

One example of an interesting parallel situation, just one..

If you are unloading musical instruments from a truck to move into Carnegie Hall ( and many other such venues) only the union guys can do it. You usually can not help with the big stuff..

Not a knock on unions,,, just another nuts situation...

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Response to calimary (Reply #18)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 04:57 PM

47. Problem is, most of them were not affected by it at all.



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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:06 AM

11. This libertarian bull has been going on ever since James Buchanan and his band of merry men

decided to enact this crap in the 1950's................this book in my opinion should be the discussion, and in my opinion this is a very good book

Democracy in Chains
THE DEEP HISTORY OF THE RADICAL RIGHT’S STEALTH PLAN FOR AMERICA
By NANCY MACLEAN

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/533763/democracy-in-chains-by-nancy-maclean/9781101980972/

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:15 AM

12. Jodey Arrington is on the House Ways and Means Committee...

Putting a Bushie in charge of America's finances? What could possibly go wrong!

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:39 AM

15. Excellent point!




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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 10:06 AM

21. Yes. Let's hope it lasts.

I was thinking about the National Parks and monuments. When the rangers and other staff get back in there, I think we're going to hear reports of even more damage.

I also think that a lot of people are going to be angry as the next weeks unfold and things don't get right back to normal.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 10:27 AM

23. To me this is the most important idea of the day! Thank you!

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 12:35 PM

25. Why would anyone vote for a candidate who has disdain for government?

We should point out the hypocrisy of candidates who run for government jobs while claiming government is the problem. If you were hiring for your company, would you hire the candidate who tells you they want to shrink your business to the size where they can drown it in a bathtub? No. Then why would you vote for the same?

You, being the generic you, not the personal you.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 12:45 PM

27. Jesus, guns, minorities. I'd guess these are there top 3 reasons

We know it’s not benefits for whites because before the new deal benefits were extended to African Americans white southerners loved them some big government programs.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:05 PM

28. Unfortunately that requires....

 

..proactive rather than reactive media strategy and messaging, and unfortunately our side is not very good at that. Our reaction/response was excellent as it related to the shut down. But now comes the part where we need to use it to our advantage to make points and get messaging out there. And we just don't have as many "strategists" and other non elected types out there in the media to get this done.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:23 PM

29. K and R

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:28 PM

30. The GOP loves these points ...

Limited government
Low taxes
Religious freedom

None of these are workable over the long-term. They're all fallacies. Like the GOP.

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Response to TwistOneUp (Reply #30)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 02:22 PM

36. Not sure the GOP wants true "Religious freedom"

They just want the peons to bow down to whatever icon they say is the current one.

Show your obedience, people. Otherwise off with your heads. Now, for us, not so much.

We can substitute GOP with any terrorist group we want.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:37 PM

32. Another bullshit narrative along with trickle down economics, yet intelligence challenged

Americans keep voting for these criminals.
Let me hear you say, "Duh"

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 01:40 PM

33. K&R

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 02:13 PM

35. Here is the thing about big vs small government and how the RW sells it to voters..

To the voter, they talk about small annoying things like motorcycle helmet laws, leash laws, filing income taxes and things like that.
But to the corporations and wealthy, what they want are no environmental laws, no banking laws, or bigger taxes on greater income. So, they are talking on two different levels, but Republican voters cannot comprehend that. Instead, they think "yeah, all regulation is bad and all government is bad....unless I need it personally"

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 02:47 PM

38. the problem has a name: "submergence"

It's easy to criticize government services because the better they operate, the less noticeable they become. As a result, the more pinheaded among us think government is unnecessary. We only seem to appreciate what government does for us when it stops doing it. I have heard this brought up on some talk programs but it should be reiterated even more, and consistently. Many stupid people also don't understand that the rich and corporations need to pay far more in taxes than the rest of us because they get far more benefits from government than we do. They make far greater use of infrastructure (how rich could Bezos be without roads?), the courts, the foreign service, etc. If the top marginal rate were 70%, it would still be a giveaway.

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Response to nuxvomica (Reply #38)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 04:58 PM

48. Kind of like "women's work".. you know, the boring, maintenance kind of stuff.

No ribbon cuttings, no headlines..

Honored only in the breach.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 03:18 PM

39. The Washington Post has reported on this aspect of the damage to the GOP.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 03:27 PM

40. If government is the problem,

why do so many republicans want to be in charge of it?

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #40)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 04:57 PM

46. Clearly, to screw it up. . . .n/t

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 04:14 PM

41. national parks destroyed, HUD payments halted, etc. n/t

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 04:56 PM

45. "Big, Complicated Country needs Robust, Responsive Government"

You need soundbites.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 05:49 PM

56. Yeah...I always push back on that argument.

It's something only idiots believe in. When they say that, I remind how people always complain having to wait on hold to speak with a federal agency, or getting documents a day later than they wanted, or not having a local agency office to go to in person. All things that are caused by the budget. If Republicans get what they want, we'd have longer waits and fewer agency offices, longer wait times for interstate signs to be updated, and on and on. How about fewer and fewer books and electronic documents and videos in the libraries, since they are often among the first to be cut.

We all rely on the federal (and other) governments for essential services.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 06:15 PM

59. I posted about this earlier in the week. These people want to eliminate 'the state'.

Because ,'The state should not be seen to work. If the state is seen to work, we shall never be rid of it.'
This has been the position of Republicans since the days of Herbert Hoover (Eisenhower being a remarkable exception).
Look back at the lunacy of Grover Norquist et. al.
They don't want 'the state', they want oligarchy.
For a different take read '60 Million Frenchmen Can't Be Wrong', particularly the chapters on how government is viewed in France.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 06:20 PM

60. Great point.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 07:52 PM

63. K&R

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Original post)

Sun Jan 27, 2019, 10:57 PM

65. WHEN AIRLINE GROSS RECEIPTS DROP 5%

in three weeks we can be sure Donny was getting calls from Captains of Industry clamoring for an immediate end to the shutdown.

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