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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsMy opinion of Vanessa Tyson's allegation against Justin Fairfax
I've always thought that the following factors would help the cause of a sexual assault victim.
1) Filling a police report
2) Did she sustain injuries during the alleged assault?
3) If the alleged victim chose not to file a police report, did she text friends not long after the encounter?
4) Did the alleged victim speak out against the alleged aggressor before he became famous?
In her statement, Ms. Tyson made it clear that she did not file a police report.
She makes it clear that she "first began telling friends about the assault" after learning that Mr. Fairfax was running for Lieutenant Governor in 2017.
In light of the absolute absence of proof or contemporaneous corroboration, I cannot believe Ms. Tyson at this point.
I would support Fairfax for Governor of Virginia.
Update: Fairfax says she stayed in touch with him for months after the incident. Tyson didn't say that in her statement, but if it's true, I will change my opinion from "I don't see evidence" to "She's straight up lying"
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The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)She didn't file a police report, sustain injuries, text friends (texting wasn't an option then, but she didn't tell anyone for years), or speak out before he became famous, either. Do we believe or not believe accusers on the basis of the politics of the alleged perpetrator?
Bonx
(2,053 posts)And it's (D)isgusting.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)As far as we know, Fairfax's wasn't.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)but the OP didn't list other behavior of the alleged perp as a factor - just the lack of corroborating evidence, which was the case in both situations.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Did you read her statement? No requirement to wait until 'her' is a 'them'.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)At the time it happened, she was already working with victims of sexual violence, having been sexually assaulted by her father till he went to prison when she was 8. But she suppressed her memory of the alleged event with Fairfax till she saw his photo during the 2017 election.
I don't know what to think, so I'm reserving judgement. If other victims of his come forward, like they did with Ford, that will help make things clearer.
LisaM
(27,806 posts)I am very interested in hearing if anything more emerges regarding that.
I'm reserving judgement too - nothing is ever what it seems these days, but I do know that rushing to judgement hasn't been a good look for anyone recently. And there's no real need to do so; better proceed cautiously and get it right.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)That seems odd, if true, and if he had raped her.
LisaM
(27,806 posts)At this point, my inclination is to go slow and make sure the real facts come out, and if they implicate Fairfax, so be it. We seem to be on a 24-hour of cycle of accuse, try, convict, which I'm just not comfortable with. A few weeks makes almost no difference at this point.
In fact, it was the rush to get Kavanaugh through that screwed up that whole thing. There was no real rush.
kcr
(15,315 posts)
brush
(53,776 posts)assaulted herself and suppressed her memory of the alleged Fairfax assault until she saw his campaign photo in 2017—hmmm?
Born at night but not last hignt.
Bonx
(2,053 posts)
Yosemito
(648 posts)Not because of anything sexual.
demmiblue
(36,845 posts)Yosemito
(648 posts)Tell me when I accused kavanaugh of sexual assault. Then you can call me a hypocrite or whatever you want.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Kavanaugh's jurisprudence should have disqualified him.
The GOP wold much rather roll in the mud, though.
So he was challenged on their terms.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Brett K denied that he knew her or was ever in that situation. This situation is more like Keith Ellison.
theboss
(10,491 posts)And we just dismissed those for ….. I honestly don't know why.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)seemed to be on the accuser who had had a consensual sexual relationship with him.
Charlotte Little
(658 posts)Where did you ascertain that there were two?
And the reason the first accuser was ignored is that she changed her story about the video she claimed she had. She was also claiming "emotional abuse."
I'm sorry, but I'm not about to jump on the bandwagon of those wanting to ruin careers over a bad breakup or "Narcissistic Abuse." This woman was living in this man's house and they had a fight. Unless she is willing to show the video she claims proves she's telling the truth, it's shut case.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/us/keith-elllison-karen-monahan.html
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)who said he, in front of other witnesses, stuck his penis in her face. Other people corroborated her story of what happened at Yale. Ford also told people over the years, well before Kavanaugh was up for SCOTUS.
Tyson said she "suppressed" her memory till she saw the photograph of him in the election. That means that all those years while she was counseling rape victims (she had gotten involved because she had been sexually assaulted by her father as a child), she suppressed that memory.
kcr
(15,315 posts)When the attack happened. For another, she did tell others, including a therapist. And she didn't claim she'd repressed the memories, only to have them come back when she saw him running.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)also other allegations about Kavanaugh besides hers. She also offered a witness to the attack, and though the witness did not corroborate her story, his running away from making any statements spoke pretty loudly.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)Tyson's encounter with Fairfax occurred in 2004.
That doesn't mean that Dr. Tyson's story isn't true. But the women and the times they were operating in were very different.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)whether there was any corroboration. There are many other factors in both situations, and there always will be. IMO the OP's criteria were too narrow and placed too heavy a burden on the complainant. I believed both Dr. Ford and Keith Ellison because of factors other than direct corroboration, but I'm not sure whom to believe in this case.
theboss
(10,491 posts)Can we all be honest? Seriously?
We didn't like Kavanaugh. And Ford was credible.
We apparently like Fairfax. And Tyson is credible. But I guess that just cancels each other out.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)to know how to handle a sexual assault while a grown, highly educated woman (especially one trained in this field) is much better equipped to manage such a situation, so comparing what they did in the aftermath of an assault is a faulty measure.
theboss
(10,491 posts)The last few years just have not happened I guess.
pnwmom
(108,977 posts)of sexual violence for years (having been assaulted by her father as a child), yet she is saying now that she immediately suppressed her memory of what Fairfax did to her and didn't remember it again till 2017.
I'm reserving judgment on this one. Unless she can come up with more evidence, like a pattern of other women he mistreated, there just isn't enough here to take one side or the other.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Why don't you tell us what the "tells" are when you think a woman isn't credible?
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11785900
And before you go there... this is not about Vanessa Tyson, it's about your own statements concerning #metoo.
58Sunliner
(4,386 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)I wasn't commenting on whether or how a woman fends off a rapist. Read the comments I responded to understand before making incorrect assumptions about my point. Context matters in discussions involving multiple people and comments.
irresistable
(989 posts)She liked him well enough to say that kissing him was consensual.
She was stunned by what he did next.
"Managing a situation" where someone forces their private parts into your mouth is something you find out if you can handle in the moment.
Having someone that you liked and worked with suddenly do that would be devastating.
I am appalled by what I am seeing here.
BTW, she told quite a few of her friends about this before she contacted the Washington Post.
bpj62
(999 posts)First off you have been on multiple posts attacking anyone who has any sort of opinion that is different than yours. You are making discussions very difficult.
Brett Kavanaugh had a history of abusive behavior that was hidden over the years by his friends and associates. Not only was Ford only 15 at the time but she was trapped in a room with two boys. She was completely unprepared for that assault and she also said that she was reluctant to say anything because there was alcohol at the party and she didnt want to get in trouble. Kavanaughs writings and the accounts from his classmates in college show a pattern of alcohol abuse followed by boorish behavior.
Fairfax and Tyson have both said that everything prior to the alleged assault was consensual. According to the Washington Post they could not find any allegations of sexual impropriety in Fairfax past either before or after the incident. Oh and by the way I am not accusing her of lying I was not in that room that night so I cannot make that judgment.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Are you claiming we have to decide this case that way because the Kav case was precedent?
There are differences in credibility - we haven't even gotten a chance to evaluate the witnesses in this case - don't know if there is even a forum to decide.
No one elected is forced to resign. Whereas Kav had not been appointed yet. That makes Kav's situation more precarious right there. Different burden.
theboss
(10,491 posts)I totally am. Because how can you have any consistency?
treestar
(82,383 posts)to figure out. Ford has not been making out with Kav at all.
It is still open, as the credibility and demeanor of the two of them is not as available as for Kav and Ford. We have paper statements only.
We don't have to find every case to be either/or. Each case is different. Because we believed Ford does not mean we are honor bound to believe Tyson, because we always have to either believe the woman or the man in every case!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)If one wants to equate taking each circumstance as an individual incident with "making it up as you go," one is only speaking for oneself.
Equating someone disagreeing with one, with being "inconsistent" doesn't lead to any productive dialogue.
If someone wanted productive dialogue, one should go about it differently.
lame54
(35,287 posts)It was Kavanaugh's lies that sealed the deal
Had Kavanaugh been credible it would have been hard to know who was lying
ooky
(8,922 posts)Fairfax should go on in his job, or to the Governor's mansion when Northam resigns.
Both situations lack proof. In our system we need evidence regardless of our politics. Just saying someone did something isn't enough.
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)and I think people are showing their true partisan colors.
It's exactly the same thing as Christine Blassey Ford.
If we only believe women when it's politically expedient, then I think women should burn it all down and start all over again.
at140
(6,110 posts)But in today's bitterly divided political situation it is just too hard to avoid prejudice.
You are better than me. I will be honest and say that I concluded BK was guilty
Immediately after finding out he is on the extreme right side of spectrum.
Dorian Gray
(13,493 posts)I'm a woman who has suffered through quite a few vulnerable moments with the opposite sex, so I'm approaching it from this way. (Most women and many men have been in my position.)
I don't know enough to convict Fairfax. But the accusations are out there, she's hired a lawyer and I'm not going to fully defend him or say it's a hit job from her, either. I"m open to learning more. Absolutely. But I also have knee-jerk reactions against people's knee-jerk reactions defending someone who has been accused at the detriment to the accuser. And I TRULY believe that people who would defend someone bc he's on the Democratic side of the political spectrum while shutting down the female accuser isn't a true friend of women.
Is there middle ground? Sure. Let this play out.
But Virginia politics seems to be a hot bed of WTF right now.
brush
(53,776 posts)and friends years before.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)Ford did not tell anybody for many years (and that suggests only that she was afraid to say anything, which is common and not especially probative). My intent was not to cast aspersions on anyone but just to point out that we need to apply the same (fair) standards to everyone, irrespective of politics. Obviously there are other factors in both cases that the OP didn't address, such as whether there were claims by other people or some other pattern of bad behavior on the part of the accused; I think the OP imposed too much of a burden of proof on the accuser - especially by asking whether the accuser was injured.
brush
(53,776 posts)
Chemisse
(30,811 posts)Additionally, her concern was for the far-reaching decisions that would be made by a Supreme Court justice for decades to come.
The governor of Virginia is not going to have unimpeded power for the rest of his life, which makes her purpose in coming forward seem more like vengeance than saving the nation from calamity.
treestar
(82,383 posts)We don't have to make up our minds here until the accuser speaks in person - Ford was a very good witness.
Brett has yearbook problems too - there were indications of his low value for women. His demeanor was terrible and he was a bad witness. No chance to evaluate Fairfax yet.
Other stories came out indicating Brett has a problem treating women like humans rather than sex objects.
The friend was there and did not contradict Ford completely.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)Each case is going to be different; we can't conclude anything without uncovering as many facts as possible, and without those facts assuming the best of someone whom we like politically and assuming the worst of someone we don't.
Loki Liesmith
(4,602 posts)Were substantive enough to bar Kavanaugh from office.
As far I’m concerned if there isn’t corroborative or other evidence I’m generally opposed to acting on these allegations.
Kavanaugh disqualified himself on the basis of his jurisprudence and his conspiracy mongering re: the Clintons. There was plenty of evidence of that.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)from apparently having spent his youth pickled in beer, and irrespective of accusations of sexual misconduct.
ProfessorPlum
(11,256 posts)for one.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)know either party, but neither seems to me to be a bad person.
An investigation should take place. If there is no proof other than her allegation and if there are no events since the alleged incident that suggest he is a man who would do such a thing - and it does seem there are no more allegations - we should treat her with utmost respect, but we should not call for his resignation.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... that has it to read and they want a dollar. We already subscribe to the NYT and Boston Globe.
Yosemito
(648 posts)madville
(7,410 posts)I believe both of them equally. It is also possible both believe they are telling the truth based on their old memories.
theboss
(10,491 posts)Because that's his defense to the letter.
Yosemito
(648 posts)Nice try. Why would you think that I wanted Kavanaugh to be a Supreme Court Judge?
theboss
(10,491 posts)I'm not following.
Yosemito
(648 posts)Go delete your comment asking if I support Kavanaugh. Or clarify it.
theboss
(10,491 posts)I guess I hate Roe v Wade because I didn't talk about dorms.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Which yours was.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)LAS14
(13,783 posts)... make their statement and respond to questions. Then it would come down to "Who do you believe?" Without that first hand experience we're handicapped. Each statement, on its own, is compelling. So someone had a really good writer help them out.
Since we can't get more facts (apparently), I think we have to do nothing.
I hope the #MeToo movement encourages victims of sexual assault to speak out very early. I'm not sure that will be sufficient, but it will help.
Yosemito
(648 posts)I wouldn't like my chances if I were a prosecutor.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)brush
(53,776 posts)Only one against Fairfax, and none before or since.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)And yes there's no evidence before or after. This is why a law enforcement investigation would be helpful.
maxrandb
(15,324 posts)But at some point we have to stop saying; "I understand that the victim didn't want to file a police report".
I'm sorry, but I think we've gotten to the point that we can stop excusing people for not reporting these incidents when they happen, not 15-20 years later.
If we are going to use these accusations to destroy people's lives, folks need to report them when it happens.
This is 2019. No more excuses for not reporting.
theboss
(10,491 posts)No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.
Why don't we give the right-wing another tool to oppress women?
I know, if you can't decide to abort in 90 days, you ran out of time. Sorry. It's 2019. We have the technology to know everything by then.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)She has an attorney, an excellent attorney. She needs to file a police report and let an investigation be done.
theboss
(10,491 posts)What's going to happen?
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)30, 25, 20 years old. I believe the case he was convicted on was 12 years old.
If you believe nothing can happen then you should be asking why she brought it up 15 years later.
OnDoutside
(19,956 posts)58Sunliner
(4,386 posts)maxrandb
(15,324 posts)also a graduate of the Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute.
We have serious issues with sexual assault and harassment in the Navy. Imagine that.
We instituted some fantastic programs. The SAPR Program which changed the way reports of sexual assault were handled, offering legal, medical and confidential support. Designating and assigning Victim Advocates that were extensively trained in their responsibilities. SAPR also allowed for victims to make "Restricted" (private), or "Unrestricted" (open) complaints.
We saw an increase in sexual assaults after instituting these programs. That indicated that these programs were successful. The increase in sexual assaults was NOT because more were happening (they have actually been on the decline in the military)...it was because more people were coming forward to report sexual assault and harassment.
I fully understand the reluctance for victims to come forward. They may have several valid reasons to do so. I also understand that we should not destroy peoples lives when an accusation is made.
As an officer, I conducted multiple counselling sessions. Fitness Report counselling, some good-some bad. Disciplinary counselling. Counselling to just get to know my Sailors and what was going on in their lives. I was once told by a senior officer that I shouldn't conduct one-on-one counselling with female Sailors behind closed doors...don't be alone with a woman Sailor...have someone with you.
I told him that was bullshit. If I could have a difficult conversation with male Sailors, I surely was not going to treat my female Sailors differently.
Here's the thing. We are destroying people's lives based on allegations. I don't think that is how justice is supposed to work. That's not justice...that's vengeance.
A lot of the stigma associated with reporting sexual assault no longer exists. Not all, but quite a bit of the valid reasons that prevented sexual assault victims from coming forward simply don't exist anymore. There must be some accountability for the accusers, shouldn't there?
People are demanding Fairfax be sacrificed on the altar of purity. What if he is innocent? Within a minute of this accusation coming out, folks were demanding that his life be ruined. If you're going to ruin someone's life, maybe we should have more than a "he said-she said" accusation.
There's been no investigation.
There's been no finding of facts.
Wouldn't the situation be better if the victim had immediately reported the incident to someone?
There is quite a difference between taking an accusation seriously, and demanding the head of the accused.
I have to ask myself, what would I do...what would happen to me if someone made an accusation against me from 10-15-20-25 years ago that I know is NOT true?
Would people demand my head on a pike?
So yes, I am a male. Believe it or not, not ALL victims of sexual assault are women.
Does my maleness preclude me from having and voicing an opinion.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)That.
hueymahl
(2,495 posts)underthematrix
(5,811 posts)EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)While there surely are instances when a woman won't want to or feels she can't report, the reasons for not reporting are less compelling now than they were 30 years ago.
And the #MeToo movement is - or should - not be just about encouraging women to come forward years after the fact to tell their stories. It also must be about encouraging women to speak their truth in real time - and to help them feel safe to do so and to help ensure that they will be listened to and taken seriously (which does not believe that every single woman who makes an allegation must be believed simply by virtue of the fact that she's a woman making an allegation).
maxrandb
(15,324 posts)The Me Too movement should be about empowering victims of sexual assault...male and female... to come forward and declare that they don't have to put up with that shit anymore!
I wish it was around back in the late sixties.
ecstatic
(32,701 posts)I learned that over 25 years ago in the 5th grade during a required sexual harassment lesson in our health class. The first step is to say, No, this isn't cool. Stop. To smile along, accept whatever benefit comes with staying silent, and then bring it up 20 years later doesn't work for me. And guess what? Saying STOP or NO works in many cases. If you don't say anything, you have not set your boundaries. Just MHO.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)maxrandb
(15,324 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)posts show clearly that you do not.
maxrandb
(15,324 posts)You fucking don't.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)You say above that, due to your Navy program, the incidence of reported rapes increased. You saw that as a victory because it didn't mean that the incidence of rapes went up, but because the reporting of rapes went up.
I wonder: if the incidence of rapes went down due to your program, would you have billed that as a failure? Or would that also have been a victory because the incidence of rapes went down?
Was there a numbers scenario that you would have seen as proof that your programs were not working?
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)and harassment.
Part of my responsibility was to help them assess and restructure their processes for reporting and handling such incidents. After we got rid of the bad actors, brought in decent, sensitive people, changed the investigation and reporting process, etc., we found the number of incidents reported spiked. We were warned that this would happen if we were doing things right and our analysis showed that, indeed, just a Max referenced, this did not mean there were more occurrences but that people felt more comfortable reporting them and the institution had an improved method for tracking, following up on and resolving them. Shortly thereafter, the numbers began to tick down steadily until they were much lower than they were previously, a sure sign that our new, improved processes were working.
So, I don't think Max is trying to claim credit unduly - what he's describing is a very common phenomenon in this field.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)My opinion is that, as it looks now, Fairfax should survive an investigation and not resign. But this thread is making me ill.
maxrandb
(15,324 posts)You could see the reports of incidents declining, but you would see an increase in incidents when you get the results of your command climate survey and command assessment team results.
That would indicate that people saw your reporting process as bogus, not confidential and basically a feel good exercise that did little to change the culture and stigma of coming forward.
What a win, if you could call it that, would be is an increase in reporting AND a command climate assessment that showed people understood the process and found it effective, AND conveyed that their belief was that their incident report would be handled properly.
I have some personal experience with abuse, so I do understand....no... I've lived the reluctance to come forward.
at140
(6,110 posts)Because then law enforcement has much better chance to gather evidence.
Otherwise after many years go there is no chance of finding physical evidence.
Then it is mostly he said she said.
And if the victim surfaces only when the accused is in some major news cycle,
It becomes even more difficult to reach a valid judgement.
58Sunliner
(4,386 posts)My opinion of your opinion? Who gives a shit?
Yosemito
(648 posts)Just imagine if those were the standards.
Can you imagine if I could never state my opinion because I was never raped.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)allegations or made it so hard on the women that the women just walked away and remained silent. Today, any police Cheif or sheriff that runs a department that ignore sexual assault allegations or bend investigations to favor prominent men might as well starts learning another job, if they can get another job. My advice to women today that get sexually assaulted by anyone is report it to police immediately and force them to perform a thorough investigation. Sexual harrassment should be reported to Human Resources and women should retain an outside lawyer and let HR know that they have.
theboss
(10,491 posts)Because rape is still not taken seriously in far too many places by far too many people.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)You actually proved my point by bring that up, though that was not your intention. In today's world, hell yes I believe what I wrote. And it is about time that the situation changed to where it should have been all along.
theboss
(10,491 posts)That case matters because it was years worth of totally abhorrent behavior that frankly only blew up once it entered the sports media. The message was that if you let rapists run rampant on a Baptist college campus for four or five years, we might eventually make you take a job at Southern Mississippi.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)theboss
(10,491 posts)Some desperate school will do it.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)Will lose their jobs before Briles loses his. That is the way that it works and should have long ago worked.
Nothing changes people for the better like fear of consequences.
maxrandb
(15,324 posts)BTW - A friend of my older brother abused me for about a year when I was 10-11 years old. Please don't tell me I don't understand.
regnaD kciN
(26,044 posts)...when a young single woman would never pursue rape charges, because it would amount to publicly admitting that you were no longer a virgin, and thus being seen as “damaged goods” if not an outright slut.
I’d like to think that times have changed in that regard, but I doubt that’s true in all areas of the country or among all sub-cultures here.
And I certainly don’t think that’s helped when the reaction to Ms. Tyson’s story from some here is “well, she willingly came up to his room and kissed him…what was she expecting would happen?”
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I think the consensus on Northam is a lot more uniform.
Only two people know what happened in the Fairfax situation. That is what make it so difficult. I honestly think that as a rule a man should ask for explicit permission for sex acts when dealing with an SO, regardless of their status with that SO. It is entirely that Fairfax thought that he had permission when he didn't, it is also possible that he forced himself on the women and she was fearful of resisting. So many possibilities. I would hope that Fairfax, if he did overstep boundaries and know that, would own up to that, but I also understand why he may not want to - political future gone, job with prestigious or any law firm gone, other job opportunities gone. It is easy for me to sit and say that he should do the right thing, but I honestly don't know what choices I would make if facing the same future he is facing if the allegations are true.
Eyeball_Kid
(7,431 posts)Tyson declares that she was sexually assaulted by an adult until the age of eight. This is a significant admission because it increases the likelihood that she was traumatized at a very early age.
We know from clinical research that those who are sexually traumatized will tend to both under react AND overreact to sexual experiences later in life if their previous trauma hasn’t been fully resolved. Because she could very well have been emotionally damaged by her early experiences, her ability to feel in control of her circumstances as an adult could have been significantly compromised, which, if accurate, could have led to a misperception of an episode with Fairfax many years ago.
This is serious business that cannot be superfluously assessed or judged.
brush
(53,776 posts)have triggered hser memory long before seeing Fairfax's campaign photo, considering her history and the field she worked in?
Eyeball_Kid
(7,431 posts)But events that trigger a kind of PTSD reaction can be subtle and undetectable to the observer. The risk of a misperception is always present.
LexVegas
(6,060 posts)
LuckyCharms
(17,425 posts)a sexual assault?
Thank you.
Response to LuckyCharms (Reply #77)
Squinch This message was self-deleted by its author.
LuckyCharms
(17,425 posts)My apologies if I am incorrect...getting very drowsy and having trouble following this thread. 
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Yosemito
(648 posts)Since when are males and people who haven't been raped excluded from juries?
LuckyCharms
(17,425 posts)if you choose not to answer, that's fine with me.
My point is that you seem to have several "suggestions" for victims of rape/sexual assault. You want victims to apply a set of standards to a chaotic, hurtful, embarrassing, violent and dangerous situation.
You have a nice list of what you think would help them, and what you think would strengthen their case.
You cannot apply nice lists to traumatic and possibly life threatening situations, and you cannot make suggestions like this without putting yourself in the victim's shoes first.
It's kind of like telling the victim of a drive-by shooting what they should have done to prevent it, without knowing the entire circumstance.
Try asking a man or woman who was anally raped by their father's best friend why they didn't file a police report, or why they didn't resist, or why they don't have any apparent physical injuries. Then, when they tell you why, tell them that their case isn't strong enough.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)with some seriously embarrassing shit in it.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)In the bad old days the survivor had to have had the shit beat out of her to prove she was telling the truth.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,683 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)It was 1976. I don't remember why I was there or all the specific facts. I do remember I was there with a couple of friends and the police brought in a young woman who had just been raped. She was pretty bruised up. I don't know how I learned that fact either. I just remember feeling really sad.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)I pose to myself the same question of this that I did of Ford... "Why would she lie?" If I can't answer that question reasonably then I am inclined to believe her... whoever she is and whoever she is accusing. To ignore the social stigma attached to coming forward with something like this is to abandon our ideals in favor of political opportunism.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)I'm distraught. It's much easier when the accused is a political opponent and not a friend. Ugh, I'm just distraught.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... this thread that discusses the reliability of memory. I find the core event in her report to be something that might lend itself to morphing memory, for both the man and the woman. I'm coming to the conclusion that we just can't take action based on uncorroborated memories after a significant amount of time has elapsed. That is, in the absence of other evidence such as Brett Kavanaugh supplied.
Here's the thread.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=11784894
Ms. Toad
(34,069 posts)Filing a police report is rare
Physical injuries - especially between family/acquaintance rape - are rare
Some women tell others - many choose to remain silent because (1) nearly all women blame themselves on some level - because society tells us we are to blame; the prevalence of self-blame is higher withim acquaintance rape than othesiwe - this leads to a fair amount of (2) shame - and you don't generally broadcast shame, and (3) this particular woman was already a survivor - she may well have experience with negative reations from friends and relatives and may well choose not to repeat that experience.
As to the last - if you're trying to forget it, why would you? Depending on the nature of the fame, she may sell have (and her statement suggests she has) have decided to puther own self-interests aside because she feared what having her rapist in a position of power might mean for otehr women. She is not in Virginia - but when she learned he was rising up through the ranks to Lt. Governor, she shared her information friends still in Virginia so that the information might be used privately to divert what she perceived to be an inappropriate position for Fairfax to hold.
Response to Yosemito (Original post)
UniteFightBack This message was self-deleted by its author.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)Delete this please we are better than this.
Response to jcgoldie (Reply #92)
UniteFightBack This message was self-deleted by its author.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... but are unwilling to share? If your answer is "fear of injury or fear for one's life," then let me re-state the question. How does a man force oral sex from a woman short of threatening her with violence?
Response to LAS14 (Reply #100)
jcgoldie This message was self-deleted by its author.
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)No need to beat her up over it.
HipChick
(25,485 posts)but also had this question too? And she kept in touch with him as well afterwards?
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts).
HipChick
(25,485 posts)Let's see who has records
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)So why would she lie?
Squinch
(50,949 posts)give oral sex.
I think the answer with Fairfax is to have the hearing and see if there is any corroboration or proof. If not, he stays.
And if anyone is really wondering, a woman can be forced to give oral sex if the threat or implication of serious harm is held over her when the demand is made.
LAS14
(13,783 posts).... I saw the possibility of a helpful 3 way conversation. I'm like UniteFightBack in that psychological intimidation just doesn't rate with me as a reason to let oneself be raped. But I have to admit that it's because I don't understand it. It's a failure of imagination on my part. You seem to understand it. What do you think of the idea of focusing on getting women to "unite, fight back." If strength or weaponry isn't in play, don't let him do it.
I treat workplace intimidation as a whole separate category, a legal thing like black mail. We need to out all the perpetrators of male privilege with solidarity.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)To say that a person can't be coerced into sex by any means other than the immediate threat of physical violence ignores all psychological research to the contrary. It seems like pure political expediency in this case to make that argument.
I deleted my prior response because I thought I overreacted, then I thought I didn't, whatever. I see a lot of people making very insensitive and simplistic arguments here that I don't think have a place on DU and border very closely on victim shaming or just plain misogyny.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)... for holding my opinion is not pure political expediency. I've experienced this lack of understanding for psychological pressure in all sorts of situations.
LAS14
(13,783 posts)a puzzle. I just can't picture it.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #98)
UniteFightBack This message was self-deleted by its author.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Presumably they don't bite the rapist's penis off out of fear they will get the shit beat out of them. I presume a woman in a similar situation would have the same fear.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)it if she lets it happen.
Because, you know, if she's not dead or injured, she didn't fight back hard enough.
This thread is making me sick. It's like some republican convention on sexual assault from the early 60s. 3..2..1 till someone asks what she was wearing.
And I'm someone who is thinking we should have an investigation, but at this point I am thinking it is unlikely I will be one who is calling for Fairfax's resignation.
Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Reply #109)
UniteFightBack This message was self-deleted by its author.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)In your scenario would you be more likely to believe the survivor if her assailant broke all her teeth?
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)can't really go on here. I'm self deleting and back to lurking. Take Care.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)you by a hundred pounds if he forced you to fellate him?
Response to Squinch (Reply #115)
UniteFightBack This message was self-deleted by its author.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)wanted it to happen.
That's the point you're making, right?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Most accounts of survivors suggest they just want it over as soon as possible.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)attack.
The ignorance floating around here is stunning.
The other ignorance is this "we just roll over on every accusation." I don't think anyone is saying to do that with Fairfax.
Fairness means she gets a hearing. If she has any corroboration or proof, then we think about his resignation. If not, we don't.
jcgoldie
(11,631 posts)This argument is terrible. What is the point? You don't think that anyone can be coerced if not at gunpoint? This is some backwards rightwing "legitimate rape" nonsense.
Response to Squinch (Reply #118)
UniteFightBack This message was self-deleted by its author.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)Your words: "Can someone explain how a man forces a woman to give oral sex?"
You are implying that a man cannot force a woman to give oral sex. And you state that you really don't think you could be forced, even when faced with an attacker who outweighs you by a hundred pounds. So what, exactly, do YOU think you are saying about those woman who "allow" themselves to be forced?
theboss
(10,491 posts)My thread on us not really liking women? I have no regrets.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)
EllieBC
(3,014 posts)how a wife can be raped by her husband? How a superior can force one he supervises to have sex with him without raising a hand in physical force?
I don’t want to believe that you were born yesterday but it’s believe that or think you are someone who believes that a woman who is not physically forced or who doesn’t fight back wanted it. And I don’t want to think anyone here feels that way.
Response to EllieBC (Reply #123)
UniteFightBack This message was self-deleted by its author.
Joe941
(2,848 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Found holes and discrepancies in her story which they clarified with a denial?
In a he said she said all you have to go on is little clues to veracity
That said, only two people know the truth. And we aren't either of them
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)5. And in her own official statement, at no time did she say "NO" despite by her own admission she was neither drugged nor too intoxicated to refuse.
6. She said her official statement would be the only one about the night in question, which means no follow-up questions or discussion, and that screams "My story won't hold up under scrutiny or follow-up questions."
7. Shopping her story to a far-right blog after getting turned down by the WaPo is bad optics at best and pure ratfucking at worst...
“The Post carefully investigated the claim for several months. After being presented with facts consistent with the Lt. Governor’s denial of the allegation, the absence of any evidence corroborating the allegation, and significant red flags and inconsistencies within the allegation, the Post made the considered decision not to publish the story.”
8. The timing of this whole thing is highly suspect...
EffieBlack
(14,249 posts)so she can still file a criminal complaint.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I'll watch how it plays out. But I get it... it's a hard thing to say one way or the other, and I can't really begrudge anyone holding one or the other opinion about it.
Thankfully (in my case) it's merely an academic/ethical exercise, as VA is as far from my home as CA is, and any decisions I (eventually) make are without any consequence.
